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Stereo Pre-amp with HT Bypass? Do they exist? - Page 3

post #61 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by merrymaid520 View Post

Hello,

Bill just ordered his 2100 but I have had mine for some time. we both had the proceed though. I choose the 2100 over the proceed pre mainly to gain the sub input/output feature to complete a 2.1 setup rather than just 2ch. (I have a EQ'ed Rythmik 15" sub that adds alot of depth to my setup). On top of that I gained a bit more clarity/imaging too.

Jack bought my Proceed pre and likes it from my understanding....hopefully

Good luck!

Brandon

Most recorded music doesn't have a LFE channel, so there is no reason not to use a pre-amp w/o a sub out. Its just a matter of using speaker level inputs on the sub. I use the same subs for both HT and stereo setups, the HT connected via coax and the stereo via speaker wire. Just have to flip the LFE/normal switches on the subs, when changing from one system to the other.
But either the Proceed or Parasound would be a good choice.
post #62 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

Most recorded music doesn't have a LFE channel, so there is no reason not to use a pre-amp w/o a sub out. Its just a matter of using speaker level inputs on the sub. I use the same subs for both HT and stereo setups, the HT connected via coax and the stereo via speaker wire. Just have to flip the LFE/normal switches on the subs, when changing from one system to the other.
But either the Proceed or Parasound would be a good choice.

4D,

Correct, speaker level inputs & such can be used, but its not nearly as user friendly, and you loose the ability to have seperate crossovers(one for 2ch & one from your receiver/processor). The 2100 has its own crossovers for the mains and the sub itself. Both are bypassed when HT bypass mode is enabled. I agree that both preamps are excellent, but when incorporating the sub, the 2100 is way ahead
post #63 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by merrymaid520 View Post

4D,

Correct, speaker level inputs & such can be used, but its not nearly as user friendly, and you loose the ability to have seperate crossovers(one for 2ch & one from your receiver/processor). The 2100 has its own crossovers for the mains and the sub itself. Both are bypassed when HT bypass mode is enabled. I agree that both preamps are excellent, but when incorporating the sub, the 2100 is way ahead

If you use the LFE connection for the HT, the AVR or pro/pro is setting the XO point. And if you use speaker line connection for a stereo setup the sub's XO sets the point.

But it really makes no difference if the stereo pre-amp is sending a full range signal (as my older Citation does) to the sub, or if it has a low pass sub out. So for a music playback stereo system using the a coax or speaker wire connection gives the same result.
post #64 of 186
Makes sense.

the problem I ran into with using a 2ch pre(one without sub controls) is that when using the speaker wire conections the subs X over must be used(enabled) but then manually has to be turned off when using the LFE connection from the processor. Otherwise you will effectively be using two X overs simultaneously, right?


I think I am confused now

Brandon



Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

If you use the LFE connection for the HT, the AVR or pro/pro is setting the XO point. And if you use speaker line connection for a stereo setup the sub's XO sets the point.

But it really makes no difference if the stereo pre-amp is sending a full range signal (as my older Citation does) to the sub, or if it has a low pass sub out. So for a music playback stereo system using the a coax or speaker wire connection gives the same result.
post #65 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by merrymaid520 View Post

Makes sense.

the problem I ran into with using a 2ch pre(one without sub controls) is that when using the speaker wire conections the subs X over must be used(enabled) but then manually has to be turned off when using the LFE connection from the processor. Otherwise you will effectively be using two X overs simultaneously, right?

I think I am confused now

Brandon

Brandon,

I have a similar setup where I have two cables connected to a sub. One from the line stage and one from the SSP sub output. When using the line stage pre amp as you write, I use "VAR" setting on the subwoofer, cross over point controlled by the subwoofer. When using the SSP, I set the controller on the sub to REF, which means the cross over is controlled by the processor.

I generally leave the processor off when I use the line stage for 2 channel, but the subwoofer must be set to VARIABLE using the cross over on the sub or it will receive a full range signal. Neither of my line stages have the ability to manipulate the crossover settings. Both have two pairs of line outs, so I connect the first set of line outs on the preamp to the left and right channels of the amp and on the second pair of line outs on the pre amp, run the single sub cable to the subwoofer.
post #66 of 186


In your situation, as the 2100 has a separate connection for the sub and the ability to use a crossover setting on the 2100, I think you would use the setting, "Reference" on the subwoofer because the crossover is controlled by the 2100?

