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Input lag wars!, post your input lag results of your LCD display here for reference - Page 129

post #3841 of 4184
Quote:
Originally Posted by nintygaming View Post

I hate the idea of 4k. Heck, most people don't even have 1080p HDTV's, as most people currently own 720p HDTV's. TV stations don't even broadcast in 1080p, and most people are happy with DVD's upscaled. Heck, even I myself would be perfectly content with a 480i CRT Trinitron or something similar if HD had not ever come out, mainly because I watch my content for the ACTUAL CONTENT and NOT the visuals (although they are nice for sure). I hope and pray that 4k takes 20 years to take off or longer. I don't want to upgrade again and again and again (stupid 8k, 16k, 32k, whatever) when my 720p IPS-Alpha panel still impressive the heck out of me.

As we CRT FP users have discussed that also most blurays arent even 1080p. Most of the time the active image is only 817p or even 800p. So couldnt agree more, however Jo Everypersonnotavsmember will go "4k?! I dont know what that is but it sounds like I need it. Take my monies!!!"
post #3842 of 4184
Quote:
Originally Posted by neonsky View Post

As we CRT FP users have discussed that also most blurays arent even 1080p. Most of the time the active image is only 817p or even 800p. So couldnt agree more, however Jo Everypersonnotavsmember will go "4k?! I dont know what that is but it sounds like I need it. Take my monies!!!"

Yes, the active image is generally less than 1080p due to the fact that most movies are not a true 16:9 image and thus have black bars on the top and bottom. Unless the black bars are actually a part of the image (which may or may not be the case?)
Edited by nintygaming - 1/26/13 at 10:17pm
post #3843 of 4184
I got some bad news guys.

It looks as though that Panasonic's ALPHA IPS panels are a thing of the past. I communicated with avjunkie (Panasonic employee) on the High Def Junkies forums about this recently, and he told me that Panasonic marketed those ALPHA IPS panels to gamers, and gamers didn't buy them. So they changed their plans in 2012 by only using standard IPS panels, which saved them alot of money, but resulted in the first laggy 32" and 37" Panasonic HDTV's. 2-3 frames or more of lag. And now, in 2013, after CES we can see that once again, ALPHA IPS panels are not being used. I asked avjunkie and he confirmed that no ALPHA panels will be used in consumer HDTV's anymore, because as he said, gamers didn't buy them. Panasonic is already loosing tons of money, so what do they care if gamers are forced to stick with their old CRT's? Afterall, most consumers don't play video games anyway.

You see, what made the ALPHA versions so special was not only their faster pixel response, but the fact that they did NOT use RTC chips (Response Time Compensation) in their panels, which resulted in super low input lag. And by super low, I mean less than 13ms for some, and less than 6ms for others (like my L32X1).

What makes the standard IPS panels NOT SO special, is the fact that they DO use RTC chips, which drives up the lag greatly. And the greater the RTC, the greater the lag.


So if you guys still want a Panasonic for its speed, that is a thing of the past. Of course, you will still want to test the lag on them to be sure, but, don't get your hopes up. Things are just looking really bleak for the future for gamers. Are we gamers going to be forced to "accept" input lag as a standard compromise and thus prefer visuals over gameplay? After seeing numerous results from Leo Bodnar's input lag tester showing all those laggy HDTV's......its hard to conclude that a lag-free HDTV future will ever become a reality.

The HDTV era has brought more headaches and aggravation and confusion than joy and pleasure for gamers (and if you don't think 3-4 or even 2 frames of lag is a problem, then you have forgotten what its like to play a game with instant, tight response. If you were to compare the same twitchy game on a CRT to a 2-3 frame HDTV, you WILL see a difference and will NOT understand how you ever thought lag was acceptable). While Input Lag is the biggest issue, we still have to worry about black levels, motion blur (which still exists even in the best plasmas), color bleeding, backlight bleeding, proper scaling, backlight type, panel type, panel lottery, brightness in a bright room (plasma issue), clouding, and many more issues which I haven't taken the time to learn about nor care about.

Long live the CRT.
Edited by nintygaming - 1/12/13 at 12:17pm
post #3844 of 4184
Nintygaming.

