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BD Live - A Let Down? Boston Globe Article

post #1 of 52
3/6/09 at 10:55am
Thread Starter 
http://www.boston.com/business/techn...ery/?page=full


OK I'll preface it by saying I own a couple of profile 2.0 players, Have not bought anything but Blu in over 1 year, have an extensive Blu library, and could not agree more with this article. (aside from the playstation3 games dig)

The concept of connectivity is great however in application it is severely lacking and is in fact a pain as it increases load times.

So what should be done to fix it?
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post #2 of 52
3/6/09 at 11:53am
They have dropped the ball on this.

This was my idea almost 2 years ago...

You buy the movie Transformers. Every time you play the disc is checks for updates on Transforms 2. It could let you know when a new trailer is released. They could release new trailers to only of owners of the BD first. They can offer discounts on tickets for opening night. Basically they could replace all the junk (extras) on the disc with DYNAMIC material.

I thought by now Disney would be all over this. Replace all those darned stale trailers that they try to force you to watch with new/current ones. When my kids go to watch Meet the Robinsons, they should get to watch an HD trailer for UP, Witch Mountain and Princess and the Frog. How hard could that be???
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post #3 of 52
3/6/09 at 11:58am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Everdog View Post

They have dropped the ball on this.

This was my idea almost 2 years ago...

You buy the movie Transformers. Every time you play the disc is checks for updates on Transforms 2. It could let you know when a new trailer is released. They could release new trailers to only of owners of the BD first. They can offer discounts on tickets for opening night. Basically they could replace all the junk (extras) on the disc with DYNAMIC material.

I thought by now Disney would be all over this. Replace all those darned stale trailers that they try to force you to watch with new/current ones. When my kids go to watch Meet the Robinsons, they should get to watch an HD trailer for UP, Witch Mountain and Princess and the Frog. How hard could that be???

I'm still waiting for the version of BD-Live that will go and get me a beer and popcorn refill...
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post #4 of 52
3/6/09 at 12:28pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by manikin View Post

http://www.boston.com/business/techn...ery/?page=full


OK I'll preface it by saying I own a couple of profile 2.0 players, Have not bought anything but Blu in over 1 year, have an extensive Blu library, and could not agree more with this article. (aside from the playstation3 games dig)

The concept of connectivity is great however in application it is severely lacking and is in fact a pain as it increases load times.

So what should be done to fix it?

Here is my proposal:

1. BD Live needs to be a web site that every Blu Ray player connects to by default.

2. When you put in a movie and it has BD live specific content it will take you to that section. Not all titles need to have special BD live features.

3. The main page allows you to watch previews of upcoming movies and download content to your player. Things like games and such

4. Ability to create an online BD community and have events etc.

BD live should be about creating a community that gets you access via a BD Live player.

The current approach is clumsy and in the end the user experience is terrible I dread to load a disk with BD live and have the sloading icon run forever. Completely useless for now.

Does anyoneknow why they used Java? To create Java programs for each movie is a nightmare I'm sure. Did they consider XML? or other light weight options?
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post #5 of 52
3/6/09 at 12:39pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by av.pallino View Post

The current approach is clumsy and in the end the user experience is terrible I dread to load a disk with BD live and have the sloading icon run forever. Completely useless for now.

Does anyoneknow why they used Java? To create Java programs for each movie is a nightmare I'm sure. Did they consider XML? or other light weight options?

For many players BD-J is torture. There are posts from people about discs taking forever to load. Also, BD-J was one of the causes of the format war to begin with!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Wikipedia View Post

In an attempt to avoid a costly format war, the Blu-ray Disc Association and DVD Forum attempted to negotiate a compromise in early 2005. One of the issues was that Blu-ray companies wanted to use a Java-based platform for interactivity (BD-J based on Sun Microsystem's Java TV standards), while HD DVD companies wanted to use Microsoft's "iHD" (which became HDi)... The negotiations proceeded slowly and ultimately stalled.

btw, I like your ideas.
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post #6 of 52
3/6/09 at 3:54pm
Quote:


Does anyoneknow why they used Java? To create Java programs for each movie is a nightmare I'm sure. Did they consider XML? or other light weight options?

