Official Cary Cinema 11a/11v Owner's Thread - Page 7

I'd guess the price pint comment goes for just about anyone that owns or is considering the 11a. The issue being that to get the same or close sound quality out of a typical processor costs a lot. -- It would be a shame, since the 11a is exactly what I've been looking for. I don't really need or care for all of the video abilities that the others offer.

I have always liked Arcam though, and wasn't aware of the AV888 until your posting. Looks like it might very well be worth the money, and has some nice features.

The Classe of course is also quite nice. in addition to everything else, the upgradable DSP module is a nice touch.

I really would rather keep the 11a though if they can get all the basics right. And besides, I doubt I could pass and extra few $k past my wife right now. (though if they don't fix the 11a soon, she may be more than willing ;-)

-Chris

I'm seriously considering going back to 5.1 analog if the next FW doesn't fix the issues. Nothing really out there at the 11a's price point and I'm not going to spend $8k on a processor that have their own problem. Actually reconsidering the Krell S-1000 again, or even the HTS 7.1. Depends on what I can get it for. Until HDMI gets more stable(2-3 yrs.), this might be the way to go.

Any thoughts?

BTW, contrary to a certain member's thinking here, 5.1 analog is not really going backwards. It sounds DAMN GOOD!!!!!!

As I also have pointed out before, multichannel SACD on this one:
http://www.electrocompaniet.no/produ...-amp/ec49.html sounds lightyears better than the C11a. Even the compressed audio sounds better than the HD sound from the C11a. I expect that they will come in close or the Cary might even top it if Cary can fix the decoding issues. I do not expect that the C11a HD audio tracks will outperform the SACD part. The gap is just too big.

That depends then on the DAC's in the player. If You have a very good player then by all means 5.1 analog should sound great.

My plan was (is still for now) to depend on the 11a for multichannel D/A. And so get something like the Oppo BDP that does video very well, but may not have extremely good audio section. (I don't expect it will have bad sounding DAC's, but I expect the Cary would be better)

Though.. maybe 5.1 analog from the player is not a bad way to go after all That Bel Canto that Tony points out does look nice.

Anyone ever give the Parasound P7 a listen?

-Chris

Sorry for the off-topic detour, but...


Extreman, do you have a link over there in Europe where I can download the user manual for the Electrocompaniet EC 4.9? (in English)... it's never been available on the website.

I'm also looking at a non-processor solution, and will be happy to let a modded universal player do the new codecs... looking at these pre's:

http://www.mcintoshlabs.com/products...nel-preamp.asp
http://www.hometheatersound.com/equi...rmack_map1.htm

Don't need room correction, don't need internet connectivity, don't need an iPod dock... just want a solid multichannel music playback system that can also do movies... HDMI to the display only.

Thanks in advance.

Sure - here it is:
http://www.electrocompaniet.no/pdf/m...9%20Manual.pdf
Check also page 8 of this one:
http://www.electrocompaniet.no/pdf/b...ochure2008.pdf
It beats the Conrad Johnson CT6 high-end pre in sound quality at the same price level (but the CJ is only 2 channel). Check out the Reviews section on their web. Check also the distributors link for your area.
I have great contacts in EC, so if you want answers on technical issues, among other things send me a PM and I will forward it if you want.
Having said this I have no position or other interest in EC - I am only a satisfied customer
I reckon some OT is allowed while we are waiting for the new firmware......

Thanks, E... the connections are exactly what I was interested in... for some reason I was under the impression the 4.9 had proprietary connex that were intended for their own combi-player... not much Electrocompaniet information or presence in the US.

I sure hope Cary comes through for you guys, and I'm confident they will eventually - they've been a respected brand for a long time... what is perplexing is how most of the high-end manufacturers are having trouble implementing the new technology, while the mainstream AVR mfrs are rolling out seemingly bulletproof receivers.

Wonder if they're just trying to cram too much into one box.

Oh well, back to watching from the sidelines.

