Dolby Pro Logic IIz - Page 2

It looks like the Onkyo 607 still only has 7 amplifiers, so no 9.1. But maybe when the higher-end models are announced we'll get all channels simultaneously at a reasonable price point (i.e. considerably less than Yamaha's Z11!).

Very good point. Just like 1080i, 1080p, 1080p/24fps, 1080p/24fps 120hz, and now 1080p/24fps 240hz. It means that you can get good 50" HDTV's for <$1000.00. They just keep on with planned obsolescence, like computers and such...

I'm wondering what type of listening differences would result in using Dolby's Front Height speaker configuration vs. a Center Height speaker vs. a 'Voice of God' ceiling mounted speaker(s) for IIz? Has anyone found a white paper describing IIz processing?
From the information I've been able to dig up its seems that height is only processed from Ls & Rs (left & right surround) and in IIx also Lrs & Rrs (Left/right rear surround.) It's non-directional, uncorrelated and amplitude filtered. Sound suspiciously to me like 6.1 center back surround (in phase and equal information in the Ls & Rs...) This is possibly where IIz encoding is done. Maybe if run my 6.1 center back channel to ceiling speakers/upper front speakers I could get pseudo-IIz! LOL I'm more inclined to think that ceiling mounted speakers would be more effective for IIz if you want to give more localization to overhead sounds better (ie plane flyover.) Personally I think 5.1/7.1/IIx is sufficient for general ambiant sound. The front height directs probably most of audio over the listener's head to reflect off ceiling/rear with varying results due to room size/shape etc. May have desired dispersed effect but is that what you want from a height channel?

From Dolby.com: "Because it processes only nondirectional sounds for the height channels, Dolby Pro Logic IIz maintains the integrity of the source mix and the effects are always appropriate to the material."
"Dramatic alternative listening perspective for installations that can't accommodate back surround speakers"
"Functions with original stereo or multichannel sources"
"With Dolby Pro Logic IIz, developers can encode specific height information in the z-axis. "
"Dolby Pro Logic IIz processes low-level, uncorrelated informationsuch as ambience and some amorphous effects like rain or windand directs it to the front height speakers."

From another webboard posting:

Supports the following upmixed output configurations based on 5.1 sources with independent Ls and Rs channels:
5.1 to 7.1 Height [Ls, Rs to Ls, Rs, Lvh, and Rvh]
5.1 to 9.1 [Ls, Rs to Ls, Rs, Lrs, Rrs, Lvh, and Rvh]
Note: For 5.1-channel sources, Dolby Pro Logic IIz height extensions operate only on the Ls and Rs channels; L, C, R, and LFE channels are bypassed.

Because new formats (such as Blu-ray Disc) allow content to contain up to 7.1 discrete channels from Dolby Digital Plus and Dolby TrueHD audio programs, the height extensions support 7.1 Back sources and offer the following upmixed output configurations:
7.1 Back to 7.1 Height [Ls, Rs, Lrs, and Rrs to Ls, Rs, Lvh, and Rvh]

In this vein, it occurs to me that Yamaha might have a possibly-not-so-minor problem in repurposing their Front Presence Speakers to perform DPLIIz processing [viz:]

I have Yamaha Front Presence Speakers mounted in three rooms. In each case the speaker pairs are quite widely spaced, and nowhere near the 'over the Left and Right Main Speakers' position "idealized" for DPLIIz; I suspect many other existing Yamaha receiver owners are in a similar situation. It would probably be easier for me to add a third ["Center Height"] speaker to each configuration [for a total of three height speakers per room] than to reposition the existing speakers [even if Yamaha was prepared to rework the CinemaDSP3 math to support repositioning the Front Presence speakers...?!]

If you want to learn something about the origins of Audyssey's [forthcoming] DSX 11.1 speaker environment, you might want to read this 2006 Audioholics article: Introducing the 10.2 Surround Format.

Thanks SoundChex,

Also, if you are interested, anyone, you can check with FilmMixer, Marc Fishman, in the official Audyssey thread, about 384.8 discrete channels, starting at post #11123.

Yes you did read correctly: 384.8 discrete channels!
It is called the IOSONO system.

Marc is a re-recording mixer for the film sound business.

The 384 channels are all discrete. And the 8 subwoofers are also all discrete.

There is a commercial set up in the Mann Theater in Los Angeles that is set for it.

Try to Google "IOSONO" to find out more, or check FilmMixer in the dito thead.

