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Optoma 8200 Review - Page 3

post #61 of 211
"explain why you think you would end up with a different Brightness setting if you calibrated it with the DB off than with the DB on."

I'll probably have to raise the brightness with DB on.
I see what you're getting at the mirror dithering point will always be the same. DB looks to be a great way to get the blacks lower as long as there aren't any by products, plus you keep all the brightness and mid brightness the bulb has to offer.

Much better than locking down an Iris and lowering the projectors overall brightness. Specially when the lamp starts aging which is pretty fast. I measured the Sharp Z2000 which is considered very bright at 18ft-candles when new, 650hours later 7ft-candles. So DB if it looks right will give you the most out of your lamp, every bit of brightness it can offer from day one to half life and on.
Let me go see if I can find the UPS truck, can't wait.
post #62 of 211
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Mark,

I just noticed something that seems a little odd. I noticed that you said the on/off CR was about 2000:1 with the DB off. But your chart of intra-image CRs as gray is swept from 0 to 100%stim shows less than 1000:1. I had been thinking that you were using just a little bit of non-black in that image, so that with a high ANSI CR compared to native on/off CR projector like this you would get close to the native on/off CR for your measurements in that image when you used 100%stim. Do the images for that one contain just a little bit of non-black? Do you do your measurements for black near those non-black parts? I'm trying to understand how you got so much less intra-image CR than on/off CR there without DB on and then what that means for the almost 2k:1 intra-image CR you got with DB on.

--Darin

This is a very good question. The test pattern uses perfect black (RGB=0) rather than video black everywhere except for 4 small rectangles that surround the probe area being measured. The four small rectangles contain the white stimulus that is ramped from 1% of video black to video white (235) and they are relatively close proximity-wise to the probe area being measured. They are close enough to where even a high ANSI contrast projector like the 8200 can have a measurably raised black level compared to full field black. In this particular case though the 8200 has such a high black level floor (DB=off) that it looks like it's capturing the floor throughout the range (this can be seen from the graph of the black readings). So it should end up yielding very close to the numbers that I measured for on/off.

Looking through the data I can see that the white reading is low throughout and it's not something that I'm surprised at. As I mentioned, sometimes I would see situations where the lamp brightness would be inconsistent even though nothing had changed. For example, I once measured ANSI contrast at 720:1 with a white reading of 1390 and black at 1.93, later the lamp output inexplicably changed so that the white reading dropped to 760 which gave a black reading of 1.37 and a contrast of 553. This was independent of any modes or adjustments being set and happened after the lamp had cycled (flickered and gone dark for a brief instant) due to the bug that I mentioned. I had reported this to Optoma and I think it's related to test pattern bug which they have confirmed. In fact, I've been calling it lamp flicker but what is really going on is the lamp steps down quickly in brightness and then goes black briefly before coming back up and I think something is going on with the ramp down where it doesn't come back up to full brightness.

Because of the lamp and iris inconsistencies I had to reduce my expectations a little as far as the data that I took and rather than comparing it to other projectors like I had done with the static low APL test patterns. Instead I focused on the dynamic data only and in particular only relative measurements between modes, that way if the lamp was reading low or there were other issues at least it was doing so consistently between modes. It was a disappointment though to not be able to add it in the mix of projectors measured in the contrast thread as far as static contrast vs luminance. The 8200 is an interesting combination of high ANSI and average on/off and it would be interesting to see where the crossover is at similar to what we had done with the Sharp 20K, RS1 and Sony VW50.

To ensure that the readings were reproducible, I took multiple readings at each point to ensure that it was repeatable and then also went back and repeated the entire suite of measurements a second time to ensure that the measurements were consistent and that the peaks and dips weren't due to something that had changed between readings. Both the white and black readings were consistent the second time around.

Given all of the issues though, I really wondered how much data to post and if it would be better to post just ANSI and on/off numbers, but I thought that the results showing the large amount of intra-image contrast benefits and also black reduction were worthwhile. All in all though I'd really like to repeat all of these results once Optoma fixes the lamp/test pattern bug.
post #63 of 211
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike infinity View Post

The problem, though, is that lowering the contrast to eliminate crush reduces picture quality on brighter scenes where DB had no crush in the first place. Its the achilles heel of these DI algorigthms IMO.

