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Curiousity . . . Flicker and Default GrayScale in Standard Mode at 1080p/24 on 5020FD - Page 3

post #61 of 268
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwolf View Post

That's exactly why the 72Hz mode on the Pioneers is important to some. It looks smoother because it repeats each frame 3 times. The 24p judder is there but it's consistent. The telecine judder is uneven and makes things appear to jump at consistent but uneven intervals. Most people will only notice it during slow camera movements. A lot of people say to look at the credits, but I think it's easier to spot on pans and dollies. Find a scene where the camera zooms, dollies, or pans. Put PC in "Off" and then switch to "Standard", then hit the "tools" button on the remote to toggle before and after. If you can see the difference, you'll see it then. Then compare to "Advanced". I find that "Advanced" and "Standard" act the same and "Off" shows the 3:2 judder.

Warning: If you've never been bothered by or seen the judder, then you may not want to go looking for it. Especially if your the type of person that can't turn that incredibly critical part of your brain on and off.

Seriously - you're reminding me of the grave mistake I made when I learned to appreciate the differences between blended and single malt scotch! Wish I hadn't learned that lesson!

As McGruff says, "knowing is half the battle." Once you know about a problem with your screen, knowing can be the harder half!
post #62 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff_DML View Post

basically that seems to match with the modes that the TV is in 72hz refresh mode. So it seems modified grayscale is not used during 72hz.


It has been reported that UMR found that OFF does correctly display at 72 with no anomalies, which matches D-Nice's statement. The Home Theater Magazine review says the same thing.
post #63 of 268
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackman View Post

It has been reported that UMR found that OFF does correctly display at 72 with no anomalies, which matches D-Nice's statement. The Home Theater Magazine review says the same thing.

Interesting - can you point us to his post on that subject by any chance? I think we all want to believe that. Unfortunately, regardless of whether we all can believe that, it still doesn't answer our original question of why (with a 24 fps signal) the flickering only shows up in "Standard" and "Advanced," and why the calibrated grayscale also doesn't work in those two modes.
post #64 of 268
UMR = Jeff Meier at AccucalHD, a leading ISF calibrator who has set up over a 100 9G Kuros.

I agree that it doesn't anwer your question but isn't the question practically moot if OFF displays 1080p/24 correctly at 72hz while keeping the adjusted grayscale?
post #65 of 268
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackman View Post

UMR = Jeff Meier at AccucalHD, a leading ISF calibrator who has set up over a 100 9G Kuros.

I agree that it doesn't anwer your question but isn't the question practically moot if OFF displays 1080p/24 correctly at 72hz while keeping the adjusted grayscale?

I guess I'd say yes and no. On the one hand, practically speaking, yes it would satisfy many people to know that they were able to display at 72 Hz with the calibrated grayscale. But on the other hand, this has crossed into the realm of academic interest for some of us by now, so I think there are those who would very much like to get to the bottom of it one way or another. At least I would.

I wonder how he confirmed that. UMR - if you're out there - we'd love to hear your methods.
post #66 of 268
Digital Video Essentials: HD Basics has some test footage in chapter 6 (restaurant scene) that may be helpful for analysis of the modes:

Quote:


At the beginning of this sequence, where the camera passes by the food, it is being pulled at a rate that makes the 2-3 motion jutter noticeable. This condition should improve with the use of a 24, 48 or 72 frame display.

If your player has A/B repeat, you might want to set this shot up to start looping, then cycle through the modes. I do not have DVE HD yet (been using the free HD 709 disc download for patterns).
post #67 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackman View Post

It has been reported that UMR found that OFF does correctly display at 72 with no anomalies, which matches D-Nice's statement. The Home Theater Magazine review says the same thing.

Which is what many of us always believed, because we read it here. I never thought to take a second look, because I've never and continue not to be, offended by telecine judder. Do the test yourself and you may find that the judder is only there during "Off" and to a lesser extent "Smooth". Scraps628 said it best, We all "want" 72Hz to engage in "off", but it's not looking that way in practice.

Great! Now I'm starting to sound like Video313(no offense if you're reading).
post #68 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwolf View Post

Which is what many of us always believed, because we read it here. I never thought to take a second look, because I've never and continue not to be, offended by telecine judder. Do the test yourself and you may find that the judder is only there during "Off" and to a lesser extent "Smooth". Scraps628 said it best, We all "want" 72Hz to engage in "off", but it's not looking that way in practice.

Great! Now I'm starting to sound like Video313(no offense if you're reading).

