Official OPPO BDP-83 Owner's Thread [technical talk only] - Page 101

Originally Posted by WestCoastD

is this because (you feel) the Oppo's Cirrus DAC's are mediorce or "so-so"?

Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau

Decoding of the lossless HD audio formats is an unusual case.

Blu-Ray (and HD DVD) were designed around the concept of in-player decoding. This meant studios could assume all players would implement in-player audio mixing of secondary audio.

In-receiver decoding happened largely because the implementation of DTS-HD MA decoders for players was late (and for that matter in-player audio mixing was late) and because companies making receivers wanted to get their hands on some of the cash early adopters were spending on Blu-Ray. I.e., buy our receiver because it decodes this stuff, despite the fact that decoding players will be here real soon now and thus you will be paying out twice for the same feature.

What makes in-player decoding work well today is that there is a way to get the results of the lossless decoder into the receiver without loss of quality -- digital HDMI LPCM audio. This didn't exist back when the SD-DVD feature set got nailed down. Back when SD-DVDs happened there was no way to get the full quality of decoded audio into the receiver. So the preferred approach was to send the bitstream to the receiver (via optical or coax digital audio) and let the receiver take it from there. And thus no audio mixing in SD-DVDs.

Fast forward to today and now we have two ways of handling this audio: In-player or in-receiver decoding. The results of the decoding are the same either way -- that's what it means when you say these formats are "lossless". The decoder produces identical LPCM to what went into the encoder in the studio -- bit for bit identical.

So we win in that we can do it either way, and the companies win in that they get our cash twice (player and receiver). Nevertheless, in-player decoding is still preferable because that's what's needed for proper in-player mixing of secondary audio.

NOTE: You can't do the audio mixing in the receiver because (1) mixing can't happen until the audio is decoded, and (2) there's no way to get the secondary audio track into the receiver.
--Bob

Originally Posted by svphile

Is audio output via all connections all the time?

Originally Posted by James W. Johnson

Most likely I am going to go thru the trouble of finding out how the Oppo performs in comparison to my BDP-51FD.


If I do get an Oppo my expectations on it will be very high , way higher than I put on any other player ive owned including the 51FD. Id akin my Oppo expectations about the same id put on that new $4500 Denon if I purchased one.

And if in the end I cannot see a solid performance jump over my 51FD then the Oppo will quickly be returned.

Originally Posted by James W. Johnson

Most likely I am going to go thru the trouble of finding out how the Oppo performs in comparison to my BDP-51FD.


If I do get an Oppo my expectations on it will be very high , way higher than I put on any other player ive owned including the 51FD. Id akin my Oppo expectations about the same id put on that new $4500 Denon if I purchased one.

And if in the end I cannot see a solid performance jump over my 51FD then the Oppo will quickly be returned.

Originally Posted by Michael1960

My understanding from your message, Bob, is that if one is considering upgrading from an non-HDMI equipped AVR to one that does have HDMI inputs, it is not necessary, given ownership of a BDP-83, to purchase a receiver equipped to decode lossless HD audio formats; accurate understanding?

Thanks.

Originally Posted by Neuromancer

Correct.



I said earlier in this thread that I do not like multi-channel SACD when in a Pure Direct mode for this very reason. Converting DSD to PCM is a necessary evil for a proper soundstage to be produced in most home theater and music setups.

Originally Posted by rick240

So go buy a Blu-ray player from a company other than the one that made it's reputation by building the best upconverting DVD players.

The market of people who want the best DVD/Blu-ray player and no analog is many, many, many times greater than the number of people with a 983 who want a Blu-ray and are unwilling to upgrade their 983.

Did I mention that it was many times bigger yet? And growing every day someone buys a new HDTV and an HDMI receiver.

Unlike the other market which is actually shrinking (no more 983s for sale, 983 owners were in first EAP and will be in next EAP and most of the rest will buy an 83 as soon as they can otherwise). So unless they offer it last year there will be almost no market.

EDIT: Apologies for a bit of a rant. But if Oppo is going to do a son-of-983 it should build on what they do best already and for the market that is growing the fastest. Just basic Econ101.

Originally Posted by gonk

It can convert DSD to PCM prior to the multichannel DAC, in which case you get bass management and other DSP controls. However, the reason for the debate is the BDP-83's ability to feed the DSD bitstream directly to the multichannel DAC. This is feature that previous OPPO players have not offered. When the BDP-83's "SACD Output" is set to "DSD" (under the Audio Format Setup), the player applies this setting to both the HDMI output and the analog output, sending a DSD bitstream to both the HDMI output and the multichannel DAC. The debate is a result of some questions about how the DSD signal could reach the DAC based on a picture of the analog board.

Originally Posted by Neuromancer

This is not a bug, as the player isn't the DV-983H. It has not been designed to switch SACD layers on the fly using the Audio button.

This may be introduced in a future firmware release.

Originally Posted by svphile

sorry if this has been covered but this is a big thread.

Can you switch between spdif and analog audio without going into menu?

Is audio output via all connections all the time?

I like to switch back and forth with my 55k to compare? I prefer spdif but that is because the analog output stage of the 55k isn't very good IMO.

Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin

Nothing like having unrealistic expectations!!

Originally Posted by bakerwi

I own both the BDP-83 and a Pioneer BDP-51FD and I'dhave to give the nod to the Oppo for SD-DVD playback and the 2 are close in blu-ray playback. If your only criteria is PQ for SD-DVD and BD, then the Pioneers will serve this purpose and serve it well. Presently, I plan on keeping both machines

Originally Posted by Styln

I certainly hope that SACD stereo/multi channel selection can be done from the remote or front panel. I don't care about on the fly change, but I do care about being able to easily select the layer I want to hear. Please clarify if the layer can be selected from the remote once playback has been halted.

There are two reasons this is important:

1) Ease of use - don't want to turn on the display to change SACD layers. In fact, I don't plan on having a display at all as I'm looking to use this to replace my current SACD player in an analog system.

2) Sometimes there are vast differences between SACD layers. For example, you'll get the original studio 2 track original mix in stereo and the remastered MCH on the multi layer

Realize I'm in a minority position here, and I don't want to be hanged by suggesting this is required for the next EAP release. But I will say that it pretty much kills the use of this BDP for daily SACD listening in a system using the RCA outs.

Originally Posted by Michael1960

My understanding from your message, Bob, is that if one is considering upgrading from an non-HDMI equipped AVR to one that does have HDMI inputs, it is not necessary, given ownership of a BDP-83, to purchase a receiver equipped to decode lossless HD audio formats; accurate understanding?

Thanks.

Originally Posted by WestCoastD

but you have'nt even experimented with, either, a BDP-51FDor BDP-05FD

Originally Posted by tommypeters

Perhaps it's Philips's old "1-bit delta-sigma bitstream" technique, only one data line at 64x oversampling frequency...

Originally Posted by James W. Johnson

Most likely I am going to go thru the trouble of finding out how the Oppo performs in comparison to my BDP-51FD.**If I do get an Oppo my expectations on it will be very high , way higher than I put on any other player ive owned including the 51FD. Id akin my Oppo expectations about the same id put on that new $4500 Denon if I purchased one.*And if in the end I cannot see a solid performance jump over my 51FD then the Oppo will quickly be returned.

Originally Posted by Neuromancer

My post, which you quoted, was actually a response to Brian-HD, who has since deleted his post. It was not meant to clarify any statements you made.

Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau

Correct. It is not necessary. I used the Oppo just fine with my older Anthem D2 pre-pro which does not decode. The decoding in the Oppo does the trick.

But keep in mind that market pressures being what they are, attempting to buy a new pre-pro or AVR today that DOESN'T include decoding almost certainly means you are giving up other stuff as well. I.e., the manufacturers are bundling decoding with their other high end features. So if you buy the lower priced product without decoding you are probably giving up some other stuff as well.

Make sure that whatever receiver you get, whether or not it includes decoding, handles high bandwidth, multi-channel HDMI LPCM input properly. In particular, make sure it can do speaker volume trims, speaker distance adjustment, and bass steering (crossovers) for such input. Then see whether any of its value added features such as surround modes (e.g., raise 5.1 input to 7.1 speaker output) also work even with HDMI LPCM input.

See the first post in the "future proof" receiver sticky thread in the Amps, Receivers, Processors forum here for more info on stuff to look for.

One good trick is to download the manual for the receiver you are interested in and ALSO the manual for the top of the line receiver from that company. Then look for the words that are MISSING in the manual for the cheaper product.
--Bob

Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau

I survived the main PS3 thread so I think I can survive this one too.

We'll see...


--Bob

Originally Posted by Styln

I certainly hope that SACD stereo/multi channel selection can be done from the remote or front panel. I don't care about on the fly change, but I do care about being able to easily select the layer I want to hear. Please clarify if the layer can be selected from the remote once playback has been halted.

There are two reasons this is important:

1) Ease of use - don't want to turn on the display to change SACD layers. In fact, I don't plan on having a display at all as I'm looking to use this to replace my current SACD player in an analog system.

2) Sometimes there are vast differences between SACD layers. For example, you'll get the original studio 2 track original mix in stereo and the remastered MCH on the multi layer

Realize I'm in a minority position here, and I don't want to be hanged by suggesting this is required for the next EAP release. But I will say that it pretty much kills the use of this BDP for daily SACD listening in a system using the RCA outs.

Originally Posted by sharkshark

I'm not Bob, and welcome to the forum, but, yeah, that's correct.

(same, by the way, if you have a PS3 or several other players)...

Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215

Actually, the 980 has DSD output via HDMI. That's what I use now. The 980 was the only one from Oppo until the BDP-83.

Originally Posted by SJHT

Wow, thanks for pointing that out. I will want to get one with a serial port. Allows beter integration into my setup. Not sure why they dropped this as the 983 has one. Likely will have to wait until the EAP program is done for this to be an option. If I'm selected for the next round, I will ask to get that option included and see what they say.... SJ

Originally Posted by thebland

The OPPO (and any other) will easily best the 51. The 51 is the worst player on the market when it comes to reliability, speed and disc errors... it is also the cheapest you can buy.