or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › LCD Flat Panel Displays › Input lag wars!, post your input lag results of your LCD display here for reference
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Input lag wars!, post your input lag results of your LCD display here for reference - Page 132

post #3931 of 4189
It seems you're forgetting all about CRTs drawbacks like blooming, geometry, eventual loss of focus, magnetism and polarization, etc. CRTs also aren't that bright. The LCD with a dimmer screen is pretty much equivalent to a CRT as LCD already is extremely brighter than a CRT to begin with.

Also, OLED won't be your savior either. It's still a sample and hold technology, same as LCD. It will have the same exact motion blur problems unless black frames or lines are inserted. (The same way LCDs do it.)

There won't ever be a technology, outside of CRT, that you will ever be happy with... So I guess you will be making love to that CRT forever.

Enjoy!

EDIT: Also, who's to say OLED TVs won't have any sort of image processing that won't add to lag whatsoever? Image processing is here to stay on any future HDTVs from this point forward. You are guaranteed to have the same input lag problems you have on LCDs and Plasmas on the latest OLED TVs that come out. Perhaps we'll get an eventual rare HDTV that comes close, just as we've done in the past, but you'll most likely have to wait for an OLED PC monitor (that still has motion blurring), sorry to say.
Edited by sodaboy581 - 2/3/13 at 3:50am
post #3932 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by sodaboy581 View Post

It seems you're forgetting all about CRTs drawbacks like blooming, geometry, eventual loss of focus, magnetism and polarization, etc. CRTs also aren't that bright. The LCD with a dimmer screen is pretty much equivalent to a CRT as LCD already is extremely brighter than a CRT to begin with.

Also, OLED won't be your savior either. It's still a sample and hold technology, same as LCD. It will have the same exact motion blur problems unless black frames or lines are inserted. (The same way LCDs do it.)

There won't ever be a technology, outside of CRT, that you will ever be happy with... So I guess you will be making love to that CRT forever.

Enjoy!

EDIT: Also, who's to say OLED TVs won't have any sort of image processing that won't add to lag whatsoever? Image processing is here to stay on any future HDTVs from this point forward. You are guaranteed to have the same input lag problems you have on LCDs and Plasmas on the latest OLED TVs that come out. Perhaps we'll get an eventual rare HDTV that comes close, just as we've done in the past, but you'll most likely have to wait for an OLED PC monitor (that still has motion blurring), sorry to say.

OLED TV's do not have motion blur, I don't know where you got the idea that they do. And CRT geometry is for sure an issue, but that can be fixed within the service menu and/or via internal adjustments done correctly ether via tiny magnets or elsewhere. Loss of focus over time is fixed with a small turn of a knob (at least it was with my TV). And they aren't bright? Are you kidding? I have a barely used 2009 Panasonic LCD that is much dimmer (even on its brightest settings) when compared to my CRT that is 10 years older.

And yes, I will probably have to wait for the "eventual rare" OLED that has next to no input lag like I did with my Panasonic, but that's not a problem if your patient. And again, there will be no motion blur with OLED unless someone is making a seriously crappy one (like the really old Plasma's, which were still close to a CRT).

Enjoy your tiny PC monitor with all those gimmicks to make it look like something that it was never meant to be (you know, an old timey TV). I'm a console gamer, and NOT a PC gamer and never will be. I don't know why your so offensive and defensive when it comes to the flawed LCD technology, a tech that was never meant to be what it has become (you know, a TV). Are you really so hung up over Size, Weight, and Razer-Sharpness that you would do whatever it takes to make LCD sound like God's gift to TV? Seriously?
post #3933 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by nintygaming View Post

OLED TV's do not have motion blur, I don't know where you got the idea that they

Enjoy your tiny PC monitor with all those gimmicks to make it look like something that it was never meant to be (you know, an old timey TV). I'm a console gamer, and NOT a PC gamer and never will be. I don't know why your so offensive and defensive when it comes to the flawed LCD technology, a tech that was never meant to be what it has become (you know, a TV). Are you really so hung up over Size, Weight, and Razer-Sharpness that you would do whatever it takes to make LCD sound like God's gift to TV? Seriously?

Okay, just because I stated some facts, it doesn't mean that I think LCDs are God's gift to TV. I have actually been pretty neutral. I have pointed out LCDs drawbacks AND positives, as well as CRTs drawbacks and positives.

I'm actually not getting offended or worked up at all over these back and forths. You are.

