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Official OPPO BDP-83 Owner's Thread [technical talk only] - Page 196

post #5851 of 38733
3/31/09 at 9:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mkbruce View Post

I meant "audio leading the video".

I know that audio delay for analog outputs is on the feature request list. Anyone have any ideas of how likely is it that this feature is implemented? The current lip-sync problem is not bearable in my system.

Magnus

Ah, so i got it right and I am vidicated!

Seriously though, as I said, this is an issue that concerns me as I don't think I have an effective audio delay on my Pioneer Elite VSX-43TX. Does your Classe Pre-pro have delays built-in?

Again, I hope that OPPO helps us folks with older, non-HDMI, recievers, so we are able to compensate for the processing time on projectors.
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post #5852 of 38733
3/31/09 at 9:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

With some patterns, there are 2% lighter-than-black bars that you adjust till they just disappear. Other patterns use 2% blacker than black that you adjust till they just appear. (or do I have that backwards?) There shouldn't be any issue unless you previously adjusted with a player that was WAY out of whack. The Oppo is near perfect out of the box if the monitor is correctly adjusted.

I ran S&M again and it seem like I had to raise brightness +10 notches from my preset calibration setting. The HD color bars were close and contrast seemed to be ok, that I could tell.
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post #5853 of 38733
3/31/09 at 10:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

With some patterns, there are 2% lighter-than-black bars that you adjust till they just disappear. Other patterns use 2% blacker than black that you adjust till they just appear. (or do I have that backwards?) There shouldn't be any issue unless you previously adjusted with a player that was WAY out of whack. The Oppo is near perfect out of the box if the monitor is correctly adjusted.

I had to change my Sony projector exactly 2 steps (our of 100) to get the brightness (ie, black level) correct with the Oppo and the included Blu-ray calibration disk. I don't even think that was because the Oppo is different from the PS3 but because the included calibration disc is more nuanced (has more steps) than the DVE Blu-ray.

---

I am surprised to hear about all the sync issues. I've watched a wide variety of stuff, mostly at 24p, and had no trouble (other than the DTS track on the infamous Moulin Rouge DVD, which had trouble on other players, as well).
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post #5854 of 38733
3/31/09 at 10:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

This sounds a bit like a CSS error issue, one that we have dealt with in beta testing.

Thanks rdgrimes. You're right, according to the email I just received from Oppo. I hope they don't mind me quoting a portion of it here as yet another demonstration of their stellar support.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Todd,

We just read on AVS Forums that you did not receive a reply to your e-mail. All e-mails are responded to within 24 or 48 hours of being received.

We sent a replay to your e-mail (received Saturday morning) that evening at 6:23PM PST.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It goes on to say the problem is known and will be fixed in a future firmware release.

Even with all I've read about Oppo's support, I'm still amazed. I don't know why I didn't get their original response, but it was clearly an unusual circumstance.
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post #5855 of 38733
3/31/09 at 10:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by yarrumc View Post

I tried Auto and also 4:4:4 (which seems to be what is auto detected) and I still have to crank up my brightness from 45 to 67, before I see the flashing bars below 16 (AVSHD 709 disc). I think contrast was close, but I couldn't raise it higher anyway, since it was ISF'd to max (100) and the color and tint was also off, according to the AVSHD. Maybe I am missing something, but if things seem fine to the eye, then maybe I should just move on and enjoy the movies.

from the avshd 709
This is a very low APL pattern for observing black-level on a digital display. When setting black-level (brightness) the basic idea is that you want to set the control as dark as possible without losing detail. A setting that is too high unnecessarily raises the brightness of black to washout the image, and a too low setting will cause a loss of detail. Ideally you want the darkest blacks with all the intended detail, which is indicated by 17 still flashing.
To get an idea how this pattern works, begin by setting brightness very high. With brightness set very high you should see this pattern contains a number of vertical bars flashing over top of a dark background. As you lower the brightness controls you will see the lower numbered bars disappear into the background. To get the darkest black possible without losing detail, you want to turn down brightness to the lowest setting where 17 continues to just barely flash. If your display is able to show the flashing bars numbered 2-16, ideally when you get done the bars from 16 down will blend together so that you can only see 17-25 flash. Basically for a digital display, just set brightness as dark as possible so that 17 remains flashing.
Basic
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post #5856 of 38733
3/31/09 at 10:35pm
EDIT: I tried the passage about 20 hours after posting this (after seeing someone else not be able to reproduce it) and it worked. I changed nothing on the player. I'm hoping the disc was in a bad mood or something. Original post preserved below for posterity.

