Input lag wars!, post your input lag results of your LCD display here for reference - Page 72

Unless you sit 1mm away from the display, and have 10x zoom eyeballs, I seriously doubt you'll notice any squiggly-ness

Don't get me wrong. Perfection would be a welcome surprise! Generally though, I don't hold my breath with regard to color accuracy unless I'm dealing with professional grade, high resolution IPS monitors intended for photographers and medical applications (NEC). At that point, though, one is generally flirting with $1500-$2000 for a 26"-30" display.

... not that I'll rest on my laurels after the first calibration. I'll likely end up with two dozen or more color profiles in combination with a slew of tweaked settings on the LG before I settle on a combination that tickles my fancy. The difference between perfect and acceptable is often a matter of degrees. Not worth the extra pocket change, to be honest.

Wow, thanks Colmino! I had no idea what 4:4:4 even meant before I finally looked it up after reading about your adventure to Sears. I bought a Pioneer KRP-500M a few weeks ago, and now I have a much greater appreciation for my 2008 TV.

I'm an avid PC gamer, and am looking to upgrade my setup soon, and I'm probably going to need 2 or 3 PC-heavy TVs. ...The info you're providing here is so ridiculously & meticulously useful, that you could basically start your own web-site titled "Colmino's HDTV digest," lol. ...Forget CNET, I'm reading everything you post from now on!

By the downside mentioned in saying 24"Hz" do you mean 24p as in not able to play Blu-rays without judder? If the LGs don't even play Blu-rays well, that is a serious downside.

Actually there is 24p support. If I set my bluray player to 24p mode, the info banner on the LD450 will say "1080/24p".


You guys know of any 24p judder test scenes in Avatar? Its the only bluray I have

Anyone have test result or experienced input lag for these TV yet ?

Panasonic TC-L37X2
Panasonic TC-L37D2
Panasonic TC-L37U2

None of my local stores carry these model so i cannot test the TV.

Thanks. Appreciated

...

Sure enough. The info is hard to find, and seemingly unconfirmed in the 1080p24 list on forum.blu-ray.com. Plus the manual is almost deliberately vague, since it covers 31 different models. But apparently the TV will do 2:2 pulldown. And I just double-checked your input lag tests... yep, 1.5 frames. I'm beginning to feel like I've been handed this TV on a silver platter.

I guess the only things left to complain about are the dubious viewing angle (even as S-IPS) and the need to shop locally in order to ensure the acquisition of an S-IPS panel. Eh, plus I need to make sure the 42" model passes 4:4:4. I guess my nightmare scenario now is the possibility that S-IPS versions haven't been manufactured in such a long time that I will never find one.


Bah! You're a gamer. You do input lag tests. Surely you can identify within seconds whether a TV is giving you a multiple of 24Hz or not. ;p

Just pick a scene where the camera is panning across the landscape. Despite what some have said about judder being noticeable on moving objects like helis, I find it's most noticeable when a camera does a sweeping pan across the stationary landscape, esp if they're mountainous.
I have found if the lighting is right, they actually have fairly decent viewing angles. I looked at a 32" and 37" at Fry's. The 32" looked fine with no washout, the other washed out. It was because the 32" was on an end aisle with a dark wall and no ceiling lights behind it. The 37" was on the other side of the same aisle with ceiling lights and other sets behind it. Room lighting makes a huge difference with this yr's LGs.

I'm surprised you didn't notice the yellow tint to skin tones though, really bothered me and I couldn't manage to tune it out. It's not always there, just on some TV broadcasts. I know it wasn't reception or a bad feed either, because the LED LG and the Pannys didn't have the problem. If it weren't for that one thing, I'd def be sold on the LG 450s.

To be brutally honest, considerations like that took a back seat to the pressing issues of input lag and color resolution. The first affects my ability to use the TV at all, and the second involves the possibility of uniquely distracting visual anomalies.

Now it seems I'm going to have to really hope there are other LG models which can handle 4:4:4 color, because I have just noticed that the 450 only has two HDMI inputs. At best, I could hook up the 360 via VGA, but it would be a nagging quibble.

