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Yes Dear, I'm down here working on your craft room!! - Page 2

post #31 of 772
Ramble on my man, that is awesome. When someone new asks I'm the same way, then I see the lost look in their face after a minute or so and know that it's time to wrap it up.

That is perfect though, exactly what I wasn't sure about and what I wanted to hear. I would love to do the array as it would be easier but it will probably rip itself out from the wall. The manifold type would certainly work and the space for it being right next to the riser is probably a good thing (as in getting to feel all the shake and boom possible).

Hey look at that, you made to page 2 now...
post #32 of 772
So what is going on down here in the dark anyhow?
post #33 of 772
Thread Starter 
I did'nt actually Marry a "Master Gardener", however last fall my wife tells me she is signing up for a "Mastner Gardener" class at IUPUI. Long Story Short...
12 weeks of classes and 35 hrs of community gardening service, (under the supervision of an already certified master gardner of course), a certificate comes in the mail declaring that I am now officially married to a "Master Gardner".

I must admit initially the idea presented great appeal, and I showered her with the usual spousal support. I envisioned my home surrounded with a park like yard , and the relaxing garden atmosphere a "Master Gardener" would create.

So 2 weekends ago, She dawns her brightly polished "Master Gardener" Crown and drives the truck to Menards on her first "officially sanctioned" mission. 3 hrs later, she returns with her smile in high lamp mode and (4) Trees (14) 3-5 gallon plants, (16) 1 gallon plants, and countless flats of those little black thingies with flowers in them.

And only then, while staring at a truck full of foilage, the first of the "Master Gardener Proclamations" is announced to the minions. (me and our 2 boys).

Here ye!, Here ye! --- "Master Gardeners" do not dig their own holes ---
Yes.. , but... basement.... but.......

Now planting for a "MG" is not like planting the old fashioned way, where you dig the hole, drop the plant in, pea on it, and watch it grow, there are RULES.

--Nothing can be planted until it is viewed in at least 6 different locations
--All holes must be dug exactly 2 x the size of the plant container.
--We are no longer allowed to call the stuff under the grass dirt.. it is now "native soil".
--All backfill material must be mixed precisely with 1 part "Native Soil" and one part "Super secret Non Native Soil, that looks like dirt but is $6 a bag"
-- No earthworm is to be injured in the excavation, they are to be handled with respect then gently placed back into the general vicinity after the backfill is complete
(apparently without earthworms and bees the human race would perish in seconds or something)
--Your tool shed must now be referred to as "The Potting House"
--Unless you yourself are a master gardener, your opinion does not count.

These were just the ones I can remember

Here's a tip for you others out there who are either married to, or planning on marrying an "MG";
DO NOT under any circumstance.. get caught trying to bury your miller lite can under the plant... even if it does look like a great earthworm habitat.

But I must admit, I like it when she takes the Initiative... like the following week end when she had the 8 yards of mulch dumped in the center of the driveway.

Guess what proclamation #2 was...
post #34 of 772
Your space is coming together nicely. Nice work and great thread. I'm looking forward to your continued progress.
post #35 of 772
Thread Starter 
Thanks kjlewie, I had set the end of May as my "Target" to have the room shell completed, but with the spring weather and my wifes new hobby i will miss it by a week or so.

I think Douglas Adams said it best:

"I love deadlines. I like the whooshing sound they make as they fly by."
post #36 of 772
Thread Starter 
Despite universal efforts (ie wife/kids/beautiful weather) to twart continued construction in the theater, I was able to make some progress in the last couple of weeks.

Heres the total of whats gone into the theatre walls in the 16.5' x 18.5' room + the IB chamber
205 sheets of assorted MDF, Dwall, OSB
(6) 5 gallon Pails of Green Glue
1.75 cases of SilenSeal.

Finally finished the hanging all the layers of Dwall, and got the first coat of mud on. Without a doubt the IB chamber was a huge PITA to hang all the layers in.


Still need to build the door to seal the IB chamber in the center. But you can see the 2 holes for the manifolds to carry the (4) 18's

Picked up a couple solid core Oak veneer doors on sale.. these are interior doors.. I will remove the door stop and router a step around it to accept an exterior seal from an exterior door, add a bottom sweep then tapcon an exterior threshold in. This will save about $150 per door compared to quotes i got from a local mill works. I'll post pics to better explain when I do it.



I had wrapped the beams in the GG Dwal, but decided i need a little more depth inside the soffit(would have been tight even for a low profile can, so i added a 2x on the bottom and another layer of dwal on the front of the soffit, this gives me 7" inside, plenty of room for cans.
I still have 7'5" to soffit bottom, and should end up at 7'4" when completly finished.