Sunday afternoons are normally spent reading the New York Sunday Times. The only newspaper I read. I do read it cover to cover all sections.

I start the afternoon by first turning on the music system in the Theater where I do my reading and select a list of DTS CD's to listen to. I then startup the system. It has now become normal that the Left front is missing. I normally no longer try and figure out what is wrong as that is a hopeless endeavor (not what the symptom is but what the underlying problem may be) without an understanding of what operational modes do what. For example Bypass vs DSP, is stated as an analog process. Does this mean it is only in effect of the input is an analog source as opposed to an optical or coaxial one?

I did discover one thing. when I switched on the system and the FL was missing I tried to switch to HDMI 1. There is a cable there but the source was powered off. The 11A now hung as if it were trying to figure out what was going on. No front panel controls worked. After a few (10-15) seconds it recovered and I was able to switch back to port 3 where my music was coming in to. The music was there but no FL speaker sound.

A power cycling of the unit cleared it up and all channels then worked properly.

As a separate issue the use of the Radio system in zone 2 is a disaster. For it to work properly it must be turned on in zone 1 also. From what I can deduce there is one radio, and 4 tuner sections. Both zones share the radio. Whenever is playing in zone 1, plays in zone 2. Changing stations in zone one changes them in zone 2. That actually makes sense, not what I want though. What does not make sense is if Zone 1 is not playing the radio, then zone 2 can not control the radio. It is a very good radio though, with excellent selectivity, sensitivity, and separation.

My overall thoughts to date are great disappointment. The issues seem to weave through out the fabric of the design. When it is working correctly it puts out some of the best sound my old ears have ever heard. When it is not working correctly it is a very frustrating device. If my late wife (who had a masters degree in CS and was very electronic literate) was still alive I would have had to return it by now to maintain peace. She was an audiophile and would not tolerate the sort of frustration I am enduring.

Right now I use analog bypass for my sources and have a pretty good preamp. Anything that goes through the DSP has problems of one sort or another. Absent a Blu-Ray movie and pressing the movie mode (the 11a should let the user select a default mode for each input rather than having to guess or assure what mode you're in with all these convaluted work-arounds) and not interrupting the movie with a pause or stop, I am very frustrated with the unit.

Like many of you I am sitting on the fence and waiting for the next release. Given I listen to music 85% of the time and HT the remaining time, if Cary can't get it right, I will get something like an used ARC REF3 or LS26 preamp and an Integra DHC 9.9 for the times I watch a Blu-Ray/DVD or something from HD Cable. The Integra cetainly doesn't sound as good as the Cary but is a much more stable platform for HT and offers more features and will be fine for me for HT use.

If I listened to HT much more than I do, I be doing something else. If the Cary functions as advertised on its website after the next release, I won't be doing anything for the time being. If not, I'll sell the 11a for whatever I can get for it. I'd only come back to the 11a,11b or whatever when Cary has this sorted out in the DSP area.

I sold my more expensive seperate preamp before I got the 11a thinking I could save some money and use the 11a for both music and HT. Wish I hadn't.

The SPAC connection is only for advanced control, nothing mandatory.

Here is the US distributor of EC:
USA
World HiFi Group

Contact Matthew Waldron
14641 South 800 West Suite A
Bluffdale, Utah 84065
Phone 801.208.8295
Fax 801.208.8298
E-mail info@worldhifigroup.com
Web www.worldhifigroup.com/

I was about to say that this is an everyday experience for me (ref. my posts about pulling out the HDMI plug and then reinsert it when it freezes and crackling in SR & SL), but actually I have just stopped using the unit. I leaves me in such a bad mood that I just keep it switched off until another firmware revision is ready.

funny, so have we. For the first time, maybe ever, we're using the internal speakers in the TV.


I agree with this. There are a handful of things that would simply be idiosyncrasies - just minor annoyances in the overall design. However on top of these basic functional issues they just add to the pain. (I use the radio quite a bit, and had hoped for more features from the HD Radio. I also had hoped for more triggering flexibility from "3 outputs")
(BTW: DIM = digital interface? DSP + digital signal detection and lock?)

