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Pioneer KRP Shipments and Damage Tracking Thread - Page 10

post #271 of 1854
Quote:
Originally Posted by blb1215 View Post

It is also important to ask and know the vendors policy before you purchase. It seems there are many very good authorized dealers who allow a 24 to 48 hour period even after signing to return if damage is found. I know Coza has this policy as well as a 14 days return policy other defects.

Barry

Cracked glass isn't a defect. Why don't you ask Coza about their policy of a cracked glass panel after the shipper has left and you did not place "subject to inspection" beside your signature?
post #272 of 1854
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Cracked glass isn't a defect. Why don't you ask Coza about their policy of a cracked glass panel after the shipper has left and you did not place "subject to inspection" beside your signature?

When I placed an order he said I only needed to inspect box for damage, and I had 24 hrs to do full inspection.

Barry
post #273 of 1854
Quote:
Originally Posted by blb1215 View Post

When I placed an order he said I only needed to inspect box for damage, and I had 24 hrs to do full inspection.

Barry

Yep, Coza had a case where this happened. The delivery was made when the customer wasn't home and the person who was there signed for it without knowing to inspect first. When the customer got home and found the panel cracked he called Coza ASAP....they replaced the panel, no charge to the customer.
post #274 of 1854
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

Everyone needs to remember to ALWAYS put "subject to inspection" beside their signature REGARDLESS if you inspect the panel, power it on, or do anything else before and/or after the driver leaves.

Thanks for that advice. I will indeed write that when the replacement comes. However, what I think should be the benchmark here is what a reasonable person should be expected to do. My guess is that if you ask a driver how often people write things like that, or how often they ask the driver to wait while a TV is unboxed, they will say it's unusual.
post #275 of 1854
D Nice brought up a great point though; subject to inspection. that way, it is on the receipt, and the shipping company can't get away with that. When I first unboxed my tv, I only got a chance to inspect the glass, but never a chance to power it up, and when I didn't find the standy button at first, and the panel would not power on, I was like, "I am screwed. this is a DOA unit" so that is a great tip that D nice showed us, always put something like "subject to inspection" when you are signing for these delicate panels.

FWIW, I don't think that my dealer insured my panel, of course, this is strictly speculation. but you guys have no idea how mean my carrier driver was to me....sometimes you get a good driver, sometimes you get a bad one.
post #276 of 1854
Quote:
Originally Posted by woody888 View Post

D Nice brought up a great point though; subject to inspection. that way, it is on the receipt, and the shipping company can't get away with that.

As I said, I will write this next time. Actually, I'll unbox it, inspect it with a flashlight, maybe plug it in (I'm not sure how feasible that is with the bottom in styrofoam, given the location of the power switch), and then write "subject to final inspection" on the receipt.

However, I'll reiterate something here which is relevant. When talking to the shipping carrier rep, he said that even if I had not signed for it, they would be unlikely to pay, since they wouldn't know at what point the damage occurred. In other words, it could have already been damaged when they took possession.

Maybe this varies by carrier. Robert said he had used this carrier for about a year, and this was the first time he had dealt with this situation. He said he was surprised at the response we got during that conference call. He also said he had a cracked 150 last year, and that his previous shipping carrier paid for it.
post #277 of 1854
Quote:
Originally Posted by eelton View Post


However, I'll reiterate something here which is relevant. When talking to the shipping carrier rep, he said that even if I had not signed for it, they would be unlikely to pay, since they wouldn't know at what point the damage occurred.

If you did not sign for it, you would not be responsible at all.

Barry
post #278 of 1854
Quote:
Originally Posted by eelton View Post

Thanks for that advice. I will indeed write that when the replacement comes. However, what I think should be the benchmark here is what a reasonable person should be expected to do. My guess is that if you ask a driver how often people write things like that, or how often they ask the driver to wait while a TV is unboxed, they will say it's unusual.