Even without the Doors completly sealed, the room has an odd feeling inside now, hard to describe. But with the work radio in the room at above normal listening levels, absolutly nothing can be heard in the house directly above the theater. Curios to see how the efforts stand up aganist the LF's of the IB.

Lastly i want to post this jewel of a pic.. This is what you miss if you contract out the work..... A shot from the stairway into the basement....


This was a result of the "Mad Rush" to finish the shell. I took a load of Dwall scrap to the dump. Its mostly cleaned up now. still need to add the framing for the second door to the theater entrance.


I hope it rains, so this weekend i can finish the Mud, and get started on the manifolds for the IB.
post #37 of 772
Good stuff! Now that there garden post is funny! One thing you forgot to report on was how many beers went in to this so far

Jeff
post #38 of 772
Quote:
Originally Posted by KNKKNK View Post

I must admit initially the idea presented great appeal, and I showered her with the usual spousal support. I envisioned my home surrounded with a park like yard , and the relaxing garden atmosphere a "Master Gardener" would create.

DO NOT under any circumstance.. get caught trying to bury your miller lite can under the plant... even if it does look like a great earthworm habitat.

But I must admit, I like it when she takes the Initiative... like the following week end when she had the 8 yards of mulch dumped in the center of the driveway.

Wow, did you marry my wife's sister?

Almost the exact same...except it was a lot more mulch dumped in the middle of the driveway.

I went through a 12 pack of Yuengling that day.
post #39 of 772
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffC View Post

One thing you forgot to report on was how many beers went in to this so far

Jeff

Honestly I have not been keeping track, but I dont think it could be that many, because I usually get a pretty good buzz from one beer...

I just can't ever remember if its the 13th or 14th one.

Cheers..

Brad
post #40 of 772
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnsteph10 View Post

Wow, did you marry my wife's sister?

I wouldnt wish my mother inlaw on anybody.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnsteph10 View Post

Almost the exact same...except it was a lot more mulch dumped in the middle of the driveway.

I went through a 12 pack of Yuengling that day.

Had I known then what I know now... i would have bought her a new digital camera and encouraged a photography class.... My yard may have not looked as good but there would have been alot more Pics of the HT build. and as a bounus she could have used the inside of the IB chamber as a dark room...

Funny, that thought just reminded me of an old Pat Travers Band song..... Boom, Boom out go the lights...
post #41 of 772
Thread Starter 
Well a little progress is better than no progress.

I finally got the pieces for the 2 IB manifolds cut using a "Track Saw" from dewalt.... really, really, cool tool for this type of work.
I ended up using 3/4 Birch Ply, which was actually cheaper than the MDF by $5 per sheet on sale.

Below are shots of the "Dry Assembly"... looks like it'll go together as planned. Manifold is 24" x 24" OD, 21" x 21" ID




Next step is to glue the assy together and router out for the Drivers.

Brad
post #42 of 772
Thread Starter 
Manifolds Glued and Screwed


Braced inside so I could route the openings for the drivers



Cut the first 18.5" od in 3 passes



Moved in and opened the slot up



Used a 1/4" up twist bit for the 16.75" id
Cut through in 2 passes





She fits



1/4-20 T nuts, lock washers, counduit clamps and bolts



Added a washer under the clamp to increase the surface area on the rim



One in



One Manifold fully assembled with the 18's. The Five gallon bucket puts it in perspective




This thing Weighs a TON I'll bet all of at least 180-190 lbs with the drivers. Definately will need help to slide them in the manifold openings.

I bought all the "T" nuts the store I stopped at had so I need to find some more to finish the 2nd manifold..

Im also going to put in shorter bolts and a drop of blue loctite ..

Some Goodies came last week also...




120" AT 2:35


I'm gonna set these up in my office for the time being..

Brad
post #43 of 772
Quote:
Originally Posted by KNKKNK View Post

Added a washer under the clamp to increase the surface area on the rim



One in


Just curious... what prompted you to use the mounting method above instead of using the pre-drilled holes in the mounting ring of the subwoofer?
post #44 of 772
I don't even have that much subbage (servo 15, SVS Ultra) and I have trouble keeping bass from leaking into the rest of the house. Your room is gonna rock.
post #45 of 772
Quote:
Originally Posted by KNKKNK View Post

Added a washer under the clamp to increase the surface area on the rim

Holy Infinite Baffle Batman!