It just seems to have so many issues around simply detecting and syncing to the digital inputs. I guess many processors come into the world as an overgrown DAC with the analog preamps as afterthoughts. This one came in as an analog preamp that doesn't quite speak digital...

waiting for the day we can preaise the performance of the 11a, and we will have gotten our money's worth. (and seriously considering putting my old Rotel back for a while.)

I`ve got me an Aten hdmi swich, and continue using my EAD Encore.
It never have any problems with phase and speaker distance, ( the 11a said - phase on ctr.speaker, and way out of distance for all speakers) The EAD sends pink noise for level, and pulses for phase.
The analog is better than Cary, and it never fails in decoding, Dolby dig. or DTS.
If you upgrade speakers and pow.amp, the end result can beat the new decoding formats.

2 years from now maybe there is some proper working processor.

Haavard.

Maybe another option is ASI Chris; a member down here got his Oppo 983 modded and is very happy with it . The new 83 or even a pio 51/05 could benefit

http://www.asi-tek.com/

Sorry for the post... I had not been getting the updates and just realized there is a new thread...
I am still a C11 (no 'a') owner but just wanted to post so I will get the weakly email messages for this thread as I may upgrade some time...
thanks

Lets hope that this doesn't also happen with this tread while (painstakingly) waiting for Cary's firmware upgrade

I had my first 'Official' movie party in my 'almost' finished home theater last night. 'Twilight' was the movie. It had, of course, a lossless soundtrack, DTS MA. Well, my good ol' Lexicon played the downconverted(or whatever the proper term for it is) soundtrack with aplomb, but I couldn't help but to keep thinking 'man, I wish this was the true DTS MA lossless audio track, how good it must be'. Which made me think of the Cary. And, being a follower of this thread from day one, I was excited to come here and see if the new firmware was out and that all was right in the 11a world today.

Well, what a disappointment. Sounds like some of you are at your wits end. Can't blame ya, there's no way in heck I would power cycle ANYTHING in my system on a regular basis just to get it to work correctly.

I feel for you all. I hope this all gets resolved sooner than later. Until then I guess I'm going to have to be content with my tried and true Lex.

Chris

Well todays reading / music session was different. I need to do some more testing but I am pretty sure I know what "solved the problem"

I set the correct speaker distances (I do not believe that solved the problem)

I set all speaker levels to 0.0 from -1.0 (I do not think that solved the problem)

I set the port 3 input to bypass as opposed to DSP (Digital Signal processing) which I think fixed the missing front left speaker since as soon as I turned on the system and started the music (same sequence as always since a PC is doing it all) all speakers were there.

I was also able to invoke various effects while playing DTS encoded music and I was able to turn off and on CES CES 7.1 and hear a difference; playing two track stereo (still coming in over Port 3 optical as LPCM) and CES 7.1 had a large effect, so it is being applied.

I was concerned that placing a port on Bypass would cause all effects, which I assumed were done in the DSP chips, to be voided. I guess that is not the case. A good theory of operation manual would be very helpful.

So my real question is what is the difference between the settings of Bypass and DSP when applied to an analog input. Does anyone know?

That's *really* strange.

so you have analog AND optical connected to port 3? And you selected "analog" as the iput type for port 3?

1) doesn't seem like bypass is bypassing
2) shouldn't be able to bypass a port that's not set to analog input...

-Chris

I will try and be clear. Port 3. Analog input is set to bypass. I am not using analog input, but rather optical input on port 3. What I was trying to point out was that with that change for whatever reason, my FL speaker came up as it should. Maybe it was just this time.