Now you have me confused?
post #67 of 186
MODS, Any chance of this thread becoming a sticky???
post #68 of 186
Unfortunately, there is no standard when it comes to sub amp connection/settings.
On my BASH plate amps they have a LFE/crossover switch. So its set to LFE for HT (which bypasses the sub XO) and XO for the turntable system.

Others only have a crossover control, so that means turning the sub XO all the way up so it doesn't interfer with the AVR's XO point. While other sub amps have regular sub coax connections and LFE connnection, but no switch. And I'm sure there are other connection/switch/crossover combos I haven't thought of.

And if the sub doesn't have a LFE input and the AVR or pre/pro doesn't have a LFE out, then I think, you only get regular bass output, not the encoded .1 channel.

It would be nice if there was a standard for all subs, no matter what the brand. And for AVR sub out as well, like a pair of L/R sub outs plus a LFE out, like Lexicon MC12s have.
post #69 of 186
[quote=Mozvz;16190224
In your situation, as the 2100 has a separate connection for the sub and the ability to use a crossover setting on the 2100, I think you would use the setting, "Reference" on the subwoofer because the crossover is controlled by the 2100?

Now you have me confused? [/QUOTE]

I never touch the crossover setting on the sub at all. It stays inactive at all times. So for 2.1 ch listening through the 2100, the 2100's internal x over is used, I use about 75hz. When playing movies through my receiver, the 2100 is in HT bypass therfore the sub signl passes through the 2100 un touched utilizing only the receivers x over setting.

You guys are confusing me All I know is having the sub control on a 2 ch pre is a blessing in disguise!
post #70 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by 4DHD View Post

It would be nice if there was a standard for all subs, no matter what the brand. And for AVR sub out as well, like a pair of L/R sub outs plus a LFE out, like Lexicon MC12s have.

I agree on your comment. The Lex has great connections and bass management from what I've heard from users of this piece. I've never owned a Lexicon component so I default to reading feedback from users on the forums. I guess the sub makers make them different to keep us on our toes and our brains active.

Quote:
Originally Posted by merrymaid520 View Post

I never touch the crossover setting on the sub at all. It stays inactive at all times. So for 2.1 ch listening through the 2100, the 2100's internal x over is used, I use about 75hz. When playing movies through my receiver, the 2100 is in HT bypass therfore the sub signl passes through the 2100 un touched utilizing only the receivers x over setting.

You guys are confusing me All I know is having the sub control on a 2 ch pre is a blessing in disguise!

The Parasound product line is very, very good. I owned their HP-850 at one time and it was a great unit. It never had the functions of the 2100, but had a photo stage and just enough for a small setup that I had in my computer room. It was a $200 investment and was one of the better pieces of gear I owned in my audio life. Life changes and so does audio gear. Actually, when I listed that piece in the AVS's sale area, it sold within 2 hours. I wish they were all like that!!

As you know there are not a lot of 2 channel line stages with the dedicated sub connection and internal crossover. In fact I think Parasound is the only company that might make one?

Anyway, the line stage/s I currently own don't have this function so I gotta get off my butt and change that crossover switch on the sub. IN the end I can use the exercise and it's always worth the effort. Sometimes I use my sub and other times I don't dependent upon volume level. I always thought a 2 channel pre amp is a nice compliment to a quality system if that is a focus. I still adhere to this idea, but of course, there are differences of opinion on this topic.



post #71 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by roscoeiii View Post

Hi Bill and Brandon,

I wanted to get your thoughts on the Proceed vs the 2100. What made you decide to make the switch? I'm trying to decide between the two as we speak...

-Roscoe

Roscoe,

It has been quite awhile since I had the Proceed Pre in my system. I progressed from the Pre, PS Audio PCA-2, Rogue Audio Perseus and now a Bel Canto PRe3. They all had their own sound qualities and operational differences. I have been interested in the 2100 for awhile and when Brandon bought one I just had to have one. SQ and having a sub output with a degree of adjustments with the 2100 is what has me really interested. If you can possibly demo both in your system that might be the best way to determine which one works and sounds best.

After hearing Brandon's thoughts I was even more interested as I respect Brandon's opinion as we have similar equipment. I should have the 2100 on Tuesday will post my thoughts once it is up and running.

Maybe the 2100 owners should start a "2100 owners" thread as it seems there will be quite a few here on AVS. I think most of them are from WI as I think Brandon is on the Parasound "Sales Team" now.

