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Official Samsung LNxxB550 Discussion Thread - Page 8

post #211 of 860
Some of you may find this useful:

http://rapidshare.com/files/24848013...x_57x_67x_.rar

This is the service manual for the "LE" version (Europe) but should, for the most part, be applicable to other parts of the world as well. (Note, I think the North American version has a different code to enter the service menu)

The following models are included:
LE32B55*
LE37B55*
LE40B55*
LE46B55*
LE32B65*
LE37B65*
LE40B65*
LE46B65*
LE55B65*
LE32B57*
LE37B57*
LE40B57*
LE46B57*
LE32B67*
LE37B67*
LE40B67*
LE46B67*
LE55B67*
LE40B62*
LE46B62*
LE52B62*
LE40B75*
LE46B75*
LE52B75*
post #212 of 860
Manual Paradise was really cool and allowed me to download the correct manual.
In the service manual specs the contrast range is defined as 5000:1. A far cry from the 70000:1 range touted in the sales material. The panel type is is "TFT LCD Panel 60Hz"

B550 vs B540 : According to the service manual : "B540 models are same B550 models except front cabinet design and remote control"

The maximum pixel clockrate on the 52" sets is 155mhz. All of the other B-series sets are 82 mhz. I'm confused by this spec, since a 1080p 60hz image requires a clock rate of about 148mhz. Can anyone comment on this ?
post #213 of 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanU View Post

Manual Paradise was really cool and allowed me to download the correct manual.
In the service manual specs the contrast range is defined as 5000:1. A far cry from the 70000:1 range touted in the sales material. The panel type is is "TFT LCD Panel 60Hz"

The 70000:1 is the Dynamic contrast ratio, 5000:1 is the *actual*.
post #214 of 860
Before adjusting my son's new LN40B550, I took a set of measurements on the factory default behavior, in Movie mode with color set to Warm2. Attached you will find the diagrams from HCFR. These were taken using a PS3 as the source, using the AVSHD calibration disk, measured against the Rec709 color points.

Although the primary green is left of where Rec709 says it should be, the other colors are relatively near their targets. The problem arises with white, which is significantly left of D65. You see the same information in the temperature graph; unlike the A550/A650 where Warm2 gave a white temperature around 6500, with the B550 Warm2 exhibits temperatures between 7000 and 7500. The RGB chart confirms the problem that there is too little red, across the board, in white.

The measured gamma from a PS3 source, using YCbCr over HDMI, was flat, but low, between 2.0 and 2.1, with the factory default Gamma setting of 0. Perhaps this is appropriate in a bright room, but in a typical home movie viewing environment this should yield an image that appears too flat, without a feeling of depth from the shadows.
LL
LL
LL
LL
post #215 of 860
As the default factory behavior showed a white balance that was too blue, I tried using the User Menu white balance controls to fix this. To get the white balance to D65, I had to add a lot of red to the gains. Attached are the HCFR graphs. The RGB graph now shows relatively low errors, dE CIE76 less than 2 and the temperature chart shows behavior centered around 6500. I adjusted the gamma to give more reasonable values, between 2.2 and 2.3, for a dim movie viewing environment.

The problem that is introduced is with the secondary colors. As can be seen from the CIE diagram, adding red to the white balance also greatly pulled the yellow and magenta secondaries toward red. (Although dim in the image, the x marks show the points from the factory settings above, where the colored yellow/magenta points show how far they have been moved.)

To get these measures, I set the following options:
Mode: Movie
Backlight 4
Contrast 88
Brightness 47
Sharpness 10
Color 48
Tint 50/50

Black tone: Off
Dynamic Contrast: Off
Gamma -1
Color space: Auto
Flesh tone: off
Edge enhancement: off

Color tone: Warm2

White balance:
RGB Offsets: 27/25/27
RGB Gains: 49/25/20

It appears the best approach for calibration using the User Menu is to compromise between the white error and the color error, to accept a white that is somewhat more blue, in order not to pull the yellow/magenta secondaries so far from their target. This would be a little tricky to do using HCFR, as one cannot configure it to an arbirtrary white point, but I'm sure a spreadsheet could be developed to measure the RGB error around the average white point, while separately comparing the average white point to the D65 target to achieve about the same delta E value as the yellow/magenta errors. Another possibility might be to try to use the flesh tone adjust to compensate for too much red in the secondaries. I've not tried either of these two suggestions, as I decided to look at the Service Menu options instead.
LL
LL
LL
LL

 

PS3_090622.chc.zip 5.84375k . file
post #216 of 860
Following SeanU's suggestion on how to access the Advanced menu, I went into the Service Menu, navigated to the Advanced selection and entered the magic "0000" key. Attached is a .zip file of photos from the Advanced menu and its submenus.

The interesting submenus are WB Movie and Color Space. In WB Movie, after changing mode to On, one has the choice for the current color mode/tone, i.e., Movie/Warm2, to change the red/blue gains/offsets for white balance, and the basic control settings of Contrast, Brightness, Color, Sharpness, Tint, Backlight and Gamma. (There is a second photo of the WB Movie submenu, after I set it on, that shows the Warm2 choices enabled and the Warm1 and Normal choices grayed out. I'm sure, had I wanted to, I could have changed those white balance values, too.) In the Color Space submenu, there are Saturation and Hue controls for each of the six primary/secondary colors, and an FWC Blue/Red setting that I did not touch.

This means that, unlike the color controls on the A550 where there were three sliders for each color, with the B550 there are only two controls for each. The Sat controls generally let you change the Y values for each color. I was not able to do much to move the primary points, see below, but the Hue controls do successfully move the secondary points along the edges of the CIE triangle.

 

AdvancedMenu.zip 468.9755859375k . file
post #217 of 860
As I really wanted to fix the white balance to D65, and still keep the best colors possible, I decided to try to achieve this through the Service Menu.