Seriously, will this mounting method be secured enough? It seems as if those drivers will push out on those condiut brackets when a lot of bass action is occurring. No?
post #46 of 772
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jimlab View Post

Just curious... what prompted you to use the mounting method above instead of using the pre-drilled holes in the mounting ring of the subwoofer?

jimlab ...

For the design of the manifolds and mounting of the drivers, I have been following the recomended practices found on the "Cult of the Infinitely Baffled"
http://ibsubwoofers.proboards.com/
The use of the clamps instead of the mounting ring seems to be the Best known method.

Heres a quote from the FAQ's section on the above mentioned site;

"I recommend the use of some form of clamp to secure the woofers to the box. The placement of the standard mounting screws in the frame of the woofer, leaves very little wood between the opening cutout for the driver, and the holes for the mounting screws. Using clamps avoids problems with tear out of this area. Clamps also make mounting and dismounting the drivers much faster and easier."

Brad
post #47 of 772
I pre-drilled holes in the recessed area of the ring you have shown.

Then installed metal thread inserts in the holes, set with thin epoxy.

This gave me metal threads to screw into. Machine thread screws with blue LockTite (the medium grade)

Solid as hell
post #48 of 772
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bing View Post

I don't even have that much subbage (servo 15, SVS Ultra) and I have trouble keeping bass from leaking into the rest of the house. Your room is gonna rock.

Bing

Hopefully the time/effort/ $$ spent on the room construction will payoff.
I dont have any illusions about containing all of the LFE, but hopefully it will be down to the "Rumbling thunder off in the distance" level in the rest of the house, when its at the "I think my heart stopped" level in the room.

post #49 of 772
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by kezug View Post

Holy Infinite Baffle Batman!

Seriously, will this mounting method be secured enough? It seems as if those drivers will push out on those condiut brackets when a lot of bass action is occurring. No?

kezug ..

My understanding (although very limited) is that since the drivers are not contained in a sealed box with the "Air Spring" forces at work, and since each driver has an opposing driver, there are not the same mechanical forces at work as with a normal sub..

The IB drivers are not driven nearly as hard as the sealed box subs, because with out the "Air Spring" forces they would hit their excursion limits eaisier, thus they rely more on the quantity of drivers and the total volume of air displaced. ( I'm just parroting my intrepretation of what I have read from the others that have done this.. this is my first IB so it is a "learn as I go" experience for me also)

Brad
post #50 of 772
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted White View Post

I pre-drilled holes in the recessed area of the ring you have shown.

Then installed metal thread inserts in the holes, set with thin epoxy.

This gave me metal threads to screw into. Machine thread screws with blue LockTite (the medium grade)

Solid as hell

Ditto.. i used the "T" nut inserts and will use the Blue loctite after I get the shorter bolts.. the difference is that I mounted them outside the ring and used clamps rather than the holes in the mounting ring..

Although this seems extremely robust.. after some of the concern that has been expressed with the use of the conduit clamps, im starting to second guess.. Ill probably look for something a little more rigid than the clamps I have..
Brad
post #51 of 772
Quote:
Originally Posted by KNKKNK View Post

For the design of the manifolds and mounting of the drivers, I have been following the recomended practices found on the "Cult of the Infinitely Baffled"
http://ibsubwoofers.proboards.com/
The use of the clamps instead of the mounting ring seems to be the Best known method.

Heres a quote from the FAQ's section on the above mentioned site;

"I recommend the use of some form of clamp to secure the woofers to the box. The placement of the standard mounting screws in the frame of the woofer, leaves very little wood between the opening cutout for the driver, and the holes for the mounting screws. Using clamps avoids problems with tear out of this area. Clamps also make mounting and dismounting the drivers much faster and easier."

Thanks Brad. They might make removing a sub quicker (although screws do come out of the mounting ring just as fast), but did you note this statement?

"For smaller and lighter weight woofers, common clamps for 1/2" electrical conduit can be used."

I don't think your 18s fall into the "smaller and lighter" range.

Just FYI, I worked my way through college in a high end car stereo shop and I've built more subwoofer boxes of various configurations than most people. I've seen "engineered" clamps used occasionally, but never felt a need to use them myself, and I've worked with 15s and 18s extensively. I've never had a driver "tear out" of a box, no matter how much power was thrown at it.

I suspect the person who stated that there was "very little wood between the opening cutout for the driver, and the holes for the mounting screws" is one of those people who invents things to worry about. 8 screws through 3/4" MDF or plywood is more clamping force than a 15" or 18" driver can overcome, in my opinion.

