Pioneer Elite Pro-x10HD Shim Mod How-to with other tweaks - Page 2

IP'ing S via the front panel is easiest for me, input 4. Then use tried and true SD test discs. For me that's AVIA and the original SD VE.

Then go to component for BD or HD DVD.


b

Thanks Bob, what is "BD" and "VD"?

Sorry, just corrected that. BluRay or HD DVD. IOW, 1080i.


b

I plan on doing the shimming mod soon, but I'm still in the research mode since I know what to expect before I get in there.
I assumed that after the shimming process that the 3 lenses would have to be re-focused since their distance to the mirror had changed, but I didn't see this mentioned in the previous write ups.
I found these instruction on how to focusing the lenses, and wondering if this seems like a reasonable approach for Elites?

1. clean and polish the red, green, and blue CRT lenses, and mirror.
2. hook up a DVD player to a Component-input and use the AVIA or DVE calibration disc and go immediately into the video test patterns to find a 100IRE crosshatch pattern and pause it on that pattern
3. cover the TV's viewscreen with a blanket, sheet, tarp, or cardboard to block most or all outside light
4. carefully cover 2 of the 3 CRTs (by habit I cover green and blue) so that their light output is blocked off (it is possible to shut off each CRT in the TV's service menu if you know how)
5. turn the electrostatic focus trim pot of the red CRT back and forth to get the optimal focus of the crosshatch pattern on the inside of the viewscreen
6. loosen (do not remove) the screw, nut, or wingnut of the red CRT and rock it back and forth in its guide slot to its optimal focus on the inside of the viewscreen
7. tighten it firmly and repeat the previous steps on the green and blue CRTs individually
8. power off the TV and let the CRTs cool for a few minutes
9. set up a camcorder on a tripod aimed at the TV screen and record a complete read-only run through of every service menu screen you can find so that you have a record of all settings before starting - occasionally the camcorder and TV's sync rates will differ, so just pause it while you wait half a minute for it to clear) then shut off the camcorder and start your service menu voodoo tweaking
10. go through a complete AVIA or DVE calibration as described on those discs.

The bit about the blanket and covering the viewscreen I assume is for a non pioneer set and they are probabily going in from behind, so this may not apply to the Elites.

Thinking about other tweaks, has anyone upgraded or changed the speakers on their Elite? Last time I had the grill off I thought the speakers looked very small.

Re. post #35:

"Clean and polish" is a sweeping statement. You must be INCREDIBLY careful as to how you do your cleaning process. The lenses are made of plastic and are extremely unforgiving, and the mirror is a front surface mirror, which should not be mixed with ammonia. Neither should the plastic lenses. I also DO NOT recommend the use of microfibre cloths.

Focusing should NEVER be done at full light levels, only at half light levels, which replicate the performance of average video content. The only way you should be using 100 IRE is if you are in the sm and the modes you are in already cut the screen light levels by half.

Calibrations should always be done at the levels you'll be watching your videos at. Everything should match up once you're done.

The mechanical focusing should be done via the Cantilever Technique. There is no better optical focusing method around. And you don't do it from the back.

I like the part about the camcorder. That's a very wise move.



b

I just added some pix to my Don't Dump your CRT RPTV! thread - not your specific brand, but definitely shows what CRT is capable of. Is a Mit, so keep that in mind and enjoy, even if you'd just like to see what YOUR set can look like with the appropriate care and attention -



b

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post17508339

If you don't have a videocam ready, just use your cell phone cam. The owner did that the other night on a Panasonic plasma cal.


b

That really is a good idea.

Yesterday I started my shimming process on my 510 and I think all went ok, but I think I must have missed something in the instructons. I created and installed the 4 blocks approx 2x2 square and 1.5 inches high (made from a 2x4). Powered up the unit and refocused the guns with no problem. Brought up the DVE overscan pattern and see that it's now just under 5% from nearly 10%. The convergence was obviously off. Went into the user convergence screen and I could see how it was off. I adjusted the crosshair convergence then went in to detailed convergence grid. I was surprised at how close the detailed convergence became after adjusting the crosshair convergence. It was pretty good', just the outside 2 vertical rows were visibly off but not really too too much. Did the adjustment and some fine tuning of the convergence and it looks good to me. Played a DVD and all seemed good. So now I'm confused as to what do I need to do in the service menu ?

