Input lag wars!, post your input lag results of your LCD display here for reference - Page 70

Oh snap. My bad. Obviously I've made a mistake which then led to several false assumptions. Could be you were discussing a different model (or yeah, it was someone else). If I weren't on my iPhone, I'd go back and unravel the mystery, but navigating Safari and collecting links is a real dog.

Thanks so much for your quick response. Nevermind the white glow issue. I was just looking at a 37" IPS 450 and I didn't notice anything odd, at least compared to my IPS monitor. It was running a Blu-ray and looked very nice, even from a reasonable off-angle; at least to me.

Interesting that you're able to properly view the 444 image on an unlabelled HDMI connection. I suppose that indicates the unit is able to display 444 resolution outside of a dedicted PC mode, which is excellent news if true. Your image seems to confirm it.

I do have one last question regarding the product code. I've been able to track down several units with a "W" (and many more with a "D"), but I wonder about the rest of the code. The first letters seem to indicate geographical location, followed by the W or D, then you have either two or three letters that indicate ... what? Anyone know? I've seen W followed by LHO and W followed by LE. The 37" I viewed was a WLE and it was quite nice.

EDIT: Just out of curiosity, and I'm certain you've mentioned this elsewhere so I apologize, what is the product code of the unit you tested, pooh? UA.CUSWLH?

All three of my displays have a product code of UA.CUSWLHO. There's a thread on avforums (link, post #23) that decodes the product code. Not 100% accurate from what I see, but probably close enough. Using that site, here's what the letters mean for my particular set:

U (regional destination) = Asia (this is undoubtedly wrong, U probably means United States)
A (design of bezel stand) = swivel type, no tilt
C (PCB origin) = LG Russia (this is questionable, C probably means China)
US (market area) = ??? (US probably means United States)
W (panel type) = S-IPS
L (???) = ???
HO (assembly plant) = ??? (HO is probably Mexico, since the tv says "made in mexico")

Sorry, I missed your post the first time around.

Yes, I'm quite familiar with off-angle IPS "glow" being visible in the corners, for instance, while sitting dead center. In fact, that's one of my major complaints with my 24" monitor - I can only imagine how bad it could potentially be with a much larger screen. Fact is, I'm willing to forgive a little color shifting so long as a set checks the majority of my requirements, such as 444, color accuracy, low input lag and decent responsiveness.

The viewing angles on the LG are definitely narrow, but not so much that I take exception. It's all subjective, mind you.

BTW, just a heads up, on the LGs that # is actually called a service code, and the number designating the panel type follows the model number.

Awesome, thanks so much. I've managed to talk a local shop down to $478 on an WLHO. Looks like a safe bet. I also have a line on an WLN and an WLH.

I really liked the AG coat on the WLN screen I viewed this afternoon. It's just heavy enough to diffuse reflections but not so heavy that it interferes with the images. Quite nice. I almost wonder if the AG varies between panels based on where is was manufactured. I may have to look into that tomorrow. I wasn't able to see the other panels in action. I merely confirmed the product code on the box.

You briefly owned a Samsung LN32C530, right? Was the picture quality comparable? I've heard the Sammy can attain some fairly deep blacks. Cheers!

You could be right. All I know is, according to the sticker on the side of the set, the model number + the following letters are collectively called the "product number". Or code. Might be product code. Can't recall.

Interesting to note, as well, according to the thread that interprets the code, a "D" actually indicates a TN panel. That makes sense. A TN panel next to an IPS would look like ass, washed out with super narrow viewing angles. Contrast would go completely to hell from any kind of off-angle.

Shame on LG for creating a panel lottery with such a huge disparity between the "winner" and the "loser".

Its all subjective obviously, but to me, the LD450 destroyed the C530. I played around with the picture/color settings on the C530 for about 30 minutes, but could never get it to the same caliber as the LD450. I wasn't paying too much attention to black levels unfortunately, so I can't really comment on that.

According to FlatpanelsHD and HDTVtest, the input lag on the Sony KDL55HX800 is around 30-40ms in game mode.

Flatpanelshd pegged it at 40ms while HDTVtest pegged it at 30ms. Good to know Sony is stepping its game up.

Thanks for the info, I really appreciate it.

The first few pages of the LD450 owner's thread on AVForum aren't filling me with confidence, though I'm not convinced they're reliable. It sounds more like a pack of AV noobs raging against technology they're not entirely familiar with. For instance: http://www.avforums.com/forums/13004399-post125.html

They also mention "excessive sharpness" when connecting their PC via HDMI, though again, it sounds a lot like noobrage.

