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Official OPPO BDP-83 Owner's Thread [technical talk only] - Page 101

post #3001 of 39280
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post

is this because (you feel) the Oppo's Cirrus DAC's are mediorce or "so-so"?

In this review, the guy states that Oppo is better at CD processing (analog output) than Onkyo 885:
http://www.prillaman.net/oppobdp83_review.html

I'm already sold anyways and will get BDP-83 as soon as it comes out, but I would like to know if it's absolutely nessesary to get an external DAC. Need to see more comparison reviews against $400-500 CD players.
post #3002 of 39280
sorry if this has been covered but this is a big thread.

Can you switch between spdif and analog audio without going into menu?

Is audio output via all connections all the time?

I like to switch back and forth with my 55k to compare? I prefer spdif but that is because the analog output stage of the 55k isn't very good IMO.
post #3003 of 39280
My understanding from your message, Bob, is that if one is considering upgrading from an non-HDMI equipped AVR to one that does have HDMI inputs, it is not necessary, given ownership of a BDP-83, to purchase a receiver equipped to decode lossless HD audio formats; accurate understanding?

Thanks.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Decoding of the lossless HD audio formats is an unusual case.

Blu-Ray (and HD DVD) were designed around the concept of in-player decoding. This meant studios could assume all players would implement in-player audio mixing of secondary audio.

In-receiver decoding happened largely because the implementation of DTS-HD MA decoders for players was late (and for that matter in-player audio mixing was late) and because companies making receivers wanted to get their hands on some of the cash early adopters were spending on Blu-Ray. I.e., buy our receiver because it decodes this stuff, despite the fact that decoding players will be here real soon now and thus you will be paying out twice for the same feature.

What makes in-player decoding work well today is that there is a way to get the results of the lossless decoder into the receiver without loss of quality -- digital HDMI LPCM audio. This didn't exist back when the SD-DVD feature set got nailed down. Back when SD-DVDs happened there was no way to get the full quality of decoded audio into the receiver. So the preferred approach was to send the bitstream to the receiver (via optical or coax digital audio) and let the receiver take it from there. And thus no audio mixing in SD-DVDs.

Fast forward to today and now we have two ways of handling this audio: In-player or in-receiver decoding. The results of the decoding are the same either way -- that's what it means when you say these formats are "lossless". The decoder produces identical LPCM to what went into the encoder in the studio -- bit for bit identical.

So we win in that we can do it either way, and the companies win in that they get our cash twice (player and receiver). Nevertheless, in-player decoding is still preferable because that's what's needed for proper in-player mixing of secondary audio.

NOTE: You can't do the audio mixing in the receiver because (1) mixing can't happen until the audio is decoded, and (2) there's no way to get the secondary audio track into the receiver.
--Bob
post #3004 of 39280
Most likely I am going to go thru the trouble of finding out how the Oppo performs in comparison to my BDP-51FD.


If I do get an Oppo my expectations on it will be very high , way higher than I put on any other player ive owned including the 51FD. Id akin my Oppo expectations about the same id put on that new $4500 Denon if I purchased one.

And if in the end I cannot see a solid performance jump over my 51FD then the Oppo will quickly be returned.
post #3005 of 39280
Quote:
Originally Posted by svphile View Post

Is audio output via all connections all the time?

Yes.

-Bill
post #3006 of 39280
Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

Most likely I am going to go thru the trouble of finding out how the Oppo performs in comparison to my BDP-51FD.


If I do get an Oppo my expectations on it will be very high , way higher than I put on any other player ive owned including the 51FD. Id akin my Oppo expectations about the same id put on that new $4500 Denon if I purchased one.

And if in the end I cannot see a solid performance jump over my 51FD then the Oppo will quickly be returned.

The suspense is killing me.
post #3007 of 39280
Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

Most likely I am going to go thru the trouble of finding out how the Oppo performs in comparison to my BDP-51FD.


If I do get an Oppo my expectations on it will be very high , way higher than I put on any other player ive owned including the 51FD. Id akin my Oppo expectations about the same id put on that new $4500 Denon if I purchased one.

And if in the end I cannot see a solid performance jump over my 51FD then the Oppo will quickly be returned.

Nothing like having unrealistic expectations!!
post #3008 of 39280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael1960 View Post

My understanding from your message, Bob, is that if one is considering upgrading from an non-HDMI equipped AVR to one that does have HDMI inputs, it is not necessary, given ownership of a BDP-83, to purchase a receiver equipped to decode lossless HD audio formats; accurate understanding?

Thanks.