It's pretty obvious that you have no idea what YOU are talking about, though. First coming up with that silly idea of a magical box to eliminate input lag and then you go off and say OLED has no motion blur whatsoever.

You're right. I really should have left you alone in this thread a long time ago. "Arguing" with a fool only makes me look more like one.
post #3934 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by sodaboy581 View Post

A strobbed backlight 120hz LCD monitor, like the new Lightboost 2 ones, trump CRT motion WITHOUT BLUR easily.

That's absolutely untrue.
post #3935 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by tgm1024 View Post

That's absolutely untrue.
Well, it comes close.

Also http://hardforum.com/showthread.php?t=1711833

For nintygaming... I don't think LCDs are the best tech... Not even close... (And, in fact, I prefer Plasma for gaming but dislike IR and ABL) But at least I don't go around saying OLED has no motion blur. It needs BFI (to add artificial flicker), same as LCD.
post #3936 of 4189
I thought this thread was for posting input lag results?
post #3937 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by kiltedmile View Post

I just got the Leo (1080p) tester, I will try to confirm and also get numbers for the TV's that you couldn't. I'll post them here when I finish at BB, Sears and Costco (sams)
Would be interested in the 60" LG LM7200. Think it may be Best Buy exclusive. Seems other 2012 LG's get acceptable results and this looks like a good bargain. I'd get a Panny Plasma but the lag test results this year aren't that impressive and my son loves 3d and so I'm a fan of LG's passive tech for a 4 year old (also I wear glasses and can get clip ons).
post #3938 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreyM View Post

Would be interested in the 60" LG LM7200. Think it may be Best Buy exclusive. Seems other 2012 LG's get acceptable results and this looks like a good bargain. I'd get a Panny Plasma but the lag test results this year aren't that impressive and my son loves 3d and so I'm a fan of LG's passive tech for a 4 year old (also I wear glasses and can get clip ons).

Well for 2013, all LED-LCD panasonics will be passive, not just the ET5. Also, Sony has (very begrudgingly by the way) caved into the passive tech, which is awesome in my opinion, because the realities of active are just not "do-able" in most households.

IF you're interested in LG (as am I), look carefully through the 60LM7200 thread......there's lightbleed issues in the corners that can sometimes be fixed by pressing on the corners. Also search the thread for "lag". And finally, hold off on buying the thing for another couple weeks. An LG rep told someone from the forum that the prices won't come down until Feb 13th. I'm holding out to see if that's true. Don't forget: The 2013 models start to trickle in (primarily) from feb to april (AFAICT). This in theory starts a heavy price drop.

One final caveat about the prices however: the last few months seem to be very disappointing in this regard (Black Friday should be called "Light Gray Friday". So YMMV.
Edited by tgm1024 - 2/4/13 at 10:32am
post #3939 of 4189
I'm in the middle of divorce so as much as I'd like to pull the trigger, sound judgement probably keeps me until April. Unless I see a deal too good to pass up. I do have one month left of BB Silver though, so I'm tempted to grab now somehow and get it calibrated free, plus get the rewards bonus.

The Panny Plasmas will be passive 3d? Or just their LEDs?
post #3940 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreyM View Post

I'm in the middle of divorce so as much as I'd like to pull the trigger, sound judgement probably keeps me until April. Unless I see a deal too good to pass up. I do have one month left of BB Silver though, so I'm tempted to grab now somehow and get it calibrated free, plus get the rewards bonus.

I wonder if the Feb 13th date for price reductions on the LG 60LM7200 is real.

Quote:
The Panny Plasmas will be passive 3d? Or just their LEDs?

Just their LED-LCD's. The 2013 pana plasmas will be active.
post #3941 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by CoreyM View Post

I'm in the middle of divorce

Dude unless you got a prenup you better buy now before she takes all your money.
post #3942 of 4189
post #3943 of 4189
Hello everyone, some of you saw this in other threads but I should put it here. I made a website called Display Lag to catalog all the displays that I can. Every display on here is tested using Leo Bodnar's Lag Tester. I recently redesigned the database so you can search and sort by specific criteria. Right now I have nearly 50 displays graded and will try my best to add many more as soon as possible. I hope its of use to everyone!

http://www.displaylag.com/
post #3944 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by FourWude View Post

Hello everyone, some of you saw this in other threads but I should put it here. I made a website called Display Lag to catalog all the displays that I can. Every display on here is tested using Leo Bodnar's Lag Tester. I recently redesigned the database so you can search and sort by specific criteria. Right now I have nearly 50 displays graded and will try my best to add many more as soon as possible. I hope its of use to everyone!