The only other 60Hz model (besides the even cheaper 350) is an edge-lit LED. Too bad those always have uniformity issues.

Did you confirm that both the 32 and 37 were IPS panels? You may have looked at a 32" with an IPS panel and a 37" with an xVA panel. A simple 8x magnifier will be enough to comfortably examine the subpixels.

Ouch reading the tests on the previous page with the Samsung C650 series, as well as the game mode pictures that were posted I decided to cancel my order for the C630...

60 fps or bust!

I was watching the opening menu sequence of Avatar (which had a few panning shots) last night, and I didn't really notice any bizarre juddering going on. Later tonight I'll try to find a really big panning sequence and see what happens.

If anyone has any recommendation on a good judder test in Avatar, let me know. I don't want to watch the movie again

Maybe the TV you had was defective in some way? Last night, I plugged my directv receiver into the display using hdmi. I watched some evening local news + cnn headline news, and certainly didn't see any yellowing of skin tones.

Can't say much about the rest, but I had no problem finding a W. One store had three in stock and they were all S-IPS. Happy hunting!

... now to unbox.

Thanks to all for this info and time spent getting it. I have read through this thread as best I could. I have done some research online and am still learning, but I am struggling on finding info on the 60" and up LCD's. I am going to replace my den TV(DLP) with a LED LCD. I am currently looking at the Samsung UN60C6300, Sharp LC-60LE810UN and Sony KDL60EX700. But that was before finding this thread on input lag. The TV will be used for 50% Xbox 360(FPS), 25% Bluray and 25% football games. So input lag is important and so is good quality picture and color. I can go up or down on my price range if needed. Does anyone have experience with these LCD's or similar ones?

Thanks

Yes, and you need not do that via a macro. They have a service code on the back that shows the model number with a number following it which identifies panel type. A W in the number means IPS, a D means PVA. They were both Ws. This has been verified by several here whom have done macros, so no need to for those of us without cameras capable of doing so. I also verified via reading several reviews on the non 2010 LGs. Most remark on how they're very susceptible to reflections, which creates a washout effect.
The non LED LGs I looked at all had this problem, and they were store models. Like I said it doesn't happen with all broadcasts, but when it happens it's noticeable and not present on the LG and Panny LEDs I looked at.
On the LG 32 LE5300 LED I mostly noticed washout, it's very bad even with dim lighting and darkness behind the viewer. The Panny LEDs have no washout or unevenness to their backlight though. The main problem I have with the Panny LED is the blacks get crushed easily.
It just dawned on me as it has before that movies such as Avatar are not likely good ones to test for judder. The whole movie is virtually a CG affair. In a movie that shows real life camera panning across a landscape you have the analog optical camera lens doing an actual sweeping shot, then it's converted to digital for the home viewers, along with the pull down conversions necessary. In computer generated shots it's pretty much all green screen/blue screen mock ups to simulate the real thing. Now the pull down may still be necessary, but I doubt it's as much a problem when they start with a CG digital process. I've yet to see judder in any CG scene, be it Avatar, Ironman, etc, no matter what the set.

Noted. My neighbor has some Planet Earth blu-rays', I'll see if I can borrow them for a judder test. Those ought to have some nice real life landscape panning footage somewhere.

There ya go, perfect source material for that. I was noting that even Best Buy's HD broadcast reception of BBC Earth can easily show judder in panning shots. Hard to say whether it's a fair test though, as it's part of the broadcast and because of it all sets may show it. Better to have a Blu-ray example I think.

BTW, I have a question I've been meaning to ask you all. I've noticed I cannot see certain TV model numbers I type in or that others type in unless I open the edit box for my post or quote box for theirs. Why are they being censored? For now I've found it can be circumvented by putting a space somewhere in the model number, like between the size digits and the rest of it, rather annoying though.

