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Jim Burns - Are Some Blu Ray Players Better on HDMI HD Picture Quality?  

post #1 of 224
2/28/09 at 8:59pm
Thread Starter 
Since Jim Burns is hangin' out recently in this forum, I pose this question to him. No one better to comment on this question because Jim knows what he is sitting and can dissect video quality like a biologist dissecting a frog.

I mean, its all HDMI video, right? What difference can more solid vibration free chassis, power supply, etc have when the HDMI signal is output to
a HDTV, projector or video processor?

I am a believer through experience that these things can make a solid difference with analog audio, even with non-HDMI digital audio at times - but I don't know re HDMI video.

Any other experiences ISF video calibrationists with experience using different Blu Ray players in a given video system please chime in, too.

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post #2 of 224
3/1/09 at 1:42am
Steve, a vibration free chassis is very important with digital too. If there's a lot of vibration some 2's or 3's or maybe even 8's might slip into the signal. You see, with all the vibration a 0 or 1 might be interpreted as a 2, 3, or 8. And there's nothing worse than a 0 or 1 being read as an 8. Then again, I heard you convinced your wife years ago to interpret your 3" as 8", so maybe an HDMI source that sends out 8's is just what you want.
post #3 of 224
3/1/09 at 4:48am
Quote:
Originally Posted by QQQ View Post

Then again, I heard you convinced your wife years ago to interpret your 3" as 8". . [snip]

Interesting.

Regards,
post #4 of 224
3/1/09 at 5:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by QQQ View Post

Steve, a vibration free chassis is very important with digital too. If there's a lot of vibration some 2's or 3's or maybe even 8's might slip into the signal. You see, with all the vibration a 0 or 1 might be interpreted as a 2, 3, or 8. And there's nothing worse than a 0 or 1 being read as an 8.

I think this has been shown to be the case with high quality lamp cord but with HDMI it's a whole different ball game. The Turbo HDMI cables (Monster I believe but don't quote me) are cabable of filtering out the unwanted numbers initiated through excessive vibration (not normal vibration of course).

Art
post #5 of 224
3/1/09 at 6:16am
I would definitely put your HDMI cord between two giant pieces of granite in a giant sandbox. You don't want any vibration.
post #6 of 224
3/1/09 at 7:01am
Past g/fs have always been threes dressed up as 9s, and I was always fooled until recently I got engaged to a 10.
post #7 of 224
3/1/09 at 7:05am
Thread Starter 
Stupid idiots!!!!@@@@


QQQ was doing a great jo ke and you jokers took him so seriously you go on and on!!!!


Actually, I have heard audio differences in digital transports and I didn't post this thread to find out subjective opinions. But that doesn't mean that there will be an HDMI difference videowise. That's the question of the thread.

Who better than one of the top video calibrationists in the world - Jim Burns - to ansswer this question. IF he has played with any different Blu Ray players on the same system that he has ISFed and calibrated then I'd like to know his experience regarding this.

As for the rest of you DougWinsor/Adam Sandler would be pretenders, you're not the real thing! HA!
post #8 of 224
3/1/09 at 7:22am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by thebland View Post

AND IN CONCLUSION............... Time to bring this thread to a close.. I found out what I wanted to find out with the polling... It has been a good thread and quite enlightening...

RE:$2K players and how to waste your money....



Yes.. You'd think there was some sort of paradigm shift in Blu Ray technology... The last disc paradigm shift was the move to 1080P24 from the early players only doing 1080P60. And before that, the transition from DVD to Blu Ray.

I see many $2K owners, particularly those with the latest players gushing over all its 'new' advancements in technology.. Fact is, many folks who buy a lot of players tend to like the newest, most expensive the best. It's a fact, no one likes to spend $2K and immediately say that a lower cost player offers similar performance.. So, you'll never get a true read on comparisons with someone fully invested in their $2K player.

