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Benq w6000 - Page 4

post #91 of 2423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

LED: maybe it's stupid thinking but i go with how dim leds are compared to the typical 50w halogen spot. is there a limitation in led technology ? colors and contrast said to be amazing but brigthness ?

There is limitation with LED technology as far as lumens right now. They are pushing hard to get to 700 lumens or so, but there is also talk that they look brighter than the same lumens from a lamp. With time LEDs will get brighter, but I'm not sure how fast that will happen. Green seems to be the most limited right now, but with the Vivitek they just run the green for half the time and blue and red get about a quarter of the time each.

If they open irises up all the way they can get more lumens, but at the expense of native on/off CR. I would prefer to see things like the Sharp 12k and JVC where the user gets to choose between going brighter or higher native on/off CR instead of forcing people into one. If that one is chosen as middle ground it can hurt both sides (not as many lumens as some people would choose even with lower native on/off CR and not as much native on/off CR as others would choose even with lower lumens).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

i remember the sharp. in fact the Z9000 in cinemascope did a much bigger impression to me in 2000 it was i think than the Z12000 because it had 3x more lumens in fact!

I preferred the 12k. I just set it up with a screen that gave me about 2.4 gain to my main position, so close to the same white as the 9000 with a 1.0 gain screen, but with way better blacks overall in real content and with the ability to go way brighter in ft-lamberts to that seating than a 9000 on a 1.0 gain screen.

And why prefer a 9k when all you had to do was use the high lumens mode of the 12k for what was likely a little bit better on/off CR and maybe even a few more lumens than the 9k?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

the search for ultimate contrast should not be at the expense of brigthness as imho screen sizes get bigger (the average or what people want) over time.
i have lots of clients who want the 300-450cm wide screens (add microperforations (not talking of woven models, ansi and lumens KILLERS (ie -40%) and you NEED something "capable" (withouth breaking the bank account for most people... sic).

Why purposely keep the higher CR modes out for the people who can live with less lumens? Does that accomplish anything for those who need higher lumens? For instance, if you have a client who needs 500 lumens should they have to live with grayer blacks because somebody else needs 1000 lumens and providing 1000 lumens would mean less CR (just the way light and the technology works)? And should the client who only needs 1000 lumens have to live with even grayer blacks because somebody else needs 2000 lumens? The Sony Qualia is a good case in point. They gave the choice to the user with about 2000 lumens for the brightest mode when the bulb was new, but with low on/off CR. Should they have just locked the projector in that mode and not allowed the higher on/off CR modes? And what would it have accomplished if Sharp had locked the 12k or 20k into the highest brightness mode? It wouldn't have helped those who need more lumens and neither would JVC having locked the iris open instead of giving users a choice.

I think people should be told that the lumens spec and on/off CR spec aren't for a single mode and at least JVC professional gave a small indicator in the specs on their site where the CR spec says, "Native: 50,000:1 (max.–depends on aperture setting)".

I understand that some people need more lumens. If a person wants an acoustically transparent screen it may limit their choices and another person may decide that they are willing to give up the AC screen for something else (like higher contrast ratio). Rooms have different limitations for screen sizes and I like to see manufacturers addressing those customers who need more lumens, but I also think they should address those people who don't need (and maybe don't even want) more lumens. Especially when the only thing needed to address each is to leave it up to the user to choose. That also addresses the market who only needs or wants the brighter mode some of the time (like TV with the lights on, some video games, etc.)

One advantage of dynamic irises is that they can basically provide the max lumens and max CR at the same time. Kind of simplification, but basically true. So, this W6000 might work well for people who need both and can live with the issues with dynamic irises. But it also depends on how good the dynamic implementation is.

Also, LEDs systems bring something new where the LEDs can be used for the modulation and then they could go to things like the Sharp, Qualia, or latest JVC where the user can choose the iris position which then determines a tradeoff between lumens and native on/off CR. And neglecting to put in irises so the user can choose doesn't really help anybody other than saving a little bit of money for implementation or maybe making some people frustrated that they can't get both the higher lumens and the higher native on/off CR when they never could have gotten that combination to begin with anyway. That is, leaving out the higher native on/off CR option wouldn't have helped the native on/off CR for the high lumens mode unless it meant lower maximum lumens.

So, those who want maximum lumens might be better off with manufacturers putting in options so the user can choose between max lumens and max CR. Otherwise the manufacturers might pick something in the middle and make everybody live with that. Seems to be what has happened with this new Vivitek LED DLP so far. The iris in the lens doesn't give the most lumens or the most native on/off CR, but something in between. With a system like Sharp's or even JVC's they could likely go brighter for those who need it.

