Official Cary Cinema 11a/11v Owner's Thread - Page 13

OK, thanks.
This means (to me) that there are problems with the following:
1) Downmixing 7.1 to 5.1 in the Cary
2) Exchange of EDID data between sink and source is either wrong or missing

I did verify with DVDO (Edge) that they do process the E-EDID data from the connected HDMI device. The use the Audio E-EDID from the HDMI device that you have told the Edge to send the Audio to.

If there are no connected audio HDMI output devices, it sends the current source if HDMI connected, an E-EDID representing the maximum S/PDIF capabilities of the TOSLINK connector.

Jason has indicated that he will try and get back to me on what Cary does with E-EDID information transmission. If they are HDMI 1.3 compliant as an audio sink they must send something back, the real question is whether trhey send maximum capability (configuration independent) or specific configuration as entered in the setup of the Cary. The key variable there being speaker configuration. I would suspect (hope) that they do send the true speaker configuration

Thanks.
All my findings indicates that Cary doesn't send the speaker configuration.
In this case my PS3 should not send 7.1 (?)
7.1 should never appear in C11a's display as long as SBR & SBL are set to NO - at least this is sensible to me.

I hope the Edge is doing things correctly.
A few times lately, my screen goes greenish (just noise) and LED is green.
Also, when I change input on my C11a, the picture disappears for a moment, still if my TV is connected to the Edge directly (not via C11a that is connected to the HDMI Audio only port). I guess the reason is that it need to lip-sync audio & video, and therefore it needs to go blank for a short moment.

I am very surprised if the Cary does not send speaker configuration, but I would not doubt it. Speaker configuration become a valid E-EDID data enhancement with revision B of the 861 spec. If the Cary logic or chip sets in use are 861A based then the speaker data block is probably not sent.

Your tests seem to indicate that it doesn't but perhaps the PS3 is not listening to what it is told. One needs some good test gear to see what is happening, however that gear is very expensive, about the same price as the Cary.

If the Edge LED goes green, that indicates that the input signal is detected but it can not be locked onto as it is somehow out of the Edge's range or specified set.

According to my Edge Contact the only thing that should cause the video to drop when you change Cary Inputs is that the changing of the Cary input may require an HDCP handshake which may/probably drop video. The person I am talking to is high up in the the Edge Technical chain so he is generally accurate as he does know the Edge very well. Whenever a sink is changed one could logically infer that an HDCP handshake is required, bu I do not see why that need be the case for an Audio only sink.

you should be able to read the E-EDID with software such as Monitor Asset Manager (same people as powerstrip):
http://entechtaiwan.com/util/moninfo.shtm

if you have a DVI/HDMI PC this should at least let you see what the Cary is advertising.

To further debug what is transferred between PS3 & 11a, to see if transmission is OK would indeed require further equipment & more time an effort than any owner should be spending on debug. Though it isn't insanely expensive... DDC as implemented in DVI/HDMI is an I2C serial "two-wire" bus so such tools as this would work: http://www.saleae.com/logic/ or http://www.totalphase.com/products/beagle_ism/

but I certainly don't plan to do that
Curious though what Monitor asset manager would report...

Unfortunately the MonInfo (monitor Assett Manager) program does not appear to report the audio data, Although I did not look at the raw response to see if it was there. I will do that tomorrow.

The other two tools would require probe like connections to the Cary to pick up the i2C bus. Not ready to do that.

Further investigation at the entech support forms seems to indicate that the Moninfo program does support audio E-EDID data. I obviously need to play around some more.

I am running an intel based MB with dual graphics controllers on the MB. One controller is VGA out and I use that as the PC's main screen (screen 1). The other controller drives a DVI output connector and I am using that to drive the EDGE over an DVI-HDMI. The second monitor (screen 2) is configured as an extended desktop to the right of screen 1, This makes sending it graphics (slide shows, DVD Library, etc. simple. The Edge then drives the PJ and the Cary. I might have to switch things around to do some testing so it might have to wait until the weekend. It will be interesting.

agreed. a bit extreme if you aren't Cary


This is what I had thought. I plan to try it this weekend from my laptop if I can set aside some time...

I put my 5-channel amp back in for now, and plan to go back to v1.03. I had downgraded to 1.02 but forgot how bad the multi-second lock on delay was. Hopefully I'll also have a chance to try your superduper barrygordon 11a setup software.

