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Input lag wars!, post your input lag results of your LCD display here for reference - Page 130

post #3871 of 4189
I see mostly very costly, high-end 50" and up sets are being tested. It's pretty much expected that those would be laggy since they're most likely packed with post-processing even with game mode (if available) on. That said, the numbers are mostly a little LOWER than I expected, save for the incredibly laggy Sony.

It actually gives me a little hope for the less "feature-rich" sets. Does anyone at all plan on testing any that are 40" and below? Maybe some that are a little more budget-friendly? (Aside from maybe the super cheapo brands that probably won't even last you a year.)
post #3872 of 4189
I own a 40" Sony 40V4000 and I can feel little lag, I get around 250ms on the Human Benchmark test http://www.humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime/ which is the same result as my pc monitor, HDTV report 0ms lag on the screen so this set could have the honour of being the best gaming TV!
post #3873 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by nintygaming View Post

This is sad....another Game Mode that is not good enough. But then again, Panasonic stopped caring about low lag displays after 2011. Nevertheless, most Game Modes are jokes. However, I'm still hoping that OLED will provide us with low-lag....so that we are not all forced to use tiny PC monitors or old CRT's.

(What you read about CRT monitors having 5-10ms of lag is no doubt wrong. Unless they are HD-CRT...which would have post-processing.)

If my Samsung Galaxy Nexus is any indication, OLED suffers from image retention about as badly as plasma. You might as well just purchase a nice Panasonic plasma TV (though those are getting back up to the 30+ ms range, it seems).
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

Oh good grief....
There is no HDMI length limitation, the only thing that can happen with length (as in all electronics) is attenuation in relation to length. Those bulky cables help that attenuation, not hurt it. The website was talking about getting around the need for thicker (lower gauge #) wires. And this has nothing to do with lag.
I'm sorry, but you have the science entirely wrong. I have no idea where to even start with this, so I'm going to keep it simple. You are not going to have lag affected by line amplification unless that line amplification is a receive-and-transmit repeater hub (it's not) with a massive latency inside it (which makes no sense anyway), and none of this is what the website says in any case. Look up the signal disciplines involved in HDMI to start with.

Sorry for my ignorance, but all the descriptions online made it sound like it was a signal amplifier (weak signal input --> black box --> strong signal output). I don't claim to be a signal expert, so I'll defer to you. As regards to the length, though, no one wants an 18 AWG HDMI cable; the longer your cable, the thicker the wire needs be, and I haven't seen hugely-long HDMI cables for sale on Monoprice or other stores. My 15 ft Monoprice redmere has the same thickness as an iPhone charger cable, so I'm happy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainbow Mash View Post

I see mostly very costly, high-end 50" and up sets are being tested. It's pretty much expected that those would be laggy since they're most likely packed with post-processing even with game mode (if available) on. That said, the numbers are mostly a little LOWER than I expected, save for the incredibly laggy Sony.

It actually gives me a little hope for the less "feature-rich" sets. Does anyone at all plan on testing any that are 40" and below? Maybe some that are a little more budget-friendly? (Aside from maybe the super cheapo brands that probably won't even last you a year.)

Now that you mention it, I do wonder how the super budget TVs fare with input lag? Maybe I should take a trip to Walmart, not Best Buy, and test all the cheapo TVs?
Edited by masamunecyrus - 1/14/13 at 11:36am
post #3874 of 4189
Well I was more talking about entry-level sets from more reputable brands, and Walmart is definitely pushing the limits of where some people want to shop LOL, but I'd be for the idea of testing some of the better low-end brands like RCA or Insignia as well.

But I digress, in order to find the sets with the least latency, you gotta cover all of the bases and not just the super high-end. Otherwise there might be some diamonds in the rough that end up going undiscovered.
post #3875 of 4189
Hey guys what 55" would You reccommend for gaming (60%) and sport television ?

I was thinking about getting Sony 55HX850 or Philips 8007 but no idea which one would be the best choice for gaming and watching fast scenes. Any recommendations ?
post #3876 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by nonamed View Post

Hey guys what 55" would You reccommend for gaming (60%) and sport television ?

I was thinking about getting Sony 55HX850 or Philips 8007 but no idea which one would be the best choice for gaming and watching fast scenes. Any recommendations ?

I hate to sound negative, but if your hunting for a set with "zero" motion blur, then your out of luck unless your willing to hunt down a HD-CRT. No LCD, nor Plasma still has perfect motion, but if your willing to deal with "minor" motion blur, then go for Plasma. It will however be more noticeable in the 60" size.
Edited by nintygaming - 1/22/13 at 2:49pm
post #3877 of 4189
Which LCD has the least input lag of any LCD in the history of the world?
post #3878 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Which LCD has the least input lag of any LCD in the history of the world?