Nevermind, my neighbor had Life, not Planet Earth. Both have similar content so I borrowed it anyways. When I play the bluray, the LG info display is telling its running in 1080/60p mode. My bluray player is set to 24p mode, and I double checked using Avatar (info display showed 1080/24p). So I'm guessing the Life bluray is encoded in 60p from the factory. So I can't do any judder tests

Not sure why the model numbers are being censored for you. On my side they seem fine.

Not quite. The footage was filmed in 60i. In fact Bluray doesn't support 1080p60 anyway. But yeah, you can't use Planet Earth / Life to test 24Hz support.

I really can't be the only one who can easily tell when there is a non-smooth frame cadence. I took it for granted that it was a simple matter - the real impetus, in fact, behind 24Hz support in the first place (as a common rather than prosumer complaint). On the other hand, I'm sort of proud of my ability to expose single-chip DLPs in under five seconds. ;p

Tomorrow I make an attempt to see if other LGs enjoy the effectively unique abilities of the S-IPS 32LD450. Wouldn't it be grand if I find one that has three HDMI ports? (And no edge-lit LED nonsense.) Not expecting it, though; I'm fairly convinced that the non-defeatable loss of 4:4:4 color goes hand in hand with 120Hz support of any kind.

so lets say you are a PC fps gamer and have $500 not a penny more and one hour to buy an HDTV or you DIE!!!. What would you buy?

I'm glad to see so much activity in this thread by a new group of folks. The 2009 'veterans' aren't around so much.



No offense taken, and not to sound crass, but where does this "fact" come from? The term "Gauss" is a unit of magnetic charge, so to degauss is to remove a magnetic charge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Degauss...ssing_monitors


The metal screen (shadow mask) is actually the piece that gets magnetized and causes the color distortion. The electrons get redirected by the residual magnetic charge and hit phosphors behind the wrong holes in the mask, producing the wrong colors.

There is something called a "getter" in CRTs to recover electrons, but there's no "collecting" of oxidation; the phosphors are literally burned, and don't come back. The only way to repair them is to physically open the back of the tube and apply a new phosphor coating. This is sometimes done for high-end CRT projection tubes, but otherwise isn't worthwhile.

The only sort of de-oxidation that can be done is to 'rejuvenate' the tube, which involves using a repair device that creates a controlled over-voltage to blast a layer off of the electron gun in the back, which will sometimes brighten it up and extend its life for a short time. This has nothing to do with the phosphors, though.


Of course, all of this has nothing to do with input lag, but sometimes I just can't help it...

Any oxidization inside a CRT tube has to be very low or nonexistant. There is no air inside CRT tubes, they contain vacuum. Thats why they are so heavy. The reason CRTphosphors degrade slowly over time has probably to do with slow erosion from the electron "wind" that makes the phosphors glow.

LG LD4xx seems to be the safest choice, make sure you get one with an ips panel.

Where did I say it wasn't? It still doesn't mean there's no oxidation building up. The degaussing is merely a slight amount of voltage being applied to the screen (or grill in the case of Trinitrons) to demagnetize, but it also shakes off the phosphor oxidation. The only thing I had incorrect is using the term oxidization instead, though one could argue it could be said either way.

Phosphor degradation and the resulting oxidation is a trait of any TV that uses a phosphor screen. The degaussing of the ISM or AG doesn't just demagnetize the metal screen or grill itself, it shakes off any residual oxidation. I was told this by a local shop that repairs CRT monitors and TVs, it's not just conjecture on my part.

Since you like Wiki for verification, here's something that pertains to it:

"Phosphor degradation
Many phosphors tend to gradually lose efficiency, by several mechanisms. The activators can undergo change of valence (usually oxidation)..."

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phosphor
The above by extension also refutes the speculation that any oxidation in a CRT might be non existent.

At the risk of derailing the CRT oxidization discussion, I thought I might chime in about my own TV quest.

As promised, I made another trip to Best-Buy with the idea of perhaps finalizing a selection. With the knowledge (and proof!) that the LG 32LD450 is capable of low input lag and proper 4:4:4 color support, the plan was to do the usual tests on a variety of LG TVs and see what I could see. But the only LG models on the floor and within reach were the 32LD450 and the 32LE5400. Oh well. Picking up any 42 inch model was going to be a gamble.