I'm not Bob, and welcome to the forum, but, yeah, that's correct.

(same, by the way, if you have a PS3 or several other players)...
post #3009 of 39280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post

Correct.



I said earlier in this thread that I do not like multi-channel SACD when in a Pure Direct mode for this very reason. Converting DSD to PCM is a necessary evil for a proper soundstage to be produced in most home theater and music setups.

I do not know how evil it is, if at all. I suspect not vey much, if even audible.
post #3010 of 39280
Quote:
Originally Posted by rick240 View Post

So go buy a Blu-ray player from a company other than the one that made it's reputation by building the best upconverting DVD players.

The market of people who want the best DVD/Blu-ray player and no analog is many, many, many times greater than the number of people with a 983 who want a Blu-ray and are unwilling to upgrade their 983.

Did I mention that it was many times bigger yet? And growing every day someone buys a new HDTV and an HDMI receiver.

Unlike the other market which is actually shrinking (no more 983s for sale, 983 owners were in first EAP and will be in next EAP and most of the rest will buy an 83 as soon as they can otherwise). So unless they offer it last year there will be almost no market.

EDIT: Apologies for a bit of a rant. But if Oppo is going to do a son-of-983 it should build on what they do best already and for the market that is growing the fastest. Just basic Econ101.

Whatever....
post #3011 of 39280
Quote:
Originally Posted by gonk View Post

It can convert DSD to PCM prior to the multichannel DAC, in which case you get bass management and other DSP controls. However, the reason for the debate is the BDP-83's ability to feed the DSD bitstream directly to the multichannel DAC. This is feature that previous OPPO players have not offered. When the BDP-83's "SACD Output" is set to "DSD" (under the Audio Format Setup), the player applies this setting to both the HDMI output and the analog output, sending a DSD bitstream to both the HDMI output and the multichannel DAC. The debate is a result of some questions about how the DSD signal could reach the DAC based on a picture of the analog board.

Actually, the 980 has DSD output via HDMI. That's what I use now. The 980 was the only one from Oppo until the BDP-83.
post #3012 of 39280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post

This is not a bug, as the player isn't the DV-983H. It has not been designed to switch SACD layers on the fly using the Audio button.

This may be introduced in a future firmware release.

I certainly hope that SACD stereo/multi channel selection can be done from the remote or front panel. I don't care about on the fly change, but I do care about being able to easily select the layer I want to hear. Please clarify if the layer can be selected from the remote once playback has been halted.

There are two reasons this is important:

1) Ease of use - don't want to turn on the display to change SACD layers. In fact, I don't plan on having a display at all as I'm looking to use this to replace my current SACD player in an analog system.

2) Sometimes there are vast differences between SACD layers. For example, you'll get the original studio 2 track original mix in stereo and the remastered MCH on the multi layer

Realize I'm in a minority position here, and I don't want to be hanged by suggesting this is required for the next EAP release. But I will say that it pretty much kills the use of this BDP for daily SACD listening in a system using the RCA outs.
post #3013 of 39280
Quote:
Originally Posted by svphile View Post

sorry if this has been covered but this is a big thread.

Can you switch between spdif and analog audio without going into menu?

Is audio output via all connections all the time?

I like to switch back and forth with my 55k to compare? I prefer spdif but that is because the analog output stage of the 55k isn't very good IMO.

Understand that you can't get the full quality of the new, high def Blu-Ray audio formats on optical coax or digital audio connections. This is due to copy protection.

You will get the lossy "core" or "associated" compatibility DD or DTS track which is on Blu-Ray discs for just such compatibility purposes if you select bitstream output. You will get a 2 channel stereo down mix if you select LPCM output. See the audio signal reference chart in the player manual.
--Bob
post #3014 of 39280
It is bad for people with projectors as well. No need to burn bulb time to select a layer change for SACD. I wouldn't think it would be tough to add this feature. My old cheapo Sony DVD/SACD player does it. Not a deal breaker for me, but I'd like to see it included.
post #3015 of 39280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rob Tomlin View Post

Nothing like having unrealistic expectations!!

