AVS › AVS Forum › Video Components › Home Theater Computers › Slysoft's Slyplayer
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Slysoft's Slyplayer - Page 5

post #121 of 172
4/14/09 at 5:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjmarchini View Post

I think a number of folks are overlooking what to me is the obvious, why would they release a player?

They already have a product that for many is essential in order to play back blurays. I would think that it is to their benefit to let other companies get killed with playback problems.

It reminds me of the California gold rush. The onlys that made money were the ones selling the shovels.

It would be nice to have a player, but I would take WinDVD 9 over a stripped down player which is probably what you will get when it is free.

All in all, AnyDVD HD is a good product, but it isn't cheap. Furthermore, they are not a perfect company with perfect products. I picked up their game jackal, and many games play with it but many games do not.

Well supposing it's true that it will "strip down" BD-J, (which is, by all accounts, including the developers', NOT true), some of us would still like a player that decodes audio properly, and some would even say they'd like non-downsampled audio from anything higher than 16/48. Oh, yeah, and doesn't crash randomly, and doesn't require praying and finger-crossing when you insert a bluray you haven't played before, and lets you choose which audio device you'd like to use (latest builds of both PowerDVD 8 and 9 don't let you), etc, etc. We'll take that functionality over BD-J functionality.

And not having BD-J doesn't mean not having access to extra features, it just means not having access to the bloated graphics and menus.

The developers at Slysoft, unlike Cyberlink's and TMT's, have the same ideals as we do regarding what a player should behave like.
Reply
Reply

AVS Top Picks

post #122 of 172
4/14/09 at 6:33pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobSalita View Post

So it appears that any US copyright or patent infringement action cannot be taken against Antigua. However, non-US copyright actions can be taken against Antigua under the Berne convention (Antigua is a party to Berne). So if Dolby has a non-US copyright that's infringed by SlyPlayer, Dolby could take action. Regarding non-US patents, I've got no relevant info.

I am certainly not a lawyer however I think that Dolby does have patents on their technology internationally, how else could they protect their patent portfolio? For example if a software programmer in Elbonia* wanted to make use of Dolby Digital, without a patent in place there, Dolby would have no legal recourse to prevent the Elbonian* software company from using it I think.

(*The Republic of Elbonia is a fictional country supposedly in Eastern Europe from Scott Adams' comic strip Dilbert.)
Reply
Reply
post #123 of 172
4/14/09 at 6:45pm
One thing they have going for them, there are quite a few developers who most likely will be giving them hand. I can see them coming out with a player based on something that already exists (MPC, Foobar, etc...). I just want a simple player that plays video well and sends bit-for-bit audio to the receiver, thats all! Having all the nice screens, menus, bells and wistles not exactly helping tmt or pdvd, and i could care less for all the bloat. AnyDVD already does excellent job, add it to a player that can do audio the right way and i'll be happy.
Reply
Reply
post #124 of 172
4/14/09 at 10:23pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

No, I am not joking. They could be miracle workers and wouldn't do them any good. Not only do they have to write incredible number of lines of code to interpret BD-J, but also have to be bug-for-bug compatible with PS3. This means testing with thousands of BD titles and carefully implementing hacks after hacks as to play that movie, but not break others. This takes time and lots of effort.

Well, before contributing to WSR, I managed HD DVD development at Microsoft among other things. My HDi team (counterpart to BD-J) had 80 engineers in it. Now, they had a bigger job than slysoft but still, this is no easy walk in the park.


They have to play by the same rules as every other computer programmer. BD-J spec doesn't magically shrink from thousands of pages to two just because Slysoft is trying to implement it.

Note that I am not saying they can't do it. Other smaller companies you name have gotten there more or less. But they have a 3-year headstart over them....

Would it be possible for them to have full subtitle and audio support without having BD-J or the basic menu system (can't remmeber what it's called)?