Quote:


I was watching Planet Earth on Blu-ray tonight and around 49:20 of the "Fresh Water" episode (disc 1)-- the scene with thousands of flying geese-- the player started stuttering. Both audio and video became real choppy until the scene was over.

I've only seen one mention of stuttering in this thread so far (with Baraka).

I was originally watching at 720P (native resolution of monitor). I also tried 1080P and Source Direct with 24fps both on and off, and experienced the issues both times. I naively assumed that if it was an issue with the video processor not being able to "keep up" with the scene (it is rather complex from a video encoding perspective), then enabling Source Direct would fix things, since all the processing would be disabled.

Can anyone else reproduce this?

Edit 1 - April 1 (morning) : Added output resolution and disc type info so it isn't scattered over responses
Edit 2 - April 1 (evening) : Added fact that it is working now, for whatever reason
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post #5857 of 38733
3/31/09 at 10:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorro524a View Post

I was watching Planet Earth tonight and around 49:20 of the "Fresh Water" episode (disc 1)-- the scene with thousands of flying geese-- the player started stuttering. Both audio and video became real choppy until the scene was over.

I've only seen one mention of stuttering in this thread so far (with Baraka).

Anyone else have this problem?

What are your resolution and 24fps settings?
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post #5858 of 38733
3/31/09 at 10:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by progprog View Post

What are your resolution and 24fps settings?

Originally I was watching at 720P. I am able to reproduce it under source direct mode with 24fps both on and off.
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post #5859 of 38733
3/31/09 at 11:10pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by GRUNT3 View Post

from the avshd 709
This is a very low APL pattern for observing black-level on a digital display. When setting black-level (brightness) the basic idea is that you want to set the control as dark as possible without losing detail. A setting that is too high unnecessarily raises the brightness of black to washout the image, and a too low setting will cause a loss of detail. Ideally you want the darkest blacks with all the intended detail, which is indicated by 17 still flashing.
To get an idea how this pattern works, begin by setting brightness very high. With brightness set very high you should see this pattern contains a number of vertical bars flashing over top of a dark background. As you lower the brightness controls you will see the lower numbered bars disappear into the background. To get the darkest black possible without losing detail, you want to turn down brightness to the lowest setting where 17 continues to just barely flash. If your display is able to show the flashing bars numbered 2-16, ideally when you get done the bars from 16 down will blend together so that you can only see 17-25 flash. Basically for a digital display, just set brightness as dark as possible so that 17 remains flashing.
Basic

In my case, I only see bars above 16, nothing below. To barely see 17, I had to adjust my brightness by +22 (default is 45). That seems quite high and was obviously washing out the screen. I went back and tried the S&M disc and found that I had to raise brightness by 10, not as much. It seemed to be acceptable, but might be a tad high, when viewing dark content (Hellboy 2). I watched several scenes and found that the adjusted brightness was acceptable, but not sure it is still correct. Oh great, now I have a mystery on my hands! I have also presented this to the guy that calibrated my TV, to get his opinion as well. Thanks.
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post #5860 of 38733
3/31/09 at 11:14pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Perpendicular View Post

I find this interesting. Last night, while testing music discs through my Sennheiser headphones (using the analog outs directly), I noticed something peculiar. While listening to CDs through the multi-channel output (main left & right) I noticed a very thin sounding center stage. Extreme left & right sounded fine. It was almost like there was an effect on this output. When I switched to the dedicated analog stereo outputs, this completely disappeared and the sound was fabulous. What's odd is that while listening to higher resolution media like SACD, this sound could not be reproduced on the multi-channel outputs. So, I'm noticing this oddity with compact discs only. This is not acceptable because I will be using the multi-channel analog outputs for the near future.

I performed more testing in the last 45 minutes or so. The peculiar sound that I was hearing last night? Well, I'm not hearing it anymore. Don't know why and I'm not asking.

While doing some tests on the sound quality of each set of outputs with multiple disc formats, I noticed a couple of things. The dedicated stereo output is more robust in sound quality. Whereas, the multi-channel output seems a bit laidback, as opposed to up front. I like the sound of the dedicated 2-channel output (I feel that it's much clearer - detailed - in a good way) but since I will be using the multi-channel output, I feel that I won't miss the dedicated outputs (as good as they are) because I actually prefer a slightly laid back presentation. The other thing that I noticed is that with the 83, you can really tell the difference between what format is playing. Great CD's sound great and poor CDs sound poor. Plus, what really surprised me, other than going from CD to SACD, was when I played an HDCD Disc. It was like I was listening to a higher resolution disc on par with DVD_Audio or SACD. Whenever I played HDCDs before, they've only slightly sounded better than a regular CD, if at all.