But first I decided to try out those two 32 inchers. Well, the poor LED-based 5400 (S-IPS) not only failed the test but also exhibited Vizio-like lag. I'll spare you the details (and save a lot of hours in doing so). Avoid.

Last but not least, it was time to reproduce thepoohcontinuum's remarkable results on the store's 32LD450. There are three things I noticed. First, HDMI1 seemed to be broken. The laptop found it, but the TV didn't see any input, even upon manual selection. Second, it was in demo mode. Aha, I said. Perhaps demo mode breaks inputs. But no, turning that off didn't fix the HDMI port. It was dead. No matter. HDMI2 was available and it worked.

Now imagine my surprise when I determined that this 32LD450 failed the 4:4:4 test!

Closer inspection revealed the only variable I could locate which may have been the contributing factor: It was not S-IPS.

Now let's add some more variables to the formula. Quite unnerved by my discoveries, I bowed to the inevitable and bought a 42". With the new problem of seemingly unpredictable 4:4:4 support firmly in mind, I decided to first risk the 42LD520, despite my very own tests on said model. Why? Because I have three devices I intend to hook up via HDMI and I sure as heck don't relish the idea of manually switching HDMI cables whenever it's time to use one or another. The 450 has only two HDMI ports. The 520 has three.

Well, sure enough, the 520 fails 4:4:4. Surprise, surprise. The only thing left to do was take it back and get the 450.

Anyway, it seems the 42LD450 (S-IPS) passes the 4:4:4 test. And the input lag is just fine. Not a CRT but as close as one can really hope for these days. I won't bother measuring it. No further amount of research is going to conjure up a better PC/gaming/movie TV this year. I've done the works. And I have to say it looks beautiful. I am still beside myself that I've arrived at a mostly satisfying result and I can henceforth enjoy the fruit of my effort. Three days ago I was convinced that I would be using this CRT for another year.

So let's think about these results, starting with that 32LD450 anomaly. What happened? Was the non-IPS panel to blame? Are there perhaps different guts (besides panels) in two units of the same model?

And then there's the unavoidable evidence strongly suggesting that my original conjecture may have been correct: If the LG has any sort of 120Hz support, it fails 4:4:4. 60Hz, good. 120Hz, bad. It remains to be seen how a 60Hz xxLE5300 would fare. Those don't seem to be kept in AV stores. Taking another look at the LG comparison chart, the 450 series has a 4ms response time while anything higher has at least 2.4. Maybe that variable is the true telling factor; perhaps the subtly faster response time is achieved at the specific cost of color resolution.

Awesome, another happy xxLD450 owner

Based on our collective findings and first-hand experiences, in my opinion, the xxLD450 series (w/ S-IPS panel) is the best 60Hz LCD of the 2010 year.

Also, if you need more hdmi ports, have you considered getting a hdmi switch? Like the ones found here http://www.monoprice.com/products/su...01&cp_id=10110. Kind of stinks you'll have another "box" on your entertainment center, but sure beats swapping hdmi cables/connections for different devices.

Hang on. You mean we have to talk about input lag? In this thread? ;p

Really, though, I would imagine that when it comes to a switch for a digital stream, one would have to tread very carefully indeed. Theory be darned, I guarantee you at least some of those devices introduce lag. Who's up for playing "Musical FedEx" with Monoprice?

I remember reading a thread somewhere on this forum (the game section?) that said the monoprice hdmi switches didn't add any lag. But I don't recall seeing actual measurements, so maybe the guy wasn't sensitive to lag. But you have to admit, "not having enough hdmi ports" is a problem that can be fixed, unlike high input lag or lack of 4:4:4 color support. We can't be too greedy now

Btw, are you still using my picture settings I sent you? If not, what did you change?

well that settles it, i am going to best buy tomorrow to replace my westinghouse with a 42LD450

I will post results after i get it ... just to make sure you guys didn't just hit the lottery with those tvs lol