Anything from the "ALPHA" branch of IPS HDTV's. It MUST be the "ALPHA" version. For those, generally around 5ms or 10ms average. The L32X1 is only 720p, but averages 6 or 8ms. The L32S1 is 1080p and is around 13ms. The L32E3 is 1080p and is about 10ms. But Panasonic no longer uses ALPHA, and is instead using outsourced IPS panels that has RTC and thus, high lag.
Edited by nintygaming - 1/22/13 at 2:50pm
post #3879 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Artwood View Post

Which LCD has the least input lag of any LCD in the history of the world?

Sony 40V4000 - 0ms reported by HDTV I believe. It's the lowest I've ever tested too. They still go for up to £200 on ebay.
post #3880 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakefield Trin View Post

Sony 40V4000 - 0ms reported by HDTV I believe. It's the lowest I've ever tested too. They still go for up to £200 on ebay.

0-10ms actually. Almost as fast as the Panasonic L32X1 and L32S1, and equal to the L32E3. Still though, the Sony (if a VA panel) will have more motion blur than the Alpha-IPS panels.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-kdl40v4000-review-20080822127.htm
post #3881 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by nintygaming View Post

0-10ms actually. Almost as fast as the Panasonic L32X1 and L32S1, and equal to the L32E3. Still though, the Sony (if a VA panel) will have more motion blur than the Alpha-IPS panels.

http://www.hdtvtest.co.uk/news/sony-kdl40v4000-review-20080822127.htm

The Sony is motion blur city and tbh I've tested it around 15ms tbh.
post #3882 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasSMTT View Post

Sorry for the double, posting, bit It's worth it:
That's ridiculous.

It is impossible to get rid of the input lag by any device.
Input lag is not depending on the signal. It's something that is created inside the electronics of the monitor.
There is nothing like a "input lag" before the video signal passes the plug at the backside of the monitor and there is no way to influence the signal processing inside the monitor by an external plug, adapter, signal conditioner or whatever that should be.

It's just plain data processing and buffering inside the monitor that consumes some time. Some monitors/TV sets don't do much or just do their processing really fast (on the fly) so that there is no real lag at all (~1ms) and there are TV-Sets that buffer at least two frames, calculate additional (sub)frames to smoothen the movements and do other picture processing to enhance the image quality.
These steps of the signal processing depend on the monitor/TV and on the selected preset. They are absolutely independent from the attached signal source at the other end of the HDMI cable.

So there is also no way to request "faster" signals/pictures. As soon as the computer is ready to output the image it IS put out. There are also delays within the computer and even at the input side (keyboard, mouse, USB, IRQ-requests, scheduler, video processing, etc) but all these are independend from the "input lag" of the display and cant be speeded up. It just takes this amount of time to recognize your mouse click or key-down event, handle it appropriately and create the corresponding graphics for the output. This can't be done earlier as your key stroke did not happen earlier.

So at the time when the graphics card sends the signal there is no "input lag" and nothing that can be speeded up by any magical device.
The input lag of the monitor is just the last delay in a chain of many delays. It may be really large or it may be low. But that is dependend on the monitor and how it handles the signal. Again this can not be influenced by an additional device. That's nonsense and it will never work. It may only add some additional latency but it can't jump back in time to send the "future signal" earlier than the PC did.
It's just useless or even worse.

Relax.

I was never claiming that those HDfury devices actually worked as intended (hopefully, you clicked on the blue link I provided). I just wanted check to see if the members on this forum have had any experience with them.
post #3883 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by masamunecyrus View Post

Sorry for my ignorance, but all the descriptions online made it sound like it was a signal amplifier (weak signal input --> black box --> strong signal output). I don't claim to be a signal expert, so I'll defer to you. As regards to the length, though, no one wants an 18 AWG HDMI cable; the longer your cable, the thicker the wire needs be,

There's a lot going on for that discussion. The biggest problem with the post though was the idea that a cable would introduce lag. It does not (unless, like I said, there was some magic repeater in it, which isn't the case). Amplification of a signal doesn't do anything for that lag. That said, even if we were to take them at their word (they're not claiming anything about lag), Amplification does bring with it at least 3 issues. First, HDMI is a bi-directional data trunk, though the return channel is a magnitude less demanding of course, but the signal *still* needs to get through or HDCP will fail, and you need a clean return if you're hoping for ARC. 2nd, their amplification is certainly going to amplify whatever noise there is. 3rd, amplifying a signal just to somehow "push" through the resistance of a thinner wire is a disastrous notion in signal processing because all that will do is make the thinner wire an ever more productive transmitter, even with twisted pair, and the result would be a need for dramatically heavier insulation. I'd like to see what their engineers think they are doing here, but either way, even if all those issues were negated, it *still* would have nothing to do with lag.
post #3884 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wakefield Trin View Post

The Sony is motion blur city and tbh I've tested it around 15ms tbh.