Java is a way, way more powerful language than any thing else used in disks. What you can do with it is almost limitless. Having said that I have yet to see a really killer app done with it yet. The other thing about java is it is cross platform meaning you don't have just one company that is the gate keeper and can charge what ever they want because they have the monopoly. You can also use what ever processor you want. That is key as more green laws come in. The Arm processer has a very low power draw for example so would be good for devises going into California. You might pick a different processor if you cared more about CPU power and less about power drain.

As for things being a night mare it depends. If you are creating a game then yes it will be a nightmare. But if you look at some thing like U-Control I am sure they have a U-Contol class that they just import, change the skin if they want and they are out the door. It took some time and money the first time but then it is just reusable code after that. I would expect to see third party programmers/companies creating classes that do certain things, you just import the jar file into your project add a small bit of code and you have it. I don't think they have really gotten rolling on this yet and I also don't thing the killer apps will necessarily come from large studios at first. It will take some where smaller where more independent thought is encouraged.

Some thing to remember about load times is that most of that load time is getting stuff off of disk not crunching it through the processor. Ya a $40 DVD player has a 40X drive in it these days but the first DVD players didn't. Same thing with BD as we go along the drives will get faster and the load time will go down.

BTW it isn't mandatory to use BD-J. My guess is the newer stripped down Warner disks like Pelican Brief and a A Time to Kill have decided not to use BD-J.

But back to the original topic. My opinion is BD Live has always been about selling downloads. Period.
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post #7 of 52
3/6/09 at 4:22pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by manikin View Post

So what should be done to fix it?

Well BD-Live was not designed to compete with "a computer or game console" so the author did have a rather high expectation for what he was expecting BD-Live to do.
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post #8 of 52
3/7/09 at 12:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvillain View Post

Java is a way, way more powerful language than any thing else used in disks. What you can do with it is almost limitless. Having said that I have yet to see a really killer app done with it yet. The other thing about java is it is cross platform meaning you don't have just one company that is the gate keeper and can charge what ever they want because they have the monopoly. You can also use what ever processor you want. That is key as more green laws come in. The Arm processer has a very low power draw for example so would be good for devises going into California. You might pick a different processor if you cared more about CPU power and less about power drain.

As for things being a night mare it depends. If you are creating a game then yes it will be a nightmare. But if you look at some thing like U-Control I am sure they have a U-Contol class that they just import, change the skin if they want and they are out the door. It took some time and money the first time but then it is just reusable code after that. I would expect to see third party programmers/companies creating classes that do certain things, you just import the jar file into your project add a small bit of code and you have it. I don't think they have really gotten rolling on this yet and I also don't thing the killer apps will necessarily come from large studios at first. It will take some where smaller where more independent thought is encouraged.

Some thing to remember about load times is that most of that load time is getting stuff off of disk not crunching it through the processor. Ya a $40 DVD player has a 40X drive in it these days but the first DVD players didn't. Same thing with BD as we go along the drives will get faster and the load time will go down.

BTW it isn't mandatory to use BD-J. My guess is the newer stripped down Warner disks like Pelican Brief and a A Time to Kill have decided not to use BD-J.

But back to the original topic. My opinion is BD Live has always been about selling downloads. Period.

I agree Java is powerful but XML is easier, faster and light weight. It's also not controlled by any one company. When I think menus and U Control like stuff I'd assume XML rather than java would be a better cost value option.

But I also noticed that Microsoft had some version of non Java and why studios would not want to hitch themselves to MSFT proprietary tech. Was MSFT's approach AJAX like v Java?

While on MSFT I initially though BD Live would be like Xbox Live, but the context being movies. And yes, there would be a market place I guess I had a totally different idea than what I am seeing so far.
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post #9 of 52
3/7/09 at 1:13am
Friend of mine made a comment about his annoyance with BD-Live... the fact that most titles using it require you to use a PC to setup some kind of account, then login via your player with the account to access the content. That seems to defeat the purpose- why would he not just want to see the content when he's using his PC? It becomes too much trouble and he loses interest at the flaming hoops of death he has to jump through just to watch a trailer? This bothers me less than it bothers him but it's a valid point I suppose.
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post #10 of 52
3/7/09 at 4:35am
Quote:
Originally Posted by av.pallino View Post

I agree Java is powerful but XML is easier, faster and light weight. It's also not controlled by any one company. When I think menus and U Control like stuff I'd assume XML rather than java would be a better cost value option.

