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Input lag wars!, post your input lag results of your LCD display here for reference - Page 17

post #481 of 4189
Does SMTT work on Windows 7?
post #482 of 4189
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Odysseus18 View Post

Does SMTT work on Windows 7?

Yes I have the 64 bit version
post #483 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by wondras View Post

It's not that I'm reading it incorrectly, it's that I'm looking for something different.

Since a given pixel on a 60Hz display is drawn every 17ms, the timer value should increase by that amount between frames. When you look at just one monitor in any SMTT picture, if a row has a ghost image from the previous frame, the time difference is always 17ms.

What I'm saying is that if the two monitor outputs are exactly synchronized, i.e., each pixel is created at exactly the same time for both screens, the number being displayed on a specific row will be the same for both outputs. The delayed values will be a multiple of 17 behind, just as for the previous frame on the single screen. If the difference is not a multiple of 17, then the outputs are not being created in sync, so you know you have a delay between ports. In my case the differences were about 20, indicating a 3-4ms delay.

This is different from measuring the actual input lag, where as you say, you look for the highest number on each screen, regardless of which row it's on. Since they are usually on different rows, the difference won't be a multiple of 17.

Maybe I really was thinking about this the wrong way, or not all the way through.

Looking back at the test pics I posted, I now see that while the images are not in sync, the times really are. In both of the mixed DVI/VGA pics, the pixels that are changing are on different rows, but the times that are changing are the same.

VGA-DVI
In this one, both screens are just starting to show 20.812. The positions are different, but the updates are happening at the same time.

DVI-VGA
In this one, on the left monitor 08.904 is just becoming clear, and on the right it's 08.905. Given the timer's 1000fps refresh rate, a 1ms difference is within its margin of error, so again the current screen updates are showing exactly the same time.

There's no lag between ports; they're just not synced. SMTT's high-resolution timer reveals this, but also factors it out of the tests (which is the part I was missing.) My TV tests reflect this; with various connection types I was getting different offsets for a given row, but the calculated input lag kept coming out the same.

Sorry if I confused anyone with this.
post #484 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by wondras View Post

There's no lag between ports; they're just not synced. SMTT's high-resolution timer reveals this, but also factors it out of the tests (which is the part I was missing.) My TV tests reflect this; with various connection types I was getting different offsets for a given row, but the calculated input lag kept coming out the same.

Sorry if I confused anyone with this.

Note, however, that this is only true when running the same resolution on both screens. If the video card is scaling to match the native resolution of an LCD, or to 480i on the TV output, this can still result in a delay between ports, which would affect input lag test results.

So I'm only half wrong.
post #485 of 4189
Hi everyone, I was wondering if anyone that happens to already own a Sony EX700 series lcd tv could post their input lag results since I have pretty much decided on buying the 32" version of the EX700 series. The reason I ask is because I no idea how to use this software, let alone where to buy it from.
post #486 of 4189
Don't recall if it's been mentioned frito but do you know if anyone's lag tested a Panny TC-37G1? I seem to recall your saying it may have more lag than yours due to the 120Hz MPP processing. I can't find any reviews that show input lag tests on it.
post #487 of 4189
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forrest Gump View Post

Hi everyone, I was wondering if anyone that happens to already own a Sony EX700 series lcd tv could post their input lag results since I have pretty much decided on buying the 32" version of the EX700 series. The reason I ask is because I no idea how to use this software, let alone where to buy it from.

the 52EX701 has been tested and its on the worst list in the top post of this thread

Quote:


ony 52EX701Appears to use Sharp's new X-Gen LCD panel

VGA in at 1024 x 768

5 frames delayed

HDMI in at 1024 x 768

5 frames delayed

owner tested it vs a CRT monitor and for the moment at least only tested it at this low resolution so its part of the cause of the lag but it's still lagging too much to account for simple scalier lag that normally averages at 10-20ms input lag at most, hopefully he will attempt to test at a higher resolution soon so we can see if lower numbers are possible but i doubt it will get into the gamer friendly range at this point. Tested by MetalAlien

if you got to the top post there are instructions on how to test for input lag and where to get the programs (both free ones and SMTT which i give copies out to users on here for free but only have win7/vista x64 and winXP 32bit versions at the moment

it is worth noting that traditionally 32" and smaller Sony TV's even if they have the same model number as their bigger brothers are often re-badged versions of a lower model set in the high end range so the 32EX700/701 may be completely differient performance wise than a 52EX700/701.
post #488 of 4189
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Def Fan View Post

Don't recall if it's been mentioned frito but do you know if anyone's lag tested a Panny TC-37G1? I seem to recall your saying it may have more lag than yours due to the 120Hz MPP processing. I can't find any reviews that show input lag tests on it.