Plasma's kick LCD's into a distant galaxy in terms of motion handling and overall picture quality. But its still hard to find a Plasma with low input lag. Also stinks that they don't come in sizes smaller than 42". Shouldn't be too hard to make a 1280x720 PDP in 32" or heck, even 27". But then again, I don't know much about how these things are built. All I know is that they look about as close to the almightly HD-CRT as any TV can get.
Edited by nintygaming - 1/26/13 at 10:15pm
post #3885 of 4189
Well, people can dream about 0 lag giant TVs that are 3mm thick and reproduce 200% of colors and radiations that no one has ever seen or measured, but we do have to live with what they make now.
I have been playing SSFIV on the 47" LG that's been going on sale a lot recently; the 47LM4600. I can safely say that it has less lag that my previous panasonic TC-L47E50. If I had to guess, probably half as much. I'm hoping for someone with a lag tester to check it out. I would buy one myself but it took me 8 months of trading up to get this TV and spending $100 on it is out of the question.
post #3886 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr Fusion View Post

Relax.

I was never claiming that those HDfury devices actually worked as intended (hopefully, you clicked on the blue link I provided). I just wanted check to see if the members on this forum have had any experience with them.
Well, but their homepage implies it, as they have this strange example of three completely different monitors: The one attached with their device had the lowest amount of lag.
There are at least three ways to explain it without even mentioning their device at all. wink.gif

Sorry, there were two postings that mentioned pure fantasy devices that could reduce or eliminate input lag. I just wanted to clarify that this example device (or any other) will never be able to to what is advertised.
post #3887 of 4189
If anyone who cars about input lag and want a 32" LED should look into the LG 32LS3400. I had time to test it and it's a sub 1 frame input lag panel with HDMI as PC and Game mode. I'm unsure if the panel is IPS however viewing angles were about 45+ degrees. Color is not perfect like the LK450 or EH5000 however the model itself is very cheap for gamers that are about input lag. Motion blur is also really good, none detected by my eyes. Google review 42LS3400, it's about the same all over. I'm unsure if this low input lag carries over to the 32LS3450 (Direct-Lit) or 32LS3500 (Edge-Lit, higher probability cause same resolution).
post #3888 of 4189
Nice find! Was this done using the lag tester? Do you remember the numbers?

Also I wonder since this involves using HDMI as PC how the lag is using component. Though I guess that's not a huge deal.
Edited by Rainbow Mash - 1/22/13 at 7:19pm
post #3889 of 4189
I had good luck setting the LG 42" I had to PC mode. As others have stated, one of the HDMI's is masquerading as a DVI port, if you use that input and then set the input to PC you get pretty reasonable lag times.

At least for everyone who isn't a "Professional" FPS, Fight-Game or I guess retro gamer.........e.g. the guys who always complain (but with good reason).

I'd be happy just to find a replacement for this ancient 37" Westy I keep using.....42" is too big, 32 is a bit small....... *sigh*

Too bad LG doesn't make a 37" thin bezel thin set......42 was just too big.
post #3890 of 4189
I'll try and put up some numbers tonight once I get my old CRT monitor hooked up. I'm confused about the camera shutter speed. I was using a Galaxy Note (first gen) to take pictures the 32LS3400 compared to my Samsung 941BW monitor (4ms GTG) there was no difference I then hooked up my old 32LK330 and there was a 30 - 40ms difference (most likely 32ms) so I know the camera is working and not some trick.

The few problems I've got with the 32LS3400 is flash lighting is pretty noticeable, component seems to be 16 - 32ms input lag and the contrast isn't great (still acceptable if the my input lag test is correct sub 16ms for HDMI), I'm going to contact LG to get the flash lighting issue resolved maybe swap for a new panel.
post #3891 of 4189
Hi, I dont know much about tvs or monitors so I came here. I play streetfighter competitively and use my old crtv. Im trying to upgrade but im worried about lag time when i press the controller. All the flatscreens in my home have way too much lag for streetfighter. Im wondering if large display monitors would be good for streetfighter and movies. Do they have low lag times? Do they hook up like a normal tv or do the need hdmi? Would any of these be any good? Any help is greatly appreciated.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824002606


http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824016184

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824007117

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824133081

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824005356

http://www.newegg.com/Product
/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824005370
post #3892 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by shane93 View Post

Hi, I dont know much about tvs or monitors so I came here.

