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The Official Panasonic 12G Settings/Issues Thread - Page 138

post #4111 of 4414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raygun33 View Post

Hello,

I have a G10 mfr. March 2009. Is it normal for image retention to occur after only 10-15 seconds? I've just been noticing this recently.

For example, if I have the TV turned on with no input source, and bring up the menu for 10-15 seconds I can see an after image. If I leave it up for 25 seconds or so, it's apparent enough that I can read it.

It's very distracting while I'm playing a game or watching something that fades to total black often. I read through 50 pages of this thread looking for a similar post. This is really worrying me now so I would like to ask if this is normal or not.

Thank you.

It is normal, and especially once your set's black levels have risen. I assume the higher MLL makes the IR easier to see. Fortunately it's easy to get rid of (scrolling bar, full screen moving content for a few minutes).
post #4112 of 4414
Quote:
Originally Posted by diabolik74 View Post

Dear Make73,

I am Italian and my name is Julius...

Hi Julius
If I remember right I think you asked that earlier or maby that was someone else Italian...
There may be, and I´m fairly sure that there´s differences between European and USA models so without any measuring data best advice I can give is heading here and buy own calorimeter and do calibration by yourself since there´s not any calibration data for european X-model...anyhow I couldn´t find any.
post #4113 of 4414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Brad View Post

Here are my settings this far. Took me a bit longer than expected but the results are excellent in my opinion. Gamma is perfect at 2.22. The bottom end, particularly 10 and 20 IRE, can’t really be adjusted because the settings end up throwing everything in between 30 and 80 off. Pretty happy with the results, though. There is a noticeable improvement in not only colors but also native contrast ratio. Black level is still rocking solid at .010-.012 ftL.

Anyway, here are my offsets for the Panasonic 50S14:

[snip]

Brad,

Your grayscale looks fine. You many want to drop GDRV a tick or so and raise RDRV a few ticks. You'll have to adjust your CUTs after but probably only needing to drop RCUT by one tick. You really don't have to do anything though -- it is that good.

Do a run with the primary and secondary colors. I'd like to see the CIE chart.

Also, there appears to be a little clipping in the gamma red. You may want to take another run with the Contrast set for say 26ftL.

Larry
post #4114 of 4414
So now that I've taken the D.I.Y. calibration plunge, I am wondering how to calibrate different picture modes. Judging by how changing RGB drv and cut settings affects all picture modes in the SM, I'm guessing there's no way to do it. I know you can calibrate for different color temps, but that doesn't help me as I only use warm.

I don't only use THX. I use custom and sometimes standard mode depending on what I'm watching. So how do you guys handle this?
post #4115 of 4414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meteor|WAR View Post

So now that I've taken the D.I.Y. calibration plunge, I am wondering how to calibrate different picture modes. Judging by how changing RGB drv and cut settings affects all picture modes in the SM, I'm guessing there's no way to do it. I know you can calibrate for different color temps, but that doesn't help me as I only use warm.

I don't only use THX. I use custom and sometimes standard mode depending on what I'm watching. So how do you guys handle this?


Meteor.

Changes made to a color temperature are global for all picture modes. If you want a different color temperature, change Cool or Normal to be what ever you want.

WRT your calibration: I am astounded at how good the grayscale was before your calibration -- delta E essentially below 4 from 10 to 100%!

It would be nice to see the before/after CIE charts. That will require runs with the primary and secondary colors.

Your gamma is a bit low but not really that bad. I wouldn't get too hung up about it. Does the G10 model have a pro menu with a gamma control? There are so many models that it's hard to keep track.

Larry
post #4116 of 4414
No gamma comtrol on the g10.
post #4117 of 4414
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

Meteor.

Changes made to a color temperature are global for all picture modes. If you want a different color temperature, change Cool or Normal to be what ever you want.

WRT your calibration: I am astounded at how good the grayscale was before your calibration -- delta E essentially below 4 from 10 to 100%!

It would be nice to see the before/after CIE charts. That will require runs with the primary and secondary colors.

Your gamma is a bit low but not really that bad. I wouldn't get too hung up about it. Does the G10 model have a pro menu with a gamma control? There are so many models that it's hard to keep track.

