Official OPPO BDP-83 Owner's Thread [technical talk only] - Page 759

I intend that during the reproduction ( either the music at the start of Kill Bill 1 ..) there are clipping and "blouuugh ...polp ...criiiss... blooop" like sound over it ...
Do you know the effect when you play an Audio disc that is ruined and drops even with the works of the player error correction routine ??



Edit:

Wish to add...

This trick/bug, could be useful if it should works in all releases where is there an uncompressed multichannel PCM ... but it works only on few titles...

For example:
There are some releases ( e.i. Sleepy Hollow and Dei Hard 3, by Cecchi Gori Home Video distribution ) that have only the PCM 5.1 uncompressed track and no one lossy track like DTS or DD.
This kind of releases in layout with a Player without analogic outs ( like PS3) and AVR without Hdmi input force you to listen at it in PCM Stereo only !!!

Too much DNR must be fixed at the source, that is, the studio must remaster the title properly.
I also think ,comparing to another BR player, that the OPPO is not showing as much detail as it should, that is why the lack of film grain becomes even more noticeable (provided the movie had film grain as an artistic choice by its makers) in the OPPO.
So contrary to what you're requesting I think OPPO should provide more detail so we can actually have a more film like (grain included) presentation.
Just my take of course.

Your right picture looks strange to me if you said OPPO is set to DSD for SACD. You should get MULTI DSD. Unless you turn MATRIX ON the denon in which case the receiver will do a DSD->PCM conversion and show MULTI CH IN. So do you have MATRIX turned to ON (to get 7.1 out of the DSD 5.1 for example)?

Completely agree !!

Now with firm 0925 I really hope to see Oppo work on this, cause I noticed a backstep in sharpness and fine details respect previous Beta 0905 !

I think that Oppo knows the "issue"... that's the reason why, imho, they insert the Dithered option in the Deep Color menù ...

The various versions of AL24 and their implementation in various Denon models is confusing. I attempted to clarify this topic with Denon tech support in regards to the 2809 and its implementation of AL24ProcessingPlus. Per their response, the AL24ProcessingPlus is only applied to externally derived PCM. They further stated that despite the statement in the OM, it is only applied to the FR/L channels on the 2809, as was indicated on the website spec sheet. In any case the important point is that it is unnecessary when the Denon decodes bitstreamed data internally, for ex., if you feed the Denon bitstreamed Dolby True HD or DSD. I do not claim to understand all this fully but FWIW, I quote:

"The reason AL24 does not come into play at this point is that we do not downsample the audio, and as a result no upsampling is required. I apologize for oversimplifying the process. In the case of most playback devices they actually downsample the audio, and if they do, this is why AL24 would be enabled at this point."

The Denon 2809 also handles 192kHz/24 with full Audyssey processing with no problem. In my estimation, through the 2009 models, Denon models had the best Audyssey implementation available.

All that said, though I prefer the DSD bitstreamed off SACD and decoded in the AVR, I don't hear much difference between bitstreamed and PCM of BluRay HiDef codecs from the OPPO thru the Denon. So one need not be concerned with the fact that little AL-24 light is not on when the big blue HD Audio indicator is lit.

MG, in this regard I believe the 988/2808 and 989/2809 are the same. These detailed Denon audio processing topics probably belong in the Denon threads where the Denon gurus can add their wisdom.

Sergio, there are so many audio settings in the Denon that it gets confusing.
Juan, per my Denon 2809/OPPO set to output DSD via HDMI, your last picture is exactly what should be seen "when everything goes right" and the "Std" button on the Denon is pressed, showing MULTI CH IN. This allows the DSD to be converted to PCM in the Denon and Audyssey and bass management to be applied before DAC. It sounds fabulous.

I tested your issue with the Divertimenti BR/SACD discs. The only way I can reproduce your problem screen picture is to intentionally manually switch the OPPO to 2 Ch SACD output. I had very minor HDMI handshake issues when doing multiple tests in the past, switching from various discs etc., with the older OPPO firmware (haven't noticed a problem with the 9/05). I found a simple solution, as referenced here:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post16984985

Hope this helps.

Same for me here. Since updating to the latest firmware, I haven't had a single glitch where the Denon didn't properly recognize the incoming signal. Prior to that update though there were times when I needed to roll the input control to force a handshake.