Now, anyone that can beat that, 384.8-channel setup, all discrete channels, including the 8 subwoofers!?
___________________________________________________

For a different, but similar principle, Google also "CARROUSO".

The CARROUSO project stand for: "Creating, Assessing and Rendering in Real time Of
high quality aUdio-viSual envirOnments in mpeg-4 context.

Pro Logic IIz is very small peanuts compared to IOSONO system or CARROUSO project.

Cheers,

________
Bob

The centre back surround is correlated (in-phase) mono. So how can it be the decorrelated info sent to the height speakers? The same content in the Ls & Rs can't be in-phase and out-of-phase simultaneously.
If you followed your suggestion, then sounds intended to come from directly behind you would instead come from front/overhead. LOL indeed.
It is for sounds along the same plane, but is missing any sense of height. Think of typical 7.1/PLIIx as a 2-D ring of sound around you compared to PLIIz which would be more of a 3-D bubble of sound.
There's really not much choice. Since no DVDs or Blu-rays contain any height info, PLIIz has to keep the effect very generalized and ambient.

Anyone think there is any possibility of Onkyo coming up with Firmware that would allow the "IIz" Front Height option? I've got an Onkyo 805, I can't use the "Rears" because of layout; however, since their new 7.1 units will allow a choice of repurposing, it would be nice if they could add this feature to older high-end AVRs so I don't have to dump another $1k+... yah right, wishful thinking, it's ALWAYS about the new revenue stream...

And after everyone upgrades to this new 'God speaker' matrix, they will figure out that we need the 'Devil speaker'! Sound from below!

Anyone besides me think this will never end?

I was about to write the exact same thing. This is getting kind of out of hand. Call me old school, but properly placed good speakers with all tweeters at the correct height will already give you what this "God" speaker claims to give you. I don't have anymore room or money for two more speakers that voice match my others. I already have a system that takes me where I wanna go and makes me happy and I don't even own blueray yet. Prologic IIx was a good plan and does work out nicely in my system, but I would have never have tried it without already having the extra speakers lying around. I don't think PLIIx would have been worth an extra 400 bucks in speakers. I guess they have to keep the market moving but this is where I get off the train.

Devil speakers......buttkickers exist

If companies stop improving/modifying for no reason or stop make things obsolete how can they make money?

Actually, for me, it's not so much a conclusion, but more an article of faith...

"The journey towards the thousand channel surround system started with Mono..."

Technically, it could be done since PLIIz requires little to no increase in MIPs over PLIIx. Onkyo would have to decide whether it would be more beneficial (financially and otherwise) for them to add PLIIz to current models or introduce PLIIz in their next line (as one of the incentives to buy them).

Even if Onkyo were willing to upgrade current uints, the actual ability to do so would be up to their DSP chipmaker. If TI (or whoever makes Onkyo's DSP solution) decides to introduce PLIIz in their next set of chips rather than flash the new software onto their current chip line, then there's nothing Onkyo can do to offer its customers a PLIIz firmware upgrade.
I'm hoping it doesn't end. Then more channels/speakers, the less reliance on phantom imaging. The less reliance on phantom imaging, the more stable the sound field (for all listeners).

Like any change, it will be met by outrage and whining, but that will typically come from those that can't accomodate the additional speakers and resent the fact that others can. It happened with 5.1 ("you don't need more than 2 speakers"), came up again with 7.1 ("this is getting ridiculous"), so it should be no surprise that some are already complaining about 9.1 before it's even here.

I say bring on as many channels as possible; I'll decide how many (or how few) speakers I'm comfortable with in my system. Since I like devil's food cake already, I'm willing to give devil speakers a try.

Running with the devil! ...speakers

I think Roth sings the last word quietly under his breath

A quick look through the Onkyo TX-SR577 user manual doesn't suggest to me that DPLIIz will do much unless you are playing a video game deliberately coded with height cues. It will be interesting to see some [consumer review] comparisons with Yamaha units equipped with Front Presence speakers.

The TX-SR577 has one great feature [when compared to (say) Yamaha PresenceSpeaker/DSP playback]: 7.1 BDs authored with front height speakers/channels will be played back natively in the 7.1_FrontHeight speaker configuration [rather than 'suffering' a speaker remap into 7.1_Standard speaker configuration.] [See page 63, note 3.] Unfortunately, I suspect there are few if any BDs authored in 7.1_FrontHeight speaker configuration; so no really useful movie software available yet!