Not much else to do with my system until Cary get's us a 1.04. (or until Oppo releases their BDP

-Chris

Actually Edge displays it has a HDCP problem when using PS3 (but not my BD player). The footer message from Edge appears for just a few seconds but everything works. It should do, because all my components are HDCP compliant.

I also agree with your comment on the audio only port of the Edge. It is strange that the direct video link is broken.

I have a friend of mine that owns a HD surround receiver at the fraction of the cost of my equipment. It works flawlessly every time, and he just laughs everytime I do a demo for him because I always runs into trouble of some kind. I keep asking myself why I bother taking this pain, day in and day out.....

Interesting reading, the post above.
Here is my contribution: http://www.quantumdata.com/products/...deo_HT180.html
Price is around 1100 GBP.
I would expect that Cary uses a similar device.
If they don't I would highly advice them to get hold of one prior to next firmware release.

I received my new Cary Cinema 11a this week. My new unit shipped with FW 1.03. I'm using a DVDO Edge to switch sources and process video; I've connected the Edge audio only HDMI output to the HDMI1 input on the Cary.

It's been a fun couple of days doing setup and exploring the Cary's quirks.

First of all, the sound is just terrific. For me, this is an upgrade from an Outlaw 990 - and an UPgrade it is indeed.

The only operational quirk which I find irritating is the slow, sputtering signal lock that occurs when I jump forward or backward on my Dish DVR. I've tried both the Bitstream and LPCM settings on the HDMI input - the problems seems about the same on either setting.

The auto setup feature produced the most bizarre results, so all calibration has been done manually. I have a question for you experts... I would like to manually calibrate the equalization. Test tones covering a range of frequencies will be needed in each channel. Can anyone recommend a source which can be used for this?

-Brent

Welcome!

I think the outlaw is similar to my old Rotel, and the 11a is a good upgrade in sound.

Right now is seems most of Cary's issue's revolve around detecting signal and locking correctly. Hopefully this is resolved soon.

For test tones, the Avia and DVE tests discs are good (DVD or BD)
see this post:

Just upgraded my 11a (again) to v1.03. Couldn't stand 1.02...
Another smooth update. Highly recommend making an outline of notes for the required steps.

Barry, I tried out your RS232 configuration utility. Very handy indeed.
Anyone who hasn't tried it, you can find it on his web page which is linked from his user profile Under 'contact'.

couple of notes though (on Barry's user interface screen):
- it looks like "Music" and "Movie" mode buttons are reversed. Noticed them swapped when I looked at the 11a menu's.
- I saw no setting for the master volume level (introduced in 1.03) -no big deal
Thanks for the great utility!

Agree, but still hope future versions will include a 'read current setup' so we won't need to punch everything in manually when doing SW upgrades and factory resets. Probably too much to ask, though.....

This requires some more explainations....


You need to set it in the Advanced Menu. It works fine.

both of my "couple of notes" only referred to Barry's utility. No issue with the Cary. (I'll edit that for clarity)

Sorry to hear it. You'll have to let us know what the new piece is, and how it compares to the Cary (besides bugs)

I'm willing -for now- to be patient for two big reasons:
- my wife would not look kindly on anything much more expensive - though she wouldn't at all be surprised at the swap...

and just as important:
- everything else I've seen for 2x or 3x the cost of the 11a doesn't seem to be as good, or at least does not promise any better at audio. I'd be paying the extra premium for what I'm sure is a superb video section that I don't want, and wouldn't use. (7-ch analog pre's look tempting as well, but not so practical)

I do admit though that patience only goes so far, and I too may eventually give up for something that just works, even if it is not precisely what I had hoped for.

Again, hope to hear your how your experience turns out. You may not be the last...

Sorry to hear this, Adidino. I thought the captain was the last person to abandon the ship (?)
It requires respect to really go for it (and put some force on Cary, that observes that people now starts to leave them).
Just the fact that you don't need to come on this tread every so often just to check if a new release has arrived must be a relief (not that it is hostile in here, but it is time consuming). Since you have already sold it (and maybe committed yourself to another unit), I guess there is little chance of a comeback.
Anyway, thanks at least for your dedicated contribution in here this far, and good luck with your other unit. Please feel free to PM me your experiences. Maybe I am the next mice in line....
Having said this, I am committed to hold on for a little longer, since I estimated within Q2 for all the fixes (inclusive of the HDMI ones).