That is correct, i've never seen it tested before but the European model TX-L37V10E that is 100hz and has some other craziness the G1 does not have like built in DVB sat receiver has been tested by an Italian review site and they say it had 5 ms lag so the G1 should perform just as good as the S1 with MPP3 turned off
post #489 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by wondras View Post

The only way to go from HDMI to VGA is with something like the HDFury:

Probably right about that. What I got (just in the mail today) is called a Wii/PS3 VGA cable. It takes the component output of the PS3, splits the audio off to separate plugs, and then plugs into the VGA input on your monitor. It does also work on the VGA input of the Vizio.....and while I can't be sure with any test, it does seem quicker than the HDMI. That could simply be a placebo effect tho.

Edit: I got to thinking....the Vizio VGA input has no settings for screen enhancements, only simple RGB and V-Pos type edits. So maybe the VGA input should be faster than the others just based on this. As if it bypasses the enhancement features/chips/whatever completely?

Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

bahnzo, how many pictures did you take on each input and what was your camera shutter speed at? 1/60? looks like it was higher and that is ok as long as you got the numbers in view

anyways what i'm getting at is in my experience with testing TV's using any timer but most notably those flash based timers is that if you take 10+ photos when using those timers you can end up with a numbers varying by 16ms and maybe even more (i've seen as much as 30ms variance)

if your running winXP 32bit i have a copy of SMTT for it now that i can give you that will yield more accurate results if you want to give it a go

I took as many as 10 pics on each input. Not sure of the shutter speed, but I did have issues with the CPU monitor not displaying the numbers all the time. I took the best (clearest) pic of each one to display, but there wasn't more than 1ms of difference between any pics of each input.

I'll certainly give the program you have a go. Send me a link or whatnot and I'll have a try someday soon. I'm 32bit WinXP.
post #490 of 4189
Thread Starter 
PM me your e-mail address and i will send you a copy of it, the program is free for private use but they do not provide download links unless you pay 5 euro's
post #491 of 4189
Thanks for the response Frito, hopefully your right about the 32" version of the EX700 series will be different from the large models but I'm defiantly still gonna go to my local Sony shop and see if they have the model in person to see if I find the input lag bad or not.
post #492 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

...the European model TX-L37V10E that is 100hz and has some other craziness the G1 does not have like built in DVB sat receiver has been tested by an Italian review site and they say it had 5 ms lag so the G1 should perform just as good as the S1 with MPP3 turned off

Great news, didn't know that. I may get that set then. Thanks frito.
post #493 of 4189
Is there any 50''-60'' HDTV that could be used for console gaming that won't result in screaming and throwing things asking "what just happened?"
post #494 of 4189
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by G342 View Post

Is there any 50''-60'' HDTV that could be used for console gaming that won't result in screaming and throwing things asking "what just happened?"


Panny Plasma's
LG LH90, SL80, possibly many other mid to high end LG's but they have not been tested before but have at least a decent chance of performing good
Sharp E67U,E77U, 700UN

plasma's will likely be the fastest but you need to take care not to play games on it (ones with static images at least) for the first 100 hours and also make sure you don't leave static images on the screen for more than 4-8 hours or it could start to result in perm burn in rather than reversible image retention.

plenty of people myself included play console games on Panny plasma's with no ill effects but you do need to not be careless when using one with a game console

the LG models will outperform the Sharp's slightly in general PQ according to most people, the Plasma's will have the best overall PQ esp higher models like the G10 and S1 but you need to research them and make sure they fit your bill
post #495 of 4189
There are some input lag tests that have been done on the EX500, tho I don't know how accurate these might be, since they were made with a laptop...

Here's the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy4p7yTpZ9w

Here's a picture:


How can those number, especially with a laptop, could be so high? I just puzzles me!
post #496 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by G342 View Post

Is there any 50''-60'' HDTV that could be used for console gaming that won't result in screaming and throwing things asking "what just happened?"


I understand your plight, and am in the same situation.

I eagerly awaited for the new Panny's, only to learn they still suffer from the black issues.

My current Samsung plasma, which I'm waiting for my refund check from them since this thing apparently cannot produce a acceptable picture, has about 65ms of lag, and I find myself often playing COD and getting knifed when I don't even see the people, getting shot after ( alteast I though ) I went around a corner, etc...

I considered the LH90, only to see it in person and be underwhelmed by the PQ.