So do you think during game production producers and publishers are going to start instituting a "latency" or "lag" calibration tool in games if tv producers continue down this path? An example would be like the ones in rhythm based games.
post #3845 of 4184
Quote:
Originally Posted by neonsky View Post

Nintygaming.
So do you think during game production producers and publishers are going to start instituting a "latency" or "lag" calibration tool in games if tv producers continue down this path? An example would be like the ones in rhythm based games.

This is something I have wondered myself. But most game developers use PC monitors for development, so I think that most of them are out of touch with reality in regards to this input lag demon that will not die. Also, I've read that even those calibration tools in the rhythm games are not 100% accurate.

What someone needs to do is create a lag eliminator. Something that would have an HDMI input for the console, and a HDMI output for the TV. It would basically speed up the input enough to compensate for the lag of the TV. It could have a button on it to adjust how fast you want the input to be sped up. Like say if your HDTV lags by 50ms, you could adjust the input of the device to speed up the input of the console by 50ms, then your TV will slow it down by 50ms, and bang...you have perfect snyc.

If someone can create a device to measure lag, then surely they can make something to eliminate it altogether. Its not rocket science. People should not be forced to accept "lag" as a standard. We never had this problem prior to the HD era. The HD era has created more problems than solutions.
post #3846 of 4184
Quote:
Originally Posted by amisfit View Post

That's too bad. I don't think I'd want to spend much more than $100 on a portable input lag testing device. Is there no other cheaper alternative that you could use in a device of your own? I'd certainly be interested in buying something you developed in the future. It probably won't be too long before 1080p is as obsolete as 480p is now with all these 4K resolution supporting TV's coming out.
IF I would do something in the future I'd do it as good and as future-proof as possible. The development device would also be more expensive than the final product but as usual: Development takes a lot of time and some money if you want to do it right.
I'd need a FPGA that is able to deliver enough LVDS-Signal bandwidth to drive the corresponding DisplayPort chip that is able to output high-res video signals...
post #3847 of 4184
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasSMTT View Post

IF I would do something in the future I'd do it as good and as future-proof as possible. The development device would also be more expensive than the final product but as usual: Development takes a lot of time and some money if you want to do it right.
I'd need a FPGA that is able to deliver enough LVDS-Signal bandwidth to drive the corresponding DisplayPort chip that is able to output high-res video signals...

I'm pretty sure that Leo's Input Lag Tester invention is just as accurate if not more accurate than the SMTT tool. So I don't think you need to invent anything to be honest, as it wouldn't improve much on what Leo has provided us with. By that I mean, if Leo's tester shows that a HDTV has 20ms of lag, I doubt that it would be "way off" the mark by like 4ms or something and thus the TV would actually be 16ms.
post #3848 of 4184
Quote:
Originally Posted by nintygaming View Post

What someone needs to do is create a lag eliminator. Something that would have an HDMI input for the console, and a HDMI output for the TV. It would basically speed up the input enough to compensate for the lag of the TV. It could have a button on it to adjust how fast you want the input to be sped up. Like say if your HDTV lags by 50ms, you could adjust the input of the device to speed up the input of the console by 50ms, then your TV will slow it down by 50ms, and bang...you have perfect snyc.

If someone can create a device to measure lag, then surely they can make something to eliminate it altogether. Its not rocket science. People should not be forced to accept "lag" as a standard. We never had this problem prior to the HD era. The HD era has created more problems than solutions.

I thought a company called HDfury has already created various devices to eliminate input lag? They're basically adapters that go in between the source and the display.
post #3849 of 4184
Quote:
Originally Posted by nintygaming View Post

What someone needs to do is create a lag eliminator. Something that would have an HDMI input for the console, and a HDMI output for the TV. It would basically speed up the input enough to compensate for the lag of the TV. It could have a button on it to adjust how fast you want the input to be sped up. Like say if your HDTV lags by 50ms, you could adjust the input of the device to speed up the input of the console by 50ms, then your TV will slow it down by 50ms, and bang...you have perfect snyc.

Wait. Which kind of lag are you talking about here: the sound and video sync, or the video & your real world interaction (gaming) sync?