Between high resolution Audio/Video now, it's making it harder for me to listen/watch inferior product (i.e, CD & DVD). Bring on the higher resolution Blu-ray Audio!
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post #5861 of 38733
4/1/09 at 3:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by yarrumc View Post

In my case, I only see bars above 16, nothing below. To barely see 17, I had to adjust my brightness by +22 (default is 45). That seems quite high and was obviously washing out the screen. I went back and tried the S&M disc and found that I had to raise brightness by 10, not as much. It seemed to be acceptable, but might be a tad high, when viewing dark content (Hellboy 2). I watched several scenes and found that the adjusted brightness was acceptable, but not sure it is still correct. Oh great, now I have a mystery on my hands! I have also presented this to the guy that calibrated my TV, to get his opinion as well. Thanks.

If you can't see any of the data below 16 at any brightness setting, then your display (or player setup) is clipping BTB. If your display is expecting PC video levels, then you are going to have issues calibrating - your grayscale will never be correct when watching BDs with studio levels. Also, whenever you change brightness, recheck contrast (and vice versa).

larry
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post #5862 of 38733
4/1/09 at 4:21am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorro524a View Post

I was watching Planet Earth tonight and around 49:20 of the "Fresh Water" episode (disc 1)-- the scene with thousands of flying geese-- the player started stuttering. Both audio and video became real choppy until the scene was over.

I've only seen one mention of stuttering in this thread so far (with Baraka).

Anyone else have this problem?

I haven't tried (don't have) Planet Earth, but Baraka is one of the first discs I played and it was jaw-droppingly gorgeous with no playback problems. I'll try it again around the same point mentioned. At the time I was using auto-everything on the HDMI output to my 1080i RP CRT, playing the DTS-MA soundtrack with 2-ch mixdown out the stereo analog outputs.
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post #5863 of 38733
4/1/09 at 5:27am
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

This sounds a bit like a CSS error issue, one that we have dealt with in beta testing. Can't be certain though without looking at the disc. If you have the capability, try ripping the disc with DVDDecryptor or DVDShrink and see if you get any CSS error messages.

One other step you can try is to press the yellow button on the remote as soon as the disc loads and starts to play.

There's a copy protection scheme that uses deliberate CSS errors to prevent ripping the disc, and some players will puke on this. Oppo is aware of it, but I don't know if we have seen it on this particular series. It's very fixable with a firmware patch. I'll add that if you rip the disc to hard drive, ignoring the CSS errors, and re-burn it, it's fixed. But of course that would be illegal and you should never do that.

My understanding is that the Fair Use segment of copyright law allows for a safety copy along with changing formats and such to allow playing in other machines. It's when you put it up for sale or give/trade with others that the illegality occurs.

At least that's how I remember it...

---Jeff
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post #5864 of 38733
4/1/09 at 5:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobCrawford View Post

connected via HDMI directly to a Sanyo PLV-Z2 projector. ... Projector only has DVI, using an adaptor. Like I said, DVD works, so the projector is recognizing the HDMI / DVI signal.

It could well be the player, but if you can I would try a different display before returning it. The PLV-Z2 HDCP support is unreliable at best and I would say there's at least some chance it could be confusing the Oppo.
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post #5865 of 38733
4/1/09 at 5:42am
I sent an email to OPPO detailing what I'm hearing with the BDP-83 using the same discs I always have in the same room, same system etc. The audio playback of multi channel material is just so different from my other players...this was totally unexpected and to me, a real plus. So I asked them what they did different this time around. I have and use a 980 (this one was sent out some time ago to be modified for audio playback only) and I have a 983 but the modded 980 always blew away the 983. Plus I've tested or auditioned some other universal players...none equal the BDP-83 out of the box.

Basically they responded...well here is the cut and paste:
"In terms of audio performance, each generation of our players have been designed from the beginning to exceed the audio clarity of the previous generation. The more products we make, the tighter our response to audio clarity. We have also been getting help from independent third party manufacturers and personal who have helped us increase the audio performance of our players."

So does anyone know who these third parties are? Anyone know what internals as far as processor is being used? I'm just curious, thats all. I've not heard this sort of sound playback from a player that costs as little as the 83 does. I was considering adding a NAD M5 for SACD use but now....
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post #5866 of 38733
4/1/09 at 5:57am
Had BDP-83 for a week now. I have watched two movies with DTSHD-MA 7.1 and listened to several SACD's (DSOTM, Brother in Arms, etc). Picture quality is fantastic. I own Oppo 981 and I noticed my sacd's sound totally different on BDP-83 (is it DSD?). Overall, I am very happy with BDP-83, everything I am looking for.