Bill
post #72 of 186
The greatest benefit the 2100 has is that it allows you to send either full range to your amp or employ a high pass crossover and send only everything above 80hz to your amp.

I see 4DHD's point that you can employ the sub's crossover for bass purposes on two channel music using the line level input and use the LFE input for HT, but that isn't really the point of the 2100.

The 2100 has its own bass management with a variable cross over for the sub outs and a high pass crossover for the L/R preouts. When HT bypass is engaged, all crossovers are bypassed and what comes in goes out. Its a great solution for people with L/R speakers they would rather not run full range. Of course, there are preouts on the 2100that send the full range signal out as well if you don't want to use the high pass xover.

The only other way to get that functionality from a two channel preamp is to run the speaker cables into a sub with speaker inputs and use its high pass filter to send only frequencies above a certain level to your speakers. I think letting the preamp do this task is probably a better solution.
post #73 of 186
Does the Parasound line or any other current line of highly regarded stereo preamps have a home theater pass through function that passes signal when the unit is off, and has at least one set of balanced inputs and out outs. I was looking at the Cary CPA-1, but Cary confirmed that the unit must be on to pass an HT signal through from an HT pre/pro.
post #74 of 186
Modwright LS36.5 has XLR and HT bypass while off. I'm sure there are several others on the lists provided in this thread which meet that description.
post #75 of 186
The Sony TA-P9000ES will output the 5.1 bypass input even when unpowered.
post #76 of 186
The Red Wine Audio Isabella will pass through a signal for HT bypass powered off according to the owner Vinnie. The HT bypass is an upgrade on this piece for around $200. I confirmed the information on both issues after exchanging emails with the company.

http://www.redwineaudio.com/Isabella.html
post #77 of 186
Per Conrad Johnson, all CJ's must be powered on to use HT bypass.
post #78 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Modwright LS36.5 has XLR and HT bypass while off. I'm sure there are several others on the lists provided in this thread which meet that description.


I looked at the Modwright but could not tell if the balanced inputs can be used for pass through, which would be helpful in the equipment configuration I am envisioning. If not, I really need one more input than the Modwright has. Thanks for the suggestion.

Edited to add: This preamp would be driving a Cary Cinema 5 amp and Salk V3 speakers. An HT processor would pass left/right mains through it for HT duty, (preferably on the balanced inputs). Connected inputs would be: turntable, cassette deck, CDplayer/DAC, HD tuner, and (until I can get tapes transfered to disk), A VCR stereo audio output.
post #79 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanlanman View Post

I looked at the Modwright but could not tell if the balanced inputs can be used for pass through, which would be helpful in the equipment configuration I am envisioning. If not, I really need one more input than the Modwright has. Thanks for the suggestion.

Edited to add: This preamp would be driving a Cary Cinema 5 amp and Salk V3 speakers. An HT processor would pass left/right mains through it for HT duty, (preferably on the balanced inputs). Connected inputs would be: turntable, cassette deck, CDplayer/DAC, HD tuner, and (until I can get tapes transfered to disk), A VCR stereo audio output.

You could look at the Parasound P7 which has balanced inputs and outputs. Not sure if the balanced input can be used for HT Bypass though. I just got the 2100 which does not need to be on to use HT Bypass. So I would think the P7 can also be used for HT Bypass with it off. I tried to link the P7 manual from the Parasound site but was not sucessful. Gave it another shot, here is the link to the P7 manual.

http://www.parasound.com/pdfs/P7Manual.pdf

Looking at the P7 manual it appears that you have to use one of the 7.1 inputs for the HT Bypass. The diagrams in the P7 manual are pretty bad.


Bill
post #80 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sanlanman View Post

I looked at the Modwright but could not tell if the balanced inputs can be used for pass through, which would be helpful in the equipment configuration I am envisioning. If not, I really need one more input than the Modwright has. Thanks for the suggestion.

My error. I just checked the manual and the single set of XLR inputs may not be used for HT/BP, which uses a dedicated set of RCA's.
post #81 of 186
I am starting to fall in love with Parasound, they have cute gadgets, I honestly like the T3, even tho I do not know the prices, and also I need to know if they have ht bypass

The 2100 is equally nice! Thank you for your tip! [/quote]

Kate, I'm a Parasound guy too!!!! WIll you marry me!!!