If you've found evidence 4:4:4 color support (at 1080p, HDMI) on the LD450, I'm keenly interested. I've made trips to local Best Buys with a certain test image intended to reveal precisely this capacity, but I limited my tests to Panasonic models (all of which seemed to fail.. but I am not 100% certain). I've also tested an el-cheapo Sharp 42" which passed, though it smeared the image as part of its non-defeatable image processing.

Granted, I am not specifically interested in the LD450 due to its 60Hz limitation, but like models may share capabilities.

As far as the color shifting thing, there is a specific reason why I take such offense with it. When viewing angles are particularly bad, the chroma and luma spectrum seen by one's left eye is different enough from that seen by the right eye that the two pictures fail to mesh satisfyingly. Like bad 3d, or a cheap optical illusion. It's uncomfortable and persistently nagging. There's a reason why vertical viewing angles are always worse than horizontal; it's an engineered effort to minimize this effect. But sitting close enough to use the TV as a PC monitor handily defeats this effort in most cases - particularly when a TV has inherently poor viewing angles. That is why it is such a deal-breaker for me. That said, it is quite probable that I have just not yet seen an LG TV with an IPS panel. The next time I go bug folks at Best Buy, I'll bring a cheap magnifying glass.

Here's my contribution to this thread. All TV tested are 2010 model. All purchased at Bestbuy to test. I'm an avid FPS gamer.

I play Call of Duty Modern Warfare 2 on all of these TV since FPS is probably the best game to test for input lag.

Samsung LCD 40'' LN40C630. Great picture on movies/sport/games. But horrible input lag on game. What a shame because football/blue ray look so good on this TV

Panasonic Plasma 42'' TC-P42S2. Great picture on movies. Decent picture in sport and game. Average to slightly low input lag. Ok for average gamer
Sony LCD 32'' 32EX700. Great picture on almost everything. But i could clearly feel the input lag when playing a competitive free-for-all match in Modern Warfare 2. I'd rank it average input lag. Not good enough for me though
Sony LCD 40'' L40EX500 Good picture but motion in sport/blue ray isn't as smooth as the Samsung. Picture look awesome in game. Average input lag.
Sharp Quattron 40'' LCD LED LC-40LE810UN Picture is very pop but color is a bit washed out. Movies and sport look good. Could feel input lag similar to the Sony 40ex500 especially when I aiming and turning around to shoot people in MW2.

I returned all the TV set lol and i think the best one out of them in term of movies/sport/tv/games is the Pannasonic 42S2. There is still input lag but not to point where you would hate it.

Currently ordering a Panasonic plasma 42'' TCp42G25 to see how it is in a few day.

If anyone know how the LG 37'' LCD 37LH40 input lag is please let me know. Im very interest to know about that one but they only have it online. Thanks

To be honest, I have little to base it on beyond poohcontinuum claiming the cheap MS Paint image provided by Neilo TM (a reviewer for hdtvtest.co.uk) is clear, whereas it would be obviously blurred if the set were failing to render in 4:4:4. I haven't actually tested it myself. I've brought the image to several stores on a flashdrive, but it's my understanding that the image either needs to be PNG or BMP and neither format is recognized by the media player on televisions here in North America (might be different elsewhere). It'll display if it's in JPG, but that seems to defeat the purpose (this is secondhand knowledge coming form people far more guru than myself, mind you).

If you can figure it out, I'd be interested to know; but ultimately, if the flaw requires a magnifying glass to see, chances are I won't consider it a serious detriment to my viewing pleasure.

Problem with those sites is they're very ad based and seem to lean toward certain brands on reviews.

I admit I don't quite regard that quick and dirty image to be a good candidate for testing chroma resolution. ;p The effects of subsampling tend to be subtle, especially on a still image. For example, take a look at the pic he posted of the TV showing the image. Does the vertical line in the "E" look a bit smudged? It's hard to tell at the resolution of the provided image.


Even though JPGs don't have a built-in color limitation and should therefore suffice just fine, I think the point is moot because there's no telling what a TV's "image viewer" will do to the image. Resize it? Display it with truncated chroma resolution? Do these possible modifications even have any bearing at all on the video input and processing? No, the only way to be sure is to bring a laptop.

I used Vdub to generate an (idealized) 4:2:2 result from my own modified test chart. Here's a before and after (zoomed in):



The area where red vertical lines are separated by exactly two black pixels is the specific point of interest. Note the alternating pattern. On a TV which fails to pass 4:4:4, shifting this image left and right by one pixel is particularly elucidating, but even without doing so, on such a TV, there should be an obvious lack of precision in that spot. This doesn't require a magnifying glass. Other phenomena to watch out for are detailed here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chroma_subsampling


The phenomenon of color subsampling is sort of like giving a flat panel an interlaced video stream. The inherent problems tend to be invisible some of the time and blatant at other times. Case in point, the image above.

