When did Kimber Heros get so expensive??? - Page 2

Exactly what happens (supposedly) in a cable after a "break-in" period and how do these guys determine when cable is "broken in".

Does the computer run faster after the phone lines are broken in?

Do lights burn brighter after the romex is broken in?

Does medical equipment measure bodily responses more accurately after break in and what about the patients who were first to use a new piece of gear?

There should millions of lawsuits if cable break-in was ever proven to be necessary.

Cables DO NOT break in, they knock first.


I have experienced cable break in, and the time varies from cable to cable. The dielectric is what changes the most, as with capacitors. If you move the cables, guess what? You get to break them in again!

My last IC (networked) purchase took about 2 weeks to settle. I bought the matching speaker cables (biwired networks) months later, they took a tortuous 6 weeks of almost 24/7 play to finally settle. I did not like them at all at first (so much for expectation bias), try as I might, numerous times. Now they complement my system nicely.

I maintain resistance welders at work. When older, used current carrying shunt straps are replaced with a new ones, the measured current is lower the first few cycles, and destructive testing of the weld, with trends tracked over time through Statistical Process Control, verifies that weld strength is lower at first as well.

Increases in current, weld strength and weld nugget size appear after a few cycles and stabilize around 50-100 cycles. Is this break in? I am the only audiophile at work, no one there besides me has ever heard of audio cable break in. But shunt strap cable break in is accepted as fact in the industry, with statistical and empirical evidence in tow to back it up.

Great, do you have the statstical and empirical evidence for this..

"The dielectric is what changes the most, as with capacitors. If you move the cables, guess what? You get to break them in again!" ??

What is the LCR value of these ICs again and what is the change in the LCR over your 6 weeks of settling?

Definitely the best post in a long time though, Its a keeper

Well, it's a good thing you didn't order the cables one meter shorter or longer then Tess. It would completely change the sound of your system!

I am amazed that some folks keep posting this claptrap without EVER posting any type of provable scientific evidence. The only "break-in" anyone needs to be concerned about is when the number of conductors that fracture from continuing flexing reduces the overall cross section of a solid electrical connection, or the insulation is compromised (broken).

At the frequencies and voltage present on properly made (NOT mega buck)IC cables, there is zero effect -new and stiff or old and flexible. The same holds true for speaker cables. Coax cables handling high frequencies and carrier are somewhat more prone to changes but for a very simple reason. If the coax is severely crushed, the capacitance of the cable can change affecting the signal. We routinely check our coax lines -miles of them- for physical damage.

DBT of cables revealed no audible difference between the one used for 200+ hours and the same cable fresh off the reel.

I do not own the data, so it is not mine to post. Would it really change your mind if I did post SPC (statistical) data and the attached notes (empirical) compiled over several years time by numerous techs? As I stated, this is common knowledge in the industry. Any other fabricators in here care to chime in with welding cable variances and their measurable effects?

You were going to try these out for yourself, what happened? I'll give you the link again below. Get them and you can gather the data you seek. Give them a listen while you are at it. Return them if you wish, it's a lending library.

"For our US customers we can offer nearly every cable, powerline product, and resonance control product for in-home evaluation through our famous Library service."

The data about your cables or welding?? I think you read my post wrong. Im 100% sure your welding data is just fine, the other fact is that I do not care about it.

I was asking about data behind this comment.

Im not sure about your cable break-in opinion at all and I was asking for data behind that.


I would have tried them, I sent all my information and they never replied. Im not chasing them down for it. Not exactly a quality CS company in terms of replying to potential customers.

Ah, you are asking me for cable break in data. You could get the cables and create your own data. It's more fun to listen through them, though.


You tried to get cables from http://thecableco.com/index.php? I think you are mistaken, although I do know what you are referring to. The actual cable company's lending library duties were given to one of their dealers.

But it isn't going to happen anyway, so I guess we are done here.

Got them when they first came out in the 90's, I thought they were only $100+. $350 for a pair of cables is downright nuts, and not even a good sounding one if you believe in that as I did.

I own 4 sets of Hero cable, 2 1 meter and 2 2 meter runs, they were a step up from the standard cables I swapped them for at the time.that was about 2 years ago maybe. I also have Audioquest speaker and connnector cables and a few other notable brands.
When I changed them I liked the results, and no I dont listen in a lab like some booger eating poindexter with a pocket protector.
It will always amaze me how some insist on calling out others for what they buy and enjoy, so ready to crap on anyones enjoyment as if their life is somehow so void they get pleasure in slapping others around. If I or anyone else buys a cable of any cost or brand, it affects nobody else. It doesnt take away any air you breath, sun you get warmth from or water you need to live.
It doesnt hurt kids, puppies, grandmas and its no threat to freedom.
So save your spreadsheets for emergency toilet paper incase you run out and please get over yourselves...........isnt life short enough?

Excellent example of the logic and compelling rhetorical ability of the subjectivist. You really do show the depth of thought behind your opinions.

Well done.

Sorry, but some of us just don't appreciate people lying to them. I'll call you out for thinking cables break in because you're lying. Whether you realize you're lying or not is irrelevant. It's like telling someone the world is flat. I don't care if that's what you believe or want to believe. It's wrong and you shouldn't be telling people that you've experienced how flat the world is, because it's untruthful.

And when people say untruthful things, more naive people are led to believe them. If you want to believe what you believe, believe it. Just don't tell me or anyone else lies.

So for the $$ you have in cables (assuming that you paid market value) I have been able to build Jim Holtz's Statements.