I second the 2100, you can't touch Parasound quality for what it costs.
post #82 of 186
I think trying to find a preamp with HT Bypass that allows a balanced input to be used for the HT Bypass input and being powered off when using HT Bypass could be a tough one to find. Plus saying that three times fast might be just as difficult.

The P3 does not have HT Bypass unfortunately. There are quite a few on Audiogon for pretty fair prices.

Bill
post #83 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post


After hearing Brandon's thoughts I was even more interested as I respect Brandon's opinion as we have similar equipment. I should have the 2100 on Tuesday will post my thoughts once it is up and running.

Maybe the 2100 owners should start a "2100 owners" thread as it seems there will be quite a few here on AVS. I think most of them are from WI as I think Brandon is on the Parasound "Sales Team" now.

Bill

Thanks for the kind words. Guilty as charged as well I am just very happy with the 2100 and feel its performance and features make it a great addition to any HT/2ch setup.
post #84 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by RUR View Post

Per Conrad Johnson, all CJ's must be powered on to use HT bypass.

Correct. I can attest and verify this comment. Just press the EPL 2 button and you're there.
post #85 of 186
This could be another option ?
I read a topic on amps with HT bypass and it included the Marantz PM8003.

The description on the Marantz for the (PRE OUT jacks) and (POWER AMP/DIRECT IN) are the following

PRE OUT jacks
These jacks are for connection via the input jacks of
another main amplifier or active subwoofers. These
jacks cannot be used in Power Amp Direct mode.

POWER AMP DIRECT IN jacks
These jacks are used as input jacks when you use
this unit as a power amplifier in Power Amp Direct
mode. If you use another preamplifier, connect it via
these jacks. In this status, the sound volume cannot
be adjusted by turning the VOLUME knob.
post #86 of 186
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicagorep View Post

I am starting to fall in love with Parasound, they have cute gadgets, I honestly like the T3, even tho I do not know the prices, and also I need to know if they have ht bypass

The 2100 is equally nice! Thank you for your tip!

Kate, I'm a Parasound guy too!!!! WIll you marry me!!!

I second the 2100, you can't touch Parasound quality for what it costs.

Yes.. I will..

Get me Classe Pre Amp + Classe Power amp + 801D and oh... dont forget the diamond ring! LOL

Oh wait.. maybe mbl gear + emmlabs cd... hmmm WAIT no... McIntosh MC2k power amps!

lol...

I didn´t buy the Parasound.. As a matter of fact, I didnt even buy a pre-amp.. I bought a HTPC and I am considering a speaker upgrade BEFORE thinking of getting better amps!

post #87 of 186
Quote:
Originally Posted by kate* View Post

Yes.. I will..

Get me Classe Pre Amp + Classe Power amp + 801D and oh... dont forget the diamond ring! LOL

Oh wait.. maybe mbl gear + emmlabs cd... hmmm WAIT no... McIntosh MC2k power amps!

lol...

I didn´t buy the Parasound.. As a matter of fact, I didnt even buy a pre-amp.. I bought a HTPC and I am considering a speaker upgrade BEFORE thinking of getting better amps!



Oh Crap, she wants a dowry
post #88 of 186
I may have found what I am looking for. The Cambridge Audio 840E Preamp. Selectable gain setting on any input, and if I read it correctly, it works when the unit is in standby, IE front panel power off, rear panel power switch still on. See page 12 at this link to the owners manual where it specifically refers to use with an AVR with preamp outputs.

http://www.audioadvisor.com/pdf/CA840E.pdf

Now if I can find some actual user reports?
post #89 of 186
Whoops, nevermind, I completely forgot that I had been through this drill last July on another AVS thread on Cambridge Audio.
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=940874

Still have the same concerns on the 840E, although it comes closest to my "ideal" preamp.

Neil Gaders brief review on AVguide.com gave the 840E and 840W a pretty good review but said the 840W amp was the better of the 2 in some parameters such as midrange soundstaging. I really don't put too much buying decision weight into most reviewer's reviews anyway.

Still on the fence.
post #90 of 186
The 2100 I have did pass a signal when the power was off.

Correct on the CJ. My LS17 will not pass a signal when the power is off.

The modwright 9.0 was different as the HT bypass completely bypassed all internal circuitry. Of course, my real problem with it was that it did not invert phase on the HT bypass inputs but did on the others, so I had to switch the speaker wires every time I switched between HT and 2 channel. Great sounding preamp though.
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