One should be very careful, of course, about entering the Service Menu. This can void your warranty and cause you to pay for any resulting service calls. The choice of navigation buttons on the remote control is not obvious, there are some menu choices that immediately invoke an action without further confirmation in the submenu, and there are no cancel buttons. I only went down this path after reading zerog6's contributions on service menu calibration in the A750 thread.

Before using the key sequence to enter the service menu, (Off, Menu, 1, 8, 2, On), or the sequence 0000 to unlock the Advanced submenu in the SM, you need to know that the left/right buttons on the remote choose new values, enter the corresponding submenu or initiate the action. Use only the up/down buttons to navigate in the menus; use Return to back your way out. Be very wary of any choice that says "Calibration", especially ADC Calibration. This can cause the set to reprogram its internal values using the presumed incoming test pattern, and is at best an awkward problem to solve. Also, be aware that entering the service menu causes the set to undo any user menu calibration you have set, even if you change nothing. So be sure you have written down any values you have set. And be sure to write down or photograph any service menu screens before you change them, so you can put them back.

My goal was to try to get the best calibration for movie viewing, as close as possible to what is achievable on the A550/A650 sets. On a first pass, I was able to get much closer, but it's not yet the best possible. In particular, I have not yet found any way to move the green primary closer to the Rec709 point.

Given what I had learned with the User Menu calibration, I decided that the right process was to follow three steps:
(1) Set the basic backlight/contrast/brightness/color controls.
(2) Adjust the white balance controls.
(3) Adjust the color points for best xyY values. This fixes the secondaries for any effects of changes in the white balance.
Iterate as necessary between (2) and (3), until it is as good as possible or exhaustion sets in.

(1) Having already calibrated once using the User Menu, I set the basic controls to the same values.

Based on my experience with the User Menu, I opted to set the Color level for an average error in the Y values of the colors. In particular, I set it a little low, as the Red Y was too high, even though set the initial Y value of green and blue a little low. As you will see below in (3), this technique which works on the A550/A650 was a mistake here, as the factory values for B550 color controls are set near their highest Y value. There is not much room to push the Y values higher. So it would be better to err a little higher on the Color setting, then use the color controls to reduce the Y values.

There is a wider choice in Gamma selections in the Service Menu, with the MGamma option. I looked at this, but returned it to Off, so I have not measured the effects of other choices, e.g., M4, M3, etc.

(2) The white balance controls in the Service Menu have different ranges than the User Menu. More importantly, there are only two colors here, red and blue. As green is the largest component and determines most of the overall white level, it seems to be controlled by the gamma setting. Here you can adjust only the red and blue to achieve the best balance relative to green. This is fine, as it matches some of the professional guidance available on this site, to leave the green alone. As is typical, it took three iterations to get a reasonably even grayscale before going on to the color controls.

(3) As I mentioned above, I tried using the primary hue controls to move the green and red color points. I did not measure any significant changes in the green primary. On the red primary, I was trying to tweak it a little closer to blue. After doing a full color calibration, I measured the intermediate saturation points and found that there was now a big curve toward magenta in the red line from 0 to 100% saturation. Apparently hue had a larger effect on the intermediate saturation points than the endpoint. So I put it back near its initial setting and remeasured to verify that the red points were back to nearly colinear.

The Sat controls on the primary colors adjusts primarily the Y values for each color. Given that the RGB primaries are close but not on the Rec709 targets, I used a spreadsheet I published in another thread to calculate the optimal Y values to minimize the error for a given set of primaries.

For the secondaries, it was reasonably straightforward to use Hue to move these close to the Rec709 points, then use Sat to adjust the Y values. The only confusion is that the Hue controls are not a simple scale. 0x3F can yield a point far away from 0x40. I've not yet decided if they are doing signed arithmetic or sign-and-magnitude arithmetic mod 128, but using the continuous measure feature of HCFR it is easy to play near the limits of the values and do a binary search to approach the best point.

In hindsight, I wish I had set the Color control higher, as in some cases I maxed out the Sat control for a color trying to raise its Y value, without quite reaching the target.

As you can see from the attached CIE diagram, the secondaries are close, while now maintaining a D65 white. The RGBYCM dE values using CIE2000 are now 1.56, 2.60, 1.46, 1.79, 2.13, 0.47, so they are not terrible but not perfect. The grayscale, though, is the best I have ever achieved. PS3 grayscale curves are generally very flat, but the Service Menu grayscale controls do seem to give a finer control on the white balance than the User Menu controls. The end result is not quite as accurate as I might have obtained on an A550, but with another pass I'm sure I could reduce the errors on the secondary colors. The final colors look very accurate, and the B550 certainly gives a deeper black level, and better overall contrast than the A550.

After calibrating for the PS3 on the HDMI4 port, I thought I would need to copy these values to the other sources, in particular the COMP1 port for the cable box. When I changed sources in the Service Menu, the new values were already present. I did not have to enter them again. So it appears that the color calibration is global for the entire set, i.e., there is only one. And the white balance for each color tone in the service menu is also global.

Possible areas for future research, for the next person to go down this path:
(1) What is the real effect of Hue on the primaries? Is there some way to move Green, in particular?
(2) I did not measure the differences on the B550 between Auto and Native colors. I set Auto before I entered the Service Menu, and I assumed that my Service Menu measures match what I would have seen had I re-measured outside the Service Menu when I was done.
(3) As the color changes seem to be global, what is the impact on game (Standard/Normal or Dynamic/Cool) of changing the Movie Warm2 colors? Does enabling movie mode processing the service menu affect lag during games?
(4) What is the meaning of the other Gamma choices in the service menu? Do they change the overall shape of the gamma curve?

For reference, these were the control settings I entered in the Advanced Service Menu, with the original value in parentheses. One should assume that each set is different, and I know that different source devices are different, so one cannot predict that these same values would be appropriate for anyone else.