Based on the fact, the upcoming Denon at $4K will be the new king.. For no reason other than its exorbitant price...

Personally, in being in this hobby buying gear of all price ranges over the last 20 years I have come to some conclusions...



1. In the world that was analog, there were greater improvements with generations as there was so much to do to clean up / improve analog.. Anyone remember the Faroudja VP301 at the 'lowered' price of $15K...? a piece that did the unheard of by taking 480i and upconverting it to 600P??!! A bargain price compared to the $25K / $30K flagship Faroudjas.. I remember buying my first Faroudja.. What an improvement for my LD player!!

2. I don't get a 'hard-on' to buy the latest piece just to have it.. I used to be like that when I thought spending more meant getting more.. Today in a 1080P24 / bitstream world, the player differences are just too marginal. It looks more like ignorance than anything else.

3. I've learned to by smarter and spend where it will make differences... WIth the glut of new BD players, if looking for audio and video improvements when running 1080P24 / bitstream / LPCM, it is just a waste of money.. Now if you want better build, fit and finish, etc... THen you do get rewarded for your $2K purchase.

4. Personally, I spend my money wisely on HT - not spending just to spend - if I were still that way, and I used to be, I'd have a Pioneer 09 in my stable by now. Cna I afford one? Of course... But, I know it is no better than anything else so why spend on it?

I'l give some examples of my smarter purchases?
1. ISCO III anamorphic lens at $6K it is an expensive piece of glass but coming from the far cheaper Panamorph, the acrylic block is no match for precision glass. The anamorphic lens is a most important piece in any video set up. The difference is easily discernable compared to cheaper imitators.

2. Lumagen Radiance Scaler: at $4K, it isn't out of bounds in terms of cost, but to get perfect calibrations for up to 15 sources (6 HDMI), nothing even comes close. I have 7 sources... All perfectly dialed in to my ISF calibrated projector.

3. Stewart Vistascope screen... Yes at $25K it is more than most folks whole system. But for masking all aspect ratios in a 14' wide, microperfed screen, there is nothing better. Many folks here run plasmas, but when going to scope, you've got the same black bars a $300 LCD has - it distracts and kills perceived contrast. The 09 / 3800 cannot help this either. Better to spend those 09 dollars towards front projection.. The Vistascope also excels particularly with the new masks that are truly transparent to audio (like speaker cloth)..

*Notice, I didn't list my Denon 3800. I have the new OPPO and at 1080P24, I can't see a difference at a fraction of the cost. Nor with lossless over HDMI.

So, why should I not spend a measly $2K on a Pioneer 09??? Simple. There has been no paradigm shift in technology - so it would be an utter waste of money. A complete waste of money compared to what is available today (and it can't decode DTS MA). The smart money is to stay away from the Denon 3800, Pioneer 09, Sony ES if 24P is your primary reason to buy for 24P improvement / or lossless improvement... Yes, there is a feeding frenzy in a couple $2K threads and it is easy to get sucked in, but the improvements are simply delusions of grandeur. Everytime I read, 'you gotta try it yourself' or 'how come it is the owners who all glow about it', I laugh... I used to be that way with new stuff. It's fun to buy and declare your newest piece the holy grail of its catagory. But with Blu Ray today, the 'improvements' @24P and digital lossless are pure nonsense. There are no new shifts in technology.



Those who know, know better.

Now here's someone who is asking this question and answering it for himself from an observational basis using a Qualia004 soon to be replaced by an even better projector.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...122617&page=28

He doesn't think there's any difference in HDMI 1080p24 picture quality among some Blu Ray playes he's used in his system and he doesn't have to be funny to say it. HA!
post #9 of 224
3/1/09 at 7:27am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

You don't need us for comic relief you are right ,your posts are doing very well on their own. I hope you are doing it intentionally,you are right ?

Art

Go ahead. Make my day!!!@@@

Intentionally? When have I ever done anything like that?