For sound, there are such devices you mention. For the lag from gaming.....the twitch of your hand vs. the result you see on the screen....no way Jose. The lag doesn't come from the input being too slow, it's from the display lagging behind what the source is sending it. You can't push your hand movements into a time warp 50ms into the past so that the display then lines up with what you feel your hand doing.

For things like movies and tv where there are lip sync issues (video & sound), there are 3 primary approaches for re-syncing the SOUND with video.
  • Have the TV send the audio back, either embedded within the HDMI, or through an output port on the TV. This sound will be synced to match the display lag from the tv. In other words, don't send the audio directly from the source to the receiver...
  • OR, use a receiver that can dial in its own delay, so it can take it directly from the source...
  • OR, use a device in between the source and the receiver to delay the sound (I've only seen a few of these for some reason).


There is no analogous device for gaming input lag. You need a TV that has a gaming mode or similar so that it can bypass as much of the time consuming display hooey as possible.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Fusion View Post

I thought a company called HDfury has already created various devices to eliminate input lag? They're basically adapters that go in between the source and the display.

I need clarification for which you're trying to solve. Sound is solvable. If you saw such devices, they're almost certainly for the video/sound syncing, not for anything that helps with video game interaction.
post #3850 of 4184
Can anyone at all comment on this?


https://www.google.com/search?q=++%09Sharp+AQUOS+LC-39LE440U&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&client=firefox-a

They are selling these under $400 now and I could use a 38" PC monitor but I need it to have 1-2 frames of lag because we're talking mouse-use via DVI to HDMI.
I believe this set has a PC input as well (VGA) but I'd hate to have to use it.

My sharp from 2 years ago is amazing in game mode, but it had the "Vyper Drive" game mode.

The new Sharp's I believe don't have this, and some reviews of last year's Sharp sets indicate they've thrown in the input lag towel.

Anyone?
post #3851 of 4184
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Wait. Which kind of lag are you talking about here: the sound and video sync, or the video & your real world interaction (gaming) sync?

For sound, there are such devices you mention. For the lag from gaming.....the twitch of your hand vs. the result you see on the screen....no way Jose. The lag doesn't come from the input being too slow, it's from the display lagging behind what the source is sending it. You can't push your hand movements into a time warp 50ms into the past so that the display then lines up with what you feel your hand doing.

For things like movies and tv where there are lip sync issues (video & sound), there are 3 primary approaches for re-syncing the SOUND with video.

You need a TV that has a gaming mode or similar so that it can bypass as much of the time consuming display hooey as possible.
.

I don't think you've noticed that MOST so called "Game Modes" are literally crap. Very, VERY few "Game Modes" can get the lag down to even 2-3 frames...and EVEN FEWER can get down to 1 frame.

I think your in the wrong thread, because we are most certainly not referring to sound/video sync issue. Allow me to explain very simply. You press the "Jump" button, and Mario jumps 50ms later on screen.....THATS "Input Lag"......THAT'S what we are discussing in here. What is puzzling to me is why all of a sudden people are posting sound/video sync issues in a thread that has nothing to do with sound/video sync. I think we are getting trolled.......

And as for the hypothetical device I mentioned, I never said anything about putting my hand movements 50ms into the past. That would create MORE lag. I was talking about a device that speeds up the input....why? Because the TV slows down the input. If your HDTV has 50ms of lag, then use a device that speeds up the console's input by 50ms, then plug your console into that device, then plug the device into your TV. Simple math will tell you that the end result...a perfect match, no lag.

And I don't think that HDFury does this.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadRusch View Post

....... and some reviews of last year's Sharp sets indicate they've thrown in the input lag towel.