WB Movie:
Mode: Movie
Tone: Warm2
Movie Contrast 88 (95)
Movie Brightness 47 (45)
Movie Color 48 (50)
Movie Sharp 10 (20)
Movie Tint 50 (50)
Movie BkLight 4 (5)
MSubGamma -1 (0)

Warm2:
Red Gain 157 (134)
Blue Gain 48 (52)
Red Offset 131 (129)
Blue Offset 138 (139)

Color Space:
Red Sat 0x13 (0x17)
Red Hue 0x00 (0x40)
Green Sat 0x1E (0x1C)
Green Hue 0x40 (0x40)
Blue Sat 0x1B (0x18)
Blue Hue 0x42 (0x40)
Cyan Sat 0x1E (0x18)
Cyan Hue 0x08 (0x0f)
Magenta Sat 0x15 (0x16)
Magenta Hue 0x10 (0x40)
Yellow Sat 0x1E (0x13)
Yellow Hue 0x50 (0x40)
LL
LL
LL
LL

 

PS3_090625.chc.zip 11.3271484375k . file
post #218 of 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mitchell View Post

For reference, these were the control settings I entered in the Advanced Service Menu, with the original value in parentheses. One should assume that each set is different, and I know that different source devices are different, so one cannot predict that these same values would be appropriate for anyone else.

Bill,

Thanks for the great post. Just by my eye, I can tell you I see the same problems on the 52". The whites are too blue even when the set is set to warm, and you push the reds up. I appreciate the full list of changed parameters... it will help alot when I dive in. I just picked up a cheap insignia blu-ray player, and I can't wait to see what the end result will be once I get the calibration done.

Just curious as to what device you used to calibrate? I'm concerned that my spyder2 may not be up to the task.

Sean
post #219 of 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanU View Post

Bill,

Thanks for the great post. Just by my eye, I can tell you I see the same problems on the 52". The whites are too blue even when the set is set to warm, and you push the reds up. I appreciate the full list of changed parameters... it will help alot when I dive in. I just picked up a cheap insignia blu-ray player, and I can't wait to see what the end result will be once I get the calibration done.

Just curious as to what device you used to calibrate? I'm concerned that my spyder2 may not be up to the task.

Sean

I used an EyeOne Display LT. I first bought a Spyder 3, then found it was not yet supported by HCFR so I got the EyeOne just days before the new HCFR release that includes the Spyder 3.

In my case, the Spyder 3 reads everything twisted. I posted a comparison of my two devices here. It seems from my reading that the Spyder devices have more manufacturing variation, so you may have a good one, and perhaps the Spyder2 is more consistent than the Spyder3. At least on my set, the built-in primaries are very close to the PAL/SECAM color points. So if yours looks twisted relative to that, I would suspect the instrument more than the set.

I understand your concern. I've seen the advice from some professionals that they would not calibrate a CMS with a low-end instrument; they would use at least an EyeOne Pro. That's not within my budget. As well, they are probably thinking about a wide range of devices, e.g., front/rear projectors, that have lower light levels than LCDs and plasmas. So far, my results have tracked generally with other owners of the A650. Do keep in mind that the color accuracy drops off at low light levels, so don't worry too much about the measured color balance/dE values below 30%. Just look at the gamma shape for overall luminance and use the Pluge pattern to verify that any real color shift at the low end is not visible.

I calibrated my A650 to multiple DVD players, and observed large differences in the gamma behavior among them. In particular, for my Panasonic BD-35, the gamma curve was too low and I had to set a value of -2 to push it up above 2.2, whereas my Pioneer player showed an extremely high gamma and I had to set the option to +3 to push it down. So don't be surprised if you see different gamma results from your player than I posted above for the PS3.

And thank you, Sean, for the key to opening the Advanced menu. I was really irritated at not being able to do any color adjustment on the B550 until I had that.

Good luck,
Bill
post #220 of 860
This is not a reply to a post - but I'm needing an assist. There is notable banding, 6 - 8 inches in width, top-to-bottom on the 46" screen. This occurs at the far left side and far right side of the display. The result is that a dark scene is one shade of dark in the center of the screen and another, lighter shade of dark at the outer edges. The techs that Samsung have sent out to troubleshoot this have not been able to fix it and generally sum up the problem by attempting to dismiss it. At this point Samsung will not spend any more time/money on this issue. I bought this set online & returning it for the above reason is not an option, soooo, without going into the advanced service menu, is there a fix to get consistent black from edge to edge? Also, relative to a Toshiba 46" xv645 I just bought, the Samsung image is rather soft and I haven't found a way to adjust the image to make it more 'crisp'. Any recommendations for either of these problems? Thanks -
post #221 of 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by toaster50 View Post

This is not a reply to a post - but I'm needing an assist. There is notable banding, 6 - 8 inches in width, top-to-bottom on the 46" screen. This occurs at the far left side and far right side of the display. The result is that a dark scene is one shade of dark in the center of the screen and another, lighter shade of dark at the outer edges. The techs that Samsung have sent out to troubleshoot this have not been able to fix it and generally sum up the problem by attempting to dismiss it. At this point Samsung will not spend any more time/money on this issue. I bought this set online & returning it for the above reason is not an option, soooo, without going into the advanced service menu, is there a fix to get consistent black from edge to edge? Also, relative to a Toshiba 46" xv645 I just bought, the Samsung image is rather soft and I haven't found a way to adjust the image to make it more 'crisp'. Any recommendations for either of these problems? Thanks -

I have a symptom similar to what you describe with a 3 year old Samsung LCD. I noticed earlier this year that I had a dark line, just on one side in my case, at just about the exact point where a 4:3 image stops and the vertical pillar bars appear. The most likely hypothesis, for me, is that I left the set showing 4:3 images much too long, and ended up burning a vertical line right where the image stopped. So on my new A650, despite my preference for movie fidelity, when watching 4:3 shows over cable I've been very careful to stretch the image to fill the screen width. Sometimes, to keep the right ratios, we zoom the image and throw away the top and the bottom. But I don't want to create the same problem on the new set. Naturally, the 3-year old set is past its warranty, so I will just live with the problem. Replacing the screen is not worth the expense.