--Darin
post #92 of 2423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

LED: maybe it's stupid thinking but i go with how dim leds are compared to the typical 50w halogen spot. is there a limitation in led technology ? colors and contrast said to be amazing but brigthness ?

What are you comparing to? There's an enormous array of LEDs with varying applications and brightesses.

My LED Maglites are significantly brighter than their "normal" lamp brethren. I think that's a pretty apples to apples comparison. Same power source (eg 3 D or 2 AA batteries). That and they last longer so that means they're easily putting out more light on less power.
post #93 of 2423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

IN83: bright but on off falls hard indeed and the chip visibility is atrocious.
the IN 81 is more bang for the price compared.

Yes On/off falls quite a bit in the bright modes but you find me a projector under $10K or $20K for that matter that can produce a calibrated 1300-1500 lumens without loosing the black levels. By the way on/off is still around 3000 to 1 but that is because white is very bright, black levels do fall quite a bit. Anyway, my goals are a little different than most of yours, and that goal is to reproduce the feeling of the commercial theater at home as best I can. The best commercial theater produces 2000 to 1 on/off at its very best so I am still doing better than that. I love sitting in the front row of my theater which is about 12.5' from a 12' wide scope screen, I wouldn't trade that for a million to 1 on/off CR.

By the way what is chip visibility? As I said the biggest problem is brightness uniformity as one of the corners drops in brightness nearly 40% from the center. But honestly as bad as that sounds I only notice it in solid color scenes and I still have to look for it. It really is not that bothersome.
post #94 of 2423
Has anyone taken the plunge and ordered one of these to try out?
post #95 of 2423
Well got to keep an eye on this one might be the one for me when I upgrade in a few months. Screen size around 140" and a throw of about 22'. FWIW the projector is the main tv so the extra lumes is a good thing for me(watch everything on it). Also don't have total light control all the time, I call her wife, lol. Anyways anyone who has one yet give up the goods, let us know how it goes.

thain
post #96 of 2423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thain View Post

Well got to keep an eye on this one might be the one for me when I upgrade in a few months. Screen size around 140" and a throw of about 22'. FWIW the projector is the main tv so the extra lumes is a good thing for me(watch everything on it).

Glad to know I am not the "only" one that watches everything on the projector... people were starting to look at me "funny" .........
post #97 of 2423
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Thain View Post

Well got to keep an eye on this one might be the one for me when I upgrade in a few months....

thain

I see forum sponsor projector people have an ETA of August 24th for this one. Is AVS going to be selling this projector? I'm not sure if they actually carry BenQ products???
post #98 of 2423
As far as I know they are still a dealer for BenQ. Then again maybe not. Just checked the Product page and BenQ isn't listed.
post #99 of 2423
Note that BenQ's USA website lists the W6000 as being a "Corporate/Home Entertainment Projector".

When I first read about the W6000, my take was that it would be a "hybrid" projector.....not a true upgrade of their 5K and 20K HT projectors.

Sadly, with the manufacture listing the W6000 as being a corporate projector first and a HT projector second, it looks like my suspicion is correct.

It looks like the W6000 won't be the one for me. Which is unfortunate, with me being a lumens freak (2,500 lumens......sweet).

http://www.benq.us/products/Projecto...nloads&dType=S
post #100 of 2423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkhunter View Post

Note that BenQ's USA website lists the W6000 as being a "Corporate/Home Entertainment Projector".

When I first read about the W6000, my take was that it would be a "hybrid" projector.....not a true upgrade of their 5K and 20K HT projectors.

Sadly, with the manufacture listing the W6000 as being a corporate projector first and a HT projector second, it looks like my suspicion is correct.

It looks like the W6000 won't be the one for me. Which is unfortunate, with me being a lumens freak (2,500 lumens......sweet).