I agree with you that you should not have to pay anything for a replacement (good busniess practice... especially on AVS). However, it is very important to write "subject to inspection" on the receipt because the reality is the shipper is off the liability hook without that note by your signature. If you did not know this, I empathize with you. However, it has been advised on AVS for years.
post #279 of 1854
Quote:
Originally Posted by D-Nice View Post

I agree with you that you should not have to pay anything for a replacement (good busniess practice... especially on AVS). However, it is very important to write "subject to inspection" on the receipt because the reality is the shipper is off the liability hook without that note by your signature. If you did not know this, I empathize with you. However, it has been advised on AVS for years.

Here is a good list of procedures for dealing with a shipment.

1. Inspect freight BEFORE YOU SIGN. Freight drivers are professionals, however, they have a lot of stops to make and sometimes appear to be in a hurry. The driver must wait for you to complete the inspection. If you have any problems with a driver, notify your seller immediately. You will find his employee identification number at the bottom of your delivery receipt.


2. Count the pieces received against the driver's delivery receipt.


3. Note any discrepancies in writing on the delivery receipt. Be specific: identify or describe the missing item(s).


4. Inspect the freight for visible damages such as holes in boxes, water damage, dents, or anything else and verify the entire contents of the order.


5. Note on the freight bill any obvious damage at the time of delivery (i.e. box corners crushed, tears, rips, marks, etc.) Again, be specific with details and note exactly what is damaged.


6. If you suspect internal damage, OPEN IMMEDIATELY! Even if no damaged goods is suspected, open the carton and make a thorough inspection.


7. If you can not open the packages for inspection for whatever reason or you have any doubts, you MUST sign "SUBJECT TO INSPECTION" next to your signature on the delivery receipt. If you do not, you are liable for any damages and shortages. If any box is damaged beyond repair, please refuse the damaged box.


9. If the driver does not want to wait, sign the delivery receipt with the notation SUBJECT TO INSPECTION. DRIVER REFUSES TO WAIT. When you find concealed damage after the driver leaves, the trucking line ordinarily pays only a fraction of the cost of shipping damage. This is why it is important to inspect the contents while the driver is waiting or to include the notation SUBJECT TO INSPECTION. DRIVER REFUSES TO WAIT with your signature on the bill of lading.


10. Overall, it is better to refuse a damaged delivery, then to accept it.
post #280 of 1854
Quote:
Originally Posted by eelton View Post

As I said, I will write this next time. Actually, I'll unbox it, inspect it with a flashlight, maybe plug it in (I'm not sure how feasible that is with the bottom in styrofoam, given the location of the power switch), and then write "subject to final inspection" on the receipt.

However, I'll reiterate something here which is relevant. When talking to the shipping carrier rep, he said that even if I had not signed for it, they would be unlikely to pay, since they wouldn't know at what point the damage occurred. In other words, it could have already been damaged when they took possession.

Maybe this varies by carrier. Robert said he had used this carrier for about a year, and this was the first time he had dealt with this situation. He said he was surprised at the response we got during that conference call. He also said he had a cracked 150 last year, and that his previous shipping carrier paid for it.

plugging it in and powering it up just makes sure there are no cracks you overlook. Just the best chance to protect yourself and make sure you get a working panel.

of course the shipping company is going to claim that, they can also claim you did it after it was out of their hands as well. But that's bulls.....it is their business and Robert paid them a fee/$$$/rate to provide the service. Even if you inspected it found the crack and refused it they still could claim that it wasn't them, if you wrote the "subject to inspection" note, they would still make that claim. It's between Robert and the shipping company he paid.

Robert like other dealers who ship have had his share of cracked panels delivered. Did Robert offer you the "white glove service" where they bring it in and unpack it, it cost more but certainly would have avoided this situation. He had so many 60" panels cracked last year that he was higher priced but that included "white glove service" for the 60" models he shipped.

I know yours was a 50" and if it wasn't shipped "white glove service" Robert should have told you to be ready to inspect it and power it on, that would only makes sense to protect you and him as well.
post #281 of 1854
Quote:
Originally Posted by dssturbo1 View Post

Did Robert offer you the "white glove service" where they bring it in and unpack it, it cost more but certainly would have avoided this situation. He had so many 60" panels cracked last year that he was higher priced but that included "white glove service" for the 60" models he shipped.