I can appreciate the decision Tony ; especially considering what you were told about the new firmwares arrival time ; how hard is it to keep the point man in the loop so to speak

Good luck with the replacement ; and its allways good to converse on mutual interests

Is there a new ETA or is it just the lack of ETA that is of a concern?

Eclectic2K and any others using my Setup Utility:

I just put a revised version on my web site (www.the-gordons.net). It has better diagnostics, I believe the Music/Movie mode confusion is fixed, and I have added the code for Advanced setting for Master Volume and the reading of values from the Cinema11a.

Unfortunately the Cary does not yet have the capability for those two features in their firmware, but it has been requested...

If you switch to the new version, you will not be able to use any of the prior configurations you have saved. If this is a major issue let me know and I will write a quick converter.

Also when doing the installtion make sure the prior Cinema11A.DAT file located in the same directory as the application is deleted. That will cause the program to reinitialize the saved data to a default condition.

If before you load the new version you request a print file from the prior version, then you will have all of the prior values for all of the parameters except master volume obviously.

Thanks!

I was afraid that might be the case. (no biggie) I was even beginning to wonder if the music/movie swap was their issue in the RS232 command set. Thanks for fixing it!

Eclectic2K, When you get a chance just let me know if it is fixed (Movie vs music). I am pretty sure it is, but have not tried it (yet).

I think the length of time it is taking to come out with a new software release to fix all outstanding issues is indicative of just how problematic the 11a is. I'm rapidly loosing patience also. Something from Jason/Cary on where they stand at this point would be very helpful in calming those who have bought this unit predicated on not just its sound but its functionality.

My patience runs out at mid May. If a software fix hasn't been released by then, I will sell the unit and consider the '11b' presuming it is functional by the time it is released.

I'm very suprised the magazines and such haven't picked up on how problematic this unit is currently.

Nick, I don't think the magazines have got one for review yet. I believe Cary retained the unit that was supposed to go to Kal Rubinson for review. The intention was to review it in Stereophile in April the way I understand it. The CustomRetailer I consider more or less a pathetic joke, cause they base it's verdict on previous experiences with Cary and not the object in question. Also, I think their deadline for the award meant official relase of product by mid september 08. Anyway, I can live with that. What I also want to see is a review stating that it is us on AVS that have a problem and not the C11a

Jolly good, Barry. I will test it. If I understand you correctly, the C11a is unable to send its current configuration back through your Interface - is that correct?

Did the same last week, 11a going back to my dealer. Don't have the patience that most of you have...
Good luck.

I think it is not so much "how problematic" - I suspect (hope!) the hardware is OK. I think it is How prematurely they rushed to market.

I think May would be as long as I could wait. That's already 6 months. I wish I had simply waited to buy it, but it is still the only processor I want right now, so I'm in no hurry. (though keeping an eye out, new processors are released each day it seems )

They don't really care. It may be a footnote when they finally do review the 11a, but they have plenty of other things to keep them busy. (and I'm sure this is not the worst set of issues they've ever seen)

I don't think a 10 months delay for the C11a is premature
I also remember Cary stated that they should test it thoroughly before releasing it to the market. I don't think they had foreseen anything like the experiences have shown and planned for it accordingly. I think their competitors are really happy that Cary had to take all the bashing, being the forerunner. I am not saying it is easy, but what I am saying is that a HD processor seems to be just too much for Cary to handle. If I am wrong, then show me a fully functional and bugfree C11v, please.....
To be constructive, I hope it will work out well at the end, but I have my doubts to be honest.

PS:
The plastic tape on the C11a display is still not removed, there are no coffea stains on the manual and the carton box is still in my possession.
I reckon I do not need to explain you why.

Extreman, Yes you are correct. Cary did not include in the RS232 protocol the ability to query all of the setup parameters, only the ability to set them. When they did the 1.3 FW update they neglected to put in any command for the Advanced Setting of Master Volume.

With my Theater setup I do not use a default Master Volume since I store the volume of every input component as it was left when that source was last the active input, and restore that volume when I go back to that source.