That's my take on it too.

Quote:


Any scene that has near peak bright areas but is overall dark so that the DI clamps down will show it I would imagine...at least thats how it worked on my W5000. On Wall-e you can spot it during the 'space flight' scene when the AXIOM first comes into view. The bright edge of the ship is totally crushed. Its also easy to spot in side by sides with the JVC PJs...you can spot it more frequently if you look for it.

Once you spot it, you can use those scenes as a reference and tweak the settings to see the difference.

Yes, I fully agree. If a person is familiar enough with the content they know what to look for and can spot it. With new content though it's really difficult to know. A side by side will also show it clearly.
post #64 of 211
Got it! ceiling mounted and I'm watching National Treasure 2 in Cin1. This must be a good one because so far DB has worked flawlessly. The image is very sharp with a heavy 3D effect, blacks are deep and colors are saturated heavy but look natural. What's not to like here. I took a quick look at cin2 and it looked good also, yes you might see a glimpse of the iris doing something but it's so fast like in a wink of an eye. I'll keep watching

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/hd8200pj.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/hd8200london.jpg

Clouds in the London shot don't look crushed, clouds from England probably never looked crushed.
post #65 of 211
Glad you are enjoying it. It really does through a great picture. Do you have the Dark Night? If you do can you check a few scenes. Thanks
post #66 of 211
Ft candles are 17 in bright and 13 in econo, that breaks down to 560lumens birght and 430 lumens econo on a 106" diagonal 1.0 gain screen. But actually I use a Dalight High Power screen so what I see is a brighter picture. I get the projector mounted down as much as possible to pick up the dalites screen gain. 560 and 430 are decent lumens a 1.0.

I should note also that I have the projector mounted far back 15', far from max zoom so you could add 20 25% when mounted at max zoom / closer to the screen. Which would make lumens more like 700 in bright and 535 in econo. That's on a 106" diag 1.0 screen.
post #67 of 211
Ok the Ti Dynamic Black, before I get too blasted (it's Friday night). Here's what I see with DB in use. Ti has a great system here it is extremely fast operating, it like flows with the video. I'm viewing Dark City on BLue Ray which is loaded with Ansi loving scenes, dark with bright lights. If you can spot a movement of luminance it's so fast and natural like when you blink your eye that I find it non obtrusive.

Spotting a glimpse of a luminance change at lightning speed isn't the end of the world. Sit back and enjoy a movie because when the scene is settled and very dark this DB creates a deep cavern of black that I haven't scene on any DP till today. The HD8200 is a great projector.
Cin 1 by the way. Cin 2 does get aggressive but with the right movie it could be exceptional. All in all just more things to play around with.
I'd love to buy this projector.

By the way you absolutely have to buy Dark City on Blue Ray, the video is more than excellent and the sound 7.1 HD DTS-Master matches the video quality.
post #68 of 211
OK maybe I just don't understand how this works but I am confused as to why my lumens reading is so much higher. Mark explained the difference with his but Tom our projectors are mounted the same. Mine is 15ft back but on a 110" screen (Stewart Studioteck G3).

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarman View Post

Ft candles are 17 in bright and 13 in econo, that breaks down to 560lumens birght and 430 lumens econo on a 106" diagonal 1.0 gain screen. But actually I use a Dalight High Power screen so what I see is a brighter picture. I get the projector mounted down as much as possible to pick up the dalites screen gain. 560 and 430 are decent lumens a 1.0.

I should note also that I have the projector mounted far back 15', far from max zoom so you could add 20 25% when mounted at max zoom / closer to the screen. Which would make lumens more like 700 in bright and 535 in econo. That's on a 106" diag 1.0 screen.
post #69 of 211
It could be the device to read the light level. I use a dedicated light meter not the color sensor a calibrating system uses. Light meters reading light level are more accurate.
post #70 of 211
Tom,

In what ways do you feel this projector excells over the Optoma HD80?

Please be specific!!