Larry

Damn. So it's true then, my only option to separately calibrate picture modes is to use normal or *shudders* cool color temp. Oh well. I suppose though if I adjust the RGB drvs and cuts enough I could get cool and normal to essentially be 'warm', correct? If not maybe I will just see how close I can get custom mode to D65 from just tweaking user menu settings.

Yes! My initial gray scale reading before any changes was indeed surprisingly close to D65. I guess we owe that to the THX fix, or just THX mode in general. Larry, you should be envious of a Panny with THX mode. It really is something.

I am going to next at least attempt to get the gamma closer to 2.2 but after that I will be measuring primaries and secondaries. I know the limitations of the G10's controls (lack of CMS) will limit what I can do but I will try none the less and post my readings.

Thanks for the feedback!
post #4118 of 4414
Meteor, if you change the cuts/drvs in cool and normal they become warm.

Basically if you set the normal/cool values to the default warm values you get 3 warm modes. You can then tweak "cool" for custom, "normal" for standard and "warm" for THX if you want to calibrate for different picture modes.
post #4119 of 4414
Quote:
Originally Posted by slosvt View Post

Meteor, if you change the cuts/drvs in cool and normal they become warm.

Basically if you set the normal/cool values to the default warm values you get 3 warm modes. You can then tweak "cool" for custom, "normal" for standard and "warm" for THX if you want to calibrate for different picture modes.

I suspected as much but wasn't sure. Thanks for confirming. That is great and solves my problem.
post #4120 of 4414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meteor|WAR View Post

Damn. So it's true then, my only option to separately calibrate picture modes is to use normal or *shudders* cool color temp. Oh well. I suppose though if I adjust the RGB drvs and cuts enough I could get cool and normal to essentially be 'warm', correct? If not maybe I will just see how close I can get custom mode to D65 from just tweaking user menu settings.

Yes! My initial gray scale reading before any changes was indeed surprisingly close to D65. I guess we owe that to the THX fix, or just THX mode in general. Larry, you should be envious of a Panny with THX mode. It really is something.

I am going to next at least attempt to get the gamma closer to 2.2 but after that I will be measuring primaries and secondaries. I know the limitations of the G10's controls (lack of CMS) will limit what I can do but I will try none the less and post my readings.

Thanks for the feedback!


What Slosvt said plus:

I think that you are still having trouble grasping the color temp/picture mode concept. For each picture mode, you can associate any color temperature. They do not interact.

If you calibrate a color temperature to track at D65 and if you use that color temperature for any picture mode, that mode will display a D65 color temperature.

For example, if you calibrate the Cool temperature to be 6500K then it will be the same as the Warm 2 that you already did. In fact, you can copy the absolute hex values that you obtained in your Warm calibration to the Cool temperature and Cool will now be Warm.

Larry
post #4121 of 4414
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

What Slosvt said plus:

I think that you are still having trouble grasping the color temp/picture mode concept. For each picture mode, you can associate any color temperature. They do not interact.

If you calibrate a color temperature to track at D65 and if you use that color temperature for any picture mode, that mode will display a D65 color temperature.

For example, if you calibrate the Cool temperature to be 6500K then it will be the same as the Warm 2 that you already did. In fact, you can copy the absolute hex values that you obtained in your Warm calibration to the Cool temperature and Cool will now be Warm.

Larry

I understand that I can use my now properly gray scale calibrated warm color temp for any picture mode, but aren't the picture modes themselves distinctly visually different from each other?

I don't know (or understand) the science behind the tech but for example if I set all user menu picture settings exactly the same for all picture modes they will still all look different from each other. Doesn't this mean I would still need to calibrate each picture mode independently?
post #4122 of 4414
Yes you need to calibrate each mode independently, but the color temp you use for the mode does not matter. Just remember what temp use for each mode you calibrate.
post #4123 of 4414
Thanks for advice guys I appreciate it and it really helps.
post #4124 of 4414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meteor|WAR View Post

It is normal, and especially once your set's black levels have risen. I assume the higher MLL makes the IR easier to see. Fortunately it's easy to get rid of (scrolling bar, full screen moving content for a few minutes).