Can I at least assume that you have a very high echelon speaker system? I really get a kick out of some one with $1200 in cables, $3K of amp pushing $5K of speaker.

All this repetitive, abject silliness about cable break-in before using and after any movement of the cable to vacuum, etc got me thinking.

Can you imagine the break-in necessary for submarine telephony and power cables? Let's see, a 2,000 mile cable with line powered amplifiers in the cable every 150 miles dropped into 15,000 ft of water that is 30-40 degrees and under about about 7,000psi. Yet somehow the signals get through clear as a bell.

Amazing. Does JPS make submarine cable?

Ok Tess. I am going to get some more Belden 5000ue speaker cable. I will tin the ends with 4% silver flux core solder.

I'll bet you $100 to charity. Your charity if you win, my charity if I win:

That if I send you two cables not burned in, and two cables burned in (I have an amp and speakers sitting around that I can play pink noise through for 20 days (480 hours of burn in) ).

That with any ears only method of your choosing you won't be able to tell which are which. Now I already tried this at Polk Forum and had no takers from all the know it all's. So 'hear' is your chance. Regardless you can keep the cables.

Cables will be randomly marked so you don't know which are which. I will create simple text file with which cable is which and put it in a password protected / encrypted zip file and send it to you, Giz, Williamzx11, Penn, whomever you choose. Take a day, take a month, take two months. Tell me which is which. Tell me which two are burned in and which two are not.

I now wait for your answer and hopefully none of the excuses that I heard before elsewhere.

Expensive cables are room decorations, nothing more. But the people who are actively beating that notion into those who bought them are simply jealous that the buyer has too much money to waste on useless stuff or jealous of the seller who made a load of $ lying to people. But why take it upon yourself to save others and be the police of the audio world? If it makes those buyers happy then more power to them.

Then why even have an audio enthusiast forum? I mean you have 1700 posts here and you still haven't figured out what boards like these are for?

BTW It would be fun to compare/contrast your Newforms with my Statements.

Yes why indeed when it all comes down to buy what you like and screw others opinions. Why bother discussing high end audio when the same discussion has been going on for decades? You can buy an expensive pair of speakers and never hook them up but if it makes you happy then more power to ya...

Many people here have come here to learn what is fact, fiction or how to set up equipment, rooms etc. We have successfully gotten through to some as to the sheer lunacy of most all the audiophool equipment /cable claims and saved them hundreds to thousands and even better, helped them avoid the self realization that they may have been swindled.

That doesn't seem to be the case. In fact, decades of exploitation of the hobby was because you scientists haven't been able to make a single amp that is perceived as being superior sounding by 100% of the market or a speaker that sounds identical to the real thing regardless of the room. It is because of your inability and failings that you let others take advantage of the market. In a way they are the smart ones, this is an industry afterall. Whining doesn't solve the problem, instead either you use the knowledge that there is mucho money to be made by selling snake oil or make something that completely revolutionize the market. Heroes don't whine...

Then again the whole point of purchasing something is to make yourself feel good. Often just a pretty case will do...

I have no clue what point you're trying to make with that first paragraph, but I agree with the second.

I've made a similar point using watches as an example. People spend thousands on a watch. Not because it keeps better time then the $25 one, but because they like the way it looks, feels on their wrist and how they feel owning it. There is nothing wrong with that.

Right, why would you spend 8K on an Aqualung when the new Superocean is 15 times more water resistant and is only 2K? But some watch companies like JLC do have history behind them and worth buying as pieces of art if functionally inferior to a Seiko (spring drive ones anyway)...

I wasn't knocking that you have a $500 aesthetic only cable. I was simply taking to task that others aren't allowed to express their own opinion for a person new to this hobby.

Just recently a used Rolex went for $65K on ebay. The seller was quite shocked. I don't see any MIT, OPUS, JPS etc ever having that cache.

Your paychecks are ready.

Or a pair of Usher BE-718 that hasn't been used once in the last year or so.

I have no problem with others trying to guide or educate a newbie to steer him or her away from the snake oils. But to do it like a jihad would seem extreme to me... and a waste of time... unless you got time to waste... which makes me wonder if those scientists are retired, or have no family, or no life...

A used Rolex may have value depending on the availability and model. Electronics almost never hold their value except when they're discontinued and some guy overseas is looking for that particular model and willing to pay more than new due to the inflation and all. Like my neighbor's $200K system with levinsons + long gone Apogee...

I would have no problem at all if those gullible enough to waste money on a piece of wire with absolutely zero technical proof of performance claims if those producing them and buying them simply and openly used purely subjective claims. Sadly they try to convince others of the veracity of those claims.

We would let them rave on unimpeded IF they would say in their testimonials

"I THINK I hear different things when using these cables. I know not one single manufacturer of these cables nor anyone else in any testing laboratory has ever been about to quantify these 'changes' but I like convincing myself that they are real. As an added feature, they sent me a very nice tin foil hat with a solid oak audiophile carrying case with a static muting red velvet lining to prevent any amount of logic from the real world from filtering in. They even provided a signed certification that I bought these".

Seriously guys, are none of you mega buck cable devotees not at all curious as to WHY you never see actual performance graphs on these cable when you buy your equipment based on performance numbers? Are you not at all curious why the amplifiers and speakers do not contain these ridiculous cables?

Ever ask your self why someone who sells a 50,000.00 amplifier does not include the mega buck welding cable AC cable?

Is there any other section of daily reality you refuse to recognize?

BTW, I have signed copies of my books on alchemy and turning distilled water into high octane gasoline. Please send me a SASE and 35,000.00 in a cashiers check and I will mail them to you as soon as the check clears the bank.