You won't get input lag with the G25, but you will get phosphor trailing, a common trait of plasmas.

You experienced lag on the EX500 because it's been tested at 60ms, which is actually above average for most gamers.

The 37LH40 is last yrs model, this yrs are lower in lag. You want a fast set in 37" by LG, get the 2010 37LD450. Just make sure you check for the W on the service code.

There are some bad reviews on Amazon for the 37LD450 though. And it's 60hz. Not sure if that's good for watching sport or fast moving action scenes in movie
Do you have test results for the 37LD450 ?

Well from the way you were prioritizing input lag so highly I assumed you were primarily interested in gaming, vs sports, action movies, etc. I agree though, the picture on the 450 models is not the best. I saw yellow tinting in faces and the colors overall don't seem as accurate and vibrant as the LED Panny has.

The D2 can look a bit crushed on blacks if you get too anal about calibration.
(Explained more in detail here: http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.p...&id=1286783229)
Note that much of the reason the blacks look so crushed in the pics is he dropped the gamma considerablly to get the colors as accurate as possible. I feel many lab testers overdo this and end up making the picture worse overall. I dropped the brightness a bit when tuning it in store myself, but not to 0 like he did. It's all about proper balance, no set is perfect, so you're better off realizing you need to accept some tradeoffs than going for perfect colors.

I've compared 2010 LG/Panny models in store a fair bit and I find overall the Pannys have better colors. Note too what he says about the Scanning Backlight staying on even when IFC (Intelligent Frame Creation) is off, which can create artifacts noticeable to some viewers. Scanning Backlight tech is nice though because it minimizes ghosting and blurring. By pulsing the backlight, SB has the effect of inserting a black frame between the image frames, so your eye doesn't see the lingering glow of the LCD crystals in between changing their color, which is what causes ghosting and blurring. A set with SB should NEVER be set to 0 brightness though, because they are slightly dim to begin with due to that black frame insertion effect. It will only serve to make the screen too dark and crush blacks. So I think it a bit silly he said the D2s exhibit this trait when it was HE that caused it by being too anal about the colors.

I don't have any test results personally on the 37450, but since it's the same set as the 32450 but slightly bigger, I would think the lag would be the same, about 24ms ave. In the above test on the D2, he measured it to be about 35ms, which is about average for a gaming display with good color. Even the Dell U2711 is about 28ms in Game Mode, which isn't less enough to even be noticeable. Note he did not use the most accurate method though (see below).

Don't mean to pick on pooh or anyone else's testing methods here, after all, I've never had the luxury of being setup to do any myself, but this tid bit from [H]ardlForum I found rather interesting. One of their main tech savvy members there is ToastyX. Check out what he says about input lag testing methods in post #5. http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1471308

In my gleaning on input lag testing I have found basically 3 levels of methods used, surprisingly the worst from AnnadTech, whom many tout as being THE elite tech site.

1) Testing against an LCD instead of CRT (AnandTech)
2) Testing against a CRT with a typical stop watch application (Average DIYer)
2) Testing against a CRT accounting for any inconsistencies getting same result each test (ToastyX)

Haha, "noobrage", I like that word. I'm going to start using it in my day-to-day conversations

But you are correct, almost all the grievances the poster mentioned are absolutely false. Granted, he's looking at the 42" model, but I can't imagine there being that much difference compared to the 32" model.

There's two reasons why the "E" looks smudged on my pics. 1) I don't have a $$$ DSLR camera to take super awesome shots, so there's always going to be some artifacts introduced by my cheapo camera. 2) My camera doesn't support RAW format, and pictures are automatically saved to jpg format. Jpg is a lossy compression, so some finer details and color will be lost during compression.

If you guys can give me a methodology for this 4:4:4 test and tell me what I'm supposed to be looking for, I'll try my best to get what you want.

The first post in this thread provides very good guidance on how to accurately test for input lag and checks for common pitfalls. Probably the most accurate form of testing that we mere mortals have is to use that SMTT tool, but juxtapositioning a giant CRT with a giant LCD so both tiny numbers appear in the same camera shot is daunting. So I prefer the use of the flatpanelshd timer app.