Thanks Joey
post #71 of 211
It's looks 10 times better. Like when you saw your first Sony Trinitron, it was just scores above the rest of the TV's.
post #72 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarman View Post

Got it! ceiling mounted and I'm watching National Treasure 2 in Cin1. This must be a good one because so far DB has worked flawlessly. The image is very sharp with a heavy 3D effect, blacks are deep and colors are saturated heavy but look natural. What's not to like here. I took a quick look at cin2 and it looked good also, yes you might see a glimpse of the iris doing something but it's so fast like in a wink of an eye. I'll keep watching

http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/hd8200pj.jpg
http://www.cigarbest.com/sales/hd8200london.jpg

Clouds in the London shot don't look crushed, clouds from England probably never looked crushed.

I have been awaiting more reviews of this machine. I anticipated a glowing review from Guitarman so I decided to see if I could view another HD8200 after my first viewing (a purchase from AVS that was quickly returned) did not work out so well.

I setup time with a local installer on Thursday through AVAD to view the machine in my home because of my concern with the dynamic iris. Again I could see (and the installer agreed) the iris working in both implementations (AI was turned off), but it not as bad as my first machine. Maybe it has something to do with the build dates? I dont know, but from what I have seen the iris on the 8200 is more noticeable than a blink of an eye. It usually lags behind the picture for 1 second and catches up when it doesnt seem to need to.

My recommendation is to purchase the unit and then see if you can notice the iris. I believe that most of us in this forum will be bothered by the iris, but again thats something only your eyes can tell you.

Otherwise I believe BenQ just announced there new DLP projector so that might be something to wait for as well.
post #73 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarman View Post

Ti has a great system here it is extremely fast operating, it like flows with the video. I'm viewing Dark City on BLue Ray which is loaded with Ansi loving scenes, dark with bright lights. If you can spot a movement of luminance it's so fast and natural like when you blink your eye that I find it non obtrusive.

Spotting a glimpse of a luminance change at lightning speed isn't the end of the world.

Cin 1 by the way. Cin 2 does get aggressive but with the right movie it could be exceptional.

The luminance changes I saw in Cinema 1 were very slow, purposely, according to Wing. At the beginning of a scene I could see the iris slowly ramp up. The opposite of a blink of the eye or lightning speed. These were on difficult transitions with "Dark Knight". My hope is that with movies that aren't so demanding, Cinema 1 could be pretty unobtrusive. Cinema 2 is a non-starter, as is AI.

I must say that I might miss the lumens that my HD81-LV throws, but since I run with iris at 11, maybe the difference using DB on the 8200 wouldn't be that great. The 8200 I saw at Optoma on a 160" screen looked pretty bright to me and the blacks were fantastic with Cinema 1.
post #74 of 211
I did own the Sony HS60 and Pany AX100 and the HD8200 iris does just as good as those do. Better in that there's no BC. I think the problem could be like with rainbows now, some will just be over sensitive. I'm watching Dark City again right now, a movie that should send the PJ into a tail spin, nothing nothing at all.
post #75 of 211
I assume you all did but owners should tune the blacks and white with DB on. I did notice on the HD DVE contrast pattern the top end of the scale was blotted/crushed out. Tune that down and go back and forth checking the brightness level again. I think this will make movies more enjoyable and for the Iris sensitive you'll see less of what you're seeing. In the pattern you could see the big swing up to bleeching out the highs and that has to show up in video. So tune up

The pattern let me explain this better, it's the pattern oh about 12 steps up from the brightness pattern on HD-DVE. One of my complaints to Joe Kane, why not have them next to each other. The pattern has graysteps criss cross and after a while it inverts them. Anyway what I was seeing with the projector as you first look at the pattern is a live moving effect on the patterns top end grays as the Iris or pulsing takes effect. So it stands to reason if you make this effect less strong by lowering the contast till the gray boxes are stable that you'll see less of a problem in the video.
post #76 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Regan View Post

The luminance changes I saw in Cinema 1 were very slow, purposely, according to Wing. At the beginning of a scene I could see the iris slowly ramp up. The opposite of a blink of the eye or lightning speed. These were on difficult transitions with "Dark Knight". My hope is that with movies that aren't so demanding, Cinema 1 could be pretty unobtrusive. Cinema 2 is a non-starter, as is AI.