Thanks for your response and for the ones made by others.

I have noticed that the black levels have risen, so there may be a correlation. It's easy to remove, but the very quick image retention still takes away from many fade-to-blacks. If it's because of the higher MLL, this won't cause a higher chance of an image being permanently 'burned/retained,' right? I've become incredibly paranoid about it (first plasma).

The difference a couple of weeks can make is incredible heh. I just hope this doesn't continually worsen or take another jump in the future. It's a bit disappointing.

On a happier note, I found out that my THX mode was faulty from reading this site and flashed my set with the fix. That viewing mode went from almost unwatchable to something I really enjoy. I've been watching a bunch of movies just to see them in this mode.
post #4125 of 4414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raygun33 View Post

Thanks for your response and for the ones made by others.

I have noticed that the black levels have risen, so there may be a correlation. It's easy to remove, but the very quick image retention still takes away from many fade-to-blacks. If it's because of the higher MLL, this won't cause a higher chance of an image being permanently 'burned/retained,' right? I've become incredibly paranoid about it (first plasma).

The difference a couple of weeks can make is incredible heh. I just hope this doesn't continually worsen or take another jump in the future. It's a bit disappointing.

On a happier note, I found out that my THX mode was faulty from reading this site and flashed my set with the fix. That viewing mode went from almost unwatchable to something I really enjoy. I've been watching a bunch of movies just to see them in this mode.

To be honest I would not even be concerned with burn in. It is really, really hard to do with the new plasmas. You literally have to abuse your panel for days and days without changing the same static image for even the chance of it to happen.

And I dont believe the raised MLL will make the chance of burn in greater. The IR you're seeing was probably always there, just harder to see before the raise. This is my speculation anyhow.
post #4126 of 4414
I just had my panel replaced on my p50s1. Prior to replacing it I had made some SM adjustments that I got from the Pxxs1 owners thread. Figuring that replacing the panel would change the factory SM values, I did not bother to change the setting s back to factory before the replacement. Now that the set has been fixed I have found that the SM values have not changed (they still reflect the changed values from the old panel). My question for you all is: Does this mean that my new panel is already calibrated? or does it mean that the "default settings" are now the altered settings from before (thus implying that I need to re-enter the offsets and re-calibrate the set from their current position). I hope this is clear and not entirely confusing.

Please, any advice or thoughts on the matter would be most appreciated.
post #4127 of 4414
awatts1984,

I just answered your question in the other thread. There is no need to cross post.

Larry
post #4128 of 4414
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post

awatts1984,

I just answered your question in the other thread. There is no need to cross post.

Larry

Sorry Larry. He did so at my suggestion. I thought you might have been on vacation.
post #4129 of 4414
Quote:
Originally Posted by adrman View Post

Sorry Larry. He did so at my suggestion. I thought you might have been on vacation.


Funny! Vacation, no. But they do let me go outside sometime. Supervised, of course.

Larry
post #4130 of 4414
Quote:
Originally Posted by LarryInRI View Post
It would be nice to see the before/after CIE charts. That will require runs with the primary and secondary colors.
Measured the primary and secondaries for THX mode. All colors were under 5 DeltaE except magenta which was 10.2.

I did the best I could without a CMS, just adjusting color/tint controls to get as close to the HDTV - REC 709 targets for the colors as I could before measuring, but I didn't go back and mess with anymore after since I already knew they were as close to the targets as I could get them. The TV just plain needs a CMS to do any better with that.

I attached my .chc file and here's a screen of the CIE diagram:


LL

 

Primaries-Secondaries_Measure.zip 1.1474609375k . file
post #4131 of 4414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meteor|WAR View Post

Measured the primary and secondaries for THX mode. All colors were under 5 DeltaE except magenta which was 10.2.

I did the best I could without a CMS, just adjusting color/tint controls to get as close to the HDTV - REC 709 targets for the colors as I could before measuring, but I didn't go back and mess with anymore after since I already knew they were as close to the targets as I could get them. The TV just plain needs a CMS to do any better with that.