Playing from streams would be fine as long as I had control of the audio streams and subtitles.
Reply
Reply
post #125 of 172
4/14/09 at 10:51pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsb View Post

Would it be possible for them to have full subtitle and audio support without having BD-J or the basic menu system (can't remmeber what it's called)?

Audio is easy. But if subtitles are rendered using BD-J, then that is a challenge. However, there are existing ways to find the subtitles and render them indpendently.

Quote:


Playing from streams would be fine as long as I had control of the audio streams and subtitles.

I would say this goal is well within reach.
Reply
Reply
post #126 of 172
4/14/09 at 11:40pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by tsb View Post

Would it be possible for them to have full subtitle and audio support without having BD-J or the basic menu system (can't remmeber what it's called)?

Playing from streams would be fine as long as I had control of the audio streams and subtitles.

Yeah, of course subs will be available. I asked James how non-Java mode would work actually (pretty much the same question you're asking). He said he didn't know exactly, but it could be context menus or tree view.

All these questions you guys are wondering about actually are answered at the Slysoft Player thread at the Slysoft forums. Just check the first few pages.
Reply
Reply
post #127 of 172
4/14/09 at 11:43pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Audio is easy. But if subtitles are rendered using BD-J, then that is a challenge. However, there are existing ways to find the subtitles and render them indpendently.


I would say this goal is well within reach.

Amir, the developers have made clear that BD-J will be available. They have also implied, if not flat out stated (maybe I missed it), that it's a PITA, as you say. That's why there's no priority for them to implement HDi, although the player will also play HD-DVD in stripped Java form. Refer to the thread I linked above.
Reply
Reply
post #128 of 172
4/15/09 at 1:51am
I just want it to use EVR or even VMR9 : anything but overlay.
That way I'll be able to use professional color management software.
Reply
Reply
post #129 of 172
4/15/09 at 5:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjmarchini View Post

I think a number of folks are overlooking what to me is the obvious, why would they release a player?

Because it is clear that the current authors of players are having their arm twisted to break AnyDVD - dropping playback from folders, trying to break iso playback, even scanning for evidence of AnyDVD.

I suspect there are two objectives:

1. to provide an alternative player if the current players continue down their current path

2. to try to discourage the current writers of players from trying too hard to break AnyDVD for fear of losing much/most of their retail revenue.
Reply
Reply
post #130 of 172
4/15/09 at 6:01am
so its a player that will play all BLU RAY / HD DVD movies from any region....

in proper 1080p/24fps bitstream all audio (DTS MA/Dolby TruHD/PCM)

using any HDMI GFX card or sound card that supports HDMI audio 7.1 ?


hmmm will all HDMI cards that support HDMI 7.1 output bitstream the new HD codecs if protective audio path is not needed ? or is this a hardware limitation?
Reply
Reply
post #131 of 172
4/15/09 at 6:09am
What I can't understand is why the existing players won't allow bitstreaming of audio using eg the HDMI out on an ATI 4xxx, forcing people to spend another $100 on a Xonar. Surely if the video is protected path the audio is too?
Reply
Reply
post #132 of 172
4/15/09 at 6:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by trailergod View Post

so its a player that will play all BLU RAY / HD DVD movies from any region....

in proper 1080p/24fps bitstream all audio (DTS MA/Dolby TruHD/PCM)

using any HDMI GFX card or sound card that supports HDMI audio 7.1 ?

Where did you read that?
Reply
Reply
post #133 of 172
4/15/09 at 6:42am
Quote:
Originally Posted by fraggermcg View Post

What I can't understand is why the existing players won't allow bitstreaming of audio using eg the HDMI out on an ATI 4xxx, forcing people to spend another $100 on a Xonar. Surely if the video is protected path the audio is too?