I know yours was a 50" and if it wasn't shipped "white glove service" Robert should have told you to be ready to inspect it and power it on, that would only makes sense to protect you and him as well.

I wasn't offered white glove service when I ordered the plasma, which I did by phone. (I was speaking with someone who I believe is his wife.) There was also no discussion about my needing to inspect it on arrival.

A bit of follow-up: I got a reply from Pioneer, saying that if the shipping company refused to pay, I should contact the dealer, who in turn should contact their Pioneer sales representative. That's probably a dead end, but I passed the info along to Robert.
post #282 of 1854
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaffo_botz View Post

I confirmed that even if I had accepted the deliveries, that there is a 24 hour window to see if the unit is broken.

I've noticed that a few people have said they were given 24 (or even 48) hours to report damage. And jfkrane said his carrier paid for the replacement, even though he had signed for the delivery, since he reported it within 24 hours.

Does anyone know whether this varies by carrier, or is this a legal or consumers' rights requirement? I check the shipper's (R&L Carriers) website, but I can't find anything that's relevant.
post #283 of 1854
Quote:
Originally Posted by eelton View Post

I've noticed that a few people have said they were given 24 (or even 48) hours to report damage. And jfkrane said his carrier paid for the replacement, even though he had signed for the delivery, since he reported it within 24 hours.

Does anyone know whether this varies by carrier, or is this a legal or consumers' rights requirement? I check the shipper's (R&L Carriers) website, but I can't find anything that's relevant.

I think the 24 - 48 hours to report damage, may vary between company to company. Maybe having to do with the insurance of the shipment, after 24 - 48 hours of accepting a delivery a claim can no longer be filed.


Here is an artical that may help you,

Sound Law

Defending concealed damage claims

By Henry Seaton

Henry Seaton is a lawyer who represents carriers in contract disputes, collection matters, cargo claims and insurance questions.

E-mail hseaton@eTrucker.com.


Q: My company delivered a load on November 15. The shipment was unloaded by the consignee without incident and the delivery receipt was executed with no notice of damage. More than a month later, the consignee filed a concealed damage claim. Are we liable for this claim under these circumstances?


A: Concealed damages are the most troublesome type of cargo claims. Frequently they are settled for a percentage of their actual value because neither the claimant nor the carrier can prove who was actually at fault or responsible for the loss.

It has often been held that the issuance of a clear bill of lading and notation of damage by the consignee at time of delivery creates a rebuttable presumption under the Carmack Amendment that the carrier is responsible for the damage. The shipper, under this circumstance, does not have to prove negligence or causation, and it is up to the carrier to prove one of the five common law exceptions (act of shipper, act of God, public enemy, public authority or inherent vice of cargo).

In concealed damage situations, however, the shipper does not have the benefit of the presumption that the shipment was damaged in transit. The question of liability becomes far more fact intensive.

For carriers, there is no substitute for immediate inspection and a thorough development of the facts. If the shipment showed no visible signs of damage upon delivery, it may well have been damaged when tendered to the carrier at the outset. Moreover, testimony from your driver to the effect that the shipment rode safely from origin to destination is now relevant since the shipper has lost the benefit of the presumption.

Regardless of when the concealed damage is reported, the claimant has a difficult burden of proving that even though the shipment was accepted without objection, it was damaged when delivered. Moreover, there is an old line of cases — still reflected in the language of some bureau tariffs — that suggest that if a consignee does not notify you within 15 days of delivery, it must prove that the loss or damage was not incurred after delivery.

When inspecting a concealed damage shipment, pay particular attention to the packaging. If the shipping container is now crushed, should not that fact have been readily observable when the shipment was delivered? If, on the other hand, the shipping container is intact, were the contents of the container sufficiently packed to withstand ordinary perils of transportation? Is it just as likely the shipment was damaged before pickup and that the defect was not observable to the driver at that time?