[snip]


Man, I hate looking at these THX color points. They are soooo good.

Don't try to get the primaries any better. Probably you won't be able to anyway. On the other hand, the secondaries will change with the Tint control and you should be able to get the magenta a bit better -- of course with a slight trade-off with cyan and yellow.

Larry
post #4132 of 4414
Hi guys...my first post... great forum!

I've been reading here for awhile in anticpation of calibrating my new50x10. Using the AVSHD (great disk- thanks!) and HCFR, I was able to nail the gray scale, but in Cinema mode I can't get my 100% ftL to anything above 24, even with contrast set to 100!

I was trying to target around 30, but no deal, unless I use "standard" or "custom". I hav'nt messed with the custom cal. yet, but did try a full cal in standard- got good grey scale and good 100% ftL (31ftL and could get more!), but the gamma curve is way off.

So, I can't balance the low end brightness and the high end contrast to get the gamma to behave in standard, and I can't get a my 100% ftL high enough in cinema.

Any ideas?
post #4133 of 4414
Quote:
Originally Posted by alsavforum View Post

calibrating my new50x10...can't get my 100% ftL to anything above 24, even with contrast set to 100!

50X10, so it´s European model?
Could you post your user menu settings and SM offsets and maby HCFR file?
post #4134 of 4414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Make73 View Post

50X10, so it´s European model?
Could you post your user menu settings and SM offsets and maby HCFR file?

Sorry- typo, it's a 50x1. I'm gonna take another crack at it under darker conditions and will be glad to post my results.

What's amazing is how good the picture looks even though the gamma is so bad!
post #4135 of 4414
Since I posted my calibration results I thought I'd make a post with all my current settings of picture modes I use for anyone that's interested.

TC-P46G10 (May 2009 build)
FW 1.29 (THX fix installed)

Input5 HDMI2 THX (PS3/Blu-Ray):

contrast 100
brightness 68
color 45
tint 0
sharpness 0
color temp warm2
everything "off"
black level Light
HD size 2 (locked)

Input 4 HDMI1 Custom (Directv):

contrast 70
brightness 66
color 33
tint 0
sharpness 0
color temp normal
everything "off"
black level Light
HD size 1

OFFSETS:

WARM (THX mode warm2)

(original) (offset) (new)
RC 80 (0) n/a
GC 80 (0) n/a
BC 80 (-1) 7F
RD FC (-2) FA
GD F4 (0) n/a
BD 9D (+35) C0


NORMAL (custom mode)

(original) (offset) (new)
RC 80 (0) n/a
GC 80 (0) n/a
BC 80 (-4) 7C
RD F4 (+9) FD
GD FC (0) n/a
BD D7 (-13) CA


I still may play with tint to see if I can correct the magenta with is 10.2 DeltaE. Aside from that I think I am done for now.

I ended up changing RGB drv and cut settings for both the warm and normal color temps so as to separately calibrate custom and THX modes. Worked great and real happy with the results. HCFR still tells me my gamma is off but whenever I adjust brightness to get it to measure 2.2 the picture just looks too dark to me so I'm not going to stress about the lower gamma.

Color accuracy is noticeably improved. HD looks amazing but I am still getting used to it for SD. Colors look much more bland. I just copied the same offsets for HD to SD. I'm sure it's just a matter of getting used to it. We're all so accustomed to these vibrant unnatural colors it's almost shocking when you see true color accuracy on a tv.

I re-attached my .chc files so as all the info is in this one post.

 

HCFR Cal Reports.zip 2.6708984375k . file
post #4136 of 4414
Quote:
Originally Posted by alsavforum View Post
Sorry- typo, it's a 50x1. I'm gonna take another crack at it under darker conditions and will be glad to post my results.

What's amazing is how good the picture looks even though the gamma is so bad!
OK so here's two HFCR files: One, I finally got a resonable Gamma in CInema mode, but at a reduced ftL.

The other in standard mode, but I still can't tame the Gamma.

Ironically, the one with the bad Gamma looks so much better ! THe other looks somewhat dim as slightly washed out.

Has anyone got a good gamma with >30 ftL on a 50x1? In D-Nice's post he didn't list his- unless I missed it.