I must say that I might miss the lumens that my HD81-LV throws, but since I run with iris at 11, maybe the difference using DB on the 8200 wouldn't be that great. The 8200 I saw at Optoma on a 160" screen looked pretty bright to me and the blacks were fantastic with Cinema 1.

Wing said he wouldn't trade away the HD80LV for the 8200. Not that it's either is better but it's just not enough of an upgrade, a trade off.
post #77 of 211
"Otherwise I believe BenQ just announced there new DLP projector"

Any more info? Googling just got me ols product announcements.
post #78 of 211
Noah there is a thread here at AVS on the new BenQ 6000 it is in the >$3k forum.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1127322
post #79 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarman View Post

I'm viewing Dark City on BLue Ray ...

Could you please go to about the 5:08 or 5:09 mark in the Director's version where the main character is going down the stairs with a light at the bottom that also shines off one or both walls, then change the Contrast setting until there is no visible clipping or crushing with the DB on versus off and report on what that Contrast setting would be versus calibrating the Contrast with the DB off. I'm wondering how much (if any) you need to lower the Contrast setting in order to avoid any clipping or crushing in a scene like that. It would also be interesting to know how much that Contrast setting would lower the lumens for a full white screen over setting Contrast with the DB off.

Thanks,
Darin
post #80 of 211
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarman View Post

I assume you all did but owners should tune the blacks and white with DB on. I did notice on the HD DVE contrast pattern the top end of the scale was blotted/crushed out. Tune that down and go back and forth checking the brightness level again. I think this will make movies more enjoyable and for the Iris sensitive you'll see less of what you're seeing. In the pattern you could see the big swing up to bleeching out the highs and that has to show up in video. So tune up

The pattern let me explain this better, it's the pattern oh about 12 steps up from the brightness pattern on HD-DVE. One of my complaints to Joe Kane, why not have them next to each other. The pattern has graysteps criss cross and after a while it inverts them. Anyway what I was seeing with the projector as you first look at the pattern is a live moving effect on the patterns top end grays as the Iris or pulsing takes effect. So it stands to reason if you make this effect less strong by lowering the contast till the gray boxes are stable that you'll see less of a problem in the video.

Do you mind posting your contrast settings for DB=off, DB=cinema1 and DB=cinema2 using a typical bright pattern like the one in the AVS709 test disk? I think I mentioned this already, but because DB is engaged only in low APL scenes it shouldn't have an affect on the contrast setting with a typical bright contrast test pattern. It would be interesting to repeat the process using this pattern and see what the difference is.

Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarman View Post

I'm watching Dark City again right now, a movie that should send the PJ into a tail spin, nothing nothing at all.

That's interesting as I could see the iris working in quite a few scenes in that movie. The interior of the car scene at the beginning of Ch. 14 was a good example. If you're not seeing anything there, then there may be some unit to unit variations based on the final calibration or something.
post #81 of 211
"Noah there is a thread here at AVS on the new BenQ 6000 it is in the >$3k forum."

Don't know how I missed that, thanks.
post #82 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by darinp2 View Post

Could you please go to about the 5:08 or 5:09 mark in the Director's version where the main character is going down the stairs with a light at the bottom that also shines off one or both walls, then change the Contrast setting until there is no visible clipping or crushing with the DB on versus off and report on what that Contrast setting would be versus calibrating the Contrast with the DB off. I'm wondering how much (if any) you need to lower the Contrast setting in order to avoid any clipping or crushing in a scene like that. It would also be interesting to know how much that Contrast setting would lower the lumens for a full white screen over setting Contrast with the DB off.

Thanks,
Darin

Darin I didn't see any clipping in that scene at factory contrast setting or the tuned one. I did notice that any chance of seeing an Iris function is less or gone when tuning the contrast to the factory setting when using Cin2. Tuned I could see when the 3 guys are getting off the elevator the shading to black was stronger with contrast tuned. That could be natural because blacks are darker. Actually I prefer the image with the contrast way up at factory. What to do
post #83 of 211
"That's interesting as I could see the iris working in quite a few scenes in that movie. The interior of the car scene at the beginning of Ch. 14 was a good example. If you're not seeing anything there, then there may be some unit to unit variations based on the final calibration or something."