http://www.displaylag.com/
I like that you added a way to sort the database. It's 100x more useful now. Thanks!
post #3945 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by GeForceFX5200 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by FourWude View Post

Hello everyone, some of you saw this in other threads but I should put it here. I made a website called Display Lag to catalog all the displays that I can. Every display on here is tested using Leo Bodnar's Lag Tester. I recently redesigned the database so you can search and sort by specific criteria. Right now I have nearly 50 displays graded and will try my best to add many more as soon as possible. I hope its of use to everyone!

http://www.displaylag.com/
I like that you added a way to sort the database. It's 100x more useful now. Thanks!

Yep. Desperately needs a multi-tiered sort though (specifying 2ndary sorting rules). It'll be important as this list grows. There are a ton of TV's.
post #3946 of 4189
The search box serves as a secondary sort. For example, if you type "Samsung" in the box, then select "Brand" from the drop down menu, it will filter out all other displays except Samsung. Then you can choose to sort by Input Lag to find the fastest Samsung displays. Isn't this sufficient? Let me know your thoughts, and thanks for the feedback!
post #3947 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by FourWude View Post

The search box serves as a secondary sort. For example, if you type "Samsung" in the box, then select "Brand" from the drop down menu, it will filter out all other displays except Samsung. Then you can choose to sort by Input Lag to find the fastest Samsung displays. Isn't this sufficient? Let me know your thoughts, and thanks for the feedback!

No, it's really not the same. For example, a real life scenario might be to sort by image size, and then wthin each chunk of image size, I could sort by lag. So I could peruse all 55" first, and if that didn't fit the bill, then scroll down to the 47"/46", etc., and it'd be all in front of me.
post #3948 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by FourWude View Post

The search box serves as a secondary sort. For example, if you type "Samsung" in the box, then select "Brand" from the drop down menu, it will filter out all other displays except Samsung. Then you can choose to sort by Input Lag to find the fastest Samsung displays. Isn't this sufficient? Let me know your thoughts, and thanks for the feedback!

Awesome job, dude. Would be nice to have some Sony sets added, but you win the award for internet poster of the week. Great resource there.
post #3949 of 4189
I will try my best to get Sony sets. I actually have two of them, but I couldn't figure out how to enable Sony's game mode without the remote control. The numbers I have are without game mode enabled so I don't want to publish them until I get game mode statistics. I'm glad you like the site, and thank you for the kind words! smile.gif
post #3950 of 4189
Great job FourWude.

Information about used mode on TV would be helpful.
It seems that you have both 720p and 1080p device. I would not mind having both 720p and 1080p results for 1080p models.
post #3951 of 4189
Hello Bojan Ilic,

Sorry for the confusion. I only have 1 tester, which is the 1080p version. I actually had it listed in my disclaimer before that I used a 1080p/60 signal, however when I was updating my disclaimer recently I seemed to have accidentally removed it. I updated all of my disclaimers now that say I only used the 1080p/60 tester. However, I do want to note that Leo Bodnar believes that resolution does not affect the readings:

Quote:
Note:Standard resolution output is 1080p @ 60Hz. We have found through our own basic testing that the input lag does not appear to change regardless of the output resolution however some customers have requested they would like the device to output 720p to test screens for PS3 or Xbox360 usage. If you require 720p please select it from the drop down menu below. The device at present can only be programmed by ourselves so if you require a change in resolution you can return it to us and we will do this free of charge.

Also, the disclaimer has always listed that I used "Game Mode" for the testings. If the display did not have a dedicated game mode, I cycled through the different picture settings available to see if my readings were consistent, and they were. I know that some HDTVs have even lower input lag using a special PC mode, but I didn't really have the means to access it while I was grading all of these displays. So I chose to stick with game mode. The PC mode also tends to limit several picture options that consumers may be interested in using. Hope this helps!
Edited by FourWude - 2/13/13 at 7:50am
post #3952 of 4189
Is one of the Sonys you have the EX640 or EX645? I'm really curious to the lag in Game mode. I'd assume if it's like most Sonys it's about 32ms.

The last person who used the tester on the EX645 in this thread had the Sony at 100ms but he couldn't figure out how to enable the Game mode. (Scene Select -> Game on the remote.)

I really hope we get a solid reading for the EX640/EX645 in Game mode soon!