I would think your set is new enough, young enough, that its problem should not be caused by over exposure to 4:3 images. But you might check if the edges of the bands match up with the vertical pillars of standard definition TV. If so, you could at least discuss with Samsung whether this is really a warranty failure and not abuse in a set this new.
post #222 of 860
Hey guys,

Newbie here but I just picked up the ln40b550 on an offer i couldn't pass up. Was debating between this and the Sony 40v4100 but once i got them down to the same price i jumped on the Sammy since my friend has the A550 and absolutely loves it.

I'm not getting any of these ghosting or blurring issues that people here are having but the picture both via time warner hd cable and my xbox 360 look too dark when playing certain games (RE5, COD4) or watching certain movies (Dark Knight). Does anyone have any good calibration settings that might help me out here?
post #223 of 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by DamnYankee View Post

Hey guys,

Newbie here but I just picked up the ln40b550 on an offer i couldn't pass up. Was debating between this and the Sony 40v4100 but once i got them down to the same price i jumped on the Sammy since my friend has the A550 and absolutely loves it.

I'm not getting any of these ghosting or blurring issues that people here are having but the picture both via time warner hd cable and my xbox 360 look too dark when playing certain games (RE5, COD4) or watching certain movies (Dark Knight). Does anyone have any good calibration settings that might help me out here?

You can try the settings Bill Mitchell just posted above you. He obtained these settings using calibration instruments, and also included post calibrated graphs.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mitchell View Post

As I really wanted to fix the white balance to D65, and still keep the best colors possible, I decided to try to achieve this through the Service Menu.

One should be very careful, of course, about entering the Service Menu. This can void your warranty and cause you to pay for any resulting service calls. The choice of navigation buttons on the remote control is not obvious, there are some menu choices that immediately invoke an action without further confirmation in the submenu, and there are no cancel buttons. I only went down this path after reading zerog6's contributions on service menu calibration in the A750 thread.

Before using the key sequence to enter the service menu, (Off, Menu, 1, 8, 2, On), or the sequence 0000 to unlock the Advanced submenu in the SM, you need to know that the left/right buttons on the remote choose new values, enter the corresponding submenu or initiate the action. Use only the up/down buttons to navigate in the menus; use Return to back your way out. Be very wary of any choice that says "Calibration", especially ADC Calibration. This can cause the set to reprogram its internal values using the presumed incoming test pattern, and is at best an awkward problem to solve. Also, be aware that entering the service menu causes the set to undo any user menu calibration you have set, even if you change nothing. So be sure you have written down any values you have set. And be sure to write down or photograph any service menu screens before you change them, so you can put them back.

My goal was to try to get the best calibration for movie viewing, as close as possible to what is achievable on the A550/A650 sets. On a first pass, I was able to get much closer, but it's not yet the best possible. In particular, I have not yet found any way to move the green primary closer to the Rec709 point.

Given what I had learned with the User Menu calibration, I decided that the right process was to follow three steps:
(1) Set the basic backlight/contrast/brightness/color controls.
(2) Adjust the white balance controls.
(3) Adjust the color points for best xyY values. This fixes the secondaries for any effects of changes in the white balance.
Iterate as necessary between (2) and (3), until it is as good as possible or exhaustion sets in.

(1) Having already calibrated once using the User Menu, I set the basic controls to the same values.

Based on my experience with the User Menu, I opted to set the Color level for an average error in the Y values of the colors. In particular, I set it a little low, as the Red Y was too high, even though set the initial Y value of green and blue a little low. As you will see below in (3), this technique which works on the A550/A650 was a mistake here, as the factory values for B550 color controls are set near their highest Y value. There is not much room to push the Y values higher. So it would be better to err a little higher on the Color setting, then use the color controls to reduce the Y values.

There is a wider choice in Gamma selections in the Service Menu, with the MGamma option. I looked at this, but returned it to Off, so I have not measured the effects of other choices, e.g., M4, M3, etc.

(2) The white balance controls in the Service Menu have different ranges than the User Menu. More importantly, there are only two colors here, red and blue. As green is the largest component and determines most of the overall white level, it seems to be controlled by the gamma setting. Here you can adjust only the red and blue to achieve the best balance relative to green. This is fine, as it matches some of the professional guidance available on this site, to leave the green alone. As is typical, it took three iterations to get a reasonably even grayscale before going on to the color controls.

(3) As I mentioned above, I tried using the primary hue controls to move the green and red color points. I did not measure any significant changes in the green primary. On the red primary, I was trying to tweak it a little closer to blue. After doing a full color calibration, I measured the intermediate saturation points and found that there was now a big curve toward magenta in the red line from 0 to 100% saturation. Apparently hue had a larger effect on the intermediate saturation points than the endpoint. So I put it back near its initial setting and remeasured to verify that the red points were back to nearly colinear.

The Sat controls on the primary colors adjusts primarily the Y values for each color. Given that the RGB primaries are close but not on the Rec709 targets, I used a spreadsheet I published in another thread to calculate the optimal Y values to minimize the error for a given set of primaries.

For the secondaries, it was reasonably straightforward to use Hue to move these close to the Rec709 points, then use Sat to adjust the Y values. The only confusion is that the Hue controls are not a simple scale. 0x3F can yield a point far away from 0x40. I've not yet decided if they are doing signed arithmetic or sign-and-magnitude arithmetic mod 128, but using the continuous measure feature of HCFR it is easy to play near the limits of the values and do a binary search to approach the best point.

In hindsight, I wish I had set the Color control higher, as in some cases I maxed out the Sat control for a color trying to raise its Y value, without quite reaching the target.