The new Samsung C7000 seems to have promise, with some user here reporting only about 30ms of lag.
post #497 of 4189
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by motoracer51 View Post

I understand your plight, and am in the same situation.

I eagerly awaited for the new Panny's, only to learn they still suffer from the black issues.

My current Samsung plasma, which I'm waiting for my refund check from them since this thing apparently cannot produce a acceptable picture, has about 65ms of lag, and I find myself often playing COD and getting knifed when I don't even see the people, getting shot after ( alteast I though ) I went around a corner, etc...

I considered the LH90, only to see it in person and be underwhelmed by the PQ.

The new Samsung C7000 seems to have promise, with some user here reporting only about 30ms of lag.

yeah that was on the HDMI/DVI input labeled PC and getting 1080p and VGA input only, he's supposed to test game mode without the special PC mode on so we can get an idea how it would work with consoles at non native resolutions or via component video, if history repeats itself and it acts like a Samsung A series

they had very low lag in the above 2 situations only and game mode with 1080p had 45ms input lag and non native resolutions in game mode would start to skyrocket past 60ms quickly as you dropped below 1080p

the B series models broke the speed of the special HDMI/DVI PC mode i did read somewhere that samsung recognized that this had happened and claimed they would fix it with the C series and his C7000 test indicates that they are trying but 30ms is a far cry from the 5-10 ms that the A series got in this mode but 30ms is acceptable to most gamers but i can almost guarantee you it will only be like that at 1080p and on 2 input's only (the one labeled HDMI/DVI and the VGA input)
post #498 of 4189
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToiletSiphon View Post

There are some input lag tests that have been done on the EX500, tho I don't know how accurate these might be, since they were made with a laptop...

Here's the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy4p7yTpZ9w

Here's a picture:


How can those number, especially with a laptop, could be so high? I just puzzles me!

well i will tell you this about the accuracy of input lag tests, if it is inaccurate it is more than likely showing the TV to be faster than it actually is

in fact i can almost guarantee you it is.

you have two factors at work that will effect your readings as long as you only keep the lowest score ones you can make out (thus nullifying flash based timer and sync issues between the display, something that SMTT fixes for you and why i recommend it)

#1 the input and pixel lag of the control display will reduce the reading you come up with on the TV because if the control LCD has 5ms input lag (pretty common for a cheap LCD monitor actually) and about 5 ms pixel response time (also very common with cheap LCD's) then you can almost always add 10 ms to lag tests performed with a laptop or LCD monitor sometimes as much as 30ms though if you have a laggy VA PC monitor or a TN panel that has overdrive (RTC) that you cannot disable in its menus (most can disable it now because of input lag)

#2 port delay of the video card used to test, this is less common most Nvidia and ATI cards have little to no delay between their output ports when in clone mode provided they are at the same resolution (video card is not upscaling say 1680 x 1050 to 1080p, this happens a lot though in tests even ones i've done with my 8800GT) however at least Nvidia's scalier is so fast that doing this appears to only make the TV appear slower by around 5ms at most so its not a real big issue.

however there have been a couple instances where a person has found that their video card delays one of the outputs by exactly one frame or 16.6ms and if the TV happens to be connected to this port it looks 1 whole frame slower than it is, if its the other way around then the TV appears to be 1 frame faster than it is. this is easy to test for with a PC by swapping ports and doing the same test and comparing the results. with a laptop its still possible to check it as well as the LCD in the laptop for input lag by doing an input lag test on it vs a CRT monitor
post #499 of 4189
Well, that's pretty much what I thought. The laptop itself probably lags a little, so there is a chance that the EX500 input lag might be above 100ms... ugh!
post #500 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

Panny Plasma's
LG LH90, SL80, possibly many other mid to high end LG's but they have not been tested before but have at least a decent chance of performing good
Sharp E67U,E77U, 700UN

plasma's will likely be the fastest but you need to take care not to play games on it (ones with static images at least) for the first 100 hours and also make sure you don't leave static images on the screen for more than 4-8 hours or it could start to result in perm burn in rather than reversible image retention.

plenty of people myself included play console games on Panny plasma's with no ill effects but you do need to not be careless when using one with a game console

the LG models will outperform the Sharp's slightly in general PQ according to most people, the Plasma's will have the best overall PQ esp higher models like the G10 and S1 but you need to research them and make sure they fit your bill

I was recently looking at the 65''S1 Panny actually.. Does anyone in this thread have any experience playing on it?
So should I buy the Panasonic, after roughly a 100 hour break in period, I shouldn't have to worry about IR or burn in (to a point) when gaming ?
post #501 of 4189
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by G342 View Post