But I also noticed that Microsoft had some version of non Java and why studios would not want to hitch themselves to MSFT proprietary tech. Was MSFT's approach AJAX like v Java?

While on MSFT I initially though BD Live would be like Xbox Live, but the context being movies. And yes, there would be a market place I guess I had a totally different idea than what I am seeing so far.

If I remember correctly they use only a subset of java and not the full api. I remember reading it smewhere. May have been in an old AVS thread.
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post #11 of 52
3/7/09 at 7:14am
I still have a 1.0 player and no interest in BD Live sooo...BD Live is working fine for me.
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post #12 of 52
3/7/09 at 9:33am
Quote:
Originally Posted by av.pallino View Post

I agree Java is powerful but XML is easier, faster and light weight.

XML by it's self doesn't do any thing. It needs an engine to take what is in the XML and turn it into some thing that can be displayed on the screen or perform actions. Now that engine can be fairly light weight but then it is much less flexible. Really what you are arguing is that BD shouldn't have been capable of any thing other than simple menues. I am not sure why you think it is important to limit what the system is capable of.

I think some thing that might be getting in your way is the difference between your vision and the BDA's vision. The BDA thought that BD would be a viable format for atleast the next 10 years. I know you have a much shorter time frame in mind for it. Now they could have come out with a format that was obsolete the day the it came out but that would limit it's life span as other technology moved ahead. 10 years on the technology might look really weak. Now if BD is gone in 5 years then you are probably correct. Also if they didn't give the system the power to do more no doubt Toshiba would be back with HD-DVD v2 by now with added functionality.

Keep in mind that processors will get cheaper and faster, sub systems will get cheaper and faster, memory prices will drop etc. Judging the first years of BD agains that last years of DVD isn't really fair.
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post #13 of 52
3/7/09 at 9:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvillain View Post

XML by it's self doesn't do any thing. It needs an engine to take what is in the XML and turn it into some thing that can be displayed on the screen or perform actions. Now that engine can be fairly light weight but then it is much less flexible. Really what you are arguing is that BD shouldn't have been capable of any thing other than simple menues. I am not sure why you think it is important to limit what the system is capable of.

I think some thing that might be getting in your way is the difference between your vision and the BDA's vision. The BDA thought that BD would be a viable format for atleast the next 10 years. I know you have a much shorter time frame in mind for it. Now they could have come out with a format that was obsolete the day the it came out but that would limit it's life span as other technology moved ahead. 10 years on the technology might look really weak. Now if BD is gone in 5 years then you are probably correct. Also if they didn't give the system the power to do more no doubt Toshiba would be back with HD-DVD v2 by now with added functionality.

+1 xml isn't a language or an api. It's a file format definition, an offsping of html in which you define your own tags. You neeed to build a processor for it (xslt). Many language (including java) have some library of function or api to parse xml now but you still have to do some programation since like I said before you defined the tags yourself and your system doesn't know what to do with them.
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post #14 of 52
3/7/09 at 10:12am
Quote:
Originally Posted by fpconvert View Post

I still have a 1.0 player and no interest in BD Live sooo...BD Live is working fine for me.

And I have a Panny BD 55 that WILL allow BD Live but I do not and never will have it connected to the Internet. I prefer to keep what and when I watch to myself and not share it with millions of marketing companies.

So BD Live works just fine for me too.
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post #15 of 52
3/7/09 at 10:49am
Java was overkill and the only thing the BDA got wrong compared to HD DVD. It doesn't pass cost-benefit.
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post #16 of 52
3/7/09 at 10:53am
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovenola2 View Post

And I have a Panny BD 55 that WILL allow BD Live but I do not and never will have it connected to the Internet. I prefer to keep what and when I watch to myself and not share it with millions of marketing companies.

So BD Live works just fine for me too.

I hope for you that you never shop online, use a credit card or pay by check or cash card because all of the above will tell marketing company what you are buying and using. Same thing if you are using a video terminal from cable co.