Sound and Vision had a very favorable review of the IIz sound.

This reminds me of the "Googlephonics" skit Steve Martin did on "Comedy is NOT pretty"

"...so NOW I've got the googlephonic stereo with a moon-rock needle.....

sounds like sh!t....."

I imagine it's hard to get googlephonic tracks, but I heard you can get some of the quadroponic albums in quad.

Mr Martin is a pretty good banjo player, I am told.

"Sound and Vision had a very favorable review of the IIz sound."

In what product?

In a Dolby lab setting - if I understood the article correctly. The author indicates he had a 'choice' of program material [I did NOT understand it to mean that he brought his own...]

I'd say that the article was mostly favorable, but I'm inclined to summarize it as: "For a steering post processor, DPLIIz does an excellent job generating ambiance from unencoded material" [contrary interpretations welcome!] This would seem to put it more directly in competition with Yamaha CinemaDSP, etc., and Audyssey DSX...

The same as the correction for all of the other speakers - time delay.

But I doubt it matters, as it's only decorrelated ambient sounds.

I read someplace that ultimately it will be 10.2 This leaves 5 speakers up front, 4 in the rears, and a speaker in the middle of the ceiling for overhead pans. They will slowly roll out products to this effect, keep us upgrading. It will be interesting if they go 10.2 discrete rather than matrix.

DTS Advanced NEO and Audyssey DSX technologies will supposedly deliver 5/6/.1 and 7/4/.1 speaker configurations, respectively, in late 2009, if someone wants to build receivers with 11 amps. I already have unused surround amps and speakers that I can add to existing systems, but I suspect the cost/complexity of 9+ speaker configurations will deter many 'average' consumers, and so generate only limited interest from the CE manufacturers. Yamaha has proved you can regularly sell receivers with 7 amps and 9 speaker capability; if the introduction of DPLIIz gets us to [even] US$600+ receivers with 9 amps and 9 speaker capability, within a few years, that will be a pretty big accomplishment!

The 10.2 number continues to pop up ever since Tom Holman developed the configuration a decade ago for research (not commercial use). His layout was 7 speakers up front and 3 surrounds, which hasn't been adopted by the few manufacturers that have gone above 7.1 speakers.

Going beyond 7.1 discrete channels will probably have to be done with matrixing for the time being. HD DVD and Blu-ray were spec'd for 8 audio channels max, so more discrete channels would require a new delivery format.

The SMPTE 428M Digital Cinema document that underlies the HDMI AudioFrame specs, plus Blu-Ray, DTS, and Dolby eight channel audio implementations defines two LFE channels [LFE and LFE2], and there are some codes in HDMI for an LFE/LFE2 speaker pair [probably to include support for Tomlinson Holman's 10.2 configuration.] I'd guess that someone wanted to allow for the possibility of current eight channel audio being either 7.1 or 6.2, but I've seen no evidence for Dolby or DTS support of 6.2 encoding/decoding.

It's rumored that the DTS Advanced NEO decoder expected 'soon' will [additionally] post process a DTS-HDMA 7.1 soundtrack into 11.2. But if you want two discrete LFE channels, you might have to wait for NHK 22.2 channel TV implementation!

The number of speakers will have to stop at some point because most people will run out of electricity to power all those amps. I believe most household circuits are 1800 watts max and I doubt there are very many typical family rooms that have multiple electric drops. I realize there are dedicated Home Theater rooms with multiple 20amp circuits but that is not the norm for the average family.

That's just for wimpy North American circuits . Most of the world runs on a higher voltage. 3000W is no problem from a standard UK wall socket.

The receiver manufacturers would just lower the watts per channel, that's all, so that it maxes out at around 600w like most of today's receivers. Just like how older two-channel receivers had 150 to 200wpc, you now see most 5.1 receivers with about 100wpc "peak" and about 80 or 90wpc continuous, and even lower numbers for 7.1 receivers.

I do believe that most rooms in relatively modern houses have two circuits, although that doesn't help a receiver with one plug. Even if two plugs, no guarantee the other circuit's outlet is anywhere handy to the spot best for the receiver.

It's very annoying, the 120V limitation of North American wiring. The rest of the world (for the most part) seems to get along just fine on 220/240VAC.

shinksma

"The number of speakers will have to stop at some point because most people will run out of electricity to power all those amps."

Average power (which is what trips breakers) is only a small fraction of peak capability.

Besides, most of the power is demanded by the sub.