Hi Shane,

We're mostly testing TVs here so for monitors (which is your absolute best bet for low input lag) I recommend you also look at this thread in which they are concentrating on testing monitors:
http://shoryuken.com/forum/index.php?threads/sub-1-frame-hdtv-monitor-input-lag-database.145141/page-19

Cheers
post #3893 of 4189
Hey Guys/Girls

the search for a good LED 32" tv with acceptable levels of input lag is really doing my head in, ive spent days of researching and am going around in circles. (although thanks to great forums such as this one i am much more educated in TV's). Whats really unfortunate is that most tv's mentioned here aren't Australian or asia pacific models (makes it that much harder for me to find our equivalent).

Anyway i have a question for those that have any idea, would a normal IPS screen be better than a AV screen with regards to input lag.?

My understandings after all this research is that 2011 Panny's were the best however they are unavailable anymore here in Oz. Lg on the otherhand have their S-IPS but its a matter of lottery with their models, even though i havnt seen any new on S-IPS on 2012 models?

The model im considering to get is this one (australian model number), simply because it doesnt have any fancy things eg 3d, motionflow etc.. http://www.lg.com/au/tvs/lg-32LS4600-lcd-tv

Thanks in advance for any replies.
post #3894 of 4189
Pawel04, a lot of us are in your boat. I had one of the super thin LED LG sets last year, the 42".....which I hear is similar if not the same performance-wise to the 32" sets. It had passive 3D, though I never got around to trying it or the glasses.

Google LG's Hidden PC Mode.....at least here in the States, one of the HDMI ports was marked "HDMI/PC"....if you connected to that port, and went into the menu for that input and selected PC mode, you got pretty reasonable response times.
Not sure if all models had this, not sure if those models translate to the Southern Hemisphere....but it can't hurt to look?

I just use the 'seat of the pants' test...whip the mouse around and see if I get that laggy feeling. If I don't, then I know I'll be able to live with it. With other sets I tried I got that laggy feeling even with game mode turned on. A cheap 37" Westinghouse set with game mode on performed ok,
but it looked terrible, not sure what kind of panel I was looking at but it wasn't pretty.

However, as you will see in this thread, if you are a gamer who needs super responsive performance, you'd be smarter to invest in a smaller LCD monitor with no processing and a DVI-D input....there are not a lot of awesome choices and 2012 seems to indicate there will be even less
choice. I'm tempted to move t oone of those LG panels in the 32" size and just adjust down....I've grown pretty used to 37" on the desktop however...
post #3895 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawel04 View Post

My understandings after all this research is that 2011 Panny's were the best however they are unavailable anymore here in Oz.

Your down-under country is a true enigma. You're in every way I can figure a fully complete modern western-hemisphere style country.....RIGHT up until it comes to product availability. I have no idea why that is, but I feel for ya. I see many posts to that effect. If Amazon ever plants a real taproot down there, then you'll see a lot of stuff suddenly open up.
post #3896 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by HeadRusch View Post

Google LG's Hidden PC Mode.....at least here in the States, one of the HDMI ports was marked "HDMI/PC"....if you connected to that port, and went into the menu for that input and selected PC mode, you got pretty reasonable response times.
Not sure if all models had this, not sure if those models translate to the Southern Hemisphere....but it can't hurt to look?

I'm tempted to move t oone of those LG panels in the 32" size and just adjust down....I've grown pretty used to 37" on the desktop however...

I did a bit of googling and had a look at the manual for the above model i mentioned and it has something about a PC mode so will look into that.
32" is a prefect size, anything bigger and itd be too big for me, im sure you could get used to it :P.
Also this test you mentioned, moving the mouse around and feeling for lag, what xxms would you say the tv would have to have before you can really start feeling this sort of lag.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

If Amazon ever plants a real taproot down there, then you'll see a lot of stuff suddenly open up.

I wish Amazon came down here...... All that money i waste on shipping sneakers over here from America....

BTW i found a very attractive LG in the websites lineup stating it has "3ms response time", now i know response time is different to input lag which is the real offender but thats still prety impressive if were true. Info on the tv: http://www.lg.com/au/tvs/lg-32LV3730-lcd-tv

So would anyone be able to say if an IPS panel is still better than an AV or is the same crap really when it comes to input lag?

