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Input lag wars!, post your input lag results of your LCD display here for reference - Page 106

post #3151 of 4030
hi again,
I was messin' with settings on my graphics card and I found some options for pixel format in Catalyst Control Center, see pictures. hope this might help.
Again, TV is Viera TX-l32e30e, AMD Radeon 6950, CCC v.11.9
LL
LL
post #3152 of 4030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Def Fan View Post

Depends what you call "OK", but I'm doubting it's as low as those numbers you found. I find it odd that Sony has one of the biggest selling gaming consoles, yet they don't seem to ever prioritize low input lag in ANY of their TVs.

Who does?
post #3153 of 4030
This was a really rough test, but I visited a Best Buy today where they had an LG 32LK450 and a Toshiba 32FT2U set up right next to each other, displaying the same content. I went through the settings on both TVs, enabled the Game mode on the LG (I couldn't find one on the Toshiba, though that doesn't mean there isn't one), and disabled all the processing I could find on both. I then simply watched the two TVs and noticed that the Toshiba actually changed scenes slightly faster than the LG.

I was under the impression that the LG LK450 series LCDs had some of the lowest input lag available today, but perhaps this Toshiba was faster?
post #3154 of 4030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh7289 View Post

This was a really rough test, but I visited a Best Buy today where they had an LG 32LK450 and a Toshiba 32FT2U set up right next to each other, displaying the same content. I went through the settings on both TVs, enabled the Game mode on the LG (I couldn't find one on the Toshiba, though that doesn't mean there isn't one), and disabled all the processing I could find on both. I then simply watched the two TVs and noticed that the Toshiba actually changed scenes slightly faster than the LG.

I was under the impression that the LG LK450 series LCDs had some of the lowest input lag available today, but perhaps this Toshiba was faster?

From what i understand, Toshiba's lower end sets were usually competitive with decently low input lag + low ghosting on their cinespeed panels.

Hopefully someone who owns one can test it for us.

Edit: not sure if it has the better Cinespeed panel, hmmm.
post #3155 of 4030
Not surprising, Panasonic, LG, Sharp and Toshiba have been the leading brands for low input lag in recent years, and since this year's LGs are slower than last year's, it could be they're near the bottom of that short list anymore. Anywhere on that list is a good place to be if you care at all about customers that game though.
post #3156 of 4030
Darn, things change so fast. Has anyone done some real testing on the LK450 series? Because it could be that the LK450 is still just as fast as the LD450, but that that Toshiba 32FT2U I found was faster yet, you know?
post #3157 of 4030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh7289 View Post

Darn, things change so fast. Has anyone done some real testing on the LK450 series? Because it could be that the LK450 is still just as fast as the LD450, but that that Toshiba 32FT2U I found was faster yet, you know?

Probably wishful thinking. All this yr's LGs I've seen tested are slower than last yr's.
post #3158 of 4030
This is a very useful thread for gamers. I'm still checking this thread every few seconds whenever I come across a new model to see if it's mentioned here (looking to buy a TV currently).

Is there a complete table somewhere with input lag numbers for all models mentioned here? I'd be epic
post #3159 of 4030
I am looking to replace a panny 58" plasma. I will closely follow this thread.
post #3160 of 4030
I just wanted to share that www.hdtvtest.co.uk has the the Sony EX723(Uk model for EX720 I believe) measured at 21 ms input lag in game mode. I'm not sure if this has already been posted but this seems like it may be one of the better gaming tvs out this year.
post #3161 of 4030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michaelll View Post

I just wanted to share that www.hdtvtest.co.uk has the the Sony EX723(Uk model for EX720 I believe) measured at 21 ms input lag in game mode. I'm not sure if this has already been posted but this seems like it may be one of the better gaming tvs out this year.

I wonder if they use a laptop for the comparison, because if so we would add an additional 10ms to the posted number, making it 31ms (2 frames) which sounds about right and would still make it a great gaming TV.

