HSU Research ULS-15 vs. PC/PB13-Ultra - Page 2

Originally Posted by croseiv

At normal listening levels, I really doubt you will hear a huge (if any) difference between these subs if they are set up the same way. Note: this IS ONLY my biased opinion..

Originally Posted by cschang

I say you can hear the difference between the two(it is not difficult), and with some material it is more noticeable than with others. It is something you need to experience to really understand.

Originally Posted by Kain

Well, I just got an e-mail from HSU regarding the shipping charges. The full cost (subwoofer + shipping) for a ULS-15 in Satin Black is $1,699.58. This is a bit cheaper than the PC13-Ultra and the PB13-Ultra with shipping charges.

Decisions, decisions!

Originally Posted by croseiv

So you've heard an Ultra and an ULS15?

[says this as I get pelted buy 16Hz organ pedal...}

Originally Posted by cschang

Absolutely. I would not say I thought one sounded better than the other if I didn't. The caveat is I didn't hear them in the same room....but the differences were pretty obvious to me.

Originally Posted by Snowmanick

While less money is always a plus, I just want to state I feel the Ultra is a heck of a sub. I have yet to hear the ULS-15 but I do find the PB13 to be very musical. Also, on movies it is a powerhouse that is very deft and tactile.

Finally, as for rolloff below the port tuning, so what. I have mine set in the 15hz mode, it would take a lot more power than what the ULS is going to provide for a single sub to make all that much of an impression at those frequencies.

I think you will be very satisfied with either sub, but I can tell you that I do not regret buying an Ultra over a ULS, even with the monetary difference considered.

Originally Posted by uni_panther

While your room is sealed and is only coming in at just over 1600 cubic feet you are talking about an incredible amount of db's in some of your posts. I guess you would have to decide how often you really want to achieve those results and if you might want to consider dual subs, which then brings up cost for some people. If you did in fact want to get dual subs you have to consider the price break HSU gives you. You could pick up 2 Satin Black ULS-15's for $2200 (not counting shipping) compared to 2 PB13's in textured black would cost you $3200 (without shipping) or gloss black for $3400 (without shipping)

Originally Posted by Snowmanick

It is still a large price difference and I do not know how this applies to international orders, but SVS offers a 5% discount if you order multiples of the Ultra. That knocks it down to $3040 (free shipping for the lower 48 states helps those of us stateside as well).

Originally Posted by cschang

In that room...I would go with the ULS-15. Yes, IMO, the ULS-15 sounds better.

Since the ULS-15 is sealed, and the PB13U is ported, their FR profiles are different. Below the port tuning of the PB13, it rolls off much faster than a sealed box. So it depends on how low and the tuning of the PB13.

As for output between the two, if both subs are calibrated, and you do not listen at insane levels, you won't need the extra output of the SVS in that room IMO.

Originally Posted by mojomike

There is statement that says: "Note: Returning SVS customers, or those buying more than one Ultra sub receive 5% discount off these already great prices. Contact us for details."

https://svsound.com/products-sub-box-pb13ultra.cfm

Originally Posted by cschang

Next time I get to my friend that has the dual PB13 setup, I will get him to give me a listen in sealed mode, although I don't think it will change its transient response much, especially in the upper bass.

Originally Posted by Pete_Hsu



There really is no such thing as a "textbook" sealed subwoofer. All subwoofer designs involve tradeoffs, whether it is size/cost/features/etc.

Comparing a relatively compact sealed box subwoofer to a larger and more expensive ported subwoofer that has 2-3x more internal volume and takes up much more floorspace is really an apples to oranges comparison. Even so, the ULS-15 can more than hold it's own with respect to deep bass extension, frequency response linearity, and feature set.

Things start to get more interesting when you add a second ULS-15 into the mix. With TWO ULS-15, the max clean output capability is as good or better at most frequencies compared to most very large ported subwoofers, with some very tangible benefits that multiple subwoofers can bring to the system. Two ULS-15 have at least 8-9db higher max clean output capability (using CEA 2010 standard) at and above 25Hz compared to a VTF-3 MK3 in extended bass mode, while having deeper bass extension and a much more shallow low frequency rolloff too. In addition to that, multiple subwoofers can help one smooth out in-room frequency response. And since each ULS subwoofer is relatively compact, has wireless connectivity, and weighs less than 90 pounds, they are much easier to move around and place in-room compared to a large ported subwoofer.