I'm surprised you Adam Sandler types havan't tried a Chu Gai on me like
"Get a cheap Blu Ray player AND add a Hooker and the visuals will instantly improve." (woops, I would have thought that Chu Gai would be the one to come up with the Hooker furniture thingamagic, but it was actually Alan Gouger. Nice to know I can start a thread on the same thing but disguise it as a real video thread so AVS won't delete it as they would if anyone other than Alan started a Hooker thread. HAAAA!!!
post #10 of 224
3/1/09 at 7:28am
Thread Starter 
What are the odds that the real Jim Burns will come on this thread now and tell us his true observations in answer to the original question????
post #11 of 224
3/1/09 at 7:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

What are the odds that the real Jim Burns will come on this thread now and tell us his true observations in answer to the original question????

Well I hope if he does that he sees the the question is rediculous.

Art
post #12 of 224
3/1/09 at 7:57am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Well I hope if he does that he sees the the question is rediculous.

+1 !

Regards,
post #13 of 224
3/1/09 at 8:15am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Now here's someone who is asking this question and answering it for himself from an observational basis using a Qualia004 soon to be replaced by an even better projector.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...122617&page=28

He doesn't think there's any difference in HDMI 1080p24 picture quality among some Blu Ray playes he's used in his system and he doesn't have to be funny to say it. HA!


Ill bite.

I also do not see any real visual PQ difference between players regardless of cost via HDMI " But"
there are some reasons to be concerned or at least I have been told. Depending on how HDCP is handled in the video path it can have an effect on PQ. You also do not know what players are giving us true 1080p24 direct right off the disc, only the manufacture would know for sure. What about the players that have video processing features such as brightness, gamma, sharpness etc. The signal from those players are definitely going through an additional pre processing stage before it leaves the player. While you may set the sharpness to 0
the manufacture may want you to see a sharper image so 0 in the outside might actually be +1 inside, again you never know. For these players it would be nice to have a "byPass" selection in the set up menu.
I own an HD SDI player for one reason it does ensure I am getting the information right off the disc exiting the player via the shortest video path.












.
post #14 of 224
3/1/09 at 8:25am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

Well I hope if he does that he sees the the question is rediculous.

Art

Art, do you still think "the question is rediculous" in view of Alan Gouger's
informed answer?????
post #15 of 224
3/1/09 at 8:26am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Ill bite.

I also do not see any real visual PQ difference between players regardless of cost via HDMI " But"
there are some reasons to be concerned or at least I have been told. Depending on how HDCP is handled in the video path it can have an effect on PQ. You also do not know what players are giving us true 1080p24 direct right off the disc, only the manufacture would know for sure. What about the players that have video processing features such as brightness, gamma, sharpness etc. The signal from those players are definitely going through an additional pre processing stage before it leaves the player. While you may set the sharpness to 0
the manufacture may want you to see a sharper image so 0 might actually be +1 inside, you never know. For these players it would be nice to have a "byPass" selection in the set up menu.
I own an HD SDI player for one reason it does ensure I am getting the information right off the disc exiting the player via the shortest video path.


.

Wouldn't it be great if Secrets of Home Theater would do a HDMI video Blu Ray test for the above, as they already have for years done a DVD video test rating many players?
post #16 of 224
3/1/09 at 8:35am
Hi

I think the question is valid and I for one take it seriously. I am aptiently building my understanding of high end video and as in many hobbies that involve perception, one learn to "see"... I thought my now-to-be-replaced Sony Ruby untouchable but I have learned to see more in a picture.. and now can see it surpassed by several less expensive projectors and thoroughly trashed by others... I did buy early in the High Definition disc and have both HDVD and Bluray... The very first HDVD players were to my eyes superior to the Bluray players.. I went ahead bought the second generation Toshiba and the Pioneer Elite Bluray player... Both have served me well through the years..
I am not able to see ANY difference between the Elite albeit a relatively old model and a PS3 on BluRay.. Is this the experience of the majority? Is there a difference between 24 and 60 fps.. What to look for in a top flight BluRay player? Last but not least are there legal ways to rip Bluray to HDD?
post #17 of 224
3/1/09 at 8:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

I also do not see any real visual PQ difference between players regardless of cost via HDMI[snip]

I agree. The only major differences I've noticed is on standard definition material.