I briefly searched the site, but i couldn't figure out their testing method nor the display they used for the comparison. If i stumble upon the answer in the meantime i'll be sure to post it here.

Not many mid or high level TV's have been tested, so if the Sony EX720 truly has 1 1/2 to 2 frames of lag then many gamers prayers will have been answered imho.

Thank you for posting that info.

Edit: Apparently they do compare it to a CRT display, nice...
post #3162 of 4030
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjetski71 View Post

I wonder if they use a laptop for the comparison, because if so we would add an additional 10ms to the posted number, making it 31ms (2 frames) which sounds about right and would still make it a great gaming TV.

I briefly searched the site, but i couldn't figure out their testing method nor the display they used for the comparison. If i stumble upon the answer in the meantime i'll be sure to post it here.

Not many mid or high level TV's have been tested, so if the Sony EX720 truly has 1 1/2 to 2 frames of lag then many gamers prayers will have been answered imho.

Thank you for posting that info.

Your welcome for the info. The site actually states that it is compared to a lag free crt so I'm guessing that they are using a crt for their testing. They also measured the Sony NX723 at 33ms which is still pretty good. It seems like Sony's mid to high end tvs (EX720 and up)may be the way to go for input lag this year.
post #3163 of 4030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michaelll View Post

Your welcome for the info. The site actually states that it is compared to a lag free crt so I'm guessing that they are using a crt for their testing. They also measured the Sony NX723 at 33ms which is still pretty good. It seems like Sony's mid to high end tvs (EX720 and up)may be the way to go for input lag this year.


Unless I hear new/better info for another TV set, it seems the Sony EX, NX, HX series may be the LARGE (55+) LCD gaming sets to get this year. The picture settings may even be fully adjustable in game mode, unlike other brands. The NX was tested on this site and found to be at 40ms. There is a "rumor" that the Sony models will display full 444 color without subsampling, meaning a clear display for PC use. There are even more rumors that it is a fast (low lag) in other modes besides 1080p. Overall, there seems to be WAY too much vague info this year for large LCD's, and not a lot of testing being done. I am going to be purchasing one (or more) TV's for testing soon. If anyone has that SMTT program.. (or whatever its called) please send me a note.
post #3164 of 4030
Perfect. This is the exact TV model I have been homing in for the last week.

The Sony EX720 (or EX725). So far everywhere I read they say in Game Mode in the input lag is very acceptable (surely not like 5ms like the Toshiba Regza ZV60 but 30ms is pretty damn good for most gamers).

For those of you wondering what the difference between EX725 and EX720. The information is extremely scarce, but from searching various german sites and forums I've concluded that the only difference is the EX725 has a triple tuner (DVB-C, DVC-T and DVB-S2) while the EX720 only has DVB-C and DVB-T. The price difference for just this is enormous IMO. Therefore the EX720 is the overall much better deal (unless DVB-S2 is somehow super important to you).

I think this is the TV I'm going to get, hopefully I will find it in my local store and avoid buying it from Amazon (because returning it. etc in case of problems (god forbid) would probably be more difficult).

Also in 2011, the EX720 seems to be the best for gaming in terms of Picture Quality(PQ) + low input lag. Other TVs I've researched have lower input lag (meaning better) but the PQ sucks. EX720 seems to have very good PQ for the price although everyone says the black levels on the EX720 is still kinda bad but I think it's more of a Connoisseur/Expert opinion and it shouldn't be a deal-breaker for most gamers.
post #3165 of 4030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teknomancer View Post

(surely not like 5ms like the Toshiba Regza ZV60 ...)

Sounds like a panel refresh spec which is just one piece of the puzzle and not the cumulative total.

I'd be seriously shocked if it wasn't because i've yet to see a MFR publish an actual input lag spec.


Otherwise yes, the tea leaves seem to be pointing to the Sony for a mid/higher model TV.
post #3166 of 4030
Quote:
Originally Posted by sjetski71 View Post

Sounds like a panel refresh spec which is just one piece of the puzzle and not the cumulative total.

