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post #31 of 224
Haven't read the entire post yet but wanted to answer because "little Steve" (you some times learn too much form AVS forum) thought I would not. I will read the rest and answer later tomorrow this is quality time with the girl friend.

Those that know me are expecting me to recommend something off the shelf, not this time. I think a HTPC is the way to go here. I still do not know of a regular player that stands out above the rest. Does not mean it does not exist but I have not found it.

Finding an above average off the shelf player has been an issue for me too.
post #32 of 224
I thank Gary Murell for his post. What seems to be coming out is that there ARE some differences between BD player whether they can be perceived is another story and one for which I am sure there will be sides one of which will inevitably involve DBT... I may not have perceived any differences doesn't mean that there aren't any either.. I may not know what to literally look for.
There is a difference between a technology and its implementation. That it be digital is one thing , how it is implemented is a whole different story... Also I would like to understand how one can bypass HDCP, I was under the impression that HDCP decoding was necessary to obtain a picture... How does HD-SDI deas wight HDCP decoding?
post #33 of 224
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gary murrell View Post

ill be glad to address this, there are major differences between bd players the reason is not simple, the differences include decoder quality, internal processing, conversions like colorspace 4:2:2 to 4:4:4 etc.

What you want to look for in a bd player is one that outputs 1080p/24 in 4:2:2 with no chroma bugs or hidden processing, this is hard to meet

where hd-sdi comes in is that it guarantees the purest cleanest 1080p/24 4:2:2 signal possible, processing is thrown aside, no colorspace conversions etc.

Hd-sdi also bypasses hdcp entirely and frees up the hdmi port for audio only usage

my favorite for bd pq right now is the panny bd30/50 if you are talking stock form(it offers 1080p/24 4:2:2), hd-sdi makes it even better, there is a new kid on the block coming soon that may change my pick, what i have seen so far is amazing and can't wait to see hd-sdi on it

can anyone guess which player i speak of?

-gary

oppo!!!!@@@@
post #34 of 224
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Burns View Post

Haven't read the entire post yet but wanted to answer because "little Steve" (you some times learn too much form AVS forum) thought I would not. I will read the rest and answer later tomorrow this is quality time with the girl friend.

Those that know me are expecting me to recommend something off the shelf, not this time. I think a HTPC is the way to go here. I still do not know of a regular player that stands out above the rest. Does not mean it does not exist but I have not found it.

Finding an above average off the shelf player has been an issue for me too.

Hi Jim! Lotsa of use here at AVS talk a lot but know a little. You talk very little but know a lot. I can't wait.
post #35 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell View Post

HD-SDI is where it is at for ultimate PQ, everything is gotten out of the way and you get a pure 4:2:2 1080p/24 signal, I wish more people could get a chance to see what this brings to the table

-Gary

Seeing how the format on disc is 4:2:0, then 4:2:2 would be far from pure . Indeed that interpolation could opt to sharpen the high frequency color or soften whether in SDI or HDMI domains.
post #36 of 224
It becomes more difficult to make these types of comparisons I think, on modern displays, as the video processing in even modestly priced gear tends to mask many of the anomalies we experienced with SD source material (chroma bug, progressive flag issues, etc.).

The 24p argument assumes that every video decoder in these players works perfectly. I am skeptical of this, as even after 12 years of DVD, manufactures continue to release machines with sub-par core MPEG performance (and some of the *most* expensive players tend to be some of the worst offenders). But if there is competent processing in place any deficiencies may not be easily observable. Do these new codecs work differently enough from MPEG2 that every decoder will produce identical results given the same source material? Can *all* of the post-processing (sharpening, NR, chroma upsampling, etc.) be assumed perfect, or be completely defeated?

I personally believe that most of these HD players will produce output that is more similar than different assuming direct output of HD source material. But there is still variance in SD performance, navigation speed, analog performance, video processing, and feature set, that it's not so easy to state that any HD player with price which exceeds some arbitrary amount is automatically a "waste" of money. This *may* be the case if you're using these high-dollar players strictly as transport for HD video - but I don't think that someone purchasing a $4K Denon unit has that intent.
post #37 of 224
Thread Starter 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1048326


http://www.usa.denon.com/ProductDetails/4760.asp

DVD-A1UDCI

$4,500.00

"For the ultimate disc playback accuracy, Denon’s DVD-A1UDCI sets the standard in state-of-the-art audio and video reproduction. Denon’s exclusive design allows playback of popular high resolution audio formats such as SACD and DVD-Audio, and is BD-Live Ready (Firmware update available approx. Apr./09). Your CD collection will never sound better, thanks to Denon’s new AL32 advanced digital audio processing, which upconverts conventional 16-bit CDs to full 32-bit digital format, virtually eliminating low-level harmonic distortion in the process. For pristine video quality, the Silicon Optix Realta HQV processor provides superb DVD deinterlacing and upconversion to HD, along with sophisticated picture improvement algorithms. Featuring balanced stereo analog outputs, the DVD-A1UDCI is equipped with true 32-bit dual differential D/A converters for each channel, along with a full set of conventional analog 7.1 outputs. The dual parallel HDMI outputs can also be assigned with HDMI Pure Direct Mode, with one HDMI output for audio and the other HDMI output for video with higher digital clocking accuracy and improved jitter control. For installation and configuration flexibility, the DVD-A1UDCI features RS-232C serial control, and BD-Live functionality via Ethernet connection. "