You may be right and I will honestly admit that I am not judder sensitive. Still, I understand some judder will occur even at a mutiple of 24. It could be that Advanced operates a little like Smooth to provide an extra judder reduction (or not - as some have reported worse results with Advanced in certain films) beyond merely repeating the frames at a even multiple. Jeff/UMR or D-Nice can comment better. Since Jeff is an engineer and D-Nice gets his info from Pio engineers, and Home Theater Mag is pretty well respected, I am inclined to believe them. In any event, a correct greyscale is much more important to me than judder reduction - others may feel differently.
post #69 of 268
Here is the post excerpt I recall re the 9Gs and Advanced:

"Originally Posted by tigerfan33
Had my 151 calibrated by Jeff (umr) yesterday. All I can say is WOW!!!!
I think I said that word at least 10-15 times the three hours Jeff was here. Jeff did my Sammy 650 last year so I know how professional and what a friendly guy he is. I still have the 650 (which has a awesome picture btw) but after he did his magic on my 151 he took my hd to another level. I had been using the PURE mode before he arrived. I can tell you that out of the box this TV is the best I had ever seen. When Jeff got through with it he made it better!!!
I had him calibrate ISF day only because unlike some, I never watch TV with no light. I had 32fl. before calibration and now it is 40fl. That made a difference. The colors pop like never before and with the extra brightness, the blacks (believe it not) are so much blacker!!
I asked him to give me advice on the PureCinema. He said the ONLY gripe he has with this set (like others have posted, he has a 151 also along with a pretty decent fp.) is that the PC does not work right. It does cause motion artifacts on BR and cable or satellite. He turned PC off as he has his and will advise others to do the same."


By the way, UMR calibrated my 8G in Advanced and grayscale was not impacted. I realize that means nothing re the present discussion.
post #70 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackman View Post

In any event, a correct greyscale is much more important to me than judder reduction

I agree 100%. I'm still interested in building knowledge and all of us learning to get the most out of our displays that we possibly can, but stuff like input lag and judder reduction is very low on the list of my priorities compared to image fidelity.
post #71 of 268
Did extensive testing with 1080p content tonight. My grayscale for Off, Standard and Smooth is all the same. All three had the adjusted settings. Advanced is the only one that has the original factory gray scale.
post #72 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by timothydog76 View Post

Did extensive testing with 1080p content tonight. My grayscale for Off, Standard and Smooth is all the same. All three had the adjusted settings. Advanced is the only one that has the original factory gray scale.

Even when fed a 24p source? What is your manufacture date and firmware version?
post #73 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by timothydog76 View Post

Standard isn't optimal for 24p content anyway so it's not a big deal. I still am pretty sure I've seen 24p stuff on Standard and Off and didn't notice a difference in grayscale. I will check soon.

But if it's the Advance mode that's 'optimal', that's the big deal because no MGS for it.
post #74 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clint S. View Post

But if it's the Advance mode that's 'optimal', that's the big deal because no MGS for it.

Only if Off doesn't refresh 24 fps at 72hz, which is the subject of the ongoing uncertainty.
post #75 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwolf View Post

Even when fed a 24p source? What is your manufacture date and firmware version?

Yes, 24p content. I'm using the non-upgraded firmware. Mfg. date is July 2008.
post #76 of 268
I found D-Nice's synopsis of the PC modes:

"Originally Posted by D-Nice
72Hz will still work for 1080p24 sources when you set Pure Cinema to "Off".

The panel doesn't run @ 72Hz while Pure Cinema is set to "Standard".

Use Pure Cinema "Standard" for 1080p60/1080i/720p/480i/p and use Pure Cinema "Off" for 1080p24 sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice
Your panel will display a 1080p/24 signal @ 72Hz (3:3 pulldown) when you set Pure Cinema to Off or Advance. Setting Pure Cinema to Standard will show every single input signal @ 60Hz with 3:2 pulldown. Pure Cinema Smooth will present every single input signal @ 60Hz with frame interpolation (zero pulldown and a "soap opera" effect like 120Hz LCDs)."
post #77 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by timothydog76 View Post

Yes, 24p content. I'm using the non-upgraded firmware. Mfg. date is July 2008.

Well THIS is really strange. My mfg. date is also July 2008, non-upgraded firmware. Yet my set absolutely 100% does not use the adjusted greyscale on the Standard PureCinema setting when feeding it 1080p/24. I'm going to try to repeat the test soon and take photos at each step to document the process.
post #78 of 268
Photo documentation of the effect. Here's what I did:

1) Adjusted greyscale with controlcal. Carefully verified all settings, including that my player was at 1080i and that controlcal sent the input codes for Movie mode and PureCinema = off. Shifted the greyscale to the green to make it very obvious and not subtle.