I'd be seriously shocked if it wasn't because i've yet to see a MFR publish an actual input lag spec.


Otherwise yes, the tea leaves seem to be pointing to the Sony for a mid/higher model TV.

No, see this post: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post18866823

That's where I got the information about the Toshiba.
post #3167 of 4030
I don't see any sense to Sony putting all that tech into a mere 32" set though regarding their KDL-32EX720. I don't want to have to buy into LED back lighting, 3D, 240 motion processing and a plethora of net features just to get low input lag in a 32" set. Many salesmen I've talked to have argued that motion processing and 3D don't have nearly as much effect on a 32" anyway, and after viewing them in store I have to agree. I also feel LED lighting makes TVs less accurate in color.

That said, a 120Hz native panel refresh is kinda nice as a monitor, whether you use the 3D or not. I have to think though that at a best price of $808 for the KDL-32EX720, the Panasonic TC-L32U3 for $367 with Alpha IPS panel and a bit lower input lag is the better deal, and I don't agree at all that it's way worse in image quality. Once you factor in the IPS panel and lack of LED, it's probably more accurate in color, and 4:4:4 means nothing unless you're viewing red text.

A rather unfavorable review on the 46EX720 just for a bit more perspective. Terrible out of the box colors with loads of saturation and black crushing. Even after calibration blues are too saturated and you still get a loss of detail in dark scenes. Think I'll stick with Panasonic.
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.p...&id=1303374989
post #3168 of 4030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teknomancer View Post

Also in 2011, the EX720 seems to be the best for gaming in terms of Picture Quality(PQ) + low input lag. Other TVs I've researched have lower input lag (meaning better) but the PQ sucks. EX720 seems to have very good PQ for the price although everyone says the black levels on the EX720 is still kinda bad but I think it's more of a Connoisseur/Expert opinion and it shouldn't be a deal-breaker for most gamers.

Every professional review I have seen on the EX720 states that it has very good black levels. I have just heard from a video review that the type of screen used for this tv creates a lack of depth to the picture or something around those lines. The NX720 is supposed to fix this and is very highly rated, but for some reason seems to have higher input lag measurements. From what I have seen the input lag is still decent on the NX720, just not as good as the EX720, which may turn out to be the best all around gaming lcd this year. I'm definitely considering this tv, and I am hoping that Best Buy has a PS3 bundle deal with this tv this coming December.
post #3169 of 4030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Def Fan View Post

I don't see any sense to Sony putting all that tech into a mere 32" set though regarding their KDL-32EX720. I don't want to have to buy into LED back lighting, 3D, 240 motion processing and a plethora of net features just to get low input lag in a 32" set. Many salesmen I've talked to have argued that motion processing and 3D don't have nearly as much effect on a 32" anyway, and after viewing them in store I have to agree. I also feel LED lighting makes TVs less accurate in color.

That said, a 120Hz native panel refresh is kinda nice as a monitor, whether you use the 3D or not. I have to think though that at a best price of $808 for the KDL-32EX720, the Panasonic TC-L32U3 for $367 with Alpha IPS panel and a bit lower input lag is the better deal, and I don't agree at all that it's way worse in image quality. Once you factor in the IPS panel and lack of LED, it's probably more accurate in color, and 4:4:4 means nothing unless you're viewing red text.