As you can see from the attached CIE diagram, the secondaries are close, while now maintaining a D65 white. The RGBYCM dE values using CIE2000 are now 1.56, 2.60, 1.46, 1.79, 2.13, 0.47, so they are not terrible but not perfect. The grayscale, though, is the best I have ever achieved. PS3 grayscale curves are generally very flat, but the Service Menu grayscale controls do seem to give a finer control on the white balance than the User Menu controls. The end result is not quite as accurate as I might have obtained on an A550, but with another pass I'm sure I could reduce the errors on the secondary colors. The final colors look very accurate, and the B550 certainly gives a deeper black level, and better overall contrast than the A550.

After calibrating for the PS3 on the HDMI4 port, I thought I would need to copy these values to the other sources, in particular the COMP1 port for the cable box. When I changed sources in the Service Menu, the new values were already present. I did not have to enter them again. So it appears that the color calibration is global for the entire set, i.e., there is only one. And the white balance for each color tone in the service menu is also global.

Possible areas for future research, for the next person to go down this path:
(1) What is the real effect of Hue on the primaries? Is there some way to move Green, in particular?
(2) I did not measure the differences on the B550 between Auto and Native colors. I set Auto before I entered the Service Menu, and I assumed that my Service Menu measures match what I would have seen had I re-measured outside the Service Menu when I was done.
(3) As the color changes seem to be global, what is the impact on game (Standard/Normal or Dynamic/Cool) of changing the Movie Warm2 colors? Does enabling movie mode processing the service menu affect lag during games?
(4) What is the meaning of the other Gamma choices in the service menu? Do they change the overall shape of the gamma curve?

For reference, these were the control settings I entered in the Advanced Service Menu, with the original value in parentheses. One should assume that each set is different, and I know that different source devices are different, so one cannot predict that these same values would be appropriate for anyone else.

WB Movie:
Mode: Movie
Tone: Warm2
Movie Contrast 88 (95)
Movie Brightness 47 (45)
Movie Color 48 (50)
Movie Sharp 10 (20)
Movie Tint 50 (50)
Movie BkLight 4 (5)
MSubGamma -1 (0)

Warm2:
Red Gain 157 (134)
Blue Gain 48 (52)
Red Offset 131 (129)
Blue Offset 138 (139)

Color Space:
Red Sat 0x13 (0x17)
Red Hue 0x00 (0x40)
Green Sat 0x1E (0x1C)
Green Hue 0x40 (0x40)
Blue Sat 0x1B (0x18)
Blue Hue 0x42 (0x40)
Cyan Sat 0x1E (0x18)
Cyan Hue 0x08 (0x0f)
Magenta Sat 0x15 (0x16)
Magenta Hue 0x10 (0x40)
Yellow Sat 0x1E (0x13)
Yellow Hue 0x50 (0x40)

Try these but be very very careful while you are wandering around in the service menu, you can mess up your TV that way.
post #224 of 860
Bill,

I began my calibration with a few settings different from yours. Colorspace:Native, Gamma + 2, and Color:55

I started off my calibration by doing a user menu only, DVE dvd based walkthrough. This got the brightness and contrast and brightness set correctly, but I think it may have gone too far with the tint. It is now set to G33/R67.

After that was done, i hooked up the Spyder2 and HFCR. I started with Grayscale tracking at 80% and 20%, then the mid tones.

I've done a pretty good job of getting the grayscale tracking flat using just the gain and offset in the user menu. I did touch the green controls, which after reading your post again may have been a mistake.

Next I went to look at the RGB primaries. The CIEGraph looks pretty good, with green being shifted to the left of reference. However, my delta-E's are way to high... R:64.9 G:53.8 B:44.8 .

That seems way to high to start with. Would you reccomend I start again, or should I just try to reign in the delta-e's? I have to say, even at this point the picture is greatly improved.

Thanks - Sean
post #225 of 860
There doesn't seem to be much of a difference between these 2 models spec wise. 10,000 more contrast ratio on the B550, not much else on paper I can see. Anyone care to comment?
post #226 of 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanU View Post

Bill,

I began my calibration with a few settings different from yours. Colorspace:Native, Gamma + 2, and Color:55

I started off my calibration by doing a user menu only, DVE dvd based walkthrough. This got the brightness and contrast and brightness set correctly, but I think it may have gone too far with the tint. It is now set to G33/R67.

After that was done, i hooked up the Spyder2 and HFCR. I started with Grayscale tracking at 80% and 20%, then the mid tones.

I've done a pretty good job of getting the grayscale tracking flat using just the gain and offset in the user menu. I did touch the green controls, which after reading your post again may have been a mistake.

Next I went to look at the RGB primaries. The CIEGraph looks pretty good, with green being shifted to the left of reference. However, my delta-E's are way to high... R:64.9 G:53.8 B:44.8 .

That seems way to high to start with. Would you reccomend I start again, or should I just try to reign in the delta-e's? I have to say, even at this point the picture is greatly improved.

Thanks - Sean

If you embed your .chc file in a .zip file and attach it to your note, I will take a look at it.

Usually the mistake everyone makes when they first get started is that they see the color position in the CIE chart and focus on that, without looking at the third dimension, the luminance (Y) component that is as important in matching the colors. This would be one explanation for the delta E values being very large while the color points look correct on the chart. HCFR gives a hint for this at the bottom of its grid, where it shows a delta xy line, how much of the error is in the xy plane, and a delta luma, what percentage of the error is in the Y values. You may need to click the "Editable data" box at the top and then click on the down error to the right of the box to be able to see the bottom delta luma line on the grid. (It was a couple of weeks before I found this line, as it was being cut off on my computer's display.)

HCFR evaluates its delta luma percentage by comparing to the ratios in Rec709. (These are the same Y ratio values you see in the tables in Tom Huffman's guide to calibrating a CMS.) I learned a few weeks ago, in a long and fascinating discussion with Greg Rogers of Accupel, the correct way to calculate the optimal Y values when the primary xy points cannot be reached, which led to the spreadsheet I recommended above. But starting from scratch, as you are, the HCFR delta luma percentages are a good start and should get you in the ballpark.

