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post #31 of 165
2/28/09 at 3:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

It's not possible to get a lower bit rate recording than what's on SA-CD.

I meant cd's, mp3's etc, even DD or DTS.
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post #32 of 165
2/28/09 at 3:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

I do run my sub hot, but I think the biggest reason for my disappointment was I listened to Elton 60 live at MSG prior to Certifiable. I have just listened to Certifiable and I do have to eat crow Toe. <---that ain't right! It does sound good with sub turned down a bit. I have eq'd my system with my Denon 4308/Audyssey. I also did turn off dynamic eq and that seemed to help. Maybe I should try Audyssey flat or off. What say you?


crow toe is even worse than just straight crow!

Hughmc, you are in good company as I have (and still do at times) eaten my fair share of crow as well

Honestly, I dont have any experience with Audyssey, even though I have it on my 885 Onkyo. It is something I will experiment with at some point most likely, but I personally have more faith in some well placed bass traps (in the corners which I know is not practical for most) and some good old sub eq (I am using a SMS-1 for my subs for music and some movies). Through a LOT of trial and error experimenting with sub placement and tweaking the SMS, my freq response from 15-200hz is ~ +/-4db so it is pretty flat. Again though, I have heard GREAT things about Aud and will experiment with it at some point.

Having said all that, do you have an easy way to see what Audyssey does to your freq response (in the ~20-200hz range in particular for the Police considering the strong bass presence)? If you do, see what it is doing with it on, off and same thing with dynamic EQ. If not, just try it by ear and see which way sounds the best. I can certainly see this mix not sounding that great if there are any major humps in this range.

Probably the most important thing having said all that is the fact that music in particular is so subjective and what I like in a mix you may not and the other way around. Chances are your setup is fine as is mine and we just have dif taste in the mix which is fine obviously.
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post #33 of 165
2/28/09 at 4:42pm
I must admit I have been to 50+ concerts and it does have a bit of that sound quality to it with the bass almost like a droning sound. Another issue I have which maybe the way they recorded it, but the audience is barely audible and having been to numerous Police concerts where Sting gets the audience chanting with him and louder than him and the band, I was disappointed. Again, I don't know if this was the way the recording was done, somehow plugged more directly into the band helping negate external noises some, but it doesn't seem right with the audience sound subdued as much as it is. Don't get me wrong, I would much rather hear the band, but when the camera pans to the audience and we should be hearing them chant loudly, not only is it not loud, but sometimes you can't hear the audience at all.
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post #34 of 165
2/28/09 at 4:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

I must admit I have been to 50+ concerts and it does have a bit of that sound quality to it with the bass almost like a droning sound. Another issue I have which maybe the way they recorded it, but the audience is barely audible and having been to numerous Police concerts where Sting gets the audience chanting with him and louder than him and the band, I was disappointed. Again, I don't know if this was the way the recording was done, somehow plugged more directly into the band helping negate external noises some, but it doesn't seem right with the audience sound subdued as much as it is. Don't get me wrong, I would much rather hear the band, but when the camera pans to the audience and we should be hearing them chant loudly, not only is it not loud, but sometimes you can't hear the audience at all.


I agree about the audience being way back in the mix most likely due to this being a direct board feed with no external type mic to capture the audience/ambiance thrown in the mix. This type of recording/mix is definately geared toward just the music presentation instead of trying to bring the audience/ambiance experience into it as well which I can very much understand how some people would not like this as much as if it were mixed in since this is not representative of the actual concert going experience which you can attest to having seen quite a few live shows (which I have as well).

I do agree with you on the Elton show though....that one sounds fantastic!
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post #35 of 165
2/28/09 at 5:25pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

I agree about the audience being way back in the mix most likely due to this being a direct board feed with no external type mic to capture the audience/ambiance thrown in the mix. This type of recording/mix is definately geared toward just the music presentation instead of trying to bring the audience/ambiance experience into it as well which I can very much understand how some people would not like this as much as if it were mixed in since this is not representative of the actual concert going experience which you can attest to having seen quite a few live shows (which I have as well).