A rather unfavorable review on the 46EX720 just for a bit more perspective. Terrible out of the box colors with loads of saturation and black crushing. Even after calibration blues are too saturated and you still get a loss of detail in dark scenes. Think I'll stick with Panasonic.
http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.p...&id=1303374989

The Panasonic tv looks like a good fit for a monitor, and I'm sure the price difference at 32'' wouldn't justify the extra 3D from what you are saying. The review that you have here for the EX720 is actually favorable as it states in the conclusion of the review itself, "All in all Sony EX720 is a good TV and one to keep in mind when you are searching for mid-range TVs." I am unsure why this site did not mention anything about the input lag of this tv as they usually do, but they speak of the response time being a very strong area for this tv and how it has excellent motion handling, which makes for a good gaming tv.
post #3170 of 4030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michaelll View Post

The Panasonic tv looks like a good fit for a monitor, and I'm sure the price difference at 32'' wouldn't justify the extra 3D from what you are saying. The review that you have here for the EX720 is actually favorable as it states in the conclusion of the review itself, "All in all Sony EX720 is a good TV and one to keep in mind when you are searching for mid-range TVs." I am unsure why this site did not mention anything about the input lag of this tv as they usually do, but they speak of the response time being a very strong area for this tv and how it has excellent motion handling, which makes for a good gaming tv.

Actually you need to look more at the detailed remarks and test results than the final verdict to gain a full perspective. If you'll note in the rating chart they based that final verdict on primarily a Home Cinema target group. They said in gaming much of the dark detail was lost. Also note that beside poor wide angle viewing, even the 3D doesn't look 3D if you so much as tilt your head a bit. I expect more than that for the price charged, esp when you look at even the final calibrated results still showing the blue spectrum unacceptably high. Way past 4 on Delta E.

You need to factor in more than just how good the black level is too. Deep blacks don't mean a whole lot if they come with the tradeoff of severely crushed blacks, making it impossible to distinguish much detail in scenes with lots of dark colors. What you really need to look for in a good TV after you've narrowed down your choices to ones with acceptable IQ, is how well balanced it is. I passed on last year's Panasonic TC-L37D2 because of it's black crushing, it was very noticeable. By the time you tune out black crushing, the blacks are no longer deep black, they're a dark grey.

Conversely if you want all the bells and whistles the KDL-32EX720 offers, Panasonic's TC-L32DT30 has pretty much the same features, has received stellar reviews, is lower in input lag, and is industry leading in 3D performance, yet can be had as low as $760 online. Oh, and keep in mind the 32U3 is NOT 120Hz, it's 60Hz, but again, I argue whether a good 60Hz 32" really needs 120Hz, except for 3D applications. Always compare 120Hz to 60Hz in store to see if you really notice any differences in movies, because in games, you probably won't, esp on a 32".

If money were no object and I were convinced the next models would not significantly overshadow it or be better in value, I'd opt for the TC-L32DT30, but I can't help think the 32U3 is a better way to go. I've heard many testimonials from Panasonic TC-L32S1 owners that say it's excellent for gaming, and it doesn't have 120Hz, actual or processed. I've also seen first hand that the only time I can really detect 120Hz vs 60Hz in store, is when they run those demo loops where text rolls extremely fast across the bottom of the screen just to try and convince customers they need a more expensive TV.
post #3171 of 4030
You'll have to let us know how the Panasonic works out for you. I haven't seen many reviews on the tv yet and would be interested to see how it is. As far as the Panasonic DT30, according to http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk, the EX723 is 10ms faster input lag wise than the DT30. www.flatpanelshd.com has the DT30 measured at the same input lag as http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk which is 31ms vs. the EX723 at 21ms at hdtvtest.co.uk.
post #3172 of 4030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teknomancer View Post

No, see this post: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post18866823

That's where I got the information about the Toshiba.

Ahh, posted by our famous Italian input lag site, the results are usable but they don't account for the display lag of the laptop they use and apparently they have windows aero turned on. Long story short, you'll probably have to add 15ms on top of their results, if not a tiny bit more. Still looks like a winner to me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by AABBCCAA View Post

They are using a Notebook for their tests, and windows aero seems to be activated in those pictures.
On top of that, they are using a simple flash based timer and only take 3 pictures for each mode.
Might as well roll a dice to see which display performs the best.