Finally, with respect to concealed damages, it is important to remember that items like used machinery, scientific equipment or electronics can be extremely susceptible to transit damage that is not discovered until the consignee attempts to use the item. Given the high value of such items, carriers should seriously consider released evaluation to limit liabilities and take extra precaution to insure that the product, if used, is fully operational at point of pickup and is adequately inspected and tested in the driver’s presence at time of delivery.

Source: http://www.etrucker.com/apps/news/article.asp?id=19605


Who was the shipping company Value Electronics used if you don't mind my asking?
post #284 of 1854
Thanks, ruktuim. From what I've read online, concealed damage claims are often settled at 33% of value, so Robert should be able to get part of the money back.

It seems that some carriers give a window to discover damage, and some vendors pay for replacements. I find myself without the benefit of either.

(The carrier was R&L Carriers.)
post #285 of 1854
Quote:
Originally Posted by eelton View Post

Thanks, ruktuim. From what I've read online, concealed damage claims are often settled at 33% of value, so Robert should be able to get part of the money back.

It seems that some carriers give a window to discover damage, and some vendors pay for replacements. I find myself without the benefit of either.

(The carrier was R&L Carriers.)

my goodness, eric, I just read about my recent posts. guess who my carrier was? yup, R&L. they are as unfriendly as they come! if you read my posts earlier in this exact thread, you would know how my experience went, even though I got a cracked free panel, the actual delivery experience was less than satisfactory. PM me and somehow I have a feeling that we'd share the same driver, who'd tell you that he has to go, so on and so forth. I feel so bad for you, having to deal with them......
post #286 of 1854
This is the policy of my seller (Satellite and Sound) directly quoted from their website:

"Shipping Damage
When your TV or monitor arrives, you have 24 hours (excluding Saturdays, Sundays, or holidays) to report any shipping damage. It's important to open all cartons to make sure the screen is not cracked and that no other type of damage occurred during shipping. Should there be physical damage to an item due to shipping, we will replace that item for no charge as long as it's reported within 24 hours of delivery. If an accessory is the only part damaged, obviously only the accessory will be replaced. You do NOT need to actually hook up the set within 24 hours to make sure it works. You are only inspecting for physical damage."

In addition, even though I did sign for the TV after doing a visual inspection I did write "SUBJECT TO INSPECTION" on the slip since it was still partially in the box and I had not powered it on. I only thought to do the flashlight inspection after the delivery guy left at which point my heart sank! (Pics of the cracks are posted in the KRP owners thread). Luckily, my seller honored the above policy exactly as promised.

I am truly sorry that you are having such a hard time with this Eric and I still contend that Robert should do right by you. It certainly can't do his company any good to have negative publicity here if he does not resolve this satisfactorily on your behalf.
post #287 of 1854
Quote:
Originally Posted by eelton View Post

I've noticed that a few people have said they were given 24 (or even 48) hours to report damage. And jfkrane said his carrier paid for the replacement, even though he had signed for the delivery, since he reported it within 24 hours.

Does anyone know whether this varies by carrier, or is this a legal or consumers' rights requirement? I check the shipper's (R&L Carriers) website, but I can't find anything that's relevant.

I think u oughta start a file with Pioneer cust svc 8003211404 just in case..i believe they'll go to bat for you in case both the frt line and the dealer flake out on you.
alan
post #288 of 1854
Quote:
Originally Posted by alanl715 View Post

I think u oughta start a file with Pioneer cust svc 8003211404 just in case..i believe they'll go to bat for you in case both the frt line and the dealer flake out on you.
alan

I e-mailed Pioneer the day the 500M came. Actually, I sent two messages--one via the website and then an e-mail after a forum member provided me with an address. The two replies were somewhat different in tone:

The reply to the website inquiry:

Quote:


We made sure products were packaged properly for shipping and must always be standing up right. We would not cover this and it's something you need to take care off through the shipper and the seller.


Thank You,

David
Customer Service Representative


And the response to the e-mail:

Quote:


Thank you for contacting Pioneer Electronics. I am sorry to hear of the problem you encountered with your Plasma TV.

Should a unit be received damaged, the freight company should be contacted immediately, as you did.

If they are not willing to assist, you should contact your dealer, who in return, should contact their Pioneer Sales Representative.