I do agree with you on the Elton show though....that one sounds fantastic!

I listened more. I do like it. It is just a bit different than Chris Botti or Elton 60. As far as the audience being heard I am torn. I love the ambiance of the audience being part of the concerts overall sound, but too many live recordings back in the day had the band subdued due to the audience being overwhelmingly loud. My preference would be the band over the audience, but that is a "duh" statement.

I want to pick up Dave and Time next.
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post #36 of 165
2/28/09 at 5:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

I listened more. I do like it. It is just a bit different than Chris Botti or Elton 60. As far as the audience being heard I am torn. I love the ambiance of the audience being part of the concerts overall sound, but too many live recordings back in the day had the band subdued due to the audience being overwhelmingly loud. My preference would be the band over the audience, but that is a "duh" statement.

I want to pick up Dave and Time next.

I hear you. I have mixed feelings as well. If the audience is mixed in right, it can realy add to the experience, but if not....

Oh man, Dave and Tim is fantastic sound wise. Also check out John Mayer if you get a chance. I was also realy impressed with Jewel as far as sound if you have any interest in checking that out.
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post #37 of 165
2/28/09 at 5:58pm
I have a couple of DTS 96/24 recordings that sound better than their standard DTS counterparts. The difference is not extraordinary; rather, the songs sound a bit more open, detailed and smooth. The sound is warmer and more natural. They do not have the same digital harshness that other media can produce.

I think the big issue is that people are expecting a significant difference, but like everything else with audio, improvements are incremental. Peter Gabriel's "Play" is a regular DVD with several selections in DTS 96/24. This goes to the earlier comment about the mix being the most important factor, but the song "Sledgehammer", for instance, has nuances and separation of instruments that I have never heard before. Gabriel is known for his dedication to top-quality recording, so that definitely plays a part.

I also have an excellent DTS album entitled "Brazillian Jazz" that has tracks in 96/24 and 48kHz. The 96/24 tracks do sound better, but it does take some listening to appreciate the difference.

Finally, the Dave Matthews 96kHz TrueHD soundtrack is fantastic. I can't recommend it highly enough. I'm not even a huge fan of his music, but I watch it for the way it sounds. It is so utterly natural - every slight aspect of an individual playing acoustic guitar is captured.
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post #38 of 165
2/28/09 at 6:13pm
Well, If I had the choice of listening to The Police or the audience, I'd pick the band. I've been to many concerts were people around were talking so loud or singing horribly off key around me that I'm glad to actually really hear the band like on this disc. Also, Sting uses bass pedals to get that really L O W and loud bass sound selectively in songs. It's to fatten the sound, lower the bass an octave as well. And they don't "record it that way" A competent music recording will be almost always identical in technique. It's in the MIXING for home theater that this becomes an issue.

The best thing of course is if a band supervises a mix.

But when you are in a big venue live, the bass always seems louder, something you can literally FEEL.
And Sting being Sting, of COURSE he's gonna have the bass way up in the mix. I for one thought it sounded great. If it sounded "muddy" to anyone, I'd look at your settup, gear. The bass didn't drown out the guitar, drums or the vocals, it's just more prominent in the mix IMHO. That plus the previously mentioned pedals for effect and god knows what other FX Sting has his bass through.

(and for the record, I record and mix music as well as play live....)

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post #39 of 165
2/28/09 at 8:01pm
Dave Mack, I noticed Shea is gone by the way when I was back there flying in and out of La Guardia. Oh the memories of the Police there. Remember the audience chanting there? I like the Police as a 3 piece band more than the with backup singer and musician tours. You play in Manhattan?
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post #40 of 165
2/28/09 at 8:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

Dave Mack, I noticed Shea is gone by the way when I was back there flying in and out of La Guardia. Oh the memories of the Police there. Remember the audience chanting there? I like the Police as a 3 piece band more than the with backup singer and musician tours.

Hiya Hugh! I saw them there too. Missed REM and Joan Jett as I had no ticket and waited outside and right before the police were coming on, got one for $30 from a scalper. Was worth it. yeah, I didn't like the Synchronicity chicks myself. Was too Vegas-like. That worked with Sting on The Blue Turtles tour but not with the police imho.