I started a thread over a year ago in the software Blu Ray forum with regards to film grain and transfers and that thread can be found in my signature. Too much DNR is an issue which will always afflict some films and it will certainly not be fixed for some releases anytime soon thus the idea of simulating grain reproduction using software in the players is a good one. Film grain comes in many different shapes and sizes depending on the film stock used.

I have a 104inch projection screen and i think that Oppo's response to Highlander is right on the money. I have used the 08, 0905 and now the 0925 firmware and using my calibration discs and the sharpness controls on those discs i do not see any reduction in detail levels. The sharpness on my projector is set to -6 and i can tell using the Spears and Munsil calibration disc that there has been no reduction as it is set just below the point where moving the sharpness up introduces edge enhancement into my system. This has not changed with the latest firmware.

I do not see a reduction in detail and i think the Oppo does a great job at reproducing film grain. A slightly better job than the Playstation as the Oppo handles the finer elements of film grain better. ( in my opinion )

I am a very fussy person when it comes to small details like film grain being preserved on movies and i do notice small issues with discs and i would be the first to complain if the detail levels had changed.

Still now this has come up again i'm going to run a few more tests and reload the 0905 firmware afterwards and rewatch again to compare with some scenes i am very familiar with from the movie's Highlander and Resident Evil: Extinction both of which looked fabulous on the 0905 firmware. ( I assume i can roll back firmware - I'll soon find out ) Testing those two as i recently watched them using the 0905 firmware.

Are you implying therefore that a device with lower THD, IMD, wider frequency response, etc., will always sound better than another with higher THD, IMD, etc.? If your belief is that measurements determine the quality of a component, then the Sonys, Pioneers and Denons of this world must manufacture the best components.

Removing the human component from the equation is simply plain foolish. I can use my fave analogy - wine. If two vintners grow the same grapes in nearby fields and harvest the grapes at the same time, one could conclude that their wines will taste the same (and of course, they won't). Yet, if two A/V manufacturers use similar components in their production process, some folks have difficulty in accepting the fact that there are many other variables that contribute towards sound and picture quality.

The reason that measurements are generally not printed in the A/V press, is because publishers likely recognized that the numbers can be, at best, misleading, and at worst, meaningless.

Another analogy, I owned 2 Nakamichi tape decks in the 70s and 80s. The specs of Sony, Tandberg and TEAC decks very often surpassed those of the Naks. Yet I felt and virtually the entire A/V press felt that Naks sounded better. How would you explain that?

My philosophy is simple and very old school: "If it looks and sounds better, it IS better". This may not hold true from person to person, but it is an infallible method for individuals.

Roberta

Back to On Topic for this thread, you buy this damn player yet?

I have painstakingly checked four movie discs using the 0925 firmware and one calibration disc for sharpness and detail levels ( Spears and Munsil ) The movies were Robin Hood: Prince Of Thieves, Resident Evil: Extinction, Speed and Highlander and i then rechecked after rolling back to the 0905 Beta firmware and i can tell you on this 104inch screen i see no loss of detail or difference in image quality between both firmware releases.

I checked the dynamic range low, dynamic range high, chroma multiburst and luma multiburst and sharpness on the Spears and Munsil disc and it is the same as last time i calibrated the projector and the exact same on both 0905 and 0920 firmware.

So my own personal opinion is that detail and sharpness levels have not changed between the 0905 and 0920 firmware. If you are seeing a change then i can not explain why but i know on my setup that i spent almost four hours carefully calibrating there is no difference.

I will tell you one thing. On this projection system using the component out results in a slight loss of detail and slightly less sharpness as compared to HDMI output to the projector. I assume this will also happen on other projection systems and televisions and is because the Anchor Bay chip is not being used when component out is the source of the image. ( Thats just my personal findings though )

Try running the avi's through the DivX Converter using your PC then place on the stick.