Here we find it funny that Videotron (own by Quebecor Media owner of TVA tv distributor) is able to report 1 hours after the end of their tv show EXACTLY how many watched it. We get report like 2,753,364 person tuned in to the latest Star Academy episode
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post #17 of 52
3/7/09 at 12:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvillain View Post

XML by it's self doesn't do any thing. It needs an engine to take what is in the XML and turn it into some thing that can be displayed on the screen or perform actions. Now that engine can be fairly light weight but then it is much less flexible. Really what you are arguing is that BD shouldn't have been capable of any thing other than simple menues. I am not sure why you think it is important to limit what the system is capable of.

I think some thing that might be getting in your way is the difference between your vision and the BDA's vision. The BDA thought that BD would be a viable format for atleast the next 10 years. I know you have a much shorter time frame in mind for it. Now they could have come out with a format that was obsolete the day the it came out but that would limit it's life span as other technology moved ahead. 10 years on the technology might look really weak. Now if BD is gone in 5 years then you are probably correct. Also if they didn't give the system the power to do more no doubt Toshiba would be back with HD-DVD v2 by now with added functionality.

Keep in mind that processors will get cheaper and faster, sub systems will get cheaper and faster, memory prices will drop etc. Judging the first years of BD agains that last years of DVD isn't really fair.

As for the longivity of Blu Ray, if you read my first post in this thread you'll see that I actually believe Blu Ray can be a long term play and BD Live and be an important part of it. Sort of an all HD experience that you can't get anywhere else. However, it should not require you to buy a disk to enjoy it, a player should be what gets you a pass. A movie gets you extra access to content related to that movie. I thought of BD Live as a living space in the internet rather than a way to access extras that could easily be on a disk in any case.

The user experience with BD Live right now is very poor compared to DVD in terms of load times and being able to stop and resume a movie and such.
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post #18 of 52
3/7/09 at 1:12pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by ilovenola2 View Post

And I have a Panny BD 55 that WILL allow BD Live but I do not and never will have it connected to the Internet. I prefer to keep what and when I watch to myself and not share it with millions of marketing companies.

So BD Live works just fine for me too.

My PS3 stays connected via wireless and I never use BD live, so BD live is working fine for me too.

I don't care if they see what I watch though, porn is for the PC
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post #19 of 52
3/7/09 at 3:05pm
Quote:
The user experience with BD Live right now is very poor compared to DVD in terms of load times and being able to stop and resume a movie and such.

You are mixing a number of things up and I understand why. For example the part about starting and stopping a disk from the same place has nothing to do with BD live. My understanding is that it is a result of using BD-J. I agree it is some thing that sucks and should have been thought through.

I am still using my Panny BD-30 and I haven't really noticed the load times on any recent disks. But I just rewatched the Pirates of the Caribbean movies recently and the load times on them were absoluty brutal. There are two reasons I can think of for the difference. The first but I think less likely is the code wasn't as optimised on the earlier disks. The other is all the sh_t that Disney was ramming down your throat before you ever got to the actual top menu. Which brings up the question, was the load time caused by loading all the trailers, warnings, Interpol crud etc or the implementation of BD-J. Since the load time isn't any where near as bad on more recent disks where they aren't shoving that garbage down your throat, my guess is that it is related to the loading of the junk and not actually BD-J. But I can't say for sure.

BTW as a sysadmin/architect/programmer I hate all Java on principle. But the embedded people have latched onto it with both hands so we are stuck with it for now.

I think the BDA made a major mistake by making the Blu-ray platform a closed one. If they had made it an open platform I think you would have seen a lot of BD Live apps come out of the open source community. By slamming the door on them they have made sure that will never happen.
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post #20 of 52
3/7/09 at 7:18pm
This isn't directly related, but what I would like to see is a disc with all my college football teams 2008 games on it, and a BD-J functionality that would let me sort through the plays by type (pass, sweeps, 1st downs, etc.) and players (either that ran with the ball or that was in on a tackle, etc.) So that I could watch games straight through, or I could just follow certain players, plays, etc.