I think this is a rather odd statement. While I agree that the specs of the W6000 has to make you suspicous whether or not they sacrificed color fidelity or contrast to reach higher lumen output (+40% lamp wattage = +108% lumen output doesn't add up), or whether they just made it more flexible - or simply lies more than they did on the W5000 - that remains to be seen. However, if you look at the specs, the only thing that would make this projector more viable for corporate use, IS the higher lumen spec. So saying that you want higher lumen spec, but then not wanting a cross-over product, is kind of missing the point. The issue isn't whether or not they choose to name it a cross-over product (which, I agreee, is rather odd given that at least in Scandinavia it will be sold exclusively through AV dealers...). The issue is how they are reaching that claimed lumen output, and whether or not the image quality suffers from it. One way of doing it is using a color wheel that is more transparent, thus decreasing the color saturation (which would be a Bad Thing (TM)). This is BTW basically what Infocus have been doing. Another way of doing it is having a very flexible manual iris, so that you can choose between a very open position with high lumen output but poor contrast, and a closed position with high contrast but poor lumen output. That would be the preferrable choice, since a lot of people will be using a projector in this price range with fairly small screens, so a fixed high lumen output is actually not very helpful.

In short, wait for the reviews before drawing any conclusions. In my opinion, the main drawbacks of the W5000 was never sharpness or noise issues that everyone seemed to be raving about, but calibrated lumen output and actual contrast ratio. I don't care what the max light output of the W6000 is, what I want is double the _calibrated_ light output (calibrated as in hitting Rec.709 colorspace and colordecoding, not just hitting D65 with BC on!), preferrably with much better contrast as well. IF they achieve this, it will be a killer product. But as I said, I am suspicious that they traded something in for the lumen output, so I won't be drawing any conclusions until I see it myself.
post #101 of 2423
BTW, speaking of Infocus and high-lumen output HT projectors, I think it's safe to say that Infocus is deader than disco when it comes to releasing HT-oriented products. I don't think we should expect anything new from that front, so this definately leaves a hole in the market for a high-output, reasonably priced projector, so fingers crossed for BenQ pulling it off.
post #102 of 2423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkhunter View Post

Note that BenQ's USA website lists the W6000 as being a "Corporate/Home Entertainment Projector".

When I first read about the W6000, my take was that it would be a "hybrid" projector.....not a true upgrade of their 5K and 20K HT projectors.

Sadly, with the manufacture listing the W6000 as being a corporate projector first and a HT projector second, it looks like my suspicion is correct.

It looks like the W6000 won't be the one for me. Which is unfortunate, with me being a lumens freak (2,500 lumens......sweet).

http://www.benq.us/products/Projecto...nloads&dType=S

I know exactly what you're saying as I've had the same thoughts (the price, plus the lumens, plus the contrast spec, just seems destined to be disappointment). But I'm sort of with Otto, if you really need 2500 Lumens, I wouldn't be so quick to pass this up. If Lumens are of primary importance, you're going to have to sacrifice something, either quality/contrast of lots of cash (for something like a DP Titan).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Otto J View Post

BTW, speaking of Infocus and high-lumen output HT projectors, I think it's safe to say that Infocus is deader than disco when it comes to releasing HT-oriented products. I don't think we should expect anything new from that front, so this definately leaves a hole in the market for a high-output, reasonably priced projector, so fingers crossed for BenQ pulling it off.

I don't know, they're bringing back the ScreenPlay line, and the SP8602 sounds rather interesting.
post #103 of 2423
They don't even refer to the W6000 as being a HT projector. They call the W6000 a Home Entertainment projector. To me, this sounds like a display that you would use for viewing VHS tapes, not BD discs.

As a lumens freak, lumens rules. If I had $75K to $78K (depending on the lens option) to spend on a projector, I'd purchase this projector:
http://www.blog.ultimateavmag.com/ul.../midnight_sun/

With its two 330W UHP lamps achieving 12fl on a 300" diagonal screen, just imagine how bright the picture would be on a 159" HP, in my true batcave. Hell, I'd worry about the HP catching on fire.

While the projector's native optical CR is more than 10,000:1, it's a projector's lumens that rules, not it's CR or blacks.....IMO.

With this being the case, I'll go ahead and order a W6000 from the BenQ store in the first week of September.
post #104 of 2423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Elkhunter View Post


With this being the case, I'll go ahead and order a W6000 from the BenQ store in the first week of September.

Yeah, do that...and then tell us if it blows or not.
post #105 of 2423
Projector People now lists an ETA for the W6000 of Sept. 15.

Looks like it might be awhile before we see some reviews.
post #106 of 2423
I should get two units next week (end)
i'm curious about real lumens at say 8000K but with good skin tones (i don't like that much the 6500, i guess i'm Japanese in my color temp preference)
if it can do 1500lumens with 500-600:1 ansi and 5000:1 on off without DIiris, good(and without BCOLOR)
that's twice a JVC in lumens and ansi.
and on off good enough in CIH config
post #107 of 2423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

if it can do 1500lumens with 500-600:1 ansi and 5000:1 on off without DIiris, good(and without BCOLOR)

You think this thing is going to double or triple the W5000's static/native CR? At double the brightness? Really?

