Curiousity . . . Flicker and Default GrayScale in Standard Mode at 1080p/24 on 5020FD - Page 5

I would assume that is because pioneer is only generating enough fake frames to get up to 60hz versus AMP and the other generating a lot more to get it up to 120hz.

dont feel like messing around with the table but the refresh rate is pretty simple.


input = 480i/p,720p,1080i
PC advance
72hz if film is detected
60hz for the rest of the PC modes

input = 1080p60
always 60hz

input = 1080p24
PC advance = 72hz

now here is the rub:
D-nice says PC off = 72hz,
PC standard and smooth = 60hz

People such as me and others in this thread it seems like:
standard = 72hz
PC off and smooth = 60hz

I just popped in Transformers again - since that's the disc I used last night - and realized I typed my original post backwards in where I was seeing "judder".

In PC Off the vertically scrolling credits show some judder and in PC Advance the vertically scrolling credits were moving smoothly. I think I said the reverse in my first post on the last page, but my observation still stands. The two modes are treating the same signal differently. If I assume PC Advance is doing what everyone thinks it does - works at 72Hz - then the judder I see in PC Off would be telecine judder and not 24p judder.

In any event I agree with the last part of the above quote. Comparing all of the modes tonight, using the scrolling end credits, PC Off and PC Smooth appear to have the same judder in the credits, while PC Standard and PC Advance appear to have the same lack of judder. Going by this I'd say that if PC Advance is working at 72Hz, then PC Standard would seem to be as well.

Same conclusion I came to, but don't have any facts to back it up. I continue to watch in PC "Off" for the greyscale changes though.

My eyes must be broken when it comes to this kind of stuff.. almost all of the modes look identical to me.

smooth doesn't always produce that "soap opera" effect that auto motion plus and similar technologies on 120Hz LCDs do, at least, not to my eyes. There are a few scenes that bring it out.. but it isn't every scene like I would have expected.

The Kuro sure is a weird beast.

I take it that the grayscale changes improve the picture enough to the point that it is worth giving up the more advanced motion processing?

I find myself wondering just how much better the set can possibly look and also has me wondering whether or not the calibration will be worth it. I really hope that it is worth every cent, otherwise I'll find myself quite disappointed.

Most people are actually hoping to find a condition that allows them to NOT use the motion processing with their grayscale calibration. The holy grail, I guess, is a mode that does proper 72Hz refresh using 3:3 pulldown on a 24p source (which is a scenario I'd consider to not have motion processing, ie. motion interpolation) but still allows for grayscale calibration via ControlCal.

The only mode we're pretty much 100% sure does 3:3 pulldown on 24p sources properly is PC Advance, unfortunately, that mode disables grayscale adjustments made via ControlCal. It was thought PC Off did proper 3:3 pulldown, but it's seeming like that may not be true, and that the only other mode that does it properly may be PC Standard.

I need to read back in the thread whether we've made a definitive determination about whether PC Standard overrides grayscale adjustments or not.

Michael St. Claire's photographic evidence of the grayscale shift when feeding standard 1080p/24, at least in my mind.. proves that 1080p/24 signals are treated differently than anything else.

I think things look fine with PC: off, personally.. as I'm not trained to spot those kind of things.. and I used a 60hz LCD for over a year.

It seems to be possible to get a set calibrated in PC: Advanced.. but most people don't do it because it only changes grayscale for that mode and not PC: Off, Standard or Smooth.

Most of the content that I watch on my TV that isn't a game is 1080p/24 blu-ray disc.. I don't have TV service and don't plan on getting it.. I watch downloaded HD tv shows on my HTPC (most of which are filmed at 24 fps), and my video card supports 1080p/24 output.

In my case, it wouldn't be a loss to have it done in advanced.. since I'd be comfortable leaving it in that mode. Only a couple days to wait until D-nice gets here.. and I'll see what he has to say on the subject.

Is it true you CAN calibrate for the PC Advance mode? It seems like that would be the ideal solution for pretty much everyone EXCEPT for those that want to use the motion interpolation of PC Smooth.