I was recently looking at the 65''S1 Panny actually.. Does anyone in this thread have any experience playing on it?
So should I buy the Panasonic, after roughly a 100 hour break in period, I shouldn't have to worry about IR or burn in (to a point) when gaming ?

correct, as long as your not abusing the TV and leaving static images up for 3-4 hours at a time regularly you will never get burn in and you will likely see some temp IR on a black screen but you can remove this easily and quickly by watching some normal HDTV on it or using the built in IR remover for 10-20 min or more depending on the amount of IR

we get IR on our panny 50X1 because my brother loves to listen to music using our asus O!play, it has a screen saver but he changes tracks so much that it rarely activates and lots of white static images n such are left on the screen for hours at a time, afterward I've only seen some really minor IR at night when the screen is black and the IR remover in the TV has removed it in less than 10 min each time i see it, on normal program material i never see this small amount of IR and during the day its impossible to see it on a black screen as well

i've yet to see IR incurred by playing video games on it because while there are static images on the screen in most games it does change from time to time and as long as you take breaks (i hope you do! hehe) and don't leave a game on a pause screen with the TV on you will not have problems ever. something useful many people do is when they are going to pause a game for a bit they either turn off the TV or switch it to a blank input
post #502 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by ToiletSiphon View Post

There are some input lag tests that have been done on the EX500, tho I don't know how accurate these might be, since they were made with a laptop...

Here's the video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yy4p7yTpZ9w

...

That looks like the same 2008 MacBook Pro I used for some of my tests. I measured it at less than one frame behind a CRT, probably more like .5. This was before I started using SMTT, so it's not a precise value, but it's enough to make me think it's reasonable for use as a benchmark display.

I have to say that 100ms is appalling for a "game" mode, but it matches my impression from some in-store testing of another Sony 120Hz set (V5100.) I don't have hard numbers, but it was slow in game mode, slower in 120Hz mode, and the motion smoothing didn't even work right -- it made Rock Band lyrics stutter and jump.


His other video of Counter Strike really shows how high lag can mess up your game. When he moves side to side quickly, you can see that he's sometimes facing in the opposite direction from what's shown on the TV.
post #503 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by G342 View Post

I was recently looking at the 65''S1 Panny actually.. Does anyone in this thread have any experience playing on it?
So should I buy the Panasonic, after roughly a 100 hour break in period, I shouldn't have to worry about IR or burn in (to a point) when gaming ?

If the game has a persistent HUD (which practically all of them do to some degree), black screen IR is guaranteed and can remain visible through several hours (or days) of "wiping" content (e.g. full screen TV, scroll bar wipe). This is what my G10 looked like after 15-20 hours of Dragon Age over 4 days. There were equal portions (15-20 hours) of general full screen TV viewing and Scroll Bar wipes interspersed over this same period. Camera is admittedly exaggerating the effect, but it was easily visible (in person) in a dark room. The reason you will see conflicting reports on this is due to environment. As bad as that looks, it would be virtually invisible with so much as a table lamp turned on in the room. If you don't have a critical environment, you might not notice it or care. It has always gone completely away in my experience, but it's a bit of an annoyance.
post #504 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Orta View Post

If the game has a persistent HUD (which practically all of them do to some degree), black screen IR is guaranteed and can remain visible through several hours (or days) of "wiping" content (e.g. full screen TV, scroll bar wipe). This is what my G10 looked like after 15-20 hours of Dragon Age over 4 days. There were equal portions (15-20 hours) of general full screen TV viewing and Scroll Bar wipes interspersed over this same period. Camera is admittedly exaggerating the effect, but it was easily visible (in person) in a dark room. The reason you will see conflicting reports on this is due to environment. As bad as that looks, it would be virtually invisible with so much as a table lamp turned on in the room. If you don't have a critical environment, you might not notice it or care. It has always gone completely away in my experience, but it's a bit of an annoyance.

No mention of your now-infamous rising black level thread?

Seriously, though, haven't some people reported increased IR after the MLL rise?