Interesting?
post #38 of 224
Thread Starter 
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1124287

Official OPPO BDP-83 Early Adoption Program Owner's Thread

Interesting. Early adopter price $499. DVD 480i over HDMI. Blu Ray 1080/24 with direct source mode for no processing with HDMI video signal at all!!!!
(concern indicated earlier by Alan Gouger that some Blu Ray players may mess and process some with the HDMI video signal).
post #39 of 224
Quote:


The dual parallel HDMI outputs can also be assigned with HDMI Pure Direct Mode, with one HDMI output for audio and the other HDMI output for video with higher digital clocking accuracy and improved jitter control.

Oh, oh. Here comes DougW
post #40 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve Bruzonsky View Post

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1124287

Official OPPO BDP-83 Early Adoption Program Owner's Thread

Interesting. Early adopter price $499. DVD 480i over HDMI. Blu Ray 1080/24 with direct source mode for no processing with HDMI video signal at all!!!!
(concern indicated earlier by Alan Gouger that some Blu Ray players may mess and process some with the HDMI video signal).

I've been beta testing one for a few months... This is one slick piece.
post #41 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Axatax View Post

The 24p argument assumes that every video decoder in these players works perfectly. I am skeptical of this, as even after 12 years of DVD, manufactures continue to release machines with sub-par core MPEG performance (and some of the *most* expensive players tend to be some of the worst offenders).

Both MPEG-4 AVC and VC-1 have new "transforms" which make it a lot easier to write accurate decoders. In addition we (Microsoft) donated a set of "test vectors" (verification suite) to SMPTE as part of VC-1 standardization which chip companies use to verify their implementation. So while none of this guarantees 100% accuracy, they are major step forward.
post #42 of 224
Steve is correct, the Oppo it is, and don't think for one second this is some lightweight cheaply built POS, it is a big departure from the normal Oppo stuff, I am proud to own it

-Gary
post #43 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Seeing how the format on disc is 4:2:0, then 4:2:2 would be far from pure . Indeed that interpolation could opt to sharpen the high frequency color or soften whether in SDI or HDMI domains.

yes Amir, but we never get that 4:2:0 as there is chroma upscaling as part of the decoding process for BD, HD-DVD and DVD, what we want is 4:2:2 from a player if looking for a HDMI unit with the best PQ, HD-SDI always delivers that because it gets the decoded info before internal conversions etc.

-Gary
post #44 of 224
What about the robust chassis and reduction in vibration in how it effects output quality over HDMI ?

Art
post #45 of 224
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

What about the robust chassis and reduction in vibration in how it effects output quality over HDMI ?

Art

Yes, I did raise that question? I feel confident it makes a difference for those using the player to do the DA conversion and output analog audio. Maybe even if you use the player to do the DA conversion and interlacing and scaling for video. Re digital audio and video HDMI output from the player, that I do not have experience or an opinion on.

The fact that the Oppo is relatively inexpensive for what it gives, unadulterated 480i DVD over HDMI and unadulterated 1080p24 Blu Ray over HDMI, is sensational - and it ain't no $1,000, $2,000 or more!!!@@@
I too question whether a much more expensive and more vibration free chassis will make a difference here, at least for video!
post #46 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Art Sonneborn View Post

What about the robust chassis and reduction in vibration in how it effects output quality over HDMI ?

Art

I just did a search to see who all claims this as a feature. Ran into Denon, Marantz and Sony. Interestingly enough, none claim any benefit other than Denon saying it makes the signal more "accurate."

Vibrations can cause the disc to move up and down, requiring the OPU to keep hunting to focus on the pits. For audio, the variable power consumption can impact audio clock/jitter. Same can happen for video but unlike audio, we are trying to output to a digital source so I can't see any harm in that.

So perhaps the only benefit is less chance of a read error in extreme, corner cases where the vibrations would push the OPU over the edge.