Just like most, if not all other TV manufacturers. When Panasonic no longer cares about low lag displays, then you know other TV makers are going to be worse. So basically, all TV manufacturers have thrown in the input lag towel. Why? Because they all recognize that Plasma and LCD are way too immature of a tech to give consumer instant CRT-Like response times, so they add enough post-processing (like RTC, etc) to improve pixel response time, and this post-processing creates input lag. Every year - instead of trying to actually improve the panels themselves - they add more and more post-processing to improve motion and clarity, and thus add more and more input lag as a side effect. My suggestion would be to ether improve the Plasma and LCD panels WITHOUT gimmicks (post processing), or admit that Plasma and LCD are crap to begin with and use only OLED technology (which "supposedly" has no motion issues, and thus would not utilize any post-processing....however, I'm sure that OLED manufacturers will find a way to screw that up too and once again....and create input lag, haha...). Solution? Become a retro gamer and only game on Trinitron CRT's! Might as well anyway, when you consider how boring modern games are due to more and more bloat that turns the games into interactive movies/novels. "Fun" games, are hard to come by these days unless you buy first party Nintendo games (3rd party games like Rayman Origins are the exception, not the rule).

Anyway, maybe all hope is not lost yet, and maybe OLED with its extreme clarity and excellent motion will not require hardly any post-processing and thus give us low-lag HDTV's. But if your wanting low-lag LCD or Plasma HDTV's, then good luck on finding one....your gonna need more than luck though.
Edited by nintygaming - 1/12/13 at 12:13pm
post #3852 of 4184
ninty you're talking about a magical device that would read your mind 50ms ahead of time. tgm was trying to be nice and explain to you that there is no such magical device.

Input from your hand to the controller and from the controller to the console is already around 0ms as can be proven with a CRT and a camera. You can't "speed up" input unless you have some magical time warp device.

nobody is trolling you.
post #3853 of 4184
Quote:
Originally Posted by beerninja View Post

ninty you're talking about a magical device that would read your mind 50ms ahead of time. tgm was trying to be nice and explain to you that there is no such magical device.

Input from your hand to the controller and from the controller to the console is already around 0ms as can be proven with a CRT and a camera. You can't "speed up" input unless you have some magical time warp device.

nobody is trolling you.

Ok I see what your saying. I just figured that it might be possible for a device to take the output of someone's PS3 for example, and process the signal via using a "Fast-Forward" method, like a video game emulator like SNES9x or FCEU. I don't know how that could work, but I didn't think it would be impossible, but then again, I'm not an electronics genius.
Edited by nintygaming - 1/15/13 at 1:02pm
post #3854 of 4184
Quote:
Originally Posted by nintygaming View Post

Ok I see what your saying. I just figured that it might be possible for a device to take the output of someone's PS3 for example, and process the signal via using a "Fast-Forward" method. I don't know how that could work, but I didn't think it would be impossible, but then again, I'm not an electronics genius.

No one is asking you to be an electronics genius. It's in no way a requirement to be an electronics genius to understand the following:

Real World:
  1. You move your hand
  2. Your game console draws a frame
  3. The TV takes it in
  4. X ms later it shows up on the screen

There is nothing you can do about the time between the frame arriving at the TV and the TV displaying it, unless the TV has the ability to mitigate that delay (usually called game mode).

There is no "Fast-Forward" method that could possibly work here. How could it?

Like this? Magic World:
  1. You move your hand
  2. Your game console draws a frame
  3. It is pushed X ms back in time by some box
  4. The TV takes it in
  5. X ms later it shows up on the screen

See?
post #3855 of 4184
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

No one is asking you to be an electronics genius. It's in no way a requirement to be an electronics genius to understand the following:

Real World:
  1. You move your hand
  2. Your game console draws a frame
  3. The TV takes it in
  4. X ms later it shows up on the screen

There is nothing you can do about the time between the frame arriving at the TV and the TV displaying it, unless the TV has the ability to mitigate that delay (usually called game mode).

There is no "Fast-Forward" method that could possibly work here. How could it?

Like this? Magic World:
  1. You move your hand
  2. Your game console draws a frame
  3. It is pushed X ms back in time by some box
  4. The TV takes it in
  5. X ms later it shows up on the screen

See?

Well, it just further confirms that most, heck probably 99.5% of all HDTV's will not give us the desired 16ms or less (not even in Game Mode), not now, not ever unless OLED shows up with almost no post-processing.
Edited by nintygaming - 1/22/13 at 2:47pm
post #3856 of 4184
Quote:
Originally Posted by amisfit View Post

Yes, please keep us posted on that Panasonic. I'm hoping it's a good one!