2) Changed player to output 24fps. Verified that input was 24hz (did the trick where you temporarily switch the input from Video to Personal Computer):

24hz pic

3) Put display in movie mode:

movie mode pic

4) Went through all four PureCinema settings:

off pic
standard pic
smooth pic
advanced pic

End result? Adjusted greyscale only works in Off and Smooth PureCinema modes when feeding a 1080p/24 input.
post #79 of 268
Exact same results I get with a Sept '08 manufacture date and original firmware. Thanks for going to the trouble to document it with photos.
post #80 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by Trackman View Post

I found D-Nice's synopsis of the PC modes:

"Originally Posted by D-Nice
72Hz will still work for 1080p24 sources when you set Pure Cinema to "Off".

The panel doesn't run @ 72Hz while Pure Cinema is set to "Standard".

Use Pure Cinema "Standard" for 1080p60/1080i/720p/480i/p and use Pure Cinema "Off" for 1080p24 sources.

Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice
Your panel will display a 1080p/24 signal @ 72Hz (3:3 pulldown) when you set Pure Cinema to Off or Advance. Setting Pure Cinema to Standard will show every single input signal @ 60Hz with 3:2 pulldown. Pure Cinema Smooth will present every single input signal @ 60Hz with frame interpolation (zero pulldown and a "soap opera" effect like 120Hz LCDs)."

Can someone make a matrix chart for this?
post #81 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwolf View Post

Exact same results I get with a Sept '08 manufacture date and original firmware. Thanks for going to the trouble to document it with photos.

Maybe somebody could document this that isn't having the issue? Make sure and verify the 24hz input using the trick of temporarily changing the input to Personal Computer, then back to Video.
post #82 of 268
My 111FD has a subtle flicker in bright scenes and I was testing with Baraka and with anything but Advanced I could see a flicker but Advanced seemed to remove it. I will go back and double check this later.
post #83 of 268
Advanced gives a better picture, it is 72hz, it makes the image true to the 24p original, it also gives the films judder on moving objects...that is just how it is.

Smooth is 60hz...it makes the 24p look smoother, it is actually not as good, but yet some may interpret the reduction of judder, as a reduction in flicker.

Just set you darn tv the way you want it. If the 24p of a movie theatre bothers you, make it fakey and enable smooth. The judder goes away, it looks more fluid, but at he cost of picture vibrancy,(and realism to the original content)

As for the greyscale. I can spot the difference between a modified greyscale and one that is not. In my set with advanced on, if i change the greyscale, it DOES change.

Here is a tip.

Enable isf day/night modes as per control cal settings and watch it. If you don't like the 24p judder...well that is the owners problem, not the tvs.

As for proffessional opinion...advanced is best. All reviewers that pick the kuro as number 1 int he world tested in that mode.

Maybe 24p isn't for everyone...a 240hz sony might make one happier. The rest of us will stay the course with our 9gs.

Also note that just because it is in 60fps mode...doesn't mean it is in 60hz...it is 72hz with 60 fps. So all of this is about fps aka judder, not flicker or strobing. The cam corder is showing thing not unlike a timing light for strobe...you are interpreting the cam corder data all wrong. Toss the freaking cam corder away, and use you eyes. If you like smooth...you prefer less judder or 3:2 pulldown for fast moving scenes, vs. a 3:3 pulldown and 24p actual. End of story. Dnice knows this stuff...he is not getting involved likely because it is beyond hope to deal with this rediculous mess...itis a simple 2 sentence answer that he already gave. end of storey.
post #84 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplemath View Post

Also note that just because it is in 60fps mode...doesn't mean it is in 60hz...it is 72hz with 60 fps.

This is confusing...How do you get 60fps, which was originally 24fps to refresh at 72Hz without doing 3:3 pulldown? I could see that with smooth mode, maybe, since it does frame interpolation but I've not read anything that indicates that smooth mode ever runs at 72Hz

I'm not sure why people are taking this issue so personally, I find it an interesting technical puzzle. My eyes, and the testing I've done with the limited tools at my disposal, tell me that OFF and Smooth do not refresh at 72 Hz but retain modified grayscale, while Standard and Advance do refresh at 72Hz albeit with the original grayscale.

Does it make a huge difference either way? Probably not. But I would still like to be able to understand why some people are getting different results...

Please note that my observations are strictly for a verified 24p source.
post #85 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplemath View Post

Advanced gives a better picture, it is 72hz, it makes the image true to the 24p original, it also gives the films judder on moving objects...that is just how it is.

Smooth is 60hz...it makes the 24p look smoother, it is actually not as good, but yet some may interpret the reduction of judder, as a reduction in flicker.

Just set you darn tv the way you want it. If the 24p of a movie theatre bothers you, make it fakey and enable smooth. The judder goes away, it looks more fluid, but at he cost of picture vibrancy,(and realism to the original content)

As for the greyscale. I can spot the difference between a modified greyscale and one that is not. In my set with advanced on, if i change the greyscale, it DOES change.

Here is a tip.

Enable isf day/night modes as per control cal settings and watch it. If you don't like the 24p judder...well that is the owners problem, not the tvs.