Nope, the audio needs its own protected path as well. So far, only ASUS has bothered to spend the time and large amounts of money to create that path. Due to the way the rules are written, the hardware vendor must partner with a software vendor to use the protected path. ASUS partnered with Arcsoft.
Reply
Reply
post #134 of 172
4/15/09 at 9:13am
Quote:
Originally Posted by trailergod View Post

so its a player that will play all BLU RAY / HD DVD movies from any region....

in proper 1080p/24fps bitstream all audio (DTS MA/Dolby TruHD/PCM)

using any HDMI GFX card or sound card that supports HDMI audio 7.1 ?


hmmm will all HDMI cards that support HDMI 7.1 output bitstream the new HD codecs if protective audio path is not needed ? or is this a hardware limitation?

The lossess audio will be decompressed to full resolution LPCM.
The player will use exclusive mode to grab control of your audio out away from windows.
It will then play, bit for bit, the exact decoded audio to your reciever.

While this is not bitstreaming, there is no reasons this should not sound exactly the same as bitstreamed audio. As it is exactly what happens with bitstreaming (the bit stream that gets to the DAC is identical).

Some people will say they can hear a difference between bitstream and lpcm input to a reciever, but nobody has any kind of explination why this would be. IMHO a subjective non-insturmented slight difference with no explination is just a physcological difference and not in fact a real difference.
Reply
Reply
post #135 of 172
4/15/09 at 1:21pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post

Well supposing it's true that it will "strip down" BD-J, (which is, by all accounts, including the developers', NOT true), some of us would still like a player that decodes audio properly, and some would even say they'd like non-downsampled audio from anything higher than 16/48. Oh, yeah, and doesn't crash randomly, and doesn't require praying and finger-crossing when you insert a bluray you haven't played before, and lets you choose which audio device you'd like to use (latest builds of both PowerDVD 8 and 9 don't let you), etc, etc. We'll take that functionality over BD-J functionality.

And not having BD-J doesn't mean not having access to extra features, it just means not having access to the bloated graphics and menus.

The developers at Slysoft, unlike Cyberlink's and TMT's, have the same ideals as we do regarding what a player should behave like.

I read posts like this and often think that I am the only one who does not have problems with WinDVD9 plus bluray. It has never let me down. I am ouputting via 5.1 analog out to my Onkyo and dvi/hdmi out to my projector so maybe that is the issue. I didn't like PowerDVD 7 when I tried it... and haven't tried 8. I did have problems with Nero. Arcsoft seemed to work ok.

Actually, WinDVD 9 has impressed me so far. I play alot of blurays on it too.

I have this on 4 different machines with different hardware as well so it is not case specific.

AMD x2 5K / ECS 7050 board / HD2600xt / W7 64 build 7000 - XP Pro SP3
AMD x2 5K / ECS 6050 board / HD2600pro / W7 64 build 7000 - xp pro SP3
AMD x2 4.2K / MSI nvidia based board / X1650GT / XP Pro XP3(has issues with stuttering AVC but that is the hardware)
AMD 64 3700 (OCd from 2.4 to 2.8) / X1650GT / XP pro sp3 (same as above)

all with 2GB Ram.

AnyDVD HD on all of them with the permanent license for updates (pre-January 2008).

I would try it I guess, but to this point, I would imagine that all of us already have a working solution. Still seems that you would need anydvd hd with their player. I would also think that problems will begin to go away as hardware sold becomes more compliant. As it is now, it is pretty hard to find many non-HDCP compliant vid cards on newegg.

As far as audio goes, I would also image that most are going to output to 2.0 speakers. Those of us with multi speaker systems are still in the minority. I even know two people that are just happy as a clam outputting their BD players via red/white composite to their systems. And many never get more than what comes physically on the TV. I tell them they are not getting the full experience, but most don't listen... or understand.
Reply
Reply
post #136 of 172
4/15/09 at 2:26pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Nope, the audio needs its own protected path as well. So far, only ASUS has bothered to spend the time and large amounts of money to create that path. Due to the way the rules are written, the hardware vendor must partner with a software vendor to use the protected path. ASUS partnered with Arcsoft.