I just hope when Oppo is selecting EAP participants, they are paying attention to which posters clearly want an 83 for the sole purpose of returning it and then FUDding it to death on this board.
post #3016 of 39280
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post

I own both the BDP-83 and a Pioneer BDP-51FD and I'dhave to give the nod to the Oppo for SD-DVD playback and the 2 are close in blu-ray playback. If your only criteria is PQ for SD-DVD and BD, then the Pioneers will serve this purpose and serve it well. Presently, I plan on keeping both machines

thanks for your input. I'm considering getting an Oppo BDP-83, I would like to compare to my collection of machines for SD-DVD, BD, CD, SACD/DVD-A. I'm currently using a DVD-3800BDCI, BDP-05FD, DVD-3930CI, DV-980H.
post #3017 of 39280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Styln View Post

I certainly hope that SACD stereo/multi channel selection can be done from the remote or front panel. I don't care about on the fly change, but I do care about being able to easily select the layer I want to hear. Please clarify if the layer can be selected from the remote once playback has been halted.

There are two reasons this is important:

1) Ease of use - don't want to turn on the display to change SACD layers. In fact, I don't plan on having a display at all as I'm looking to use this to replace my current SACD player in an analog system.

2) Sometimes there are vast differences between SACD layers. For example, you'll get the original studio 2 track original mix in stereo and the remastered MCH on the multi layer

Realize I'm in a minority position here, and I don't want to be hanged by suggesting this is required for the next EAP release. But I will say that it pretty much kills the use of this BDP for daily SACD listening in a system using the RCA outs.

Not disagreeing with your recommendation at all, but is it really worth it to buy an -83 solely for audio?
post #3018 of 39280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael1960 View Post

My understanding from your message, Bob, is that if one is considering upgrading from an non-HDMI equipped AVR to one that does have HDMI inputs, it is not necessary, given ownership of a BDP-83, to purchase a receiver equipped to decode lossless HD audio formats; accurate understanding?

Thanks.

Correct. It is not necessary. I used the Oppo just fine with my older Anthem D2 pre-pro which does not decode. The decoding in the Oppo does the trick.

But keep in mind that market pressures being what they are, attempting to buy a new pre-pro or AVR today that DOESN'T include decoding almost certainly means you are giving up other stuff as well. I.e., the manufacturers are bundling decoding with their other high end features. So if you buy the lower priced product without decoding you are probably giving up some other stuff as well.

Make sure that whatever receiver you get, whether or not it includes decoding, handles high bandwidth, multi-channel HDMI LPCM input properly. In particular, make sure it can do speaker volume trims, speaker distance adjustment, and bass steering (crossovers) for such input. Then see whether any of its value added features such as surround modes (e.g., raise 5.1 input to 7.1 speaker output) also work even with HDMI LPCM input.

See the first post in the "future proof" receiver sticky thread in the Amps, Receivers, Processors forum here for more info on stuff to look for.

One good trick is to download the manual for the receiver you are interested in and ALSO the manual for the top of the line receiver from that company. Then look for the words that are MISSING in the manual for the cheaper product.
--Bob
post #3019 of 39280
Quote:
Originally Posted by WestCoastD View Post

but you have'nt even experimented with, either, a BDP-51FDor BDP-05FD

I have both and overall the Oppo is better. Better at SD and more
stable. I have no fear of a disc freezing or not loading when I insert
it in the Oppo.

Not bad for a player that has not been officially released.

The 51 or 05 are excellent if all your interested in is Blu-ray playback
and don't mind the slow loading times and quirks that still seem to be
present in some units.

The Oppo brings so much more to the table with all the features
included. If these feature are not needed than the Pioneers or
any other Blu-ray player will suffice.
post #3020 of 39280
Quote:
Originally Posted by tommypeters View Post

Perhaps it's Philips's old "1-bit delta-sigma bitstream" technique, only one data line at 64x oversampling frequency...

DSD is a indeed a 1-bit delta-sigma encoding scheme. However, for multichannel 7.1 audio, the Cirrus multichannel CS4382 DAC used in the BDP-83, naturally requires one input (pin) per channel.
The Cirrus Logic CS4382 datasheet lists the DSD inputs as:
DSDA1
DSDB1
DSDA2
DSDB2
DSDA3
DSDB3
DSDA4
DSDB4
post #3021 of 39280
Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

Most likely I am going to go thru the trouble of finding out how the Oppo performs in comparison to my BDP-51FD.**If I do get an Oppo my expectations on it will be very high , way higher than I put on any other player ive owned including the 51FD. Id akin my Oppo expectations about the same id put on that new $4500 Denon if I purchased one.*And if in the end I cannot see a solid performance jump over my 51FD then the Oppo will quickly be returned.

Your expectations are soooooooooooooo*** high!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
post #3022 of 39280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuromancer View Post

My post, which you quoted, was actually a response to Brian-HD, who has since deleted his post. It was not meant to clarify any statements you made.

Sorry about that Neuro. I gets hard to follow conversations when there's no quote.