In user you only get red and blue. In the sm you get all 3 colors.

The shimming op messes quite substantially with the geometry, which is the green. You gotta go in and redo the green so that the outer areas are consistent with the test patterns in terms of the geometry, then reconverge the red and blue on a more permanent basis than the user conv.

The sm conv also allows you to send in your OWN pattern! The user does not, you're stuck with those too hot, too thick grid lines. In the sm you can send in the AVIA grids for SD, and HD DVE grids for HD.

The HD DVE overscan pattern is not just good for measuring overscan, it's also excellent for redoing your geometry. There's also a circlehatch grid on HD DVE that is valuable for convergence, with the lowered light levels that happen automatically in the sm in the conv menu.

I hope you used the Cantilever Technique for your optical focusing. Your electrostatic focusing should not need redoing because of the shimming op, but it's always good to trim it up now and then, watching VERY carefully that you don't reach for any of the Screen trimpots on the Focus Block by mistake.

On this vintage a unit, you gotta watch out for the edges being brighter than the middle on the sides because of the aging footprint when you recenter your red and blue images via the crosshairs, which become uncentered when you add the blocks. If virgin phospors get involved at the side edges by re-aiming the images on the CRT faces, and all of a sudden you notice the left and right edges are showing brighter edges there, you gotta recenter to where you started via the crosshairs on your CRT faces, then recenter the red and blue mechanically instead, by altering the angle at which they hit the screen. Doesn't take much on a 510, but my 73" required that I change the angle by loosening up my outer screws by about 3/4" each on the red and blue, allowing those guns to fall backwards a bit on that side - gotta also loosen up the inner screws on the red and blue guns just a bit, to allow this to happen without breaking the pot metal casings of the CRTs - re-aiming them and thus recentering them mechanically. This kept my images where they were on the CRT face, which preserves the aging footprint and keeps it in place. While still allowing the recentering of the images for correct superimposition of all 3 upon each other, but mechanically rather than electronically.

Since I had no aging footprint at the time I did this on mine, I later went in and improved on how much of my CRT faces actually are in play and seen by the viewscreen. But this is not usually possible on a set with advanced years on it, tho the pix they are capable at that age are still breathtaking -

Doing this op on your set should not only give you substantially more picture to watch out at the edges - as you saw with 5% now rather than the OOB 10% of before - it will also allow you greater resolution because of the increased amount of picture taking up the same amount of space as before, on your viewscreen.

There are copious amounts of info on this at my Don't Dump your CRT RPTV! thread, plus recent screenshots of my fully shimmed set in action. I didn't run them here because this is a Pioneer thread, but you're welcome to see what's possible with your set, which is also CRT RPTV -

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...2#post17543352

b

Mr Bob, thank very much for your response, we are all so lucky to have you here !


You saying that you play the DVE dvd while in the convergence sm, at the same time and make the sm adjustments so that you an watch the 2 grids align at the same time ? This what you mean by geometry ?



Not sure is this is the same thing you are referring to, but what I found was that after I recentered the crosshairs tha majority of the screen was 'converged' not too badly except for the outside 2-3 vertical lines which were not well aligned, but I don't think they were brighter, just more unaligned. Is that you you refer to as "Scheimpfluge" and can be corrected by placing a washer or 2 under the centermost 2 retaining screws on the red and blue crt mounts (or under the lens mounts)? Should that then make the outmost lines look approx similarly aligned up to how the rest of the screen looks converged ? After doing this op I'd then have to redo redo the focus - and make sure I use the cantilever technique properly.

Yes, You are definitely right about the settings. I went in to check something in the sm and then my past convergence settings were erased - sheesh ! So yea, I guess I'm into the sm to redo the convergence. I'm a bit weary of the sm. I've read that manual a few times now and I'm still not really clear of some of the operations or what whey they mean, I guess it really was written in Japanese Also I find that some of the instructions do not behave the way the manual says they should, so much of the time I'm scratching my head to trying figure out how to do something. As a past engineer I've read some poor technical documentation but this manual wins a prize. It seems to written for people who already know the ops and don't really need the manual. OK I'll stop whining. I'm suspect I'll be back here asking for some sm help


Was it worth the effort ?