Side note: I'm really surprised by your Sharp readings. If these were really taken in Game mode, that's a super fail on Sharp's behalf.
post #3953 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by FourWude View Post

Hello Bojan Ilic,

Sorry for the confusion. I only have 1 tester, which is the 1080p version. I actually had it listed in my disclaimer before that I used a 1080p/60 signal, however when I was updating my disclaimer recently I seemed to have accidentally removed it. I updated all of my disclaimers now that say I only used the 1080p/60 tester. However, I do want to note that Leo Bodnar believes that resolution does not affect the readings:

Quote:
Note:Standard resolution output is 1080p @ 60Hz. We have found through our own basic testing that the input lag does not appear to change regardless of the output resolution however some customers have requested they would like the device to output 720p to test screens for PS3 or Xbox360 usage. If you require 720p please select it from the drop down menu below. The device at present can only be programmed by ourselves so if you require a change in resolution you can return it to us and we will do this free of charge.

Also, the disclaimer has always listed that I used "Game Mode" for the testings. If the display did not have a dedicated game mode, I cycled through the different picture settings available to see if my readings were consistent, and they were. I know that some HDTVs have even lower input lag using a special PC mode, but I didn't really have the means to access it while I was grading all of these displays. So I chose to stick with game mode. The PC mode also tends to limit several picture options that consumers may be interested in using. Hope this helps!

Thinking outloud----I'm wondering if next to every tv there would be a link to the thread dedicated to it within avsforum?
post #3954 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by sodaboy581 View Post

Side note: I'm really surprised by your Sharp readings. If these were really taken in Game mode, that's a super fail on Sharp's behalf.
This may sound quite strange but there are customers buying TV-sets for watching movies and TV! eek.gif
These customers don't really care about any lag as long as the sound will be delayed by the same amount of time. wink.gif

Or to express it the other way around: Only a minority of customers care about input lag.
post #3955 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasSMTT View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by sodaboy581 View Post

Side note: I'm really surprised by your Sharp readings. If these were really taken in Game mode, that's a super fail on Sharp's behalf.
This may sound quite strange but there are customers buying TV-sets for watching movies and TV! eek.gif
These customers don't really care about any lag as long as the sound will be delayed by the same amount of time. wink.gif

Or to express it the other way around: Only a minority of customers care about input lag.

I know what you're saying, but don't be quite so sure. Every family I know (except ours LOL) has a game console of some kind in their house "for the kids". And it doesn't take a first-person-shooter fanatic to be annoyed by lag. And the whole electronics topology of the house has been upended by merging of the entertainment center with the computer access.....even something as simple as using a mouse would yield a pointer behaving sluggishly.
Edited by tgm1024 - 2/13/13 at 2:30pm
post #3956 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasSMTT View Post

This may sound quite strange but there are customers buying TV-sets for watching movies and TV! eek.gif
These customers don't really care about any lag as long as the sound will be delayed by the same amount of time. wink.gif

Or to express it the other way around: Only a minority of customers care about input lag.

No, no. I understand all of that. I am not one of those people who are super anal about input lag. 32ms or so, I think, is fine...

I know TVs primary purpose is movies and TV shows...

I'm just surprised that Sharp added a "Game" mode to the TV, but it's past even 3 frames of delay. It really makes it not so good for gaming... They shouldn't have even bothered with a Game mode, really, if that's the case... 2011 Sharps were rated at 32ms or so in Game mode, so, it's surprising the lag doubled in Game mode for 2012.

Game mode's very existence is to disable all the processing you can to get the lag down... I'm sure Sharp could have reduced it more if they didn't put a half-ass effort into it in 2012.

I actually think they half-assed the firmware for all of 2012, really. With SOE not being able to be defeated on a majority of models in 2012, outside of Game mode, even when both Film/Motion are disabled in the menu... I think there's some glitches that needed to be ironed out. Now they probably don't care too much since 2013 models come out this month and next... I'm really hoping the 2013 models are better performers in Game mode and the ability to COMPLETELY disable SOE outside of Game mode via the menu properly 'cuz I'd really like to upgrade this 60EX645 to a 70" LE650 or LE657!!!
Edited by sodaboy581 - 2/13/13 at 12:30pm
post #3957 of 4189
Well, I have to agree that a "Game Mode" - if available - should really reduce the lag to a reasonable minimum. And it's no big deal to reach a 1-Frame lag or even less than that.
So any so called game mode with lags of more than two frames are somewhat strange.
On the other hand there was a PC "multi media" monitor (all possible inputs available, integrated KVM, etc) I tested in the past that had the worst lag in game mode...
post #3958 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThomasSMTT View Post

Well, I have to agree that a "Game Mode" - if available - should really reduce the lag to a reasonable minimum. And it's no big deal to reach a 1-Frame lag or even less than that.
So any so called game mode with lags of more than two frames are somewhat strange.
Exactly what I was getting at!