As for proffessional opinion...advanced is best. All reviewers that pick the kuro as number 1 int he world tested in that mode.

Maybe 24p isn't for everyone...a 240hz sony might make one happier. The rest of us will stay the course with our 9gs.

Also note that just because it is in 60fps mode...doesn't mean it is in 60hz...it is 72hz with 60 fps. So all of this is about fps aka judder, not flicker or strobing. The cam corder is showing thing not unlike a timing light for strobe...you are interpreting the cam corder data all wrong. Toss the freaking cam corder away, and use you eyes. If you like smooth...you prefer less judder or 3:2 pulldown for fast moving scenes, vs. a 3:3 pulldown and 24p actual. End of story. Dnice knows this stuff...he is not getting involved likely because it is beyond hope to deal with this rediculous mess...itis a simple 2 sentence answer that he already gave. end of storey.

If you read the thread and actually understood it you wouldn't be posting this. I'm pretty sure all of us that are actually contributing information to the thread, perfectly understand what judder, 24p, 60Hz, 3:2 pulldown are. None of us are asking for 120 or 240hz interpolation. Perhaps it is you that isn't understanding.

Why are some people so rude when they obviously don't know as much as they think they do?
post #86 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwolf View Post

If you read the thread and actually understood it you wouldn't be posting this. I'm pretty sure all of us that are actually contributing information to the thread, perfectly understand what judder, 24p, 60Hz, 3:2 pulldown are. None of us are asking for 120 or 240hz interpolation. Perhaps it is you that isn't understanding.

Why are some people so rude when they obviously don't know as much as they think they do?

the camcorder is 60fps.....so flicker on a camcorder is a 60fps cam strobing on a 72hz screen.

the 24p is judder and not flicker whiler in 72hz. 60hz gives the flicker with less judder on 24p
post #87 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplemath View Post

the camcorder is 60fps.....

My camcorder is 1080p 24fps. What was the point again?
post #88 of 268
your cam should strobe on smooth then and be better on advanced? the other fellows cam was 60. It is hard to be consistant with too many variables between tests. sorry for the cam mixup. i'll look back for your cam results vs the other guys.

the other factor is elite vs non elite. different settings to choose from

I was certain that in computer mode, it did not support 1080p as well. opps pc is pure cinema and not pc mode.

In isf modes the 72hz is enguaged in off.
post #89 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by simplemath View Post

your cam should strobe on smooth then and be better on advanced? the other fellows cam was 60. It is hard to be consistant with too many variables between tests. sorry for the cam mixup. i'll look back for your cam results vs the other guys.

the other factor is elite vs non elite. different settings to choose from

I was certain that in computer mode, it did not support 1080p as well.

In isf modes the 72hz is enguaged in off.

People are not testing this in PC mode, they are just checking that the TV is receiving a 24p signal(the only way to do this), then switching back to video mode. Also we are not talking about Elites, we are specifically talking about non-elites(5020 in the title).

I input a 24p source to the TV. If I set my camera to it's 24p shooting mode and then a shutter speed that is a multiple of 24(ie 24 or 48), I get flickering in "Off" and "Smooth". If I set my camera to 60i mode and a shutter speed that is a multiple of 60, I get flickering in "Standard" and "Advanced". I can also see telecine judder in "Off" and "Smooth", but not in "Standard" and "Advanced". Notice I say telecine judder and not 24P motion judder, I know the difference. I even said in the non elite thread that I don't believe this constitutes as fact because of all the variables, but that doesn't stop me from believing it.

I don't mind the telecine judder and for me the differences are minimal. I don't want frame interpolation. I don't care if I'm right or wrong. I leave mine to "Off" even though I'm convinced it's not 72Hz. I'm just interested in knowing the facts.

Just my opinions, I can't speak for anyone else.
post #90 of 268
Quote:
Originally Posted by bmwolf View Post

I've done this test using my 24p HDV camcorder and I get similar results to Video313. With a 24p source, If I set the shutter to 1/24 or 1/48 of a second I don't get flickering in standard and advanced. If I set the shutter to 1/60 of a second I get the opposite; flickering in standard and advanced. This combined with watching credits for far to long, has led me to believe that 72hz mode is engaged in standard and advanced, and not during off or smooth. I can't prove it as fact and it goes against what I've read and thought in the past... so take that for what it's worth.

This sounds very reasonable. So why in this case is off not refaulting to 72hz on a 24p signal is the question.

Perhaps it has something to do with pure mode, vs optimum mode, vs. isf day.

if you could test in those 3 modes. I believe not all of those modes have the default 72hz in off, but rather off is = to advanced.

1 other tidbit. now that i know it is a 5020. I am pretty sure the default to 72hz in off mode is elite only. and not your set. dnice might have assumed an elite, as i did.
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