Well I'm not finished yet, and I've not yet cleaned the lenses or mirror, I'll do that last, once I've finished messing around with the insides, but if I can get rid of the overscan I'll be happy. It really bugs me when watching NFL football and I cant see the play time, score or info on the line at top of the screen Also, like many of us warped individuals here, I don't mind doing this kind of thing, It's partly for fun - as long as I don't screw things up beyond repair.

The Yellow button allows for your sent-in pattern to be what's seen when in conv mode, either dot or OK. You then see what is being sent to the screen, whether it's a pattern or actual video material. You don't get to see both grids at the same time on a Pio like you do on a Mit.

The CT has nothing to do with scheimpflug -


b

Ok I just got lucky and found this Pioneer Elite 710HD on craigslist last weekend for $200 when I seen them being listed for $1000 to $1200 there this summer. My wife however prefers a flat panel but I told her we could get this set to look just as good after a service guy came out and properly calibrated it.

Now though being I am very handy guy and found this site I think I will do the shim and calibration myself instead of spending the $320 to have it ISF done or should I anyway after the shim? The RPTV is in excellent shape and picture looks good however the overscan is killing me since the scores are right at the top and get half cut off so I need to gain about a 1/2". The other thing is the while the HD picture looks very good it's not as sharp as a flat panel and the scores and other writings are blurred (wife giving me the "SEE TOLD YA"). Will this ever be corrected after I am done or will it always have that effect due to it being a RPTV? My main concern is that it's 9 yrs old, never properly calibrated, and there will be burn in on the lenses and my shim job will be worthless. I ordered the service manual from Pioneer and should see it Monday. So that should help.

Any pointers given would be appreciated. I first have to figure out how to get the front off for the shim job. Unless you do it from the rear. I did take the rear access panel off and blow the whole thing out to remove the dust & dirt. Lenses still looked clean

One last Question after it gets hot I get random blue flashes. It's real random too last night it happened once & the night before the cleaning which I did yesterday morning it happened 5 times. Kinda baffles me.

Dana

Take care of that first, ASAP.

Read as much of this thread as you can:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=402397

In this post I gave links to the most helpful pages for me:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showp...postcount=1947

As mentioned in the post by mt_goat above this one, fix this. But let me add to it, make fixing this your #1 PRIORITY RIGHT AWAY!

If you don't fix this issue ASAP by having the PS board resoldered, it almost surely will cause other parts to fail due to the voltage spiking.

YES. STOP USING YOUR SET NOW. Even if it's on right now, unplug it. The passive power supply section, fed directly by the wire that plugs into the wall, is affected too.

If you use your set in its present condition, you're playing Russian Roulette with it. You must get its cold solder joint situation remedied PROPERLY - which eliminates most local repair techs - before you allow it to get back to normal operating temperatures EVEN ONCE. Those spikes mentioned above are quite deadly to certain boards downline.


It's a dynamite deal you got there, tho. Your CRTs are NOT trashed and can be shimmed for overscan redux, to show you what you're missing out at those edges. Or the overscan reduced strictly via the sm. Both methods are still available on your set even at its present age.

And your optics ARE dirty. You just gotta learn how to find it and make it show up for you. AND how to properly clean them, as those optics are ferociously fragile and any damage to them is permanent.

But I bring these sets back to stealth grade operation all the time, both on coming back to completely stable operation, and for stealth grade display fidelity on the images, even at its current age. The link Michael sent up above contains many screenshots of my work on these units, and the results in terms of actual freezeframed HD images, shot on my Kodak Z712 IS digital cam.

Hang in there, you did the right thing.



b

Mr. Bob,

How much do you think the going rate is for you to resolder the board and what is the turnaround time?

Dirt cheap for a $7000 set. I have been resoldering these defective PS boards for AVS people - and others - for a couple of years now. Turnaround time is a max of 2 weeks, tho it's usually just a couple of days.

But I don't like to quote prices on these boards, for various reasons.

So please contact me off board in the normal ways - not by pm please - and I'll get that info right back to you privately.


b

Understandable. I just left you a voicemail.

One last thing... for the 710 what is the recommended shim height?
And, I was looking at doing a speaker upgrade and factory is 8 ohm 5 watt...is it ok to switch it to a car speaker that is 4 ohms w/low wattage requirements?

