Curiousity . . . Flicker and Default GrayScale in Standard Mode at 1080p/24 on 5020FD - Page 6

yep

thanks bogney

You're welcome. I would still be interested in D-Nice's (and others) opinion of the measurements. There is always a chance I could have overlooked something.

So what did D-Nice show you?

That's a good point, and I have heard that the PC modes are a bit different between the Elite's and NE's, and also their effect can differ from TV to TV! I wish someone could clarify that. Thanks for posting that info.

This is assuming that PureCinema actually detects 1080p24 encoded content and changes the refresh rate to 72Hz, right?

Say if you are feeding a signal that is 720p60 and it was not encoded at 24p, then would it still change to 72Hz when set to Advanced?

I am unsure about the whole PureCinema technology detecting 24p encoding within a stream that set to 60Hz...

That's the way it's supposed to work.


It shouldn't, but I just sent a pm to Bogney Baux suggesting that he confirm that by measuring the actual refresh on native 720p60 content (like sports or live news) from ABC, FOX, and/or ESPN.

Excellent.

Thanks for posting your test results.


Are all of the other input signals 60fps? Is 24fps only available at 1080p resolution?

Also, can you test the refresh rate you get on the HDMI Input with PC Mode signal type?

Bogney's post prompted me to do some testing of my own. As some background, I had a 5010 for two weeks. I've had the 5020 since July. I think I might be able to identify the source of the confusion as to what PC Off (versus PC Standard) does when fed a 24fps signal at 1080p (I'm talking from a Blu-ray player - Panny 35 in my case - set to output at 24fps).

My 5010 had a dithering problem when in 72hz. I'm talking massive dithering. Which made it pretty easy to determine when 72hz processing was engaged. On the 5010, feeding a 24fps signal resulted in 72hz processing for PC Advanced and PC Off. Not for PC Standard.

On my 5020, I took a long look at scrolling credits (my favorite way to see 3:2 judder) last night. Of course, PC Advanced engaged 72hz and did not display any 3:2 judder. PC Off did not engage 72hz processing - 3:2 judder was visible. PC Standard had no 3:2 judder - it was doing 72hz processing. These results conform to Bogney's results. I was surprised.

In summary, PC Off does not equal PC Advanced when fed a 24fps signal. But PC Standard does. I think all the confusion comes from Pioneer making a change in which setting did what (essentially Off and Standard were switched) between the 8th and 9th generations.

Anyway, that's my report. Feel free to ignore it.

-R

Yes, 60 fields for the interlaced and 60 frames for the progressive.



Yes, at least in this case.

I had to return the device to the lab. I may borrow it again in the future to do your test.

Please keep us posted, it's a most useful tool for not only this thread but every other Kuro thread. Thanks.

Interesting note about the 5010.. that might explain it..

D-Nice refuses to discuss this. I tried and tried, pointed him to Bogney's post, he won't discuss it.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16061377
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post16061423

When it comes to pure cinema modes, just leave it turned OFF.

And then never have any 72hz benefit? (on just the Elites or both?)

FYI, someone just posted this on one of the Kuro threads which should clear this up: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post16068240 (That's my reply to it). So (Bogney et al), it would seem there is a difference between Elites and NEs with regards to PC modes' refresh rates. At least in the "OFF" mode.

first time I have heard this

As I stated in my reply to him, first time for me as well.

I guess everyone expects you to search through entire threads (with this forum's severely lacking search function), and weed through all the thousands of non-relevant BS posts that only mention a term with no other info for which you're searching, consuming what could amount to days, in order to find a specific post with a specific answer. When it all (both time and confusion and other BS) could be avoided by someone "showing the kindness" and simply taking 5 seconds and answering the post with the info or simply a link. I don't get it.

A forum is supposed to be where users help each other in any way they can. NOT where users can be chastised or met with uncalled for hostility. It's unfortunate the latter exists here, but this forum is unfortunately no exception.

Thanks (finally) to "syk69", it's been answered.

I see that you're located on Long Island. I'm in NYC, so if you ever find yourself in the city with your refresh rate sensor, you have an open invitation to test my non-elite 6020.

This is more or less purely of academic interest to me since I almost always feed my monitor 1080p60 through my Edge processor. I do, however, pass through 1080p24 unmolested from the PS3 so a mode that allows 72Hz refresh with modified grayscale would be cool.

As others have stated, visual observation of telecine judder isn't very reliable, although I do think that with the right source material, selected to exagerate judder issues, I could probably detect it pretty consistently.
Specially with a direct A/B comparison.

I don't know if it was ever clearly delineated previously that D-Nice had tested this using a NE.

However, as I posted earlier, my observations match Reagan's from a few posts back and seem t conflict with this information. Just looking at what visually is on screen, PC:Standard and PC:Advance look alike and PC:Off DOES NOT look like PC:Advance.

Since we don't know the manufacture date of the set the original tests were done with it is possible something has changed with later-date manufactured 5020s, but that would be odd.

I wouldn't blame D-Nice for any of this, of course. I lay the blame strictly at Pioneer for locking down these sets so unnecessarily that if you can't even properly scratch the videophile's "tinkerer" itch then no wonder they couldn't get enough of a market elsewhere to stay in the business.

I agree, I think off is 60hz when feed 24fps input or at least on my own 5020.

Just that was the first time him using a specific analyzer to test for 72hz instead of just taking his word for it.

This is getting crazy. Clint S, you are going a little overboard.

Let's look at the facts:

1) D-Nice is the master of Kuro's. His word is that PC:Off will do 72. He has tested it with his equipment.
2) Some other guy posted some numbers saying that PC:Off does 60hz with some homemade testing equipment that he made.
3) When I switch between Off and Advanced I do not see one bit of difference. I can tell 60hz from 72hz very easily on a computer monitor.

I'm going with D-Nice on this one unless I can actually see the testing equipment and test for myself.

your welcome when all said and done you got one of the best tv's for picture quality, enjoy it

if you think you're getting 60hz when PC off then maybe you should get d-nice to go calibrate your tv and leave it looking awesome and i'm sure he can test out your refresh rate if you pay him removing your doubt of believing him in the 1st place

as far as I know he does not travel to Socal

If we're going to talk facts, at least try to get the ones you're citing correct. "Some other guy" never claimed to build the equipment himself. He borrowed it from a television station technician, and said it was "homemade" in that one of the technicians may have built it. Being an electrical engineer myself, the design of building a device that uses an optical sensor to detect regularly oscillating light output levels is hardly rocket science with the right tools and parts. I do wonder why someone in such a position would build one rather than just buying one off of the shelf.


When was your set manufactured? The difference between Off and Advance is pretty obvious to me, and whether something changed during the manufacturing run (ie. earlier sets show one behavior, and later sets show another) is one hypothesis, but again, as an engineer I can't see any good reason for this to have happened, but I've got no other explanation.

Sounds good. The broadcast facility I work at is located in Midtown Manhattan. Hopefully I can borrow the device from the engineering lab and use it on your 6020 in the next couple of weeks.
I will probably contact you by private message sometime next week.

TV was manufactured July 08. Do you have anything specific that you think I should look for that you see as an obvious difference between Off and Advanced? Specific scenes or movies?

Again, I'm going to side with D-Nice and put the burden of proof on someone that states something different. Posting some numbers on a message board doesn't cut it for me.