The slysoft people don't seem to be bothered by these rules. I do think that legally, bitstreaming for them is much better than trying to decode the dolby formats. I think the ATI hardware is physically capable of bitstreaming (this has been mentioned on the slyplayer thread), so if they build in the proper support, that will be a great solution.
Reply
Reply
post #137 of 172
4/15/09 at 2:35pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjmarchini View Post

I read posts like this and often think that I am the only one who does not have problems with WinDVD9 plus bluray. It has never let me down. I am ouputting via 5.1 analog out to my Onkyo and dvi/hdmi out to my projector so maybe that is the issue. I didn't like PowerDVD 7 when I tried it... and haven't tried 8. I did have problems with Nero. Arcsoft seemed to work ok.

Actually, WinDVD 9 has impressed me so far. I play alot of blurays on it too.

I have this on 4 different machines with different hardware as well so it is not case specific.

AMD x2 5K / ECS 7050 board / HD2600xt / W7 64 build 7000 - XP Pro SP3
AMD x2 5K / ECS 6050 board / HD2600pro / W7 64 build 7000 - xp pro SP3
AMD x2 4.2K / MSI nvidia based board / X1650GT / XP Pro XP3(has issues with stuttering AVC but that is the hardware)
AMD 64 3700 (OCd from 2.4 to 2.8) / X1650GT / XP pro sp3 (same as above)

all with 2GB Ram.

AnyDVD HD on all of them with the permanent license for updates (pre-January 2008).

I would try it I guess, but to this point, I would imagine that all of us already have a working solution. Still seems that you would need anydvd hd with their player. I would also think that problems will begin to go away as hardware sold becomes more compliant. As it is now, it is pretty hard to find many non-HDCP compliant vid cards on newegg.

As far as audio goes, I would also image that most are going to output to 2.0 speakers. Those of us with multi speaker systems are still in the minority. I even know two people that are just happy as a clam outputting their BD players via red/white composite to their systems. And many never get more than what comes physically on the TV. I tell them they are not getting the full experience, but most don't listen... or understand.

For me WinDVD was always a bloated mess and never really worked when I tried it for DVD years ago, and at the time I was OK with PowerDVD. So I never had the incentive to try any WinDVD for bluray either. But then the reports of other people started coming out, they said that pretty much nothing had changed. That's why you almost never see mentioned WinDVD when people mention bluray players. I don't know if that has changed significantly with updates or what.

In any case, I am not willing to pay yet again for another player for a half-assed implementation. I wonder how it works with 7.1 and HDMI audio?
Reply
Reply
post #138 of 172
4/15/09 at 2:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

No, I am not joking. They could be miracle workers and wouldn't do them any good. Not only do they have to write incredible number of lines of code to interpret BD-J, but also have to be bug-for-bug compatible with PS3. This means testing with thousands of BD titles and carefully implementing hacks after hacks as to play that movie, but not break others. This takes time and lots of effort.
...
Note that I am not saying they can't do it. Other smaller companies you name have gotten there more or less. But they have a 3-year headstart over them....

not sure i would assume that headstart. if i were reverse engineering a system to accomplish what they have done with anydvd, i would at least create a simulated player for testing. if a big chunk of the code was already developed over the years to support anydvd development, a clever person might throw a demo together and attract enough company resources to finish the job.
Reply
Reply
post #139 of 172
4/15/09 at 4:46pm
Come to think of it, BD-J is such an incredibly complex specification to do what?

- display menus (while video is playing)
- process input (remote, keyboard, etc)
- change streams
- access the web (nobody uses it anyway)
- what else?

I had an idea for an MCML application (a Media Center add-in) that would do the following:

- read BD folder structure (index, playlists, etc.)
- play an .m2ts file (the largest one, or whichever is specified in an xml file) using DirectShow filters (assuming you own TMT or similar)
- present a simple menu of playlists, audio options, or subtitles (while video is playing)
- present an advanced menu based on an xml file (that could be provided by the community, much like backdrops or metadata with Media Browser). The format could even be MCML itself. Just as sophisticated as anything you can do with BD-J if not better.