My BDP-83 came with latest firmware. DVD-Audio still have problems playing MLP but not DTS or DD.

AV Receiver: ONKYO 906
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post #5867 of 38733
4/1/09 at 5:59am
Quote:
Originally Posted by toddthomas View Post

Thanks rdgrimes. You're right, according to the email I just received from Oppo. I hope they don't mind me quoting a portion of it here as yet another demonstration of their stellar support.

-----

It goes on to say the problem is known and will be fixed in a future firmware release.

Well if it is in fact the CSS error issue, you can rest assured it will be fixed very soon. It's a really stupid copy protection scheme that does nothing but trip up players. I've only seen it on BBC TV series.
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post #5868 of 38733
4/1/09 at 6:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorro524a View Post

Originally I was watching at 720P. I am able to reproduce it under source direct mode with 24fps both on and off.

It's very helpful if you state whether you're watching DVD or BD.

FWIW, the Planet Earth series is 60i and should not convert to 24p in the player. If it does then that would explain the stuttering. There's also no reason to be using Source Direct unless you have an external processor. Leave the player set to auto or 720p so you don't miss out on the player's excellent de-interlacing.
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post #5869 of 38733
4/1/09 at 6:04am
The Classe SSP-75 5.1 analog inputs are not processed in any way (other than volume).

I was able to get an improvement in lip-sync by lying to the Oppo about how far the speakers are from the listening location. The actual measurements are 12 feet from front, center and sub and 9 feet for the rears. I reduced the front, center and sub measurements to 3 feet and the rears to 0. This should have the effect of delaying the audio by about 25 ms and it improved lip-sync quite a bit. It's still not perfect.

Magnus

Quote:
Originally Posted by aluminumangel View Post

Ah, so i got it right and I am vidicated!

Seriously though, as I said, this is an issue that concerns me as I don't think I have an effective audio delay on my Pioneer Elite VSX-43TX. Does your Classe Pre-pro have delays built-in?

Again, I hope that OPPO helps us folks with older, non-HDMI, recievers, so we are able to compensate for the processing time on projectors.
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post #5870 of 38733
4/1/09 at 6:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Barry18025 View Post

I'm not the audio/videophile that some of you are, but I've been in the game for a while. I owned an Advent 201 cassette deck in the 70's, the original Carver Receiver in the 80's, and a Pioneer LD in the 90's.

I think it's very close to being a great machine. I have encountered problems with SDVD 24p. I turned it off per Oppo, who said they were working on it, and I found SDVD to be very, very good. So good, that I believe the quality of what you see really reflects the quality of the original disc mastering. And, I believe the number of DVD's I'll be replacing from my existing collection will be minimal. This is a machine you can live with, and spend your money buying new BD's, not replacing the DVD you replaced with LD after you got tired of your SVHS or VHS-HIFI or Beta.

In fact, all the issues or problems that I have encountered have a current work around until a fix is found and sent out as a FW update. I can't speak for the other issues, but none seem to me to be a global show-stopper. Certainly, they're no worse then any other company's machine. But, my guess is that Oppo is going to reduce the number of snaps, crackles, and pops before it's released to the world. This is a good thing. It's smart business because they don't want to be just like any other company. The more they fix now the more they will endear themselves to their new customers. Remember, the majority of people buying this machine are fleeing from other BD machines, and they are as tired as I am of FW updates.

How am I going to vote?

Watch this space!

Barry

+1, I still have my LD player and also had the Advent 201 cassette deck....
(flame suit on) I voted NO, the reason being is that though this deck is fine for the Videophiles on this forum, it is not ready for primetime (general public). I am sure that the next firmware (or two) will bring this player up to primetime status. The purpose of the 2nd EAP as I understood it was to make that particular distinction. Yes ready for most of us, but No not for the rest of the world.
I know that many of you are getting very impatient waiting for this product and it would be great if OPPO would release the player to you with a written disclaimer as in the 1st and 2nd EAP's. Simply because the majority of AVSer's are very tech savvy and have no problems doing firmware updates and are tolerant to the "whole cleaning up the product process".
The OPPO player when released will be the best universal Blu-ray player <$1000 (maybe $5000) definitely worth the wait.......
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post #5871 of 38733
4/1/09 at 6:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by HT_n_Me View Post

I sent an email to OPPO detailing what I'm hearing with the BDP-83 using the same discs I always have in the same room, same system etc. The audio playback of multi channel material is just so different from my other players...this was totally unexpected and to me, a real plus.