The 7.1 input is a whole other thing and has nothing to do with ports 1-8. The Cary has, according to the RS232 control system, 15 input ports numbered 0-14. 0 is 7.1IN, 1-8 are the obvious, 9 is AM radio, 10 FM radio, 11 HDAM, 12 HDFM, 13 HDMI1 and 14 HDMI2

One of my original questions was does the setting for the analog input (Bypass or DSP) have any effect if the input port is using either the optical or Coaxial connector. It seems that it does not with regard to invoking effects. That sort of makes sense. But my question is what really gets bypassed and when. I did the following two tests

Test 1: Port3, input=Optical, input config=Bypass: source a two channel flac file streamed to the transporter and then to the 11A. With no effect engaged the VFD states Pcm 44.1 kHZ. Invoke CES 7.1 and VFD states CES 7.1 All Stereo and sound field changes for the better (IMHO). Turn off CES 7.1 and engage NEO-6 and the VFD states dts-NEO:6 Cinema. The Dolby PLIIx and surround effects will not engage.

test2: Port 2, input=anlog, input config=Bypass; source an XM radio tuner VFD says Stereo, effects may not be engaged; changing the Port 2 In config to DSP changes the VFD display to PCM 48khz and still no effects may be engaged. There is a noticable difference in the sound fileds, but I suspect it is just volume as opposed to a redistribution of audio, or it could be volume and/or some subtle processing.

The bottom line for me is that I can run all my inputs on Bypass and maybe it clears up the missing FL speaker.

I learned long ago that when something is Broken it generally does not behave as designed and all logical assumptions and understanding about what is taking place may be wrong.

It appears that the consensous opinion is that Bypass/DSP only has meaning if the input is truly 2 channel analog ( or 7.1 analog). I agree with that opinion. It implies that the optical and coaxial inouts can not be bypassed and they must pass through the DSP chips If that is the case, then that choice should not be permitted (optical + Bypass) in the setup menu, (a minor point).

I will run some tests tomorrow to see if the FL speaker failure is absolutely tied to the Bypass/DSP setting for port 3 optical input.

This is what I meant in that I now use the 11a as a preamp only as I can't handle the frustration of what works and doesn't work in or through the DSP mode. I use the XLR inputs on bypass and Input 2 RCA analog bypass. Nothwithstanding the XLR #1 input in bypass mode, if I use analog bypass for the other input I can also press the CES 7.1 button then the surround button to get all speakers working including the subwoofer; however I have my mains now set to full range which seemed to turn on the sub when in DSP CES 7.1 mode after pressing the surround button a couple of times until it said CES 7.1 all channel stereo. If I cross over the main speakers at anything but full range, I don't get a subwoofer output. I now have my sub set-up to integrate with this type of all surround if I want to listen to all channel stereo (center turned way down on music set-up).

Mostly, I just listen to both #1 and #2 inputs in a analog bypass mode with my main speakers and it works like it should. I leave any other function alone so I can enjoy the music and not think about what doesn't work correctly.

For now, DVDs and cable movies in HD are not something I will delve into as it confounds the heck out of me and I like to enjoy my system.

When the next release is out (and I'll have to please ask one of you to send me a copy as I can't for the life of me download and releases from Cary's site....corrupted file error message.......) I'll download it and cross my fingers and see if I have a functional processor also. I hope, as I know you do to, we will and it will all turn out well.

I would love to see Cary add SACD and DVD-Audio native bitstream decoding. I know they have the codec licenses since they have this on their DVD 8 Player.

Marantz and Denon have announced players that include multichannel bistreaming of SACD (and DVD-Audio) along with the Blu-rau HD audio formats.

PCM conversion is not good enough.

C'mon Cary!

whew! OK, I got it.
What you say above I totally agree with. We all have some notion of how bypass *should* work - but your right on the head that our assumptions may be totally wrong. Just look at the often mentioned "bitstream vs PCM" input setting via HDMI!

Thanks for the in depth coverage

When the day arrives...
as someone mentioned, try renaming the file to eliminate all extra punctuation. get rid of the extra point. (".") in 1.03 and try it.

If it still fails, I'm sure one of us can send it to you