Such a project could be easily managed by a single person, or better yet as an open source project. No decoding (relying on TMT), no interpreting BD-J (nor waiting for it to load, either), no legal issues (?), someone could write a bitstreaming audio filter (or a driver if necessary) for harware that supports it...

Any thoughts?
Reply
Reply
post #140 of 172
4/15/09 at 5:17pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ79 View Post

Come to think of it, BD-J is such an incredibly complex specification to do what?

Just about anything . Originally BD-J was slated to be used for advanced interactivity. BDMV (enhanced DVD menus) was to be used for generic menus and such. But now the studios are using BD-J for everything. Even simple menus are generated using BD-J.

Quote:


- display menus (while video is playing)
- process input (remote, keyboard, etc)
- change streams
- access the web (nobody uses it anyway)
- what else?

All of the above (plus things like subtitles). Even to find the movie to playback you may need to parse BD-J.

I had an idea for an MCML application (a Media Center add-in) that would do the following:

Quote:


- read BD folder structure (index, playlists, etc.)
- play an .m2ts file (the largest one, or whichever is specified in an xml file) using DirectShow filters (assuming you own TMT or similar)
- present a simple menu of playlists, audio options, or subtitles (while video is playing)
- present an advanced menu based on an xml file (that could be provided by the community, much like backdrops or metadata with Media Browser). The format could even be MCML itself. Just as sophisticated as anything you can do with BD-J if not better.

To the extent you can get the community to provide the XML, then it would work. Without it, automatic conversion will be difficult.
Reply
Reply
post #141 of 172
4/15/09 at 5:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by sotti View Post

The lossess audio will be decompressed to full resolution LPCM.
The player will use exclusive mode to grab control of your audio out away from windows.
It will then play, bit for bit, the exact decoded audio to your reciever.

While this is not bitstreaming, there is no reasons this should not sound exactly the same as bitstreamed audio. As it is exactly what happens with bitstreaming (the bit stream that gets to the DAC is identical).

Some people will say they can hear a difference between bitstream and lpcm input to a reciever, but nobody has any kind of explination why this would be. IMHO a subjective non-insturmented slight difference with no explination is just a physcological difference and not in fact a real difference.

and you also have to remember, this is EXACTLY what happens on a PS3, and there aren't a whole ton of people complaining all that loudly with that..
Reply
Reply
post #142 of 172
4/15/09 at 5:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by amirm View Post

Just about anything . Originally BD-J was slated to be used for advanced interactivity. BDMV (enhanced DVD menus) was to be used for generic menus and such. But now the studios are using BD-J for everything. Even simple menus are generated using BD-J.


All of the above (plus things like subtitles). Even to find the movie to playback you may need to parse BD-J.

I had an idea for an MCML application (a Media Center add-in) that would do the following:


To the extent you can get the community to provide the XML, then it would work. Without it, automatic conversion will be difficult.

Come to think of it, BDJ is based on Java...and Sun Microsystems owns Java...and Sun will either be dead in the not too distant future, if their sales don't pick up (which is highly unlikely) or they get acquired (probably by IBM as planned, but after a bitter negotiations round)...

What happens to all that new fangled Java crap in Blu-Ray movies then??
Reply
Reply
post #143 of 172
4/15/09 at 7:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by MikeSM View Post

The slysoft people don't seem to be bothered by these rules. I do think that legally, bitstreaming for them is much better than trying to decode the dolby formats. I think the ATI hardware is physically capable of bitstreaming (this has been mentioned on the slyplayer thread), so if they build in the proper support, that will be a great solution.

I agree with you, I was just stating the current legal requirements.
Reply
Reply
post #144 of 172
4/15/09 at 7:46pm
Personally, I would never use a player which does not support menus. This is also why I do not play mkvs.
Reply
Reply
post #145 of 172
4/15/09 at 7:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy o View Post

For me WinDVD was always a bloated mess and never really worked when I tried it for DVD years ago, and at the time I was OK with PowerDVD. So I never had the incentive to try any WinDVD for bluray either. But then the reports of other people started coming out, they said that pretty much nothing had changed. That's why you almost never see mentioned WinDVD when people mention bluray players. I don't know if that has changed significantly with updates or what.