Good luck with your IB sub!
post #52 of 772
Looking good Brad,

Question though, the IB's that I have seen set up like the one your making usually have the woofers facing in toward the inside of the box with the cages on the outside and the open port or center of the box facing towards the room. How are placing your boxes? I know I suggested the IB, but as you know I'm not extensively educated on the subject, so the way your placing them may be a different method of going about, just thought I'd ask and learn something new. Keep up the good work my friend.
post #53 of 772
^^What oman said. I was thinking the EXACT same thing when I first saw your pictures.
post #54 of 772
Thread Starter 
Oman / Nelson

The mounting of the speakers in this fashion in the manifold is called an "Outie Design". The output is the same regardless of which way the driver is mounted, ie front wave vs rear wave, doesnt matter for the sound.

People choose this mounting orientation for various reasons, sometimes they dont have clearance on the sides in their attic /basement etc.. and mounting with the magnets on the inside of the box gains needed clearance.. others dont have room to make a manifold large enough to mount the magnets on the inside becasue thier building their manifolds to port between wall studs/ floor joists.

Some designs have one driver in and one out, with the drivers wired in reverse phase, (mechanically in phase) so the rear wave from one driver cancels out the front wave from the 2nd driver. It just depends on the individual prefrence / application and what constraints may exist.

I personally chose this mounting orientation for a purley astetic reason.. "My Plan" (MY PLAN sounds like an oxymoron in this endeavour) is to back light my SMX AT screen, like the infamous sandmans screen.
http://www.smxscreen.com/images/Right-Back-Speakers.jpg
I need to paint the inside of the manifolds black then I will then put LED's in behind the drivers that light up with the back lights.. I just think the a$$ end of the drivers look cool and this might provide a real sense of menace to the look, with the 2 large manifold ports and the 4 drivers staring back at you through the screen.

Hopefully I dont get a noticable reflection from the driver castings back through the screen during a movie.. if i do i will just remount the drivers on the outside of the manifolds..

Brad
post #55 of 772
Quote:
Originally Posted by KNKKNK View Post

Oman / Nelson

The mounting of the speakers in this fashion in the manifold is called an "Outie Design". The output is the same regardless of which way the driver is mounted, ie front wave vs rear wave, doesnt matter for the sound.

People choose this mounting orientation for various reasons, sometimes they dont have clearance on the sides in their attic /basement etc.. and mounting with the magnets on the inside of the box gains needed clearance.. others dont have room to make a manifold large enough to mount the magnets on the inside becasue thier building their manifolds to port between wall studs/ floor joists.
Some designs have one driver in and one out, with the drivers wired in reverse phase, (mechanically in phase) so the rear wave from one driver cancels out the front wave from the 2nd driver. It just depends on the individual prefrence / application and what constraints may exist.

Ah now I see.

Quote:
Originally Posted by KNKKNK View Post

I personally chose this mounting orientation for a purley astetic reason.. "My Plan" (MY PLAN sounds like an oxymoron in this endeavour) is to back light my SMX AT screen, like the infamous sandmans screen.
http://www.smxscreen.com/images/Right-Back-Speakers.jpg
I need to paint the inside of the manifolds black then I will then put LED's in behind the drivers that light up with the back lights.. I just think the a$$ end of the drivers look cool and this might provide a real sense of menace to the look, with the 2 large manifold ports and the 4 drivers staring back at you through the screen.

Hopefully I dont get a noticable reflection from the driver castings back through the screen during a movie.. if i do i will just remount the drivers on the outside of the manifolds..

Brad

I LIKE IT!!! Carry on!!
post #56 of 772
I bet you close the door and you feel in a different place in that room. My room isnt done yet, but I have a couch and screen so I can semi use the room...tonight I was watching the hockey game with the wife and I turned to her and said "someone can rob our upstairs and I wouldnt even know it" her response "I know"

I mean I didnt use any special sound isolation techniques, just single drywall to joists. so I can only imagine what it is going to be like when you are finished and you lock yourself in the theater.

Looks sweet, cant wait to hear how the sub turns out.
post #57 of 772
Brad, thanks for posting in my thread. Now I've read yours... Great stuff and I can see the similarity with my build in the IB area. Funny thing is that I just ordered the same 4 drivers this morning before reading your thread

Some questions:
1. Maybe I missed it but could you point my to your thread on "the cult". I'd like to read.
2. Now I see your why you questioned the interior of the IB chamber in my thread. Did you get some advice that the MDF layer was a good idea?
3. What is the volume or your enclosure? Did you manage 10xVas ?