I tested my Panasonic TC-L42E50 using Leo Bodnar's input lag tool.

I have good news and bad news.

The bad news is that it tests out at exactly and consistently at 41.5 ms with GAME mode ON and all video processing turned OFF. All input lag tests before this have measured TVs as compared to a CRT monitor, and I do believe I once read that CRT monitors actually do have a 5-10 ms lag vs an oscilloscope... Nevertheless, that's going to put this TV into the 2-3 frames range. I certainly didn't feel 3 frames when using my computer mouse, so I must be rusty compared to a couple years ago when I played tournament-level Smash Bros Melee.

The good news is that I've confirmed that Redmere active HDMI cables do not impart any input lag. For those that haven't heard, Redmere is a company that makes a tiny signal-amplifying chip that is housed inside an HDMI connector. This allows them to use a very thin cable to transmit HDMI signal over very longe ranges. Traditionally, HDMI cables have been fairly large and bulky, and they have been limited by the length in which you can use them (e.g., you can't buy a 60 ft HDMI cable, as far as I know). Note that Redmere cables are directional: you can't just plug either end into the TV. There is a SOURCE end and a DISPLAY end. The DISPLAY end houses the Redmere chip which will amplify a weak signal from the source into a more powerful signal which is then transmitted to the TV. The worry was that this signal amplifying could impart some latency into the signal-transmission process. Leo Bodnar's lag tester shows that if it does add any latency, it is less than 0.1 ms. My Panasonic TV measured 41.5 ms both with a Monoprice Redmere cable (15 ft) and a traditional HDMI cable (3 ft).

EDIT: Also, I can't test my Dell 2312HM for input lag because it doesn't have an HDMI port... only display port. I suppose I could buy an adapter, but I assume that I'll need an active adapter (to convert Displayport spec signal to HDMI) which may or may not cause lag. TFT Central already found that it had very little lag, so I'm not going to bother.
Edited by masamunecyrus - 1/10/13 at 10:01pm
post #3857 of 4184
Quote:
Originally Posted by beerninja View Post

Just got back from Frys. I took my new Leo Bodnar input lag tester (1080p version)

Here are some results I found:

LG65LM6200:
127.8 ms standard mode
31.2 game mode

LG55LM8600
Signal not detected from tester frown.gif

Mits WD-73740 (DLP)
42.1 ms (there is no game mode)

Samsung UN55ES7500
Signal not detected

Samsung UN55ES8000
115.8 ms standard mode
49.4 game mode

Sony KDL60EX720
Signal not detected

Panny U50
27.1 ms standard mode
(I had to go, didn't test game mode if there was one)

I also tried to test my lagless Hitachi 51SWX20B (CRT RPTV) by plugging the tester in the aux in of my receiver hoping it would downconvert the signal from 1080p to 1080i but I just got static so I wasn't able to test that.

I'm going to e-mail Leo or John to find out what would cause certain TVs not to detect the signal from the tester...

I'm noticing that a lot of these values are fairly high, higher than previous reviews done without the lag tester have claimed vs a CRT or other "lagless" monitor. However, I assume Bodnar's device to be the most accurate lag tester to-date, so I hope we'll have a revolution in lag testing with this new thing. :-)
post #3858 of 4184
Quote:
Originally Posted by amisfit View Post

That's too bad. I don't think I'd want to spend much more than $100 on a portable input lag testing device. Is there no other cheaper alternative that you could use in a device of your own? I'd certainly be interested in buying something you developed in the future. It probably won't be too long before 1080p is as obsolete as 480p is now with all these 4K resolution supporting TV's coming out.

That's fine; this lag tester will still be relevant. If 4K TVs can't upscale 1080p pictures without significant lag, I don't want them, anyways. I'm going to be playing games that only run at a maximum of 1080p for the forseeable future.
post #3859 of 4184
Quote:
Originally Posted by masamunecyrus View Post

I tested my Panasonic TC-L42E50 using Leo Bodnar's input lag tool.

I have good news and bad news.