"unfortunately, that's not gonna happen."
-Hauser



Quote:


and on off good enough in CIH config

5000 static with a good DI is probably enough I agree (it is on my Planar ), but not at 1500 Lumens IMO.

I foresee a lot of disappointed people with this W6000 unfortunately. I'm thinking optimistically it will match the W5000 in Static CR (maybe 1500-2000:1 on a good day). Unfortunately at twice the brightness that means the black level will be significantly worse.
post #108 of 2423
we'll see
then up to the DI to do its job invisibly (not bad on the W5000 as I remember).
ansi is paramount and dlp still has a HUGE advance there
post #109 of 2423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

I should get two units next week (end)
i'm curious about real lumens at say 8000K but with good skin tones (i don't like that much the 6500, i guess i'm Japanese in my color temp preference)
if it can do 1500lumens with 500-600:1 ansi and 5000:1 on off without DIiris, good(and without BCOLOR)
that's twice a JVC in lumens and ansi.
and on off good enough in CIH config

Look forward to your impressions when you get the PJ's in.
post #110 of 2423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blasst View Post

Look forward to your impressions when you get the PJ's in.

I'll post pics, screenshots too. will be tested on a 171" scope screen (width)
LL
post #111 of 2423
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

I'll post pics, screenshots too. will be tested on a 171" scope screen (width)

Man after my own heart, nice theater! What projector do you use in that theater today?

I look forward to any feedback you have after testing on that screen. If it will light that bad boy up then it will do just fine on my 146" wide scope screen.
post #112 of 2423
Thread Starter 
So I spoke with someone at BenQ Canada today who was supposedly somewhat familiar with the w6000 (it took me about 6 transfers to get to her) and she said it was a definate replacement for the W5000 and closer in performance to the w20000. . I know there is alot of skepticism on the specs of this machine (mostly due to the very high reported contrast and high lumens - right stranger89??) but, it doesn't hurt to keep our hopes up.

The home theater projector market really needs some <~$3k range decent performing DLP units with friendly offsets. The $7k to $8k range is well represented with the planar and marantz units and there are 3 or 4 <$1k 1080p units now so it's done to the infocus 8602 or the w6000 from what I can see. (or a w20000 on sale).

BTW she estimated late Sept or Early October availibility for us Canucks.....
post #113 of 2423
should get one unit this week
currently that screen is illuminated by a SIM2 D80E very close (it sits at
550cm about, with an ISCO)
remarquable pj with great lumens thanks to UNIPATH
i hope the benq does better than the IN83 which is disappointed (bad black level with iris open).
it's the real trick: i'd say 1500lumens BUT with on off 5000:1 or more
(ansi remains great on the dlp no matter the lumens)
post #114 of 2423
Quote:
Originally Posted by astrocyte74 View Post

I know there is alot of skepticism on the specs of this machine (mostly due to the very high reported contrast and high lumens - right stranger89??) but, it doesn't hurt to keep our hopes up.

Pretty much, they promised everything with this machine, specs alone it should smoke an RS20, Planar, Marantz, just about everything out there but the "big iron" Digital Projection, Sim2, etc. It's basically a Sim2 Lumis on paper.

Something's got to give, you know the old adage, for projectors it's something like "Brightness, Contrast, Price, pick any two".
post #115 of 2423
Shouldt there be a review out on web by now? If costumers get it in short time, the AV magazines\
eviewers should have had their hands on a units these days..
post #116 of 2423
AV magazines are months behind current in HT these days.
post #117 of 2423
Thread Starter 
yeah, one of the big AV mags just reviewed the "new" epson 6500UB this summer even though users have been using it since December.
post #118 of 2423
www.projectorreviews.com will review it next week i think
projectorcentral soon too i suppose (they did the W5000)
lol i'll do it end of the week
post #119 of 2423
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Digital2004 View Post

www.projectorreviews.com will review it next week i think

Is that an educated guess or have you actually read that somewhere??

Anyway, looking forward to your thoughts on this one as well!!
post #120 of 2423
I'm posting this in the "official" W6000 thread, instead of the camera/BMW M3-M5 thread.

Art posted in his blog that the W6000, quote: ".....definitely looks like a worthy successor to the W5000, which I have regarded highly..."

The MAP is $2,799.

www.projectorreviews.com/blog/
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