Cheers.
post #3897 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawel04 View Post

BTW i found a very attractive LG in the websites lineup stating it has "3ms response time", now i know response time is different to input lag which is the real offender but thats still prety impressive if were true. Info on the tv: http://www.lg.com/au/tvs/lg-32LV3730-lcd-tv

It sounds as if you understand what causes lag, but when you deal with gamers trying to make a transition from computer monitors to TV's, I feel the need to give an analogy. This is the best I can come up with.

The numbers are stretched to make a point.

Imagine you're designing a very high-end mythical car wash. You're trying to get as many cars washed as you can in a day. But you realize that it still takes an hour to really wash/dry/wax a car properly.

What do you do?

You set up a 12 stage wash. There are 12 bunches of people, each bunch (say 4 people each) after another in a long line. A car comes in and gets 5 minutes of attention and then moves to the next stage. As it moves to the next stage, another car comes into the first stage.

Each car still takes a hour to complete, but you're still able to do 12 cars an hour.

The hour is the lag.
The 5 minutes is the response time.

That's not a perfect analogy, but as close as I can get off the top of my head.
post #3898 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pawel04 View Post

Hey Guys/Girls

the search for a good LED 32" tv with acceptable levels of input lag is really doing my head in, ive spent days of researching and am going around in circles. (although thanks to great forums such as this one i am much more educated in TV's). Whats really unfortunate is that most tv's mentioned here aren't Australian or asia pacific models (makes it that much harder for me to find our equivalent).

Anyway i have a question for those that have any idea, would a normal IPS screen be better than a AV screen with regards to input lag.?

My understandings after all this research is that 2011 Panny's were the best however they are unavailable anymore here in Oz. Lg on the otherhand have their S-IPS but its a matter of lottery with their models, even though i havnt seen any new on S-IPS on 2012 models?

The model im considering to get is this one (australian model number), simply because it doesnt have any fancy things eg 3d, motionflow etc.. http://www.lg.com/au/tvs/lg-32LS4600-lcd-tv

Thanks in advance for any replies.

The reason why you've spent days of researching and continue to go around in circles is because what your looking for ALMOST does not exist (trust me, I've been in your shoes, and it sucks). 98-99% of all HDTV's (especially LCD) have significant input lag, even in game mode, and thus your research has nearly been in vain. But all hope is not lost. Keep reading.....

Most of the time, a "normal IPS" screen as you put it, is a S-IPS, and these are usually found in LG TV's, and Panasonic TV's that do not SPECIFICALLY state "ALPHA", and unfortunately for the past view years, the S-IPS mostly use RTC chips inside of them. RTC (response time compensation) is one of the WORST forms of post-processing in regards to adding more input lag. They use RTC to compensate for the poor pixel response of the LCD technology and thus create more lag while doing so.

The only IPS panels that don't use RTC are the IPS-Alpha. But Panasonic no longer use's IPS-Alpha, and now are using S-IPS. So, once again your out of luck.

Are you patient person? If so, then wait for OLED in a 32" size. May take a few years for the price to be reasonable, but the processing in OLED TV's should be on par or better than Plasma, and thus less lag. Plasma (a good one) doesn't need no-where near as much post-processing as LCD simply because of their far superior picture quality and pixel response. OLED will have an even more superior picture quality than Plasma, possibly even better than a HD-CRT, virtually instant pixel response, and thus digital processing SHOULD be minimal, and minimal processing = minimal lag. (notice I said "SHOULD", meaning, if the TV manufacturer doesn't screw it up).

Or you could force yourself to use a PC Monitor (biggest I think is 27"). You have my best wishes with whatever you decide to choose.
Edited by nintygaming - 1/24/13 at 5:26pm
post #3899 of 4189
So much input lag
post #3900 of 4189
Just in case anyone is interested, I'm considering putting up my Panasonic L32X1 for sale on eBay (USA). As many of you may already know, its pretty much the lowest lag-LCD TV ever made, at least according to page 1 of this thread and sho-ryu-ken's input lag database. Its in mint condition, only used for about 3 months (purchased it brand new and used for a little while). I play mostly retro games and watch 99% standard definition content (TV shows from the 80-90's basically). So I really don't need this TV.

I don't know if me mentioning this is appropriate for this forum or not. But I thought I should let at least you guys know that I just might put it on eBay (in original box, well packed, insured for total, etc). If anyone is interested, send me a PM.
Edited by nintygaming - 1/26/13 at 8:23pm
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