Now what I've learned:
Given that your construction is similar to mine and that you are coupled to the concrete floor already, attaching the IB sub to the floor would not make any difference (i.e. trying to isolate it from the floor is futile) however avoiding direct coupling to the walls would/could be beneficial to containment. I'm still researching my "build on a stage/floor" concept to avoid coupling to the walls.

Cheers.
post #58 of 772
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Moggie View Post

Brad, thanks for posting in my thread. Now I've read yours... Great stuff and I can see the similarity with my build in the IB area. Funny thing is that I just ordered the same 4 drivers this morning before reading your thread .

Moggie .. Mine took about 12 days to arrive.. wait until you open the box and actually hold one...It puts a smile on your face..
Quote:


Some questions:
1. Maybe I missed it but could you point my to your thread on "the cult". I'd like to read..

Heres the link
http://ibsubwoofers.proboards.com/in...ay&thread=1364
Not much there really, that isnt in this thread. The guys at the cult are great and tons of help but no one seems to worry much about sound isolation.. I think the term they used for my chamber was "Heroic Overkill"

Quote:


2. Now I see your why you questioned the interior of the IB chamber in my thread. Did you get some advice that the MDF layer was a good idea?

Actually, I was just tying to mix materials in an attempt to lower the ultimate resonance points, and the MDF adds more mass then another layer of just Dwall would.
Quote:


3. What is the volume or your enclosure? Did you manage 10xVas ?

I ended up slightly over 6.. They recommend 4-5 min, with 10X being the theoretical point of infinity.. yours will definately be ok at ~ 8.2. like you I will be adding alot of insulation inside the chamber to increase the effective volume.
Quote:


Now what I've learned:
Given that your construction is similar to mine and that you are coupled to the concrete floor already, attaching the IB sub to the floor would not make any difference (i.e. trying to isolate it from the floor is futile) however avoiding direct coupling to the walls would/could be beneficial to containment. I'm still researching my "build on a stage/floor" concept to avoid coupling to the walls.
Cheers.

I fully agree with the Dampened platform approach to reduce the "mechanical" vibrations.. although providing a resiliant seal for the manifolds without coupling to the walls presents an interesting challenge.

When I was pondering the various approches to isolation I finally decided that the transfer of energy through the concrete slab in a basement would be difficult to eliminate short of a truly "Floating Floor". At one point I had considered sawing the concrete floor around the perimenter of my room to try to decouple the floor .. but decided I had to draw the line somewhere between theoretical and what was realistic for a home theater.

I can however see a benefit to a sand filled platform as low cost insurance, even if the walls are coupled to the floor. It can do nothing but help dampen vibrations from the manifolds.

With sound isolation as the primary objective, I threw as much as possible inside the chamber, particullarly at the ceiling. I think the LF's through the ceiling of the chamber will have more of an direct impact on whether I will hear anything upstairs. I lowered the ceiling in the chamber to get ~ 22" of airspace between it and the floor above. I lined the entire chamber with 3/4 MDF, GG, 5/8 DW, GG, 5/8 DW, at the end i had some 1/2 DW left from another part of the basement and added it with another layer of GG to just the ceiling.

Its like a little bomb shelter in there... I honestly dont care if I ever go into that room again.. seems like i was in there forever screwing Dwall and spreading GG, with VERY little room to work

Brad
post #59 of 772
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by smakovits View Post

I bet you close the door and you feel in a different place in that room. My room isnt done yet, but I have a couch and screen so I can semi use the room...tonight I was watching the hockey game with the wife and I turned to her and said "someone can rob our upstairs and I wouldnt even know it" her response "I know"

I mean I didnt use any special sound isolation techniques, just single drywall to joists. so I can only imagine what it is going to be like when you are finished and you lock yourself in the theater.

Looks sweet, cant wait to hear how the sub turns out.

Hey Smack..

Actually its kind of a wierd feeling in there.. really quiet, but its all hard surfaces so very echoy (word?) Hard to describe but its an odd, almost an uncomfortable feeling in the room right now.

Your right someone could break in and clean me out and i wouldnt know it if i was in the room... at least they wont get my HT equiptment.

I checked in on your thread the other day... your whole basement is looking great..

Brad
post #60 of 772
Quote:
Originally Posted by KNKKNK View Post

... I just think the a$$ end of the drivers look cool and this might provide a real sense of menace to the look, with the 2 large manifold ports and the 4 drivers staring back at you through the screen.

Brad

Sounds pretty wicked to me. Looking forward to it.
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