Regards,
post #18 of 224
3/1/09 at 8:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan Gouger View Post

Ill bite.

I also do not see any real visual PQ difference between players regardless of cost via HDMI " But"
there are some reasons to be concerned or at least I have been told. Depending on how HDCP is handled in the video path it can have an effect on PQ. You also do not know what players are giving us true direct 1080p24 right off the disc, only the manufacture would know for sure. What about the players that have video processing features such as brightness, gamma, sharpness etc. The signal from those players are definitely going through an additional pre processing stage before it leaves the player. While you may set the sharpness to 0
the manufacture may want you to see a sharper image so 0 might actually be +1 inside, you never know.
I own an HD SDI player for one reason it does ensure I am getting the information right off the disc exiting the player via the shortest video path.

I have not compared enough players to offer much opinion, but although in theory the output from players "should" all be the same over HDMI (i.e. what is on the disc) the reasons Alan outlines would make it hard to rule out differences existing between players.

When I borrowed Pioneer's very first blu-ray machine a while back, it appeared to me that less global sharpening was being applied by the Pioneer compared to my PS3. During certain scenes in Blade Runner, the film grain was really exaggerated on the PS3 compared to the Pioneer, even though the settings on my display remained the same. This was the only occaison I could point out a worthwhile difference. On more recent movies they both looked spectacular.

The PS3 has certainly proved a better investment than the Pioneer for my circumstances.

Sean
post #19 of 224
3/1/09 at 10:10am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

Art, do you still think "the question is rediculous" in view of Alan Gouger's
informed answer?????

Yes, based on the answer he gave he came right out and said no PQ differences so it is entirely consistant with my post. Literally, this is as bad as QQQ said. I bought a new hard drive for my PC because my spread sheet came out so much cleaner looking. It was as if a veil had been lifted. The black text was blacker. I even noticed that reading the text was less fatiguing despite the economy.

Art
post #20 of 224
3/1/09 at 10:59am
I modified my spreadsheet to output white. Absolutely reduced the stress and fatigue from the 1's and 0's turning to 8's and 3's.
post #21 of 224
3/1/09 at 11:06am
I have no doubt the some manufacturers are not being completely forthcoming with respect to just exactly what they are doing internally. I suspect a shortcut or two. On the other hand, I also suspect many who are doing some arm waving about this sort of thing don't even know what the specified voltage should be on the video outputs (and, of course, your video calibrator did measure that before calibrating everything. Right?)
post #22 of 224
3/1/09 at 11:09am
HD-SDI is where it is at for ultimate PQ, everything is gotten out of the way and you get a pure 4:2:2 1080p/24 signal, I wish more people could get a chance to see what this brings to the table

-Gary
post #23 of 224
3/1/09 at 11:25am
This is a very good question. Unless you want to use the player controls to correct a problem, the usual goal is to minimize processing and conversions in the player. You also have to look at the whole system to minimize conversions.

A good example of a potential problem is the first generation Pioneer Elite BD player. The usual best output choice is YCbCr. This is the format of the disc data. If it's converted to RGB in the player, it's converted back to YCbCr in some (most?) projectors for processing and back to RGB for display. If you select YCbCr output in the player, this multiple conversion is avoided. That's the theory. The reality with that Pioneer model is that there is a YCbCr to RGB conversion tha can't be avoided. If you select YCbCr output, you have YCbCr to RGB to YCbCr. It's better to choose RGB output with this player. This type of information is not available and was found only when the HD-SDI mod was developed. Instead of the expected YCbCr going to the HDMI transmitter, it was found to be RGB. This player is also one of the exceptions to the HD-SDI being safer rule since HD-SDI is YCbCr and has a dual conversion with this player.