^^^^^ This is the post right below the guy that you linked with the input lag results.
post #3173 of 4030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michaelll View Post

You'll have to let us know how the Panasonic works out for you. I haven't seen many reviews on the tv yet and would be interested to see how it is. As far as the Panasonic DT30, according to http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk, the EX723 is 10ms faster input lag wise than the DT30. www.flatpanelshd.com has the DT30 measured at the same input lag as http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk which is 31ms vs. the EX723 at 21ms at hdtvtest.co.uk.

I'd love to believe it... but 21ms seems unusually low. DigitalVersus measured the 55ex723 at 66ms. Which seems too high in light of other reviewer and user experiences, but who do we believe?

I hope to get some testing in on Sony sets in the next couple weeks.

Where is that SMTT?!
post #3174 of 4030
Is there an organized list somewhere of current tv's with their input lag ratings? My 2010 Sharp Quattron just bit the dust so now I have to read thru all these input lag threads once again. See a lot of model suggestions but most of them are out of production and have been phased out.
post #3175 of 4030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Michaelll View Post

As far as the Panasonic DT30, according to http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk, the EX723 is 10ms faster input lag wise than the DT30. www.flatpanelshd.com has the DT30 measured at the same input lag as http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk which is 31ms vs. the EX723 at 21ms at hdtvtest.co.uk.

Sorry, but I don't blelieve that at all about the DT30's input lag. The first two results shown on that set varied from only 10-16ms. I would much sooner doubt that the EX720s only have 21ms lag, just not typical of Sony.

My guess is the more accurate numbers are around 16ms for the DT30, and 30-40ms for the EX720, and this isn't just based on a couple of contrasting reviews, this is based on the way both brands have been consistently making their sets for the last few years, esp Panasonic, whom have varied the least in input lag, while other brands like LG slide upward in lag. If ANY of the Sony sets had that much drastically lower lag all of a sudden, it would be verified by lots of gamers jumping to buy them. Search the threads here. I think you'll find that most that have bought and tried Sony's wound up with 30-40ms lag at best.
post #3176 of 4030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Def Fan View Post

Actually you need to look more at the detailed remarks and test results than the final verdict to gain a full perspective. If you'll note in the rating chart they based that final verdict on primarily a Home Cinema target group. They said in gaming much of the dark detail was lost. Also note that beside poor wide angle viewing, even the 3D doesn't look 3D if you so much as tilt your head a bit. I expect more than that for the price charged, esp when you look at even the final calibrated results still showing the blue spectrum unacceptably high. Way past 4 on Delta E.

You need to factor in more than just how good the black level is too. Deep blacks don't mean a whole lot if they come with the tradeoff of severely crushed blacks, making it impossible to distinguish much detail in scenes with lots of dark colors. What you really need to look for in a good TV after you've narrowed down your choices to ones with acceptable IQ, is how well balanced it is. I passed on last year's Panasonic TC-L37D2 because of it's black crushing, it was very noticeable. By the time you tune out black crushing, the blacks are no longer deep black, they're a dark grey.

Conversely if you want all the bells and whistles the KDL-32EX720 offers, Panasonic's TC-L32DT30 has pretty much the same features, has received stellar reviews, is lower in input lag, and is industry leading in 3D performance, yet can be had as low as $760 online. Oh, and keep in mind the 32U3 is NOT 120Hz, it's 60Hz, but again, I argue whether a good 60Hz 32" really needs 120Hz, except for 3D applications. Always compare 120Hz to 60Hz in store to see if you really notice any differences in movies, because in games, you probably won't, esp on a 32".

If money were no object and I were convinced the next models would not significantly overshadow it or be better in value, I'd opt for the TC-L32DT30, but I can't help think the 32U3 is a better way to go. I've heard many testimonials from Panasonic TC-L32S1 owners that say it's excellent for gaming, and it doesn't have 120Hz, actual or processed. I've also seen first hand that the only time I can really detect 120Hz vs 60Hz in store, is when they run those demo loops where text rolls extremely fast across the bottom of the screen just to try and convince customers they need a more expensive TV.