The bad news is that it tests out at exactly and consistently at 41.5 ms with GAME mode ON and all video processing turned OFF. All input lag tests before this have measured TVs as compared to a CRT monitor, and I do believe I once read that CRT monitors actually do have a 5-10 ms lag vs an oscilloscope... Nevertheless, that's going to put this TV into the 2-3 frames range. I certainly didn't feel 3 frames when using my computer mouse, so I must be rusty compared to a couple years ago when I played tournament-level Smash Bros Melee.

This is sad....another Game Mode that is not good enough. But then again, Panasonic stopped caring about low lag displays after 2011. Nevertheless, most Game Modes are jokes. However, I'm still hoping that OLED will provide us with low-lag....so that we are not all forced to use tiny PC monitors or old CRT's.

(What you read about CRT monitors having 5-10ms of lag is no doubt wrong. Unless they are HD-CRT...which would have post-processing.)
post #3860 of 4184
Quote:
Originally Posted by nintygaming View Post

I'm pretty sure that Leo's Input Lag Tester invention is just as accurate if not more accurate than the SMTT tool. So I don't think you need to invent anything to be honest, as it wouldn't improve much on what Leo has provided us with. By that I mean, if Leo's tester shows that a HDTV has 20ms of lag, I doubt that it would be "way off" the mark by like 4ms or something and thus the TV would actually be 16ms.
You can't compare a cheap test software to a nice and well built testing device that costs at least 20 times as much, can you?

I don't think that his tool isn't accurate! Please don't misunderstand me!
He did a great job and invented a nice device for testing TV sets.

I would aim at a solution that is made for testing monitors. At several resolutions (720p, 1080p, 1920x1200, 2560x..., up to 4k). Maybe even DP, HDMI and DVI. 8 bit per color and 10 bit per color (at least while using DisplayPort).

Again: Right now I don't plan to do anything. I have a complete new job and there is more than enough work for me to do in that business.
Its just something I'd like to do as a hobby and it's something new.
There is no reason to reinvent the tool that Leo already built. That device is a nice tool and it seems to work as advertised.
But that's a tool that is optimized for TV sets: HDMI and only the resolutions that are usual in this very special case.

SMTT doesn't cost $100 or what ever Leos device costs. It was meant to replace nonsense stopwatches and it was meant for a quick comparison. Much better than the other software solutions (and it still is the best software solution for this kind of measurement) but also much cheaper than any measurement tools - and it is even cheaper than his device.
You get what you pay for. That's a plain and easy rule that is true in this case.

Again, just to get sure that everyone understands me right: Leos device is really nice. I like it, I like the idea he had and we had some contact when he built it. Everyone who likes to spend that much money will get some nice results. Better than what the low-cost software solution "SMTT" can do.
But also limited to HDMI-inputs and supported resolutions.

My "idea" would be different. It would not even want to compete with Leos device, it would be something else. A solution for the people out there, that can't use Leos device (because of different plugs or resolutions on their monitor, etc)
I would really like to play around with a FPGA and how it can drive the DP-transmitter-chip.
I am sorry if you don't like the idea that there is someone who spends his weekends and holidays to develop something that other people would like to use. But please don't tell me what I have to do. That's my business.
post #3861 of 4184
John at the Leo Bodnar site told me that he thinks the signal problem might be fixed if I hold down the button before switching inputs. I've already tried that the last time I was at Frys but I didn't try turning the TV off and then back on again so I might try that for the ones where the signal wasn't detected. I'll also bring some different batteries just in case that was it.

I'll be making a Costco grocery run this weekend so I'll bring the tester with me.
post #3862 of 4184
Sorry for the double, posting, bit It's worth it:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Fusion View Post

I thought a company called HDfury has already created various devices to eliminate input lag? They're basically adapters that go in between the source and the display.
That's ridiculous.

It is impossible to get rid of the input lag by any device.
Input lag is not depending on the signal. It's something that is created inside the electronics of the monitor.
There is nothing like a "input lag" before the video signal passes the plug at the backside of the monitor and there is no way to influence the signal processing inside the monitor by an external plug, adapter, signal conditioner or whatever that should be.