PC Advance should detect the source and do a 3:2 pulldown @ 60Hz refresh on non-24p sources and do a 3:3 pulldown @ 72Hz refresh on 24p sources, auto-selecting based on the source. The only thing you're missing in this situation is the motion interpolation of PC Smooth and for those of us that never plan to use it that's not really a big deal, so I'd be willing to do the grayscale adjustments in such a way that it only was active on PC Advance.

I'm assuming I'm not missing some interaction between the PC modes and the input selection or the Video mode (Movie, Optimum, etc.), but all of my inputs are HDMI non-computer sources, and I actually prefer the look of Movie movie mode on all of my sources (just my FIOS box and my PS3 playing Blu-Ray and PS3 games), so that's not really an issue for me.

That's the choice I'd make too, but for some reason I thought that you couldn't calibrate Advance. I'll have to read up on it some more and give it a shot.

Here's what D-Nice said about it over on the controlcal forums.. I don't know if this is the most recent information on the subject.. but I think having the most modes affected was the goal for calibrating with PC: Off or PC: Standard

http://www.controlcal.com/forum/show...2&postcount=18


The only question I would have in regard to this would be what happens if you send Advance something other than 1080p/24.. would it keep the modified grayscale or would it change? If it kept the modified grayscale, I'd be perfectly fine with it being done in advanced.

That was thought during the early ControlCal Non-Elite testing, in which I participated. Since then it's been revised. I posted about it in this very thread.

Honestly, I'd be fine even if it reverted back to default grayscale with a source other than 1080p/24. I'm more concerned with getting Blu-Ray playback (via PS3) as close to reference as possible while still supporting 72Hz, and I'm not too concerned with being anal retentive about getting my Fios TV box and my PS3 games (non-1080p/24) as close as possible. I can live with just having a good setting for having proper 72Hz support for 1080p/24 with calibrated/adjusted grayscale, and having my other sources look good but not as close to reference as the Blu-Ray playback. Honestly, games and broadcast TV varies in quality so much I don't see the point in trying to get to some reference with them anyway.

Agree 100%. I see no point in trying to calibrate broadcast TV. NTSC(never the same color)

Speaking of "Sync of Beauty" some have mentioned from http://www.demo-world.eu/trailers/hi...n-trailers.php .....first I felt like that was time wasted because it didn't have much of anything but some dude ballet dancing and a girl playing the violin. No big deal, I was just expecting beautiful landscapes, mountains, forests, water, etc. In fact, I found that clip, put out by Pioneer, to be bad for the TV showing its flaws!! So it could be very useful in testing of the Kuro. The only problems with it that I saw, was hideous motion! The motion was jerky and stuttering every time that ballet dancer moved certain ways! Those areas of that clip with the bad motion could be used to possibly test PC modes. So I'm curious to know what others have found out about this.

The other horrible area, was the moon. The first time the moon was shown it was a small crescent moon in the center of the TV, and I was floored by the obvious blatant halo/blooming/comet tailing effect! The moon appeared to be "bleeding" all over the right side of it! So also check that part out. It happens again on another moon shot, not the huge full moon but after that.

I'm just shocked that Pioneer would release a trailer like that, that so easily showed the flaws of a TV they are trying to sell.

That's the dichotomy. That's the "problem" of having the set calibrated, and why I probably never will. The PQ looks perfect to me now, so why do some calibration that will cause you to lose the ability to use all available PC modes with the calibrated picture?

Well, I'll be sure to post back with my opinion after it is finished.

Yes, the more info the better........I guess.

? How could you 'lose' anything by calibrating?

If you don't calibrate then you in fact do "lose the ability to use any available PC modes with the calibrated picture.".

Assuming the worse case scenario of what this thread postulates ( i.e. PC:Off runs at 60hz on 1080p/24p which is under debate) then PureCinema:Off or PureCinema:Smooth will play Blu-ray movies (which is almost exclusively what this applies to) at what some consider a less "smooth" motion than PC:Advanced would during scenes where that matters.