Thank You,

Teresa
Customer Service Representative


I forwarded the second to Robert.
post #289 of 1854
Call your credit card company.
My Amex card provides 90 day accidental damage coverage up to $1000 (plus doubles the warranty up to one year and even refunds your cost if the vendor doesn't allow you to return your purchase). Some cards like Citi Gold limit damage claims to $500. This is why I use my Amex for major purchases. Not the ultimate solution for you but hopefully of some help.

If a vendor opens a carton at his facility weeks/months after receiving it from the manufacturer and it has a cracked panel, will he be reimbursed by either the manufacturer or the shipping company ? Can't imagine the vendor absorbs that hit. Maybe his business insurance covers the damage ?
post #290 of 1854
Quote:
Originally Posted by oohm View Post

Call your credit card company.
My Amex card provides 90 day accidental damage coverage up to $1000 (plus doubles the warranty up to one year and even refunds your cost if the vendor doesn't allow you to return your purchase). Some cards like Citi Gold limit damage claims to $500. This is why I use my Amex for major purchases.

I initially tried to use AmEx, but Value Electronics doesn't accept it. So, I used Visa, although my Visa is actually a debit card. I'm not sure how protections compare, but I haven't wanted to be too adversarial with Robert, who I think feels genuinely bad about this.

I've found this experience truly unnerving. It's not really about the money, but the idea that I'm being blamed (or so it feels) for something out of my control.
post #291 of 1854
Quote:
I've found this experience truly unnerving. It's not really about the money, but the idea that I'm being blamed (or so it feels) for something out of my control.

I'd feel the same way mate.
When a carrier accepts an item for shipping, they are in my mind assuming that it is undamaged as they receive it --- unless they state in writing that they are not responsible for hidden damage. If not, then they shouldn't agree to ship tv's and other fragile items. To collect a fee for shipping an item they know and is clearly labeled as fragile and then refuse a claim for hidden damage is ludicrous. They likely charge a premium to ship fragile items. To use the loop hole that you signed for it may be legal but its unethical on their part given you informed them within 3 hours.

Given that the carrier is hanging onto the position that there is no way to know when the panel was broken (tacitly admitting they may be responsible), the carrier should at least cover all shipping costs to return the damaged set and also refund the original shipping costs. VE should insist on this from their carrier as others are paying for the replacement which the carrier likely caused. For the carrier to point fingers at others and leave you holding the bag is not right.

To help prevent this situation, it should be SOP for all vendors to clearly tell their customers how to inspect their purchase and note as previously said "Received subject to discovery of hidden damage" and "Driver refused to wait for inspection for hidden damage".

I hope the carrier steps up and does the right thing for you. I personally would not pay for another shipment from that carrier after saying they wouldn't cover the damage even if you didn't sign for it. Good luck.
post #292 of 1854
Eric,

Sorry for your ordeal. I would at least check with your bank and find out you rights just in case. You seem to be a decent guy over this, I am not so sure I would be. Bottom line I don't believe you should in any way be held responsible.

This is a battle that should be between the vendor and the shipping company. that is why they have insurance! It is unreasonable to expect the consumer to be responsible IMO.

I also hope VE takes care of you and gets you a new tv out ASAP at no cost to you and battles the shipping company. That really is the right thing to do IMO.

If you do end up getting your bank to credit your account back, shop for vendor who has a more liberal policy.

Barry
post #293 of 1854
Quote:
Originally Posted by eelton View Post

I initially tried to use AmEx, but Value Electronics doesn't accept it. So, I used Visa, although my Visa is actually a debit card. I'm not sure how protections compare, but I haven't wanted to be too adversarial with Robert, who I think feels genuinely bad about this.

I've found this experience truly unnerving. It's not really about the money, but the idea that I'm being blamed (or so it feels) for something out of my control.

If you paid with a debit card it is the same as paying with a check. Your bank has no part in this dilemma.