Shea is all gone. Now we have the fabulous Citibank stadium.... ick
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post #41 of 165
2/28/09 at 8:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

Hiya Hugh! I saw them there too. Missed REM and Joan Jett as I had no ticket and waited outside and right before the police were coming on, got one for $30 from a scalper. Was worth it. yeah, I didn't like the Synchronicity chicks myself. Was too Vegas-like. That worked with Sting on The Blue Turtles tour but not with the police imho.

Shea is all gone. Now we have the fabulous Citibank stadium.... ick

Getting OT, but...

Citifield which we ALL now own a bit of one way or the other... and that name on the front won't look so good if they go under.

The Blue Turtles tour @Radio City maybe the best concert I had ever seen out of literally 50+. Those four jazz musicians were off the charts talented musicians. I will never forget that show. As good as the Police were live and as good as Andy and Stewart are talented instrumentalists, that show at RC had the most talented musicians I have seen to date. One of which was Branford Marsalis. I had the fortune of having first row to his brother Wynton at the college in my town. The venue couldn't seat more than 500.

I waited longer than you at SHea. My cheap ass friends and I waited to sneak in when the encores(five if I remember correctly) began. I don't know why I had plenty of cash flow in the 80's being single and well you know the 80's and some lucrative business adventures that tie into concerts. Saw the Who there too with Clash as warmup.
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post #42 of 165
2/28/09 at 8:49pm
Anyone want too talk about the thread title?
Remember? BD titles!
Glad there are three; here's hoping for more!
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post #43 of 165
2/28/09 at 10:44pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hughmc View Post

I am a Police fan and enjoy SACD's and DVD audio as well as BD's with excellent audio like Chris Botti. Police: Certifiable is a huge disappointment. The bass is overpowering and makes the entire BD sound muddy. I could be wrong, but I can't help thinking it is the mix post processing that screwed it up and not the recording of the concert itself. I have never returned or bitched about something like this, but I am pissed. What a bummer. The studio will be hearing from me.

I second your opinion on the disc, and this should be a lesson to think that 24/96 is all that. Garbage in garbage out.
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post #44 of 165
2/28/09 at 10:56pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post


This statement conflicts with a number of double-blind studies which show that a fairly high percentage of people do hear a difference.

Can you point me to one?
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post #45 of 165
3/1/09 at 7:01am
Baraka is DTS HD MA 5.1 96k/24

I can't remeber how it sounds through.

http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movies...55&show=review
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post #46 of 165
3/1/09 at 10:38am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Mack View Post

Well, If I had the choice of listening to The Police or the audience, I'd pick the band. I've been to many concerts were people around were talking so loud or singing horribly off key around me that I'm glad to actually really hear the band like on this disc. Also, Sting uses bass pedals to get that really L O W and loud bass sound selectively in songs. It's to fatten the sound, lower the bass an octave as well. And they don't "record it that way" A competent music recording will be almost always identical in technique. It's in the MIXING for home theater that this becomes an issue.

The best thing of course is if a band supervises a mix.

But when you are in a big venue live, the bass always seems louder, something you can literally FEEL.
And Sting being Sting, of COURSE he's gonna have the bass way up in the mix. I for one thought it sounded great. If it sounded "muddy" to anyone, I'd look at your setup, gear. The bass didn't drown out the guitar, drums or the vocals, it's just more prominent in the mix IMHO. That plus the previously mentioned pedals for effect and god knows what other FX Sting has his bass through.

(and for the record, I record and mix music as well as play live....)


Good post.