Of course you could always just select PC:Advanced and get the same result that would have if you had not calibrated your display at all. So nothing lost there.

At the same time all other signals will still get the full benefit of your calibration. Most all television shows and games will be at 30fps/60fps or 480i/480p/720p/24fps or 1080i/24fps.

In point of fact if the motion processing with Pure Cinema: Off at 60Hz (hypothetically) really bothers you on Blu-ray (or hd-dvd) then you should be able to set your playback device to 1080i/24p and still get your 72Hz processing on Blu-ray?

I really shouldn't care.. as I'm quite happy with how blu-ray looks with PC disabled.. I just don't like to think I'm missing out on the best of both worlds

You misquoted me. Look again: "......., so why do some calibration that will cause you to lose the ability to use all available PC modes with the calibrated picture?" I'm not saying you totally lose the ability to use all modes. It's a known fact that you won't have the calibrated picture (MGS) in Advance mode. Therefore, as per my statement; you lose the ability to use the Advanced mode (and possibly Standard in some cases), with the calibrated results. That's a choice: you either have the benefits of the MGS with limited PC modes, no "Advance", or, if you need to use Advance you won't have the benefits of the MGS. You can't have both--MSG with the Advance mode.



Sure there's something lost! You lost your MGS calibrated results in Advance!



But what about content not on disk? I say again, I haven't even put mine in its permanent location yet. I don't even have the STB or BD player hooked up yet. Just basic cable in its temp location. So I can't test any scenarios yet to see if there would ever even be a case when I would need PC Advance. But as others have mentioned, and like I've said in the past, I just don't like the idea of missing out on the best of both worlds. "You can't have your cake and eat it too" with this current problem of no calibrated picture in Advance.

All I'm saying is I would hate to put some kind of content on Advance and say, "wow, the motion processing and judder looks much better here on Advance. But it's a shame the colors are now not as good as the other PC modes and the whites aren't as good".

I was wondering too.

Bumping again - hoping for an update from either Andrmgic or D-Nice himself.

Is D-Nice even subscribed to this thread? I can't recall if he's even posted here on this thread.

I borrowed a device from the guys in the engineering lab of the TV network that I work at. It has a photoelectric cell that you point at a monitor and will give a measurement of the refresh rate when hooked up to a frequency counter.

I have a Pioneer 09 Bluray player that can easily change output resolutions on the fly. This feeds a Pioneer Elite 111 display. (I assume Pure Cinema acts the same on Elites and non Elites?) I sampled 6 different 1080p 24 movie discs and got the same results for each.

Here are my Pure Cinema refresh frequency results for each setting.


Advance
480i - 71.93 Hz
480p - 71.93 Hz
720p - 71.93 Hz
1080i - 71.93 Hz
1080p - 59.94 Hz
1080p 24 - 71.93 Hz


Smooth
480i - 59.94 Hz
480p - 59.94 Hz
720p - 59.94 Hz
1080i - 59.94 Hz
1080p - 59.94 Hz
1080p 24 - 59.94 Hz


Standard
480i - 59.94 Hz
480p - 59.94 Hz
720p - 59.94 Hz
1080i - 59.94 Hz
1080p - 59.94 Hz
1080p 24 - 71.93 Hz


Off
480i - 59.94 Hz
480p - 59.94 Hz
720p - 59.94 Hz
1080i - 59.94 Hz
1080p - 59.94 Hz
1080p 24 - 59.94 Hz

Thank's for your testing. That puts some misconceptions to rest, I think.

Did you perceive any difference in playback performance between Standard and Advanced with a 1080p24 input?

great work

btw, what is the sensor brand and model?

It is a "home made" unit, built by one of the gentlemen in the engineering lab.

Thank you Bogney! That is exactly what we thought, but couldn't prove!

So between this and testing when ControlCal adjustments stick and when they don't we've pretty much gotten to the point where there is no way to make ControlCal adjustments that will be active when you're playing a 1080/24p signal at 72Hz?

On a non-Elite anyway.