When comparing and interpreting delta E values, one also must look at what measure was used to do the calculation. HCFR uses the older CIE76 formula, which treats errors around red, green, and blue as equally important. I believe that the Calman software uses CIE94 as its default, feeling that the later updates reflect better science in how people perceive error in the various regions of the color gamut. The spreadsheet I pointed to above also includes a choice of CIE2000, which is newer and not yet much used in the calibration domain. Personally, I think that CIE94 or CIE2000 give better results. CIE76 wants a much larger Y value at red to achieve minimum error. The reason it is important to keep in mind which measure is used, is that the reference points change. With CIE76, a minimum perceptible difference is considered to be 2.0 or 2.5, while "maximum acceptable" is considered to be 5.0. With CIE94, the minimum perceptible difference is 1.0, and "maximum acceptable" is 1.5. (I put quotes around "maximum acceptable", as the limit is really what can be achieved on the set.)

To illustrate the difference, HCFR reported CIE76 color errors on my son's set of: 5.1 9.9 6.6 5.4 9.5 2.1. The same errors, calculated using CIE2000 were: 1.56 2.60 1.46 1.79 2.13 0.47. Each shows similar information, that the largest remaining error is around green, and that the only color that is indistinguishable from its Rec709 point is magenta. The biggest difference in interpretation is that CIE2000 says that the measured blue is perceptible but acceptable, and CIE76 indicates the blue error is beyond "acceptable" and larger than the error at red.
post #227 of 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by skoretsk View Post

There doesn't seem to be much of a difference between these 2 models spec wise. 10,000 more contrast ratio on the B550, not much else on paper I can see. Anyone care to comment?

Internally the sets are exactly the same. According to the service manual, only differences are the case and the remote. The gloss level of the screen may account for the contrast spec.
post #228 of 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mitchell View Post
If you embed your .chc file in a .zip file and attach it to your note, I will take a look at it.
Bill,

I've attached my .chc file. I did much better the second time around. If you have time, take a look and let me know what you think. At this point, the grayscale looks pretty good and the Delta-E's are much better than the first try. Let me know if you have any tips. At this point, i'm pretty happy with the results... unless you see any major problems, I'll probably stop here.

Thanks - Sean

 

sean_pass_1.zip 5.283203125k . file
post #229 of 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanU View Post

Bill,

I've attached my .chc file. I did much better the second time around. If you have time, take a look and let me know what you think. At this point, the grayscale looks pretty good and the Delta-E's are much better than the first try. Let me know if you have any tips. At this point, i'm pretty happy with the results... unless you see any major problems, I'll probably stop here.

Thanks - Sean

There is something very strange about the measurements. In the grayscale measures, the 100% white Y value is 170.75, but in the primary/secondary color grid, the white Y measure is 242.156. I've seen it lower, about 50% lower, when the color measurements are taken using 75% stimulus windows, but 40% greater is pretty strange. Did you take the color measurements, then adjust the Contrast before going back to the grayscale measures? Or perhaps Dynamic Contrast or Energy Saving is enabled, and the color measures were taken using windowed patterns while the grayscale was taken using full screen patterns?

The grayscale is very flat, and that is good. I would have expected a higher overall contrast than 714:1; on my son's set I measured more than 2000:1. Either you have Dynamic Contrast or Energy Saving enabled, or the Backlight/Brightness are high for a dim environment and you are calibrated for a brighter daytime environment.

Although the grayscale is reasonably flat, what error there is creeps in at the high end, where you have a little too much blue, and the RGB errors exceed 2. You might want to try a little less blue in the Gains, and add it back in with the offset to keep it flat. The problem with the error on the high side is that color shift is more visible in bright white than in dim; you should be seeing a little blue color shift in the continuous Pluge pattern when you look at it. On the AVSHD disk, this is at the front of the Misc pattern section.

Like the grayscale curve, the gamma curve is reasonably flat. On the other hand, unless you are in a very bright environment, I suspect that an average gamma of 1.9 is giving you a relatively flat picture, without much depth in the shadows. Unless this is the effect of dynamic contrast raising the luminance at the low end and making the gamma look lower than it is. Although some people target 2.2 as the correct gamma, Chris Wiggles started a very interesting thread discussing why a higher value is better. Tom Huffman's current recommendation on this is to keep the gamma between 2.2 and 2.35, leaning toward the high end of the range except in a bright room. But it is a fascinating subject, and you can spend a lot of time reading about it.

If you are calibrating with Dynamic Contrast or Energy Saving on, and this is what you want to do, the best patterns to use on the AVSHD disk are the APL patterns. These keep a border with all the choices present, and change only the image in the middle of the screen, thus keeping the average picture level (APL) reasonably constant to keep dyanmic contrast from impacting the measurements. Personally, I turn them both off, and accomplish the same effect as Energy Saving by reducing the Contrast down to get a light level in the range of 45 ftL.

You're right that the color measures look pretty good. I plugged your measures into a spreadsheet and it verified what I saw visibly, that the magenta and yellow hue are just a little off, and these can be made more accurate with just a tweak toward red in each. The Y values are close as well. The spreadsheet using CIE94 shows the same thing that HCFR shows using CIE76, that the green, blue, and magenta Y values are just a little low. You can see this in the delta luma line at the bottom of the color grid in HCFR. Still, the overall improvement from tweaking these will be relatively small; I would only worry about them in so far as the yellow/magenta secondaries impact skin color.

I overlayed your CIE chart with the one I measured on my son's set and the primaries agree, within the range of what I think of as normal measurement variation. So that means that your Spyder2 is tracking well with my EyeOne, given that they are measuring different sets.

Compared to your comments in your first note, I can tell you are making lots of progress.