Kain, based on your room size/dimensions, two good subwoofers should give very tangible benefits in terms of frequency response linearity and low distortion vs a single subwoofer, provided that you have a flexible enough budget to accomodate the pricier dual sealed box system. If not, just go with one large ported subwoofer (or two lower cost ported subwoofers, which may be as good or better than a single larger ported subwoofer, depending on the design and the application).

Sincerely,

Originally Posted by Ed Mullen

Rather, I posted here because Curtis conveniently failed to mention the PB13U can be operated in Sealed mode, and was treating the Ultra like a dedicated bass-reflex model and comparing its roll-off profile in vented mode to the shallower roll-off profile of the ULS-15, and stating that was an advantage for the Hsu.

Originally Posted by Ed Mullen

Now that's keeping an open mind there, Curtis.

Originally Posted by Ed Mullen

My response is - if the customer wants a low-Q Sealed alignment with a shallow roll-off slope from the Ultra, he can easily have it within seconds - and it can be a very compelling operating mode in a small enclosed room.

Originally Posted by cschang



With no need to re-set the sub level?

Originally Posted by Ed Mullen

I wouldn't change a thing about the PB13U's performance in sealed mode - it's outstanding in all respects and a classic audiophile alignment. Too many sealed subwoofers on the market try too hard to act like a bass reflex model, with excessive EQ down to a target corner frequency and then a hard high pass - thereby negating one of the primary benefits of a sealed design - namely the low Q corner and shallow roll-off and the ability to take advantage of room gain.

Originally Posted by cschang

Ed....in a 1600 ft^3, can you describe the difference in the upper bass characteristics with regards to the different tuning configurations of the PB13U?

With no need to re-set the sub level?

Originally Posted by otk

that's what i like about the seaton submersive

Originally Posted by Ed Mullen

The in-room FR will change when switching from vented to sealed, so your perception of the spectral and tonal characteristics of the subwoofer will also change. It's not as simple as comparing the four quasi-anechoic FRs over a given bandwidth and attempting to draw conclusions just from those. Just give it a listen with open mind.

The sub level should always be adjusted at the pre/pro when changing tunes as the sensitivity levels are progressively lower with the deeper tunes. The differences in average sensitivity levels can be seen in this FR chart which is all four curves at the same drive level. You'll definitely need to bump the sub level up a few dB when switching from 20 Hz vented mode to Sealed mode for example. http://www.svsound.com/products/subs...a_FR_popup.jpg

Naturally if any sort of auto-EQ routine has been run which equalizes the subwoofer, it would need to be re-run. For quick comparisons between various tunes, the auto-EQ can typically be disabled.

As for the "here we go again" comment - I'm not interested in playing the heavy or starting a flame war. With that said, you know darn well the PB13U can be operated in Sealed mode and also the type of FR and roll-off profile it has in Sealed mode - the 2M GP data has been posted for a long time in two separate forums. All I ask is that you fairly represent that fact in discussions with others when drawing comparisons to competitive brands. Thanks.

Originally Posted by cschang

Thanks Ed.
With regards to the sound of the different modes, with the changes in in-room FR, what if those changes were EQ'd? Could you describe the differences? FR changes will occur in other areas of the range other than port tuning?

Originally Posted by Ed Mullen

Even if both subwoofers were EQ'd for a similar response above the corner, they would still sound different because of the steeper roll-off profile of the bass reflex version below the corner frequency and that will affect your psychoacoustic perception of the subwoofer sound across the entire pass band.

If you want me to say they will both sound identical above the corner if they are EQ'd similarly I can't concede that - the whole FR colors our perception of the entire subwoofer pass band - so we can't isolate the spectrum below the corner and ignore its influence on how we perceive mid/upper bass.

Any abrupt change in FR will also cause a change in phase response, which affects GD (which is just delta phase with respect to frequency). Where the classic (low-Q non-high passed) sealed subwoofer typically has a transient advantage over a bass reflex sub is over the wide/broad corner bandwidth and the subsequently shallower roll-off slope. FR and phase changes are gradual, so GD remains low down to very deep frequencies.