At least IR is a temporary nuisance. I haven't seen any reports of permanent burn-in on current plasmas.
post #505 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

...the B series models broke the speed of the special HDMI/DVI PC mode i did read somewhere that samsung recognized that this had happened and claimed they would fix it with the C series and his C7000 test indicates that they are trying but 30ms is a far cry from the 5-10 ms that the A series got in this mode but 30ms is acceptable to most gamers but i can almost guarantee you it will only be like that at 1080p and on 2 input's only (the one labeled HDMI/DVI and the VGA input)

So no 2010 (C series) models are lower than 30ms and you have to go back to 2008 models to get an A series? Did they make any 32-37" sizes in the A models, and do you know if there's any still around? I suppose even if there were they'd be inferior in any motion processing used. I noticed the smallest C series set is 40". I'm guessing the same is true of the A series, IF you can even find one.
post #506 of 4189
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Def Fan View Post

So no 2010 (C series) models are lower than 30ms and you have to go back to 2008 models to get an A series? Did they make any 32-37" sizes in the A models, and do you know if there's any still around? I suppose even if there were they'd be inferior in any motion processing used. I noticed the smallest C series set is 40". I'm guessing the same is true of the A series, IF you can even find one.

well so far we got 2 C series that have been tested one was a 720p 32" and in game mode it still had high lag, i think it was like 40-50ms something like that in the special PC mode at 720p

the C7000 someone posted in here in the special mode as well as VGA in tested low (30ms) but only with the LED motion setting or something turned on apparently (something new i guess on the sammy edge LED's)

i still hold out judgment on Samsung new line overall until i can see more tests done on various other models and get a clearer picture of what is going on with them and input lag
post #507 of 4189
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by wondras View Post

No mention of your now-infamous rising black level thread?

Seriously, though, haven't some people reported increased IR after the MLL rise?

At least IR is a temporary nuisance. I haven't seen any reports of permanent burn-in on current plasmas.

yes there has been reports of more rapid IR after the voltage increase that causes the black rise, this makes sense because its a build up of excess voltage in the cells that is what causes IR but as Orta said this type of IR only becomes apparent in a very dark room with no lights on with an all black screen on the TV, if you turn on a light its gone or barely visible if its bad IR and with watching normal TV and movies that have been zoomed to crop the black bars (i always watch movies like that on our plasma anyways i hate bars) you will never see TIR on a panny plasma even after the voltage/black rise happens

our 50X1 has now clocked just over 400 hours and should have had the first voltage increase happen by now yet i still see no real change in IR or black levels on it, i guess only time will tell after 1k hours if it becomes a problem to my eyes but thus far it is not
post #508 of 4189
interesting thread just to chime in about the A650 Samsung LCD TVs with the special HDMI2/PC mode or VGA input. The low lag was only available for the 40", 46", 52" A650 LCD TV models. The low lag was not available for below 40" A650 TVs even if put in PC mode or VGA sadly.

The components inside was actually different between the 37" and below A650 TVs and the 40"+ A650 LCD TVs (plasmas idk about them). For one thing the A650 40" and up were guaranteed Samsung panels (better quality) but ironically had the faster mode for input lag lol and none of the crap with the B series. The 37" A650 and below TVs weren't guaranteed Samsung panels if it even had the S-panels.
post #509 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hi Def Fan View Post

So no 2010 (C series) models are lower than 30ms and you have to go back to 2008 models to get an A series? Did they make any 32-37" sizes in the A models, and do you know if there's any still around? I suppose even if there were they'd be inferior in any motion processing used. I noticed the smallest C series set is 40". I'm guessing the same is true of the A series, IF you can even find one.

New A-series sets are long gone. You'd have to take your chances on a used one. CORRECTION: There's a handful listed on Amazon right now, but you'll pay as much or more than you would for a C-series.

It's also worth noting that the PC mode significantly degrades the picture quality. From what I've read in the A650 threads, it's tolerable, but if your primary use is gaming, an A650 probably isn't your best choice.
post #510 of 4189
Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

well so far we got 2 C series that have been tested one was a 720p 32" and in game mode it still had high lag, i think it was like 40-50ms something like that in the special PC mode at 720p

the C7000 someone posted in here in the special mode as well as VGA in tested low (30ms) but only with the LED motion setting or something turned on apparently (something new i guess on the sammy edge LED's)

i still hold out judgment on Samsung new line overall until i can see more tests done on various other models and get a clearer picture of what is going on with them and input lag

We need to consolidate and clarify this info. It's getting too spread out and confusing.

So certain screen sizes of the A series had a decent lag time over its VGA connection, but image quality suffered.

Now on one particular 1080P C model we are seeing 30 ms when compared to an lcd monitor (I thought this means more like 47ms) in special mode (what the heck is that and was it not using a VGA connection?) and VGA mode (with a VGA adaptor from the game system I'm assuming) when LED motion setting turned on (what the heck is this and does it improve motion blurring)? We predict that turning on game mode will actually increase lag. And we have no confirmation of what the B series could or couldn't do.

We need to clean this up.
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