Have fun,
Bill
post #230 of 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mitchell View Post

There is something very strange about the measurements. In the grayscale measures, the 100% white Y value is 170.75, but in the primary/secondary color grid, the white Y measure is 242.156. I've seen it lower, about 50% lower, when the color measurements are taken using 75% stimulus windows, but 40% greater is pretty strange. Did you take the color measurements, then adjust the Contrast before going back to the grayscale measures? Or perhaps Dynamic Contrast or Energy Saving is enabled, and the color measures were taken using windowed patterns while the grayscale was taken using full screen patterns?
.
.
Compared to your comments in your first note, I can tell you are making lots of progress.

Have fun,
Bill

Thanks for looking bill. All of the dynamic settings are turned off. I did have the gamma set to "2" in the user settings. I'm going to re-visit the gamma/brightness and contrast to see if I can get them closer to your results. This is my first "full fledged" calibration, so I'm learning as I go. I appreciate your feedback, it's been quite helpful.

Sean
post #231 of 860
From the service manual, and info from around the net...

LTF= Samsung, T = AUO, V = CMO

Model - Panel Part #

LN32B550K1F - T315HW02 V2
LN37B550K1F - T370HW02 VC
LN40B550K1F - LTF400HA08
LN46B550K1F - LTF460HA06
LN52B550K1F - LTF520HB05 (My set has a panel code on the side of SS02)
LN40B540P8F - V400H1-L05
LN46B540P8F - T460HW03
LN52B540P8F - LTF520HB05
post #232 of 860
Bill,

I've done another calibration pass... and I had a few more questions. I've gotten a much better gamma and luminance graph and things are looking good in most respects. My one troublesome area is the overall contrast ratio. It's still hovering around 700:1. I think I have been chasing my own tail on this one but here we go...

My backlight is currently set to 4. I set the Contrast to 80, which got me to 40fl. I then multiplied that by .0065 and set the Brightness to 36 to get the correct black level using the Spyder. If I lower the backlight, I'm assuming that the 36/80 will go up to something like 45/95 or so. Could this be the source of my contrast issue?

Also, when setting the max white level, I've read that I should shoot for either 40 or 50 fl. Is this just personal preference? The room viewing conditions do change throughout the day, but for serious movie watching, I dim most of the lights, and have a 6500k fluorescent bias light behind the set. Should I split the difference and go to 45fl?

Sorry for all of these basic questions. I'll post my HCFR file again after I get the contrast/backlight issues sorted.

Thanks - Sean
post #233 of 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by SeanU View Post

Bill,

I've done another calibration pass... and I had a few more questions. I've gotten a much better gamma and luminance graph and things are looking good in most respects. My one troublesome area is the overall contrast ratio. It's still hovering around 700:1. I think I have been chasing my own tail on this one but here we go...

My backlight is currently set to 4. I set the Contrast to 80, which got me to 40fl. I then multiplied that by .0065 and set the Brightness to 36 to get the correct black level using the Spyder. If I lower the backlight, I'm assuming that the 36/80 will go up to something like 45/95 or so. Could this be the source of my contrast issue?

Also, when setting the max white level, I've read that I should shoot for either 40 or 50 fl. Is this just personal preference? The room viewing conditions do change throughout the day, but for serious movie watching, I dim most of the lights, and have a 6500k fluorescent bias light behind the set. Should I split the difference and go to 45fl?

Sorry for all of these basic questions. I'll post my HCFR file again after I get the contrast/backlight issues sorted.

Thanks - Sean

It sounds as if the issue is how you set your Brightness. I know, Tom Huffman's CMS calibration guide suggests setting the Brightness to 0.65% of reference white. That's his way of getting the average gamma to 2.2. It's best to think of his recommendation as appropriate if you have no separate gamma control, or if your set already has a perfectly flat 2.2 gamma. With the Samsung you have a separate gamma control.

The best advice I've seen is to use the AVSHD disk that has a great black clipping pattern. It is the first of the basic patterns. Set the Brightness such that you can just see level 17 or 18 blinking; levels 16 and below should be a uniform black. This will give you your lowest black levels, and your greatest contrast for a given level of white.

Backlight does not affect your measured black levels nor static contrast ratio, as HCFR subtracts out the 0% level from the other measures. It can affect how hard it is to get an even RGB curve, although this year's B sets do a better job of this than last year's A models.

As to your first question, the Contrast setting is personal preference for the given environment. Since my wife does not want to have to change things between night and day, we set ours at around 45 ftL, as it is not too bright at night, and is bright enough as long as some of the curtains are closed. Others choose to lower the Backlight even more, to get a higher contrast, and then adjust the Backlight up or down as needed for bright daylight or nighttime viewing.

Of course, after changing the Brightness and perhaps Contrast, you may find that your RGB graph is not smooth, or that your gamma level is off, and so you may need to adjust the gamma control again and tweak the grayscale calibration.

One must be careful when comparing contrast numbers with others, to be sure that one is comparing the same thing. On my A650, I have about 1600:1 on the blu-ray. On my son's B550, we were able to get over 2000:1. Both were the simple reference white / reference black numbers from the HCFR grayscale grid. These should be comparable to your 700:1. AVSHD has an ANSI Contrast pattern and HCFR has an ANSI Contrast grid, but these measure peak white (level 255) to black, rather than reference white (level 235) to black, and so yield a higher ratio if the source device passes WTW levels. I don't recommend using HCFR's ANSI Contrast measures because it clobbers the white level in the primary/secondary color grid; apparently they share the same cell for white.