Recommended shim height for a Pioneer 64" is 2". I use building blocks from ToysRUs, 8 of 'em total. My 73" Mit has 3" of shim on each corner, assembled from pieces of 1x2. If I had thought of the toy blocks then, I woulda had a much easier time...



Yes it should be OK for that switch of speaker impedance, should be more efficient that way, even. We used to do this with car amps all the time to get more power out of their amps, tho everything had to be mixed and matched correctly, so that we didn't wind up having multiple speakers in parallel hit amps with 2 ohm loads, which DO present problems to most audio amps.

Most audio amps have no problem with this, it would only be the esoteric ones that would have to stay strictly within design parameters and not change imepdance. That should not apply to this app, tho I have not tried and and as such cannot definitively say one way or the other...

The amps in these sets are probably not even 5 watts each - but even if so, just don't run them at full tilt boogie and you can use lesser-rated wattage speakers in there.

Besides who ever would have expected to hear of a car stereo speaker with less wattage rating than 5 watts???



Car speakers are rarely rated at less than 20 watts, with 100 watts and more being much more the norm.

b

I hear ya Bob...lol
I found some Pioneer 6 1/2" coax 2-way speakers for $24 that are 2-30 watt RMS @ 4 ohms and that is what really matters not the max handling. With them being 2-way there should be a definite improvement in the sound quality with better treble as the bass sounded good already.

For my shims I just returned from Menards with 6 - 3/4" pvc couplings that are just a sliver over 2" and 8 - 4mm x 60mm screws all for a cost of $5.

Now you were recommending door stops for the cantilever to fine tune the angle. Well I was thinking of automotive weather stripping to stick to the plates for a added cushion and spring to get that fine tuned angle by just adjusting the screws. That will however take my overall height to approx. 2 1/4". bad idea or not? If it is I will return the 3/4" couplings and get the 1/2" which were like 1 3/4" tall instead of 2".

btw... thanks for all your help as I'm sure I will need more advise. If you can email me about the cost and your address for the solder job to the power supply board. Then can see about getting it to you. When I looked I could not see any poor or weak solder connections but that was with my naked untrained eye too.

We just chatted on the phone, glad you received my email with the requested data.

No cushioning should be used in the shimming process, and each corner has to be EXACTLY the same height as the other 3. For that reason I don't recommend you use PVC piping that's been cut to size, as each may wind up being a bit different from the others. Stick with the 1" TRUs toy building blocks, each of which is exactly uniform to the others. Or other shim material that is already exactly cut. If you are totally adept at cutting the PVC pipe EXACTLY or have just the right equipment for so doing, knock yourself out, but many people are not. I would not be...



The doorstops do NOT affect the height of the shimming, which needs to stay perfectly parallel to the original status, as I said above. It allows the array to be moved forwards and/or back ONLY, and may not apply in the case of the Pioneers. It does in the Mit's, it allowed me to shove my array forward and back and wind up with the perfect placement in registering the height of my actual picture on my viewscreen. Then it allowed me to tilt my actual pic by altering the angle of the forward/backness, shoring up the positioning with the doorstops for alignment only, until the positioning was tightened down. Again, this may not apply to the Pioneers. With them you may have to simply loosen up whatever you have solidifying your positioning, change that angle or placement front to back, then tighten it down again.

There is an extensive set of pictures on how I did my shimming on mine at my Don't Dump Your CRT RPTV thread, somewhere at this thread -

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...95922&page=207

and a lot on how I did it on a Pioneer at page 58 of this thread -

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...402397&page=58


b

So far I quite pleased with the shimming op. The pic looks good and got rid of much overscan, the convergence adjusts were was not as bad as I thought, but I still have a few questions. I have a 510 and I used a 1.5" ( basically a 2x4 cut into a 2x2 square. Have others found a better shim height, ie 1 3/4 or maybe 2 inches ?

The other question is in the service menu. I havent worked on the colors yet as they seem ok to me, but can someone help me understand what the DRV and CUT ( ie DRV-R -G -B, and the CUT-R -G -B )settings are for and how to best adjust them ?

I found 1.8" to be plenty on my 510, almost too much and it had a lot of overscan (as my pics on page one showed). My 530 doesn't have as much overscan and if I was doing it I'd start with way less.