From comparing other people's SMTT and flatpanelhd tests on the same model, there's generally only a +/- 1 frame of variability between the two. To me, that's accurate enough.

look like i'll be hunting down a Panasonic 37s1

Well sir, clearly your testing methodology trumps my MS Paint on a flashdrive nonsense. I defer to your expertise on the matter. If I owned a laptop, I'd adopt your process and outfit myself to properly determine the LD450's ability to render 4:4:4. Unfortunately, my computational assets are of the stationary desktop variety ... though hooking my windowed, blue LED gaming tower to a floor demo would be good for a laugh.


Hell yeah. Hopefully Colmino can provide you with the tools and the know-how, as I'd be very interested to know what the 450 is capable of. I'm cautiously optimistic. One user on AVForum claimed the difference was night and day "WOW" when viewing Neilo's budget test image while flipping between Movie and PC mode on his LN32C550.


Considering all the assistance you've provided, I'm glad I could give something back.

Hehe. I'm especially fond of this one.

In other words the average DIYer that doesn't use the most accurate methods as described should really put the disclaimer under their test that it can be off as much as +/- 16ms. I don't call that too accurate. I'm sure now this is why we have input lag charts that state quite a range of results.

For example, many have been saying Sony's are still quite high in input lag, yet I just found DDay's chart to be contrary on 2010 models. Some they list as high in lag when not in Game Mode, but most when in Game Mode are 30ms or less. In fact even if you add them all up including those above 30ms, the ave Game Mode lag is only 27ms. Then of course you have to factor in whether they used accurate testing methods, but at least you can compare how one brand/model compares to another.

This has prompted me to go back to Fry's when my local town's Pro football team is done playing their game to look at their Sonys. The Bravia Engine is one of the best processors in the TV industry. http://72.9.159.100/avs-vb/showpost....&postcount=106

(EDITED)
Just checked with Frys and Best Buy before heading out to look at the Sonys and neither of them have any 32 or 40" EX700s. Are they selling that well or is Sony just scaling down their production numbers? I have a feeling it's a bit of both. The EX700 thread is pretty long, seems to be a popular set. I found it odd though that Best Buy claims they don't sell demo models, yet this set has been on the market a while.


Good set, hard to find anymore though, esp at a good price from a good vendor.

I believe there are really only three steps needed to successfully gauge their TV's ability to pass 4:4:4 color.

First, one has to be able to input a signal from a 4:4:4 source at the TV's full resolution and at 1:1 pixel perfection. Even a little scaling will make it difficult to really know what sort of anomaly one is looking at. I've expressed doubts about the JPG image viewers of TVs because they are designed to display all varieties of resolutions and may use different processes from how the video is ultimately handled. Second, the test image needs to feature areas where subsampling would become readily discernible. Third, one has to look closely at said areas, or take their pictures closely. Close enough to distinguish pixels individually.

That's easy enough. Here's a relevant piece of my mod of the Belle-Nuit test chart.



Ideally, one would take their laptop to their local outlet, display that tiny image in a window (no zooming), take a close photo of it, movie the image to the right by exactly one pixel, and take another close photo. The second photo may not be needed; close scrutiny of the red vertical lines separated by two black pixels ought to be plenty revealing (see my zoomed-in image from an earlier post in this thread). They'll either be identical or not. Other areas on that tiny image should also give telltale hints of subsampling.

If a USB key is the only option available, then it couldn't hurt to try the image viewer and hope that it has a "turn zoom off" option. For such a scenario, grab this JPG rendering I made of the 720p version of the full Belle-Nuit test chart (with my vertical lines mod).

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/attac...1&d=1286758775

The results of such a test would still be suspect, since they may have no bearing on actual video input.

Samsung's TVs, for all that they exhibit poor gaming performance, are at least known to be able to pass 4:4:4 color. Pity, that.

There's already a 1-frame-precision disclaimer in the opening post. So assuming most people read the opening post, there's an established understanding that measured lag results will vary by +/- 16 ms to the actual/true lag.

Now, lets assume for a moment that SMTT results are 100% accurate and precise. If the flatpanelshd timer method is well executed (well executed being key here), then a +/- 16 ms variability to the SMTT results is quite good in fact. Reason being that I doubt anyone is capable of discerning a difference of 16 ms through the naked eye.

As for the wide range of lag results you're seeing, I'm guessing this is due to measurements being made in a bad environment. Things like not using a CRT as the baseline, or not testing for primary/secondary frame buffer lag on the video card, or not running native resolutions (which may add scaler lag), or not disabling post processing features, etc etc -- the list goes on.

In my opinion, pretty much the only way to determine if someone's input lag results are accurate is if they clearly lay out all the test conditions and use a good sample size (2-3 pictures is not sufficient). With my results, I believe I mitigated every possible bad variable to would otherwise add measurement error.