As a footnote debit cards are for everyones Else's advantage. (vendor and bank) You give up a lot of rights when you use a debit card as opposed to a credit card. I don't even have one. I cut them up when the bank sends me one. You can easily dispute charges on a credit card but it can take months on a debit card. For more reading go to Clark Howard.com
post #294 of 1854
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick46 View Post

If you paid with a debit card it is the same as paying with a check. Your bank has no part in this dilemma.

As a footnote debit cards are for everyones Else's advantage. (vendor and bank) You give up a lot of rights when you use a debit card as opposed to a credit card. I don't even have one. I cut them up when the bank sends me one. You can easily dispute charges on a credit card but it can take months on a debit card. For more reading go to Clark Howard.com

That was my general impression, which is why I only use that card when I have to--i.e., somewhere that doesn't take AmEx.

I don't want to get too far off topic, but I checked with my bank and they said I can indeed dispute a charge on the Visa debit card; they said the process is the same as with a credit card. (I looked at the ClarkHoward.com site you referenced, and a couple of commenters also said their banks allowed disputes to debit card charges.)

I really don't want to go down that path, though. As it stands, the replacement 500M has been shipped. Whether Robert charges the extra $400 to my Visa debit card is up to him. I'll report it to the forum either way.
post #295 of 1854
I'm looking to purchase a 600M and was originally looking for the lowest price, but with all these damaged plasmas I need to choose a company who has the best replacement policy. I hate that it is come to all this, but I'm curious to know the forum's opinon on this matter:

Out of the authorized internet sales list on Pioneer (some are forum sponsors and others are not) who has the best policy to cove me incase I receive a cracked plasma?

Lets first assume I can't or didn't see any cracks upon arrival. I plan on signing with what the people have suggested above, subject to inspection, but in any case I find a cracked plasma once the delivery man has left, who is going to back me up?

I have read policies of a number of places and they vary, but the last thing I need is a company who backs down and doesn't honor their policy. I've read of a couple posts thus far and it seems that Coza and S&S have the best track records. Just curious about some others.

BTW, who represents PlasmaConcepts and Satellite & Sound on this forum?


Any help is appreciated.

Thanks,
Nate
post #296 of 1854
Natettu,

look you have read some of the stories, seen very high percentage of 600M delivered cracked to avsers......

Your spending ~$2900 on a new Pioneer 600M SOOooo, the best policy is to protect yourself.......and it's not that hard to do, just be prepared and have a spot ready to open and unpack it, cut the straps and take the box top off, pretty easy to unpack.....remove the foam wrap and there she is......do a quick check with a flashlight. Get the power cord out of the accessory box and then plug it in and power it up. (remember the main power switch on the rear of the unit) If it powers on then your good to go. If your ready and prepared this should not take very long at all, maybe 10 minutes. good panel, sign for it tip the driver and enjoy.
post #297 of 1854
To update my saga, I received an e-mail from Robert at Value Electronics today saying he would not charge me the $400 to replace my cracked 500M. He had apparently tried to send the e-mail yesterday, but it was returned undeliverable (I have no idea why).

As was apparent from my dealings with him during this time, he was as upset about what had happened as I was, and I don't believe he was trying to take advantage of me or treat me unfairly. It's unfortunate that anyone has to be out the significant cost of a replacement panel here. From my point of view, we're both victims in this--of Pioneer's packaging issues, of some shipper's mishandling (whether R&L Carriers or whoever transported the unit from Pioneer to the dealer), and of R&L's hard-line approach to damage claims.

The reason I chose to buy from Robert was his very positive reputation and the favorable feedback on this forum, which he earned by providing good service over the years. I hope the positive outcome to my situation will give people confidence in dealing with him in the future.
post #298 of 1854
Glad it worked out for you.

Barry
post #299 of 1854
Glad this worked out for you, Eric, and kudos to Robert for doing the right thing.

Hate to see anyone banned from posting and the dealers provide a lot of useful information here. Of course, we are not privy to the details so I'll refrain from further comment on that.
post #300 of 1854
Hey Eric,

just started checking this thread, and glad to know that everything worked out best. I certainly hope Robert is not out of money on this either. it is strange that robert was banned from posting here, talk about bizarre. hope your second panel works out!
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