Good luck,
Bill
post #234 of 860
Hey guys pretty big newbe here so sorry if things don't make sense. Well first off my brother had a few friends over and they messed around with my 40in b550. Went into the service menu and did an av calibration and bunch of stuff which I've sense fixed by reading a lot of stuff on this fourm. Question is sense that day for some reason the standard sound from the built in speakers doesn't seem to work and majority of the sound options in the normal menu are grey'd out. Thanks for any possible help.
post #235 of 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by blownup86 View Post

Hey guys pretty big newbe here so sorry if things don't make sense. Well first off my brother had a few friends over and they messed around with my 40in b550. Went into the service menu and did an av calibration and bunch of stuff which I've sense fixed by reading a lot of stuff on this fourm. Question is sense that day for some reason the standard sound from the built in speakers doesn't seem to work and majority of the sound options in the normal menu are grey'd out. Thanks for any possible help.

Here are the audio setting defaults from the Service Manual. It should be under the "Sound" menu. If this does not work, you can try to do a Factory Reset... its right at the top of the first menu. Highlight it, use the right arrow to go to the sub menu, and press the enter button on the remote. The tv should turn off.

Saturation Mute Off
M Prescale 20
A2K Prescale 20
BTSC Mono Prescale 20
BTSC Stereo Prescale 20
SAP Prescale 20
CH1 BW 0
CH2 BW 0
Num of Check 50
Stereo Count 35
SAP Count 20
Mono Weight 1
Stereo Weight 1
Dual Weight 1
BTSC M2S Threshold 128
BTSC S2M Threshold 112
SAP Threshold High 132
SAP ThresHold Low 101
FINE Vol 20
SAP Vol 20
Carrier Mute Thr High 45 Min
Carrier Mute Thr Low Wait
Carrier Mute Thr High [H-dev] M4
Carrier Mute Thr Low [H-dev] 46”
MP3 Level Wait
Master Vol 0x20
PWM Modulation 0xFE
DRC1 Threshold 55
DRC2 Threshold 80
SPEAKER EQ On
SC1 Vol 16
SC2 Vol 16
Audio Delay 60
SUB AMP Master Vol (no val listed)
SUB AMP PWM Mod (no val listed)
SUB DRC Thresh (no val listed)
SUB Speaker EQ (no val listed)
post #236 of 860
Well thanks sean. Two things one half of the options I'm not able to change like the Saturation ch1 Bw through Dual weight, the Fine and Sap Vols. Some others have 0x a value (80) instead of the regular values like my btsc m2s threshold currently reads 0x80 . I tried the factory restart got no where with that.
post #237 of 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by blownup86 View Post

Well thanks sean. Two things one half of the options I'm not able to change like the Saturation ch1 Bw through Dual weight, the Fine and Sap Vols. Some others have 0x a value (80) instead of the regular values like my btsc m2s threshold currently reads 0x80 . I tried the factory restart got no where with that.

Do me a favor if you can,

Post all of the settings/values from your service menu under the following sections :
Sub Option
Hotel Option
Adjust

I'll compare them to the service manual, and my set if necessary to see if anything looks out of wack. There are some settings that may be sound related, but because of the lack of description it's hard to tell (an example is "carrier mute".

Again, be very careful poking around in the menus... try not to touch any settings.

[*** A few more ideas ***]
It may seem dumb, but I would check a few basic things... you never know
1) Verify that the devices you are testing are actually putting out sound. It is possible that your cable box is muted, and not the TV
2) Make sure the TV volume is not set to low, or muted
3) Can you hook something up to the audio out on the tv to see if sound is getting passed through?
post #238 of 860
Sean i've attached excel file displying all the settings you asked for not sure what that adjust is, i've included the sound menu because figured that could be important as maybe I missed something.

As far as the other ideas
Its currently set up through just a regular Coax Cable hopefully once I move out of my brothers set up for HD, Tv is set fine that sound should be coming, and I have small speakers set through the out which produce the sound problem is cant control the speakers sound and its pretty low despite changing sound on the tv eventually want to get surround sound but for now would need to use the regular built in sound.

Edit: Found the adjust here at those settings
Dynamic Dimming: Off
Lna Plus RF
db1 level: 4
db2 level: 6
db3 level: 8
db4 level:14
Power Key Protect: Off
Uart Select: Auto Wall
Debug Mode: Debug Off
Black End Mute: Blank
Pdp Frc: Blank
Visual Test: Disable
Standy Mode Time:45 Min
Delete Alt ver: 2 flash
Ota confirm Time: 90 Min
Ota limit Time: 3hour
Dynamic CE: Off
Fwc: Off
1080p 48hz: On
PWM Max: 100
Quick Start: Blank
DTV Lna: Auto
HDCP Download Off
USB Download: Off (greyd out)

 

settings.zip 3.7470703125k . file
post #239 of 860
id like to thank bill and sean for their informative posts on this page

has anyone with calibration equipment checked to see whether enabling a low HDMI black level affects gamma? since enabling expanded blacks on my xbox 360 (which i think does the same thing as setting low hdmi blacks at the set - but also keeps the low blacks for video so your brightness settings don't need to be changed all the time) i have changed my gamma from -1 to +2 but this may be perceived and not actual. .

im of a miserly student budget which only just extended to the set and so purchase of calibration equipment is out of the question. this led me to see how well i could do it by eye. as far as gamma goes, i found several gamma charts on the web which work perfectly well on the computer monitor but just don't seem that helpful for this tv. by this i mean changing the gamma on the set didn't seem to move the blended section of the chart at all. either the set has a constant gamma of around 1.6 no matter how you change the gamma control (main effects using the charts seemed to be in color saturation), or something has gone wrong between downloading the pictures ---> memory stick ---> xbox 360

can anyone shed any light here?

also am i the only one who does not have any color options in the advanced service menu? not that i could properly set these without equipment but Bill's settings seem to be a very good starting point. my set is the le40b551a6w, bought in the UK with a panel version of SQ02

thanks
post #240 of 860
Quote:
Originally Posted by blownup86 View Post

Sean i've attached excel file displying all the settings you asked for not sure what that adjust is, i've included the sound menu because figured that could be important as maybe I missed something.

Can you try turning "Carrier Mute" off in the Sub Option menu?
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