Even though I have heard some good use of audience in some of these concerts, I prefer they dont even risk it since more times than not (IMO) it takes away from the music. I realy like that about this Police disk....the music is the focus, they dont try to recreate being there (which again more times than not comes off gimmicky to some degree) and I personally realy love the recording and mix which is the type of thing I want to hear in my HT. Again though, I fully respect everyones opinion on this as music recording/mix/performance/etc....is SO subjective.
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post #47 of 165
3/1/09 at 10:55am
I liked Certifiable, very clean IMO.
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post #48 of 165
3/1/09 at 11:41am
Even though the title of this thread is 96khz I think Divertimenti should be mentioned. If you have the processing capabilities, the 192khz tracks are breathtaking to say the least. http://www.blu-ray.com/movies/movies...97&show=review
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...t=divertimenti
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post #49 of 165
3/1/09 at 1:58pm
Just picked up "The Cure Trilogy" earlier today at Barnes & Noble. Though not a huge fan, I picked up this title specifically because of it's DTS HD 96/24 audio. I'll report back after I give it a listen.
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post #50 of 165
3/1/09 at 3:04pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

It's not possible to get a lower bit rate recording than what's on SA-CD.

Actually the bitrate of SACD is quite high. You meant the bit-depth, so the joke is on you...

To get this thread back on topic; Here's a list I've compiled over the currently released Blu-Rays with high-resolution sampling rate that I'm aware of. Maybe someone can stick them on the first post.
Anyway, here they are;

Code:
---------------------------
96khz, 24-Bit (13 titles) :
---------------------------
Baraka
Between The Lines: Sara Bareilles Live At The Filmore
Celine Dion: A New Day. Live In Las Vegas
Chris Botti: Live With Orchestra And Guests
Chronos
Dave Matthews And Tim Reynolds: Live At Radio City
Ellen Sejersted Bodtker: SONaR
John Mayer: Where The Light Is
Nature's Journey
Queen Rock Montreal And Live Aid
The Cure: Trilogy
The Police: Certifiable
Within Temptation: Black Symphony

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Fake" 96khz, 24-Bit. (Reportedly recorded at 48khz 5.0 and upsampled to 96khz DTS-HD MA 7.1):
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bach: Orchestral Suites No.1, 2 & 3 / Tripelkonzert (Surround Records)
Grieg: Piano Concerto / Symphonic Dances / In Autumn - Acoustic Reality Experience (Surround Records)
Tchaikovsky: Piano Concertos Nos. 1&3 - Acoustic Reality Experience (Surround Records)
Uncommon Bach (Surround Records)

---------------------------
192khz, 24-Bit (2 titles) :
---------------------------
Akira
Trondheimsolistene: Divertimenti
Only two 192khz titles though, but thirteen 96khz titles is a good start.
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post #51 of 165
3/1/09 at 3:35pm
wow akira is 192/24? is it warranted?
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post #52 of 165
3/1/09 at 3:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kishiro View Post

Actually the bitrate of SACD is quite high. You meant the bit-depth, so the joke is on you...

To get this thread back on topic; Here's a list I've compiled over the currently released Blu-Rays with high-resolution sampling rate that I'm aware of. Maybe someone can stick them on the first post.
Anyway, here they are;

Code:
---------------------------
96khz, 24-Bit (13 titles) :
---------------------------
Baraka
Between The Lines: Sara Bareilles Live At The Filmore
Celine Dion: A New Day. Live In Las Vegas
Chris Botti: Live With Orchestra And Guests
Chronos
Dave Matthews And Tim Reynolds: Live At Radio City
Ellen Sejersted Bodtker: SONaR
John Mayer: Where The Light Is
Nature's Journey
Queen Rock Montreal And Live Aid
The Cure: Trilogy
The Police: Certifiable
Within Temptation: Black Symphony

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Fake" 96khz, 24-Bit. (Reportedly recorded at 48khz 5.0 and upsampled to 96khz DTS-HD MA 7.1):
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bach: Orchestral Suites No.1, 2 & 3 / Tripelkonzert (Surround Records)
Grieg: Piano Concerto / Symphonic Dances / In Autumn - Acoustic Reality Experience (Surround Records)
Tchaikovsky: Piano Concertos Nos. 1&3 - Acoustic Reality Experience (Surround Records)
Uncommon Bach (Surround Records)

---------------------------
192khz, 24-Bit (2 titles) :
---------------------------
Akira
Trondheimsolistene: Divertimenti
Only two 192khz titles though, but thirteen 96khz titles is a good start.