I'm looking to buy the 37 or 40 inch model of the EX720. Not 32". So with that in mind, what model Panasonic would you recommend that is 120Hz (or 100 Hz if US) that has equal or better Picture Quality as the Sony and has the same or lower input lag (21 ms) ? I think 120Hz NATIVE LCD refresh rate is pretty important for gaming for larger screens. The http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.p...&id=1314784403 DT30 review doesn't seem to speak very highly of Panasonic DT30 compared to the EX720 in terms of picture quality and color reproduction.

My local store has TONS of Panasonic models, but I don't know which ones are good for gaming at all. Please help I have absolutely no need for 3D, Skype, Internet etc. from my TV (I'll hook up a PS3 to it). So the price I pay for Sony EX720 might be too high considering I never will use those fancy features.
post #3177 of 4030
Quote:
Originally Posted by coolkev99 View Post

I'd love to believe it... but 21ms seems unusually low. DigitalVersus measured the 55ex723 at 66ms. Which seems too high in light of other reviewer and user experiences, but who do we believe?

I hope to get some testing in on Sony sets in the next couple weeks.

Where is that SMTT?!

They never mention that they put it in Game Mode for measuring 66ms. So I really doubt it's 66ms in Game mode, none of the other reviews mentioned this, they all quote 21ms.

This site has an input lag test for EX720, 30ms in game mode: http://www.fullhd.gr/2008-03-14-21-3...20-review.html

But I don't know how accurate the test is, Can any EX720 owner do an input lag test (in Game Mode) to verify :S
post #3178 of 4030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Teknomancer View Post

I'm looking to buy the 37 or 40 inch model of the EX720. Not 32". So with that in mind, what model Panasonic would you recommend that is 120Hz (or 100 Hz if US) that has equal or better Picture Quality as the Sony and has the same or lower input lag (21 ms) ? I think 120Hz NATIVE LCD refresh rate is pretty important for gaming for larger screens. The http://www.flatpanelshd.com/review.p...&id=1314784403 DT30 review doesn't seem to speak very highly of Panasonic DT30 compared to the EX720 in terms of picture quality and color reproduction.

My local store has TONS of Panasonic models, but I don't know which ones are good for gaming at all. Please help I have absolutely no need for 3D, Skype, Internet etc. from my TV (I'll hook up a PS3 to it). So the price I pay for Sony EX720 might be too high considering I never will use those fancy features.

Unfortunately to get 120Hz in that size with Panasonic you're pretty much committed to 3D. On the other hand that means it's also an actual 120Hz panel, vs just fake 120Hz motion processing. The only one they have in that size in 120Hz IS the DT30 37" model.

I really think you're better off comparing the EX720 to the DT30 in store than just via reading reviews though. It's hard to recommend something on more than just personal preferences, and not everyone's preferences are the same.
post #3179 of 4030
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Def Fan View Post

Unfortunately to get 120Hz in that size with Panasonic you're pretty much committed to 3D. On the other hand that means it's also an actual 120Hz panel, vs just fake 120Hz motion processing. The only one they have in that size in 120Hz IS the DT30 37" model.

I really think you're better off comparing the EX720 to the DT30 in store than just via reading reviews though. It's hard to recommend something on more than just personal preferences, and not everyone's preferences are the same.

Fair enough I'll take a look at the DT30 but from judging with prices on Amazon the DT30 is significantly more expensive at this time.

The main thing about reviews is input lag I guess, since I cannot really test this on the stores. So I'll read up on DT30's input lag and then look at both the TVs in the store.

BTW, the EX720 also has a native 120 (or 100) Hz panel as far as I understood. It's only the 240/200Hz MotionFlow that's the frame-generated stuff.
post #3180 of 4030
Does running your video/audio through a receiver add lag? How do must of you hook up external speakers? I'm thinking of setting up a home theater and will have everything running through a reciever unless this is a bad option.

Thanks
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