But at the end of the day, 95% of the people out there probably think we're freaks for obsessing stuff like input lag

I don't feel it's obsessing really. Ever since TVs and monitors went away from CRT it's a realistic concern. The only time I feel it gets obsessive and unrealistic is when people worry so much about input lag, they forget to factor in things like ping. Nine time out of ten, in mp play it's the ping that will cause the noticeable lag they see, not the input lag of the display.

On an unrelated topic, has anyone else here had trouble reaching the TitanTV.com site today? For the life of me I can't manage to get onto their site today. I don't recall this ever happening before.

50ms. tested at 50 ms which is avg not high.

LOL, here we go again. The claimed lag test numbers on the EX500 series never seem to be the same result no matter whom tests them. Thus I consider that the actual could be closer to the worst case scenario than the more enticing claims. I also don't consider avid gamers would call 50ms average. It's average for high lag displays, not for ones acceptable to avid gamers. Since the sets avid gamers typically seek range from 16ms to 40ms, I would think average lag would be more like 30ms at the very most.

On the EX500 series, the numbers I've seen from tests can vary from 23ms best case scenario, to 60ms worst case scenario, both tested in Game Mode by sites that test in a lab.

HDTVtest.co.uk on 40EX503: http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-...0100603700.htm

DDay.it test on 37EX500: http://72.9.159.100/avs-vb/showpost....&postcount=106

What test are you referring to and what methods were used? Like I said above, I'm now considering checking out the 2010 Sonys, but if they don't in fact have any better lag measurements than 50ms, I'll pass.

Today I went to Sears, chiefly to see if they happened to have any 2009 Panasonics (no), but also with the goal of testing a few of their display models. The part-time salespeople were happy to let me at it.

I need to open up with a disclaimer about some issues with my testing. For whatever reason, every TV I have plugged the laptop into, with the exception of the Sharp 42SB48UT, has ended up only being sent 1080i60. That's three different Panasonics, an LG and a Samsung. I have no answer to this. It doesn't affect tests for color resolution (per se), but it may have an impact on input lag. I can't help it if the TVs aren't playing nice with the laptop. I can't bring in a different video source. It worries me, too, because who knows if that's how they'd behave if I bought one and tried using a proper PC on it. I sure as heck never saw anything in the settings of any of the TVs which may have helped resolve the issue. One other point: I did input lag tests using two different apps. One used green numbers, the other used white bars. Consistently, the green numbers (when they were usable) revealed about 16ms more input lag than the white bars approach. Your guess is as good as mine as to why that should be. (Edit: One last thing. The laptop has its own display lag of 8.222ms, and this was taken fully into account.) Anyway...

I had already tested the Panasonic TC-L42U25 and TC-L42D2 on prior visits to Best Buy, and had determined, to my reasonable satisfaction, that neither display properly handled 4:4:4 color. But for those tests, I hadn't brought along any input lag checkers. This time I did. And my app of choice was this gem:

http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1423433

which utilizes vertical bars, thus enabling much better estimates of input lag, and negating any need to discard snapshots for being too indistinct. (A notable advantage is the greatly reduced variability of the results.)

This time I started with the Panasonic TC-P42S2, realizing somewhat too late that it was a plasma display. The (color) results were identical to the other Panasonic TVs. Input lag, with settings as close to idealized as I could make them, was approximately 35.5ms.

Next up, the LG 42LD520. First I have to make mention of the panel. I immediately noticed that the viewing angles were much better than what I'm used to seeing from LG. Not outstanding, but not bad. Very close scrutiny revealed that I was looking at S-IPS. Lucky me. Anyway, the bad news is that the TV seems to handle color in an essentially identical fashion to the Panasonics. If the TV has a proper "game mode", the method for utilizing it was not apparent. I tried. After turning everything off that I could, the final input lag was approx. 56.5ms.

Finally, fed up with TVs that just don't handle PC input correctly, I turned to the Samsung LN40C630. As expected, the color was not subsampled. Yay, Samsung. Unfortunately, the input lag was 108ms. Once again, "game mode" was hidden from me. It wasn't in picture mode, it wasn't in advanced. I toyed around with that display for a long while until my laptop's batteries were dead.

I'll probably be returning tomorrow. The new goals: 1) Take better macro shots (every last one was too blurry, and I'm wondering if there's anything I can do about that). 2) Know in advance how to access game modes (esp. for the LG and the Samsung). 3) Test a Sharp or two. After all, if a dirt cheap Sharp can do better than LG and Panasonic, maybe I should be paying closer attention to them, in spite of clouding issues.

(If anyone has a step-by-step for putting the LG / Samsung in their idealized low input lag mode, feel free to share.)