That scene had no effect in cin2 or cin1. I did notice the video does have flicker from the movie sets lighting DB on or DB off so maybe that's not a good scene to judge with.
__________________
post #84 of 211
Mark I just tuned the black and white with DB off then turned DB on and the whites don't crush with the Pattern, blacks stayed correct also.
post #85 of 211
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarman View Post

Darin I didn't see any clipping in that scene at factory contrast setting or the tuned one. I did notice that any chance of seeing an Iris function is less or gone when tuning the contrast to the factory setting when using Cin2. Tuned I could see when the 3 guys are getting off the elevator the shading to black was stronger with contrast tuned. That could be natural because blacks are darker. Actually I prefer the image with the contrast way up at factory. What to do

What is the factor Contrast setting and what is your tuned value? Have you measured the white level between the 2?

Thanks,
Darin
post #86 of 211
Tuned with the Iris off I got similar numbers as with on, contrast goes to 38 from 44 factory and brightness gets set to 44. I haven't used my colorfacts equipment yet but the grayscale look perfect in the gray test patterns. I did check the color patterns and they also were good.
post #87 of 211
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarman View Post

That scene had no effect in cin2 or cin1. I did notice the video does have flicker from the movie sets lighting DB on or DB off so maybe that's not a good scene to judge with.
__________________

Actually it's the dynamic lighting in the movie combined with the many dark scenes that makes Dark City an acid test for irises. There are a lot of static scenes (scenes where the camera or actors don't move very much) but the lighting changes and either gets brighter or dimmer. Sometimes the brightness change is due to a light flicker or other times by a swinging light (like the one in the main menu). If the iris changes in those scenes it's much more noticeable than if it happens at the beginning of an abrupt scene change.

Ch. 14 has exactly that sort of a scene in it. There is a close up of an actors face, (I think it's Keiifer Sutherland). The actors face gets brighter as they pass a light source that is off camera (probably another car) and I could see the iris change in that scene with both C1 and C2.

I used the same scene to check out Shep's returned 8200 and with his it looked like the iris aperture wasn't changing but the lamp became brighter, so the image brightness seemed to slowly bloom. I think the issue with his is a bad iris though.
post #88 of 211
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by guitarman View Post

Tuned with the Iris off I got similar numbers as with on, contrast goes to 38 from 44 factory and brightness gets set to 44. I haven't used my colorfacts equipment yet but the grayscale look perfect in the gray test patterns. I did check the color patterns and they also were good.

Okay so just so I understand this correctly. You're saying that with typical test patterns used for adjusting brightness and contrast that you're not seeing a difference with any of the dynamic black modes correct? This sounds consistent with what I noticed also.

If this is true then do I take the earlier comments about tuning to a specific DB mode to mean adjusting it with a dark pattern when the DB mode is engaged? It this is all true then it sounds like what a person has to do to avoid white crush in dark scenes is to "tune"/adjust it for the specific dark scene source content that they are viewing which seems pretty impractical when watching a new movie. Not only that but once tuned the contrast setting will be wrong in bright scenes when DB is not engaged.
post #89 of 211
Mostly I find the iris stable, I did find a scene in The Game where Mike D is going to fire the old guy from the Thirteenth Floor movie. This scene has Mike in the dark and the old guy standing in front of a wall of lit up windows and it moves back and forth between him and Mike. You can see the light change at each moment.

The scene is chapter 6 34mins into the movie.

I'm guessing with this type of scene any iris would be visible, if not what could be a way to fix it. Seems there's a trade off of having an Iris act lightning fast or having it gradually making it changes. What do you think?

I'll ask Wing if theres a way to speed up or slow down the reaction time in the service menu.
post #90 of 211
This is very interesting I decided to watch that scene with the contrast put back to the factory 44 from where I have it tuned down to 38 and there are no noticable side effects in the scene at all now, strange.
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