Add a new title from 2L to the 24/96 group: SONaR.
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post #53 of 165
3/1/09 at 7:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sujay View Post

wow akira is 192/24? is it warranted?

Sort of. The music in the soundtrack apparently really did have recorded frequencies up to 100khz and they've added new sound effects to the mix that also had rather high sampling rates and dynamic range. The voices and original sound effects don't gain a whole lot from it, and I'd be surprised to see just how much of the dynamic range of 24 bits was used since 16 bits gets you nearly 96db range as it is. (144db for 24-bit)

Regardless, for a film of it's age, it sounds pretty killer.
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post #54 of 165
3/1/09 at 7:43pm
I'd say that regardless of one's ability to hear the differences between 48, 96, and 192 kHz sampling rates, the care and attention typically lavished upon the mastering and mixing of the high-resolution discs often gives a superior product. So, I really don't care "exactly what" it is, as long as the final product is so good.

Lee
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post #55 of 165
3/1/09 at 7:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank Derks View Post


There are no AV amplifiers capable to do dsp processing at 192kHz.

Mine does.
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post #56 of 165
3/1/09 at 7:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by William View Post

At 16Khz you get 1.5 samples per second with 48Khz and with 96Khz you get 6. This in theory can translate into a more accurate and detailed representation of the sound wave.

No, it can't - at least not audibly. The only difference in resolution will be in frequencies that are beyond your ability to hear.

Quote:


Also with 96Khz you can push the noise into a higher frequency band since there is more room at the top.

What noise are you referring to?
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post #57 of 165
3/1/09 at 7:58pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Toe View Post

Having said all that, do you have an easy way to see what Audyssey does to your freq response (in the ~20-200hz range in particular for the Police considering the strong bass presence)?

TrueRTA is easy and inexpensive, and will show you what you are actually hearing.
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post #58 of 165
3/1/09 at 8:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kishiro View Post

Actually the bitrate of SACD is quite high. You meant the bit-depth, so the joke is on you...

To get this thread back on topic; Here's a list I've compiled over the currently released Blu-Rays with high-resolution sampling rate that I'm aware of. Maybe someone can stick them on the first post.
Anyway, here they are;

Code:
---------------------------
96khz, 24-Bit (13 titles) :
---------------------------
Baraka
Between The Lines: Sara Bareilles Live At The Filmore
Celine Dion: A New Day. Live In Las Vegas
Chris Botti: Live With Orchestra And Guests
Chronos
Dave Matthews And Tim Reynolds: Live At Radio City
Ellen Sejersted Bodtker: SONaR
John Mayer: Where The Light Is
Nature's Journey
Queen Rock Montreal And Live Aid
The Cure: Trilogy
The Police: Certifiable
Within Temptation: Black Symphony

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Fake" 96khz, 24-Bit. (Reportedly recorded at 48khz 5.0 and upsampled to 96khz DTS-HD MA 7.1):
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bach: Orchestral Suites No.1, 2 & 3 / Tripelkonzert (Surround Records)
Grieg: Piano Concerto / Symphonic Dances / In Autumn - Acoustic Reality Experience (Surround Records)
Tchaikovsky: Piano Concertos Nos. 1&3 - Acoustic Reality Experience (Surround Records)
Uncommon Bach (Surround Records)

---------------------------
192khz, 24-Bit (2 titles) :
---------------------------
Akira
Trondheimsolistene: Divertimenti
Only two 192khz titles though, but thirteen 96khz titles is a good start.


I seriously doubt many of those are 24 bit recordings to begin with. Remastering is just like upsampling or conversion, unless analog sources were used to convert it to those high sampling rates instead of the old digital masters. But at the end of the day if it sounds good who cares what was used to create these.
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post #59 of 165
3/1/09 at 8:47pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MauneyM View Post




What noise are you referring to?

Quantization noise I guess.
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post #60 of 165
3/1/09 at 9:29pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by vancouver View Post

Mine does.

I thought mine does as well.
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