I have used Denon players -- 2900, 3930 to play mc discs for some time.

Obviously you believe the Oppo is better than your other players. Can you be more specific about what "so different" means?

I look forward to finding out for myself in a few weeks.

Thanks

Mike
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post #5872 of 38733
4/1/09 at 6:39am
I don't believe I've seen this discussed yet, and even though I try to follow everything in this thread, it is possible I missed:

I've seen no mention of what would happen if (say) 50% or more voted "no" in this round.

I would presume that Oppo intends to allow the EAPers to vote yes or no on a continual basis, such that anyone who votes "no" now could change that vote to "yes" based on a newly released FW update. In this way, unless things go poorly in a FW update, everyone who votes "no" will more than likely eventually vote "yes" once their problems are resolved, and when the 70% supermajority is attained, Oppo will release to the general public.

The other option is to formally close the second round once a new FW release happens, and reset all votes, and restart the voting. Would they release more players into a third round of EAPers at that point?

Or...Oppo could just take their ball and go home if too many people vote "no", and never release the player. Just kidding!! Hopefully that thought never even crosses their mind.

shinksma
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post #5873 of 38733
4/1/09 at 7:46am
Right now I'd vote no until these issues resolved:
1-DVDA matured
2-Disc vibration investigated
3-Lip sync issues

The last 2 may be unfair to blame Oppo, Im taking a few discs to stores this weekend to see how other players perfom. I'd say they are 95% there. The only thing that gives me pause is if there's new issue around the transport that required switching hdw.
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post #5874 of 38733
4/1/09 at 8:05am
OOPS, perhaps I voted yes too soon. I don't have my new receiver yet, so I'm plugged directly into my TV via HDMI.

I just did the firmware upgrade. I tried a Fleetwood Mac DVD-A ( the only one I have), the menu came up, but tracks wouldn't play. OK, so I figure this is still a preliminary DVD-A firmware, so I tried an SACD ( Dylan's Blond On Blond), and I'm getting distorted 1/2 speed audio. Any suggestions?

As far as I know, the SACD audio should play through my TV's HDMI input, despite the lousy quality, am I wrong?
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post #5875 of 38733
4/1/09 at 8:07am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Butler View Post

so I tried an SACD ( Dylan's Blond On Blond), and I'm getting distorted 1/2 speed audio. Any suggestions?

That's just Dylan at full speed.



Sorry, had to be said.

shinskma
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post #5876 of 38733
4/1/09 at 8:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by shinksma View Post

That's just Dylan at full speed.



Sorry, had to be said.

shinskma

Now that's funny
A man with such great talents for WRITING music, possibly could have benefited from some singing lessons long ago. Still a legend though...
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post #5877 of 38733
4/1/09 at 8:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Butler View Post

OOPS, perhaps I voted yes too soon. I don't have my new receiver yet, so I'm plugged directly into my TV via HDMI.

I just did the firmware upgrade. I tried a Fleetwood Mac DVD-A ( the only one I have), the menu came up, but tracks wouldn't play. OK, so I figure this is still a preliminary DVD-A firmware, so I tried an SACD ( Dylan's Blond On Blond), and I'm getting distorted 1/2 speed audio. Any suggestions?

As far as I know, the SACD audio should play through my TV's HDMI input, despite the lousy quality, am I wrong?

If you give some more info on how your system is setup, and whet settings you have selected in the player, it may help us diagnose your problem with the Dylan disc.
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post #5878 of 38733
4/1/09 at 8:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zorro524a View Post

I was watching Planet Earth tonight and around 49:20 of the "Fresh Water" episode (disc 1)-- the scene with thousands of flying geese-- the player started stuttering. Both audio and video became real choppy until the scene was over.

I've only seen one mention of stuttering in this thread so far (with Baraka).

Anyone else have this problem?

Absolutely. During Baraka it froze solid at ch. 18 01:12:24, then jumped to 01:16:40 after a bit. On a second pass through, it had various audio dropouts, freezes, and stuttering into ch. 19.
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post #5879 of 38733
4/1/09 at 8:31am
Thanks Smarty-Pants. I'm temporarily using the HDMI out to my 720p LG TV. I'm changing my audio system and won't have a proper set up for a week or two. I have the BDP set to auto for HDMI and regular CD's play fine (though sound quality is crappy, of course). It's the SACD that won't play right.
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post #5880 of 38733
4/1/09 at 8:40am
Do you have the SACD priority set correctly to just send a stereo signal to the TV? It may be forcing DSD via the HDMI, and your TV doesn't get that, although I would think it would just be noise or nothing if that's the case.
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