If someone can dig up any specific claim by a manufacturer, we can then try to examine that.
post #47 of 224
Quote:


The fact that the Oppo is relatively inexpensive for what it gives, unadulterated 480i DVD over HDMI and unadulterated 1080p24 Blu Ray over HDMI, is sensational - and it ain't no $1,000, $2,000 or more!!!@@@

This is what's known as "source direct" mode, and this is not the first player to do this (all Pioneers feature this, AFAIK, and first-gen Sonys manufactured by Pioneer).

And 480i doesn't mean unadulterated, as the last 12 years of mostly broken players have shown. This is where the mistakes tend to happen, especially since there isn't a higher level video processor in use (480i) before the output to mask some of the issues mentioned above.
post #48 of 224
Quote:


Steve is correct, the Oppo it is, and don't think for one second this is some lightweight cheaply built POS, it is a big departure from the normal Oppo stuff, I am proud to own it

With all the sight-unseen orders they're sure to receive, maybe they can finally hire a good industrial design firm so they can make a player that doesn't look like a cheaply built POS!

That said, I hope they reach something, as this would be a welcome departure from the horde of overpriced, under performing players.
post #49 of 224
I have had 4 Blu-ray players and I rate them as follows:

They are the Pioneer Elite
Play Station 3
First generation cheap Sony Blu ray
Recent Samsung

Picture quality Play Station and the Pioneer Elite are very similar. I purchased the Samsung just to hear the HD Audio, since my pre amplifier needs the signal to be decoded in the player and the Master DTS sounds better than basic no question, but the picture qulaity was not on par with PS3 or the Pioneer. It was not as sharp and lacked brightness. I took it back and I am waiting for the newer Pioneer.

Sound quality from the Pioneer (in the bass regions only) is more powerful with the Pioneer Elite than the PS3. I did numerous A/B and it was very easy to detect the Pioneer 10 out 10 times.

The early Sony just plain suc*ed in the Audio department.

JC
post #50 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by joeycalda View Post

The early Sony just plain suc*ed in the Audio department.

JC

Was that the first generation Sony BD player? If so, that was designed by Pioneer .
post #51 of 224
That spending 4k on a blue ray player is way too much.
































NOT!
LL
post #52 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

That spending 4k on a blue ray player is way too much.
NOT!

Oh, just realized which forum I was posting in .

Say, I didn't think the Crestron BD changer was shipping yet. How did you get your hands on three of them?
post #53 of 224
So in an "ideal" world, you would use HD-SDI into your PJ where available and the HDMI audio out to your SSP processor?

Sean
post #54 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by CINERAMAX View Post

That spending 4k on a blue ray player is way too much.














NOT!


I thought for a minute that you had turned over anew leaf.

Art
post #55 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gary Murrell View Post

where HD-SDI comes in is that it guarantees the purest cleanest 1080p/24 4:2:2 signal possible, processing is thrown aside, no colorspace conversions etc.

I'm wondering why you think this is true? It's typically not possible to ensure the video post-processing blocks are completely bypassed on a decoding SoC.
post #56 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by sierraalphahotel View Post

So in an "ideal" world, you would use HD-SDI into your PJ where available and the HDMI audio out to your SSP processor?

Sean

Well, in an ideal world you would want HDMI to work . We have a standard called HDMI. We need to put pressure on suppliers to make it work. HD-SDI is not the answer.
post #57 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Well, in an ideal world you would want HDMI to work . We have a standard called HDMI. We need to put pressure on suppliers to make it work. HD-SDI is not the answer.

It depends on what the question is. Should HD-SDI supplant HDMI? No. Until HDMI suppliers "make it work" is it a good alternative? Yes.
post #58 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by kjack View Post

I'm wondering why you think this is true? It's typically not possible to ensure the video post-processing blocks are completely bypassed on a decoding SoC.

based purely on my real world experiences of HD-SDI vs HDMI on the same player, visually seeing processing being bypassed(ringing, added sharpness etc.), colorspace conversions gone, stuff like that

-Gary
post #59 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by faberryman View Post

It depends on what the question is. Should HD-SDI supplant HDMI? No. Until HDMI suppliers "make it work" is it a good alternative? Yes.

Well, my worry is that HD-SDI is in a gray area regarding copy protection. There is no provision in AACS to allow a digital output like that. So companies can lose their AACS license to produce them (or have their devices revoked). And others creating hacks could get shut down. Even though I think HDMI is very poorly thought out standard, I don't see HD-SDI as a solution I would want to rely on.
post #60 of 224
Quote:
Originally Posted by faberryman View Post

It depends on what the question is. Should HD-SDI supplant HDMI? No. Until HDMI suppliers "make it work" is it a good alternative? Yes.

Thanks for clarifying my point faberryman. Indeed, if HD-SDI acts as a true "straight off the disk" to display conduit that can't be messed with, having access to content this way would not leave us at the mercy of the player manufacturers to get it right.

Sean
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