It's just plain data processing and buffering inside the monitor that consumes some time. Some monitors/TV sets don't do much or just do their processing really fast (on the fly) so that there is no real lag at all (~1ms) and there are TV-Sets that buffer at least two frames, calculate additional (sub)frames to smoothen the movements and do other picture processing to enhance the image quality.
These steps of the signal processing depend on the monitor/TV and on the selected preset. They are absolutely independent from the attached signal source at the other end of the HDMI cable.

So there is also no way to request "faster" signals/pictures. As soon as the computer is ready to output the image it IS put out. There are also delays within the computer and even at the input side (keyboard, mouse, USB, IRQ-requests, scheduler, video processing, etc) but all these are independend from the "input lag" of the display and cant be speeded up. It just takes this amount of time to recognize your mouse click or key-down event, handle it appropriately and create the corresponding graphics for the output. This can't be done earlier as your key stroke did not happen earlier.

So at the time when the graphics card sends the signal there is no "input lag" and nothing that can be speeded up by any magical device.
The input lag of the monitor is just the last delay in a chain of many delays. It may be really large or it may be low. But that is dependend on the monitor and how it handles the signal. Again this can not be influenced by an additional device. That's nonsense and it will never work. It may only add some additional latency but it can't jump back in time to send the "future signal" earlier than the PC did.
It's just useless or even worse.
post #3863 of 4184
Quote:
Originally Posted by beerninja View Post

John at the Leo Bodnar site told me that he thinks the signal problem might be fixed if I hold down the button before switching inputs. I've already tried that the last time I was at Frys but I didn't try turning the TV off and then back on again so I might try that for the ones where the signal wasn't detected. I'll also bring some different batteries just in case that was it.

I'll be making a Costco grocery run this weekend so I'll bring the tester with me.

What worked for me was making sure I timed the pressing of the button to be simultaneous with me switching to the appropriate input. Just pressing the button down and then switching to the input while holding the button didn't work for my LG monitor.
post #3864 of 4184
Quote:
Originally Posted by masamunecyrus View Post

I tested my Panasonic TC-L42E50 using Leo Bodnar's input lag tool.

I have good news and bad news.

The bad news is that it tests out at exactly and consistently at 41.5 ms with GAME mode ON and all video processing turned OFF. All input lag tests before this have measured TVs as compared to a CRT monitor, and I do believe I once read that CRT monitors actually do have a 5-10 ms lag vs an oscilloscope... Nevertheless, that's going to put this TV into the 2-3 frames range. I certainly didn't feel 3 frames when using my computer mouse, so I must be rusty compared to a couple years ago when I played tournament-level Smash Bros Melee.

The good news is that I've confirmed that Redmere active HDMI cables do not impart any input lag.

Oh good grief....

Quote:
For those that haven't heard, Redmere is a company that makes a tiny signal-amplifying chip that is housed inside an HDMI connector. This allows them to use a very thin cable to transmit HDMI signal over very longe ranges. Traditionally, HDMI cables have been fairly large and bulky, and they have been limited by the length in which you can use them (e.g., you can't buy a 60 ft HDMI cable, as far as I know).

There is no HDMI length limitation, the only thing that can happen with length (as in all electronics) is attenuation in relation to length. Those bulky cables help that attenuation, not hurt it. The website was talking about getting around the need for thicker (lower gauge #) wires. And this has nothing to do with lag.

Quote:
Note that Redmere cables are directional: you can't just plug either end into the TV. There is a SOURCE end and a DISPLAY end. The DISPLAY end houses the Redmere chip which will amplify a weak signal from the source into a more powerful signal which is then transmitted to the TV. The worry was that this signal amplifying could impart some latency into the signal-transmission process. Leo Bodnar's lag tester shows that if it does add any latency, it is less than 0.1 ms. My Panasonic TV measured 41.5 ms both with a Monoprice Redmere cable (15 ft) and a traditional HDMI cable (3 ft).

I'm sorry, but you have the science entirely wrong. I have no idea where to even start with this, so I'm going to keep it simple. You are not going to have lag affected by line amplification unless that line amplification is a receive-and-transmit repeater hub (it's not) with a massive latency inside it (which makes no sense anyway), and none of this is what the website says in any case. Look up the signal disciplines involved in HDMI to start with.
post #3865 of 4184
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasSMTT View Post

My "idea" would be different. It would not even want to compete with Leos device, it would be something else. A solution for the people out there, that can't use Leos device (because of different plugs or resolutions on their monitor, etc)
I would really like to play around with a FPGA and how it can drive the DP-transmitter-chip.
I am sorry if you don't like the idea that there is someone who spends his weekends and holidays to develop something that other people would like to use. But please don't tell me what I have to do. That's my business.