More awesome still would be a service that sent me a updated disc every week of the season, that I could keep in the back ground as I watched a game. If sports are selling plasmas, maybe they could sell BD as well.
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post #21 of 52
3/7/09 at 7:23pm
...or maybe use a live tv feed, but allow different commentators via BD-Live. You could have competing commentators, maybe even some local football coaches could broadcast their analysis on top of the ABC's commentators, in places where they think they have something useful to add.
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post #22 of 52
3/8/09 at 12:10am
A bunch of us on here called BS on BD live. A person has to go out of their way too much to enjoy little or nothing. It is pointless. "F" 2.0, even the average Joe really just wants a movie and if we can get the best sound/video quality we are golden as the rest is smoke and mirrors.
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post #23 of 52
3/9/09 at 7:49am
Thread Starter 
The keys for me to add to my appreciation of the movie would be.
1) Live doesn't kick in till viewing 2
2) Live brings up a web-page while the movie is loading that has 2 reviews - 1 positive, 1 negative
3) On viewing 3+ Live adds links to specific scenes that either the director, actors, studio, or fans want to bring attention to.
4) If you want to peddle downloads using Live - do it at the end of the movie, load it silently in the background while the movie is playing, and when stop or pause is is pressed bring up the hard sell in a PiP window.

How's them apples?
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post #24 of 52
3/9/09 at 8:02am
Quote:
Originally Posted by manikin View Post

1) Live doesn't kick in till viewing 2

That is a big one! No one wants extras BEFORE they watch a movie.
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post #25 of 52
3/9/09 at 8:35am
The author speaks of how BD-Live doesn't offer much. Why should it? It's a stupid idea, IMO.

I know this will sound just too traditional ... but sometimes, tradition is the answer. Film has been around for over a century. It quickly became an artform. It is one of the most collaborative artforms ever. But it was never meant to be in any way interactive! It's a one-way street ... sit down, shutup and watch the movie!

With home entertainment, first with VHS, then DVD and now BD, I thought the primary purpose was to deliver films and other created content to the home screen.

So I don't get it. And I don't want it. My last BD player purchase was the Panasonic BD50. Bought for the analog outs. Not the Net connection. it's never been connected to the Net ... and as long as I can continue to burn CD's for FW upgrades, it won't be.

All just my opinion.
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post #26 of 52
3/9/09 at 9:21am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Everdog View Post

That is a big one! No one wants extras BEFORE they watch a movie.

Exactly....
Live requires 1gb storage, a simple db that tracks the disc - views, and controls the options would take up tiniest of space.

Even then I think for most people it's all about the movie, with the best picture and sound - and I am probably one of them.
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post #27 of 52
3/9/09 at 9:24am
Quote:
Originally Posted by manikin View Post

Even then I think for most people it's all about the movie, with the best picture and sound - and I am probably one of them.

+1

Art
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post #28 of 52
3/9/09 at 2:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jvillain View Post

I am still using my Panny BD-30 and I haven't really noticed the load times on any recent disks.

Since the load time isn't any where near as bad on more recent disks where they aren't shoving that garbage down your throat, my guess is that it is related to the loading of the junk and not actually BD-J.

I guess you don't watch a lot of Fox discs. Try French Connection. Even the PS3 slows to a crawl on that one. And there are no trailers before the menu, nor any Bonus View or BD-Live features. The disc is just slow.
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post #29 of 52
3/9/09 at 4:59pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh Z View Post

I guess you don't watch a lot of Fox discs. Try French Connection. Even the PS3 slows to a crawl on that one. And there are no trailers before the menu, nor any Bonus View or BD-Live features. The disc is just slow.

What is it with Fox discs? Is it BD-J, BD+, a combination, or just a poor implementation?

I want to agree with manikin again. Have a quick check to see if you have watched the movie, and if not, don't even bother loading BD-J. The can even put a few old trailers in front of the movie if they want.

I also, think on later viewings they should skip any trailers on the disc and let you choose from some that are more current on-line...or let us bypass them altogether!

One note. 90% of the time I just watch the movie only. But there are times when I have friends over to watch to movies on my FP on the big screen. We make popcorn and treat it like we are at the theater (its a home theater after all!). In these cases, it would be fun to have trailers for movies that really are coming to theaters soon...not like on Disney discs where the movies came out 5 years ago but still say, "coming soon!".
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post #30 of 52
3/9/09 at 6:44pm
I wish they could do something about the stupid login on many BD Live discs. It takes forever to type in your name and password with the dumb on-screen keyboard (please put common symbol that you need on the first page such as "@" and "." While you are at it, I've yet to get Disney BD Live or Sony BD Live account/password to work with my player. Both username and password work fine on a PC, but not with my BD player. BD Live downloads also needs to work in the background while you are watching the movie, so it's ready by the time you are done.
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