I can only imagine what will happen when 300 more EAPers start posting. Can you say: major data overload. We're all going to go mad.
post #3023 of 39280
I survived the main PS3 thread so I think I can survive this one too.

We'll see...


--Bob
post #3024 of 39280
Thanks Bob for the very helpful response.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

Correct. It is not necessary. I used the Oppo just fine with my older Anthem D2 pre-pro which does not decode. The decoding in the Oppo does the trick.

But keep in mind that market pressures being what they are, attempting to buy a new pre-pro or AVR today that DOESN'T include decoding almost certainly means you are giving up other stuff as well. I.e., the manufacturers are bundling decoding with their other high end features. So if you buy the lower priced product without decoding you are probably giving up some other stuff as well.

Make sure that whatever receiver you get, whether or not it includes decoding, handles high bandwidth, multi-channel HDMI LPCM input properly. In particular, make sure it can do speaker volume trims, speaker distance adjustment, and bass steering (crossovers) for such input. Then see whether any of its value added features such as surround modes (e.g., raise 5.1 input to 7.1 speaker output) also work even with HDMI LPCM input.

See the first post in the "future proof" receiver sticky thread in the Amps, Receivers, Processors forum here for more info on stuff to look for.

One good trick is to download the manual for the receiver you are interested in and ALSO the manual for the top of the line receiver from that company. Then look for the words that are MISSING in the manual for the cheaper product.
--Bob
post #3025 of 39280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Pariseau View Post

I survived the main PS3 thread so I think I can survive this one too.

We'll see...


--Bob

Yeah, but your're SUPER BOB!
The rest of us, we are but mere mortals...
post #3026 of 39280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Styln View Post

I certainly hope that SACD stereo/multi channel selection can be done from the remote or front panel. I don't care about on the fly change, but I do care about being able to easily select the layer I want to hear. Please clarify if the layer can be selected from the remote once playback has been halted.

There are two reasons this is important:

1) Ease of use - don't want to turn on the display to change SACD layers. In fact, I don't plan on having a display at all as I'm looking to use this to replace my current SACD player in an analog system.

2) Sometimes there are vast differences between SACD layers. For example, you'll get the original studio 2 track original mix in stereo and the remastered MCH on the multi layer

Realize I'm in a minority position here, and I don't want to be hanged by suggesting this is required for the next EAP release. But I will say that it pretty much kills the use of this BDP for daily SACD listening in a system using the RCA outs.


No need to apologize. Including SACD implies an enhanced interest in the quality of reproducing audio only media. I'm with you 100%. Don't do things half-assed, I'd say.
post #3027 of 39280
Thanks, sharkshark, for both, the welcome and confirming my understanding.
There's been more than a few changes since I purchased Rotel's first AVR and one of Denon's first DVD Audio players! Steep learning curve...

Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkshark View Post

I'm not Bob, and welcome to the forum, but, yeah, that's correct.

(same, by the way, if you have a PS3 or several other players)...
post #3028 of 39280
Quote:
Originally Posted by fitzcaraldo215 View Post

Actually, the 980 has DSD output via HDMI. That's what I use now. The 980 was the only one from Oppo until the BDP-83.

Yes, but the 980H can't do DSD-to-analog. It has to convert to PCM prior to the player's internal DAC.
post #3029 of 39280
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJHT View Post

Wow, thanks for pointing that out. I will want to get one with a serial port. Allows beter integration into my setup. Not sure why they dropped this as the 983 has one. Likely will have to wait until the EAP program is done for this to be an option. If I'm selected for the next round, I will ask to get that option included and see what they say.... SJ

I have not confirmed this but I'd assume the main board has the port already there, so it's just a matter of installing the connector. Something many people can handle. But I'd expect Oppo to charge very little for doing it for you, prolly just their actual cost.
post #3030 of 39280
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

The OPPO (and any other) will easily best the 51. The 51 is the worst player on the market when it comes to reliability, speed and disc errors... it is also the cheapest you can buy.

While I do not totally agree with you I cannot disagree with you on the fact that the 51FD is buggy.
There is no question that I expect Pioneer to address some of these issues with the next firmware.
Its certainly not the worst player though, my BD30 had its share of bugs. However IMO the 51FD outperforms my old Panasonic BD30 for SD by a solid 300-400%.

I will mostly likely find out soon enough how the Oppo compares to my 51FD, heck its only $500 , the combined cost of the Oppo and 51fd is still far less than what a Pioneer 09FD can be had for. BTW I really want to see an 09FD in action too but there are no stores in my town who would have one.
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