I didn't mean to suggest what you should and should not do. That was not my intentions. Sorry if I came across that way.
post #3866 of 4184
Just got back from Costco and Best Buy. Spent probably 2 hours at BB.

results with 1080p Leo Bodnar tester:

panny U50
27.8ms confirmed game mode (I'm thinking the 27.1 I got earlier must have already been in game mode). the decimals fluctuate.

panny ST50 (american version). Omicron got ~43 on his Australian version
39ms game mode

Sammy UN55ES7500 (thanks amisfit for the button trick!)
80ms standard
40.1ms game mode

Vizio M550SL
42.6ms standard
42.5ms game mode (game mode does pretty much nothing on this TV)

LG55LM7600
121.7ms standard
28.6ms game mode

sammy PN64E550D1FXZA
71.6ms standard
38.3ms game

Sony KDL60EX645
127ms standard
132ms custom with everything off (there does not appear to be a game mode)

Sharp LC-60LE845U
signal not detected even with the button trick frown.gif

Sharp LC-60LE745U
signal not detected frown.gif

Sony KDL55HX750
signal not detected

It's baffling me that some TVs will detect the signal and some won't even the same brand name. Like that sony EX645 took it but the HX750 didn't. None of the Sharp TVs will detect the signal for some reason.

I really want to test the sony HMD but I don't want to drive all the way downtown to the sony store. Plus I would have to have some kind of magnifying glass rig to hold the tester up to the eye piece. When the RAZR comes out I can already tell that thing is going to be laggy. Just from looking at the CES videos you could see the input lag on the tablet was horrendous. Hopefully that can be avoided with its HDMI output. Everything else about it looks fantastic. Also looking forward to the oculus rift.

I would test PJ's if i could but sadly no electronic stores seem to demo them anymore. Most mom and pop shops that used to have them are now out of business.

I'll go test more TVs in February when some of the 2013 models come out
post #3867 of 4184
Quote:
Originally Posted by beerninja View Post

Sony KDL60EX645
127ms standard
132ms custom with everything off (there does not appear to be a game mode)
Hit the Scene button on the remote, select Game, done.

There is a big improvement on lag on this mode as I play fighting games and notice it right away. Hope you can test this again!
post #3868 of 4184
Quote:
Originally Posted by sodaboy581 View Post

Hit the Scene button on the remote, select Game, done.

Thanks for the tip, I will try this next time. Unfortunately there was no remote so I had to make do with the side buttons. I'm thinking the game option must only be accessible via remote.
post #3869 of 4184
I just watched a video about a new gaming monitor from ASUS that is being shown at CES. Here's a link to that video: http://youtu.be/YCYBahvs0do?t=11m48s

Here's a link to a webpage with the official press release for the monitor: http://rog.asus.com/199052013/news/asus-launches-vg248qe-24-inch-144hz-3d-gaming-monitor/

I don't like how they went down in size from the VG278H to 24 inches. That's just stupid to me but I guess they were more concerned with making that monitor more affordable than the previous model. If you don't care about the size and 3D not being included out of the box (you can add a IR emitter and 3D Vision package as optional upgrades later) then this might be a good gaming monitor for anyone looking for the latest model. I assume it would have as fast if not faster response than the older VG278H but of course, we'll have to wait until someone tests the input lag on it to be sure. I doubt any retail stores around my location will ever have it on display but if they do I will be sure to test it with Leo Bodnar's input lag tester and post the results here. Maybe Fry's will have it displayed eventually?
post #3870 of 4184
Quote:
Originally Posted by beerninja View Post

Just got back from Costco and Best Buy. Spent probably 2 hours at BB.

results with 1080p Leo Bodnar tester:
...
I'll go test more TVs in February when some of the 2013 models come out

Thank you very much for sharing that Mr. beerninja. You rock!
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