Talking about HD-SDI, we are having problems with the Pioneer 09 mod. If anyone has access to the documentation for the Panasonic MN864707 HDMI chip, please PM me.
post #24 of 224
3/1/09 at 11:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by goneten View Post

I agree. The only major differences I've noticed is on standard definition material.

When shopping for a Blu-ray player, how they perform on SD-DVDs can be an important consideration for those with existing DVD collections. Not all Blu-ray players are created equal in that regard.
post #25 of 224
3/1/09 at 12:08pm
Hi

So the thread is mixture of levity and seriousness bu there are real issues ...

The real issues to me are:
Are there difference between BD Players?
What should one look for when purchasing a BD Player?
If HD-SDI is THE solution, how does it deal with HDCP?

These questions have been prompted by the quasi-disappearance of movie theaters where I live. HT has, thus,
taken a whole different meaning for me. I love movies and have to move to the Big leagues..
post #26 of 224
3/1/09 at 1:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by FrantzM View Post

Hi

So the thread is mixture of levity and seriousness bu there are real issues ...

The real issues to me are:
Are there difference between BD Players?
What should one look for when purchasing a BD Player?
If HD-SDI is THE solution, how does it deal with HDCP?

These questions have been prompted by the quasi-disappearance of movie theaters where I live. HT has, thus,
taken a whole different meaning for me. I love movies and have to move to the Big leagues..

ill be glad to address this, there are major differences between BD players the reason is not simple, the differences include decoder quality, internal processing, conversions like colorspace 4:2:2 to 4:4:4 etc.

what you want to look for in a BD player is one that outputs 1080p/24 in 4:2:2 with no chroma bugs or hidden processing, this is hard to meet

where HD-SDI comes in is that it guarantees the purest cleanest 1080p/24 4:2:2 signal possible, processing is thrown aside, no colorspace conversions etc.

HD-SDI also bypasses HDCP entirely and frees up the HDMI port for audio only usage

my favorite for BD PQ right now is the Panny BD30/50 if you are talking stock form(it offers 1080p/24 4:2:2), HD-SDI makes it even better, there is a new kid on the block coming soon that may change my pick, what I have seen so far is amazing and can't wait to see HD-SDI on it

can anyone guess which player I speak of?

-Gary
post #27 of 224
3/1/09 at 2:21pm
The question was does a vibration free chassis make a difference in PQ ?,are any of you saying that vibration control on a digital output device makes a difference in the PQ ?

I'd really really hate to see hocus pocus entering into this.

Art
post #28 of 224
3/1/09 at 2:34pm
Quote:


When shopping for a Blu-ray player, how they perform on SD-DVDs can be an important consideration for those with existing DVD collections. Not all Blu-ray players are created equal in that regard.

Exactly, hence why I mentioned the discrepancies between players on SD material. Some players can have pretty atrocious up-scaling. But in terms of Blu-ray playback, I think most of them (even the "cost-no-object" designs") are on a par. I'm certain there'll be measurable differences but that doesn't necessarily mean that there will be perceivable differences.

*Flame resistant suit on*

Regards,
post #29 of 224
3/1/09 at 2:36pm
Originally posted by goneten

Exactly, hence why I mentioned the discrepancies between players on SD material. Some players can have pretty atrocious up-scaling. But in terms of Blu-ray playback, I think most of them (even the "cost-no-object" designs") are on a par. I'm certain there'll be measurable differences but that doesn't necessarily mean that there will be perceivable differences.

*Flame resistant suit on*

Regards

I agree !
post #30 of 224
3/1/09 at 2:36pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

I'd really really hate to see hocus pocus entering into this.

This forum ? Hocus pocus ? Nah. .

Regards,
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