In any case, I am not willing to pay yet again for another player for a half-assed implementation. I wonder how it works with 7.1 and HDMI audio?

Seeing that WinDVD9 was released May 2008, you may be hearing reviews of earlier products. Furthermore, the Bluray version (not oem or regular) gives you pretty much all of the controls in FFDShow as well. It is a really good program in my experience. I used WinDVD 7 and thought it was "ok", but wasn't impressed. I think one of the problems is that the trial version does not include the advanced SD DVD features that the bluray version does. It is pretty nice though you need to play straight from disk or mount the ISO to access those advanced features. All in all pretty nice.

I had a good experience with the trial of TMT as well. I would have bought it if it was W7 64 bit compatible. I have never like PowerDVD, but that is just a preference.
Reply
Reply
post #146 of 172
4/15/09 at 8:03pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DJ79 View Post

- access the web (nobody uses it anyway)

Agreed. I was a red supporter before turning purple. I never used that feature at all with my HD DVDs. I wouldn't use it with Bluray. All those spec changes for something that I think only a small minority will actually use. I also question how long those online extras will actually stay active for releases. Will a BD online function work for a 2008 released disk in 2013, 2017?
Reply
Reply
post #147 of 172
4/16/09 at 3:26am
Quote:
Originally Posted by bjmarchini View Post

Seeing that WinDVD9 was released May 2008, you may be hearing reviews of earlier products. Furthermore, the Bluray version (not oem or regular) gives you pretty much all of the controls in FFDShow as well. It is a really good program in my experience. I used WinDVD 7 and thought it was "ok", but wasn't impressed. I think one of the problems is that the trial version does not include the advanced SD DVD features that the bluray version does. It is pretty nice though you need to play straight from disk or mount the ISO to access those advanced features. All in all pretty nice.

I had a good experience with the trial of TMT as well. I would have bought it if it was W7 64 bit compatible. I have never like PowerDVD, but that is just a preference.

Maybe I'll try it, though I really can't see myself spending more money on this kind of thing. Maybe I'll return TMT3 as well, albeit it working barely acceptably I guess. I got it because I was gonna use the Xonar HDAV, but I've returned that.

But yeah, of course the WinDVD versions I tried were older ones. I have been using PowerDVD probably since the 2.55 days. I tried several versions of WinDVD as well, since in those days those two were pretty much all you could use, but WinDVD never played along with any of my systems, so I just lost interest on anything Intervideo put out. Same thing that's finally happened to me with Cyberlink after PowerDVD 8 and 9.
Reply
Reply
post #148 of 172
4/16/09 at 3:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by zryder View Post

and you also have to remember, this is EXACTLY what happens on a PS3, and there aren't a whole ton of people complaining all that loudly with that..

funnily enough I was in this scenario yesterday comparing LPCM out to Bitstreaming though a Asus AVHD1.3 and there is a difference. Personally I think its the reciever as thats decoding the stream ( it think ) whereas it will probably pass through a LPCM ..dont shoot me though I'm not an expert by any stretch

but your right ..there aint a lot in it
Reply
Reply
post #149 of 172
4/16/09 at 7:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by cybrsage View Post

Personally, I would never use a player which does not support menus. This is also why I do not play mkvs.

I remember reading that they will support menus for BluRays but not for HD-DVD (supporting only the playback of EVOs files). Maybe I'm mistaken, though.

Hmmm... looked back at the thread, maybe you are right and it won't support the "real" menus... Not something I'm gonna miss, to be honest. But I understand the desire.
Reply
Reply
post #150 of 172
4/16/09 at 7:59am
SP should be the perfect companion to TMT 3 and WinDVD 9
Reply
Reply
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Home Theater Computers

AVS Top Picks

AVS › AVS Forum › Video Components › Home Theater Computers › Slysoft's Slyplayer