I definitely care about image quality in a TV mode, though. But I do care about input lag in it's Game mode when gaming...

I just ordered one of those Leo Bodnar input lag tester devices. I'm hoping to hit up some stores next month and test some TVs. My local Fry's, Sam's Club and possibly Best Buy. I want to find a 65-70" TV that has 40ms or less of input lag in it's Game mode. I don't care about it's lag outside of Game mode, as long as video/audio are in sync. smile.gif

I'm pretty happy with my 60EX645 now, but I don't know the exact amount of lag it has in the Game mode. Looking at online reviews for 2012 Sonys, people were able to select Game scene and measure the lag usually says 32~40 ms of input lag... but no specific review on the 60EX645 and lag. Since Sony uses similar processing in it's TVs, I just assumed my TV fell in that category.

The picture on my Sony is decent, but I downgraded from a 73" DLP, in screen size, to this 60", and I'm actually missing the bigger screen... My wife is too. :P I changed out the DLP, though, due to geometry issues and a somewhat blurry PC desktop. Was fine for most gaming, though, even though it's lag I believe was in the 40ms range.

I think we only have two options for a 70" TV, though. A Vizio or a Sharp. I won't bother with Sharp unless it's a 2011 model unless the 2013 Sharp has the SOE bug outside of Game mode corrected for progressive sources.

I want to measure Vizio's E701i and also it's new 65" M-Series when I get my lag testing device. I will also test the new 2013 Sharps.

If the Sharp is decent and I can't detect SOE outside of Game mode, with the proper options disabled, then I will probably buy it over the Vizio due to the fact that the Sharp has a CMS. Of course, if the Vizio is 32ms in it's Game mode and the Sharp fails, I'll probably nab that. Vizio still supports W/B adjustments but has no CMS. You could easily get an iScan Duo to enable a CMS while adding less than a frame of extra lag outside of your TV's Game mode...

Then again, we have a lot more choices if we go to 65". Samsung should have some 65" TVs to test then too... And I believe all of the Samsungs, past the most cheapest model, have 10p W/B and CMS outside of Game mode. As long as it scores a decent input lag score in 2013 for Game mode, it would definitely be a contender for 65". LG too, I think!
post #3959 of 4189
Database updated! The total count of displays is now 74. Here are the new additions, Sony and Panasonic lovers rejoice:

39" COBY LEDTV3916
40" Haier LE40C13800
42" LG 42LM3400
47" LG 47CM565
50" LG 50PA5500
60" LG 60PA6500
42" Panasonic TC-L42E30
42" Panasonic TC-L42E50
50" Panasonic TC-P50UT50
55" Panasonic TC-P55VT50
55" Panasonic TC-P55ST50
55" Panasonic TC-P55ST30
40" Samsung UN40EH5000
40" Samsung UN40EH5300
46" Samsung UN46EH5300
46" Samsung UN46ES6500
46" Samsung UN46ES7500
51" Samsung PN51E490
51" Samsung PN51E6500
60" Samsung PN60E8000
40" Sony KDL40BX450
42" Sony KDL42EX440
46" Sony KDL46BX450
40" Sony KDL40EX640
50" Sony KDL50EX645
55" Sony KDL55HX850
40" Toshiba 40L5200U
40" Toshiba 40E210U

Some interesting notes: Samsung's PNE550 and UNES6500 Game Modes seem to be broken. I redid the measurements in PC mode, and the numbers have now changed to a more respectable number in the database. Game Mode seems to have no effect on their lag ratings.

My next update will be very soon, hopefully bringing my total displays close to 100 or more. You can visit the database here: http://www.displaylag.com/display-database/
post #3960 of 4189
Dude. You are AWESOME. Unfortunately, the stats are quite sad. ST50 - 40ms. **** me for loving street fighter, right?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: LCD Flat Panel Displays
AVS › AVS Forum › Display Devices › LCD Flat Panel Displays › Input lag wars!, post your input lag results of your LCD display here for reference