Roberta:

I respectfully disagree with you. I too own two Nakamichi tape decks and the specs of these decks were ahead of their time and were generally regarded as state of the art in their day. The Nak's were the first decks to feature 3 heads in a cassette deck and as a result were able to offer 20- 20K +- 3db for the first time in a consumer cassette deck. The reason many manufacturers today have gone away from listing specs such as THD, S/N ratios, etc., is that for many of today's younger music listeners who grew up listening to an IPod, these specs are meaningless and not relevant to making their buying decisions for AV equipment. My local AV dealer used to regularly host amplifier clinics where you could bring any brand of amplifier/receiver and have it tested. The gear that tested at the top was generally gear that was highly regarding as sounding the best (McIntosh, Marantz, Luxman, etc.). How many of your friends who are under the age of 30 know what these specs even mean? I recently went to BB and asked about SACD's and not one of the young "experts" there had any idea what I was talking about. As for your wine analogy, the grapes do not determine the quality of the wine nearly as much as the vintner and the process he/she uses and the care in crafting the wine. The analogy to audio would be two 100 wpc receivers which both offer the same functions for audio/video. We both know they may sound very different and I would argue that the one which has significantly better specifications on both the audio and video sides is the better receiver and that most people would say that the one with the better specs. sounds and looks better up to the point where the distortion/noise is no longer audible/visible to human hearing or sight.

Thanks for the work and report.
Good to know.


Mike

I think mathematically, the adjustment of contrast is to change the gain (multiplication factor) of the luminance signal, whereas adjusting brightness is to add offset to the luminance signal. Take for example, in standard 8-bit video resolution, the reference black is 16 and reference white is 235. Now, if we add the offset value of say, 5 to the luminance value, its effect will be much more pronounced when the luminance value is low, i.e. 5 out of 16 is 31% increase. The same 5 point increase at 235 is only 2% which means that the brightness control is only effective in adjusting the black level.

Instead of adding a value, if we multiply the luminance signal by a constant say, 1.05 or 0.95, its effect will be more pronounced when the luminance value is high. This is why we use the contrast control to adjust the white level.

Thanks for the reply, you were very helpful.

My BDP-83 just arrived. It's sweet! I will be posting this weekend when I get a chance to connect it to my new Onkyo 707 receiver. It's like xmas here this week!

FoxyMulder,

Thanks for taking the time to do this exhausting test. I haven't notice any change is picture quality between the 2 firmwares either. Good job.


Respectfully,
Willie

Positive feedback will be reviewing the Oppo BDP-83 in the near future http://www.positive-feedback.com/upcoming.htm

I reran comparisons on my 141 again, using both FW releases. With ISF-Day or Night there are no visible differences that I can discern.

I haven't noticed any PQ change since new firmware addition. I just watched Resident Evil on blu-ray and for being a 9 year old film the picture was sharp and detailed, with vivid colors (especially reds and blues), rich black levels, and excellent shadow detail. The photography is naturally a little grainy, but not overwhelmingly so, and the grain is always well-compressed without turning noisy. To reiterate, I love this player.

That is GREAT news!! The last Beta fixed it for me and I've been reluctant to go with anything else. Now I can update and HOPEFULLY get the same result!

SoundofMind, thanks for your help.

I found that simple solution myself, other simple solution is load a music CD between DVD/BD and SACD. But the best solution is listen a SACD before watch a movie

Cheers, Juan

De nada.

Thanks for report !
and yes, I still see a bit of diff ... sorry
and yes again, I outs via Hdmi Video, not component and primary video out is set in hdmi

I have my BDP-83 hooked up to the internet. This past week I was notified of firmware updates, and auto-updated on two separate occasions. The first was over the weekend, and then another last night (Thursday 10/08). I went to the Oppo website and couldn't find anything besides the current release (09/30/09). That would account for the weekend update, but what about the one from last night? Anybody know the firmware release history?

I believe two updates were required to go from the last official release to this one.

Joel

Question:

I've read some of the reports of the lackluster (compared to hdmi) mc analog outs of the -83.

I am about to set mine up to my Denon 5803 and am wondering if there is a hard and fast rule for toslink v. multichannel (obviously taking sacd's out of the equation). Or, should I connect both and sample various movies to see which sounds best? Thanks.

One thing to consider is that with the toslink output you won't be able to take advantage of the high resolution lossless codecs that most Blu-ray discs have (only the lossy core stuff). You'll need to use the multichannel outputs for those if your AVR doesn't support HDMI.