Attachment 169273

 

HCFR files.zip 5.8486328125k . file
post #4137 of 4414
Quote:
Originally Posted by alsavforum View Post

OK so here's two HFCR files: One, I finally got a resonable Gamma in CInema mode, but at a reduced ftL.

The other in standard mode, but I still can't tame the Gamma.

Ironically, the one with the bad Gamma looks so much better ! THe other looks somewhat dim as slightly washed out.

Has anyone got a good gamma with >30 ftL on a 50x1? In D-Nice's post he didn't list his- unless I missed it.


D-Nice obtained 32.5 ftL in Cinema mode on his 42X1. He got an average gamma of 2.16 -- flat. His report in post #2 shows this data.

I obtained a flat gamma of 2.12 on my 50X1. My report is linked in my signature.

Larry
post #4138 of 4414
Quote:
Originally Posted by alsavforum View Post

OK so here's two HFCR files: One, I finally got a resonable Gamma in CInema mode, but at a reduced ftL.

The other in standard mode, but I still can't tame the Gamma.

Ironically, the one with the bad Gamma looks so much better ! THe other looks somewhat dim as slightly washed out.

Has anyone got a good gamma with >30 ftL on a 50x1? In D-Nice's post he didn't list his- unless I missed it.

Attachment 169273

I just had the exact same issue, see my recent posts in this thread.

In THX mode my G10 does 2.08 gamma (about 29 ftL) when I use the AVS HD 709 to set brightness but looks really good. I get the proper 2.2 gamma if I use the method described here but it looks too dim/lifeless:

Quote:


* Set the contrast as in the previous section and record the Y value (light output) on the 100 IRE window pattern.
* Display the 10 IRE window pattern.
* Adjust the brightness so that the Y reading of the 10 IRE window pattern measures as close as possible to 0.65% of the Y reading of the 100 IRE white pattern. For example: At 100 IRE we measured a Y value of 47.387. 0.65% of this is 47.387 x 0.0065, or a Y value of 0.308. We would therefore adjust the brightness until the Y value reads 0.308.
* This sets your gamma at 2.2 for the the 10 IRE window pattern which is typically the perfect gamma value as explained previously. In most cases this will be the correct setting for brightness. If your display has an unusually high or low gamma or a non-linear gamma, this method may give you the wrong result such that you can't see the 2% or 4% PLUGE bars (black clipping) or the black background is far too grey. In that case, adjust the brightness setting using the traditional method described previously using the PLUGE pattern.

I concluded to say the hell with 2.2 gamma. It just doesn't look right on my G10. I think with some TV's you're better off just setting brightness with a pluge pattern.
post #4139 of 4414
Quote:
Originally Posted by Meteor|WAR View Post

I just had the exact same issue, see my recent posts in this thread.

In THX mode my G10 does 2.08 gamma (about 29 ftL) when I use the AVS HD 709 to set brightness but looks really good. I get the proper 2.2 gamma if I use the method described here but it looks too dim/lifeless:



I concluded to say the hell with 2.2 gamma. It just doesn't look right on my G10. I think with some TV's you're better off just setting brightness with a pluge pattern.


Using the 0.65% method to set brightness only works if the gamma of your TV is 2.22 to start with. It doesn't work in reverse. Use the pluge method.

Larry
post #4140 of 4414
Seems that USA models Cinema-mode and THX-mode limits max power of light to something around 30ftL.
SUB-BRT anything to do with this?

I think that calculating brightness or contrast is not a good option, better is measuring with HCFR´s near black and near white tests and also visual checking grayscale ramp or pluge so there´s not clipped blacks or whites at 16-235 area.

alsavforum,

I think you should check your basic settings at first, brightness and contrast.
Seems that at least brightness is too high because your black level is 0.040ftL at cinema mode.
Also some finetuning with RGB levels could be done, I would lower B-DRV at first.
(Zoom RGB page with right mouse button Scale-->RGB--> to 80-120% so it´s easier to see)
If you measure whole grayscale 0-100 at everytime it´s easier to notice how those SM adjustments affect to whole RGB area, not just 80/30IRE.
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