Lag results - Samsung A750 vs B650 - Also my Opinion on them both compared

For some time now I've been in dire search for a display that can be a PC monitor for gaming/web-browsing and still be able to sit back and enjoy a movie in a big screen fashion. So factors that are important to me are:

a) Picture quality (of course this is first right)
b) Motion smoothing (because i'm extra sensitive to low FPS - I actually like SOE)
c) Low input lag (for the online twitch games)
d) 40-42" (once you use a huge screen for a PC, you can't go back)
e) Windows text quality (hard to live with fuzzy text)

Probably in that order although they all weigh heavily in my decision making.

Now after going through several displays (through the help of Fry's/Best Buy return policy), from Samsung, Sony, Mitsubishi, Panasonic, Toshiba and even Hitachi , I've narrowed to two Samsungs. Now mind you, this isn't because they are the best displays out there, not by any means. Just that they seem to be close enough to what I'm looking for and frankly, I'm getting pretty tired of the endless searching, returning and testing.

Now ever since I got the B650, I must admit that I was becoming attached to it, despite its ugly chin design (what were they thinking). Its whites are just a tad whiter than the a750, the blacks a bit more black. There's just a bit more POP to the picture, perhaps because of slightly better contrast. Note the words, 'just a bit more' - we're not taking a huge difference here! Both have the lovely gloss screen, although the b650 does suffer from slight flash lighting from all four corners, it makes up for it with its ability to have a darker overall black. I was also liking the new customizable AMP settings. I thought for sure the b650 was going to be my keeper. That was until... I did the lag tests.

Yes, that's right folks. I'm sad to report, It looks as though Samsung has made their displays SLOWER this year than last.

Before I show you my screenshots, Let me first explain why I post primary vs. secondary screenshots. It's because, at least in my setup, it makes a difference. The Primary display (in clone mode) throughout all my testing always seems to have nearly a frame advantage (about 16ms). So always take note of that when you see my screenshots! The primary display has a slight advantage in speed. So if the primary is losing to a secondary, then you KNOW it's bad!

Without further ado, here are the numbers (B650 on left, A750 on right on ALL pics!):


Samsung b650 hdmi1 AMP sliders maxed vs Samsung a750 AMP on High: Both no Dynamic contrast or black enhancements - b650 primary








Samsung b650 hdmi1 AMP sliders maxed vs Samsung a750 AMP on High: Both no Dynamic contrast or black enhancements - a750 primary








Samsung b650 Hdmi1 named "DVI PC" vs Samsung a750 HDMI2-PC - b650 primary








Samsung b650 Hdmi1 named "DVI PC" vs Samsung a750 HDMI2-PC - a750 primary








Samsung b650 hdmi1 named "HDMI1-PC" vs Samsung a750 named HDMI2-PC - b650 primary








Samsung b650 hdmi1 "Game Mode" vs Samsung a750 HDMI2-PC - b650 primary








Samsung b650 VGA Mode vs Samsung a750 HDMI2-PC - b650 primary









So it looks as though I'll be returning the b650. I just can't in good conscious choose the b650 over the a750 knowing the PQ is only slightly better but at a cost to input latency in every mode. Perhaps to some of you guys however, it may be worth it. Also, I should note that the b650 would cost me $150 buxs more than the a750.

BTW just so everyone knows, EVERY panel i lag tested these past few months was ALWAYS behind my GF's panny 32lz800 as far as lag, even a samsung in VGA or HDMI2-PC mode. As far as I'm concerned it IS the lag king. Now if only Panny would make them in larger sizes with 120hz.

That's kinda what I was thinking. They'll most likely post simular results... but who knows! I do know one thing, the b750 will be outta my price range as I'm already streching it, as it is with either this a750 or b650.

The only 09 Samsung panels I think *may* have better input lag results is perhaps their 60hz b550 panels. Why? Because you can't truely turn 120hz off on these Samsung upper models and it's known the extra processing 120hz screens do, adds latency. Infact this is why MANY ppl believe HDTVs will get laggier before they get better UNLESS there's a big enough outcry from gamers to force manufactures to make a REAL "Game mode". One that doesn't lower the latency only a miniscule 30%. Alas, 'game mode' is VERY much an after thought.

I know - it's a dilemma. I was this close to setting up a Plasma as my PC display but after hanging out in the Plasma forums, all the talk about breaking it in, temp and perm IR and green ghosting, jeez you just can't win. It would be my luck that I leave my system on, it locks up or freezes because of over clocking and the screen saver doesn't activate and I come home to a permanent image of my desktop on my screen.

And yah, without game mode, it would guess the lag would eclipse 100ms. I can feel it with my mouse in Windows, it's pretty damn bad. The toshiba 540u I tested isn't as bad when not in game mode, but I didn't care for the poor PQ, bad viewing angles, and it's less agressive motion smoothing (it's hardly noticable). The Sonys I tested were even worse than the a750, actually about the same as this b650 I'd say as far as lag is concerned.

So far the A750 with it's ability to do HDMI2-PC has been the best compromise I can come up with.

I didn't do game mode vs game mode, because at that point, I was already convinced that the a750 was just faster period and I wanted to see if any mode of the b650 would match the a750's infamous HDMI2-PC mode as that was my benchmark for others to compete against. I can do a game mode vs game mode if you like but I'm pretty sure I can already guess the outcome.

Also yah that's why I didn't try one test with the AMP sliders half way or something, because even with AMP off, the set just isn't that fast. But again, I still have the TV for a few hours more before I return it, so any last requests, better tell me now...

Also I agree HDMI2-PC mode looks like crap. But when it comes to online play, I'd rather have A OPTION than none at all to reduce the lag as much as possible. You gotta remember that I was used to the LZ800 and in ANY SETTING, it beats both Samsungs, HDMI2-PC mode or not.

Again finding out the B650 was significantly slower was disappointing news. If I could discover a mode that DOES allow it to be as fast as the A750, I would be returning the A750. Another perk of the B650 is while in HDMI1-PC mode, or HDMI-DVI-PC, mode (it has two "PC" settings btw) both of them look FAR better than the A750 in its PC mode. It doesn't wash everything out or turn sharpness in to what seems like, the negative.

Interesting. You know I read something bout that here on AVS a while back but forgot completely. I'd be surprised if this is the case as turning it in to game or PC mode on this B650 DID have an effect, you could easily feel how much better the mouse responded in windows. But I'll give that a try and post pics if I find out it had an affect!

Yah I thought for sure the VGA was going to be the solution. And it would have been something I would have been satisfied with. Dissappointment really set in at that moment. But I'm going to run a quick couple of tests as OneDeadlyBum suggested. One last shred of hope that it's just a bug and I need to power down the set turn it back on...

OK I just tested the B650 against the A750, both in GAME mode by changing it in the "setup" in their respective menus. I power cycled them both to be sure the bug mentioned above wasn't happening.

Surprisingly they are just about dead even with only a slightest advantage to which monitor is set to be primary. However on in their respective PC modes, it didn't change the outcome. The A750 still had at least a frame lead.

I actually think Samsung just made a change to PC mode by leaving some video processing on as they probably got complaints that PC mode on the A series washes everything out. There's definitely a PQ difference between the B650's PC mode and the A750s. The B650 looks far better in PC mode. Since it was never Samsung's intention to have PC mode as a solution to reduce lag further from Game mode, this is probably their "Fix" for the poor PQ in PC Mode of the A series.

So is game mode enough for most people? Probably. But remember Game mode on a Samsung is at least a frame behind A750's PC mode. And the A750's PC mode is at least a frame behind an LZ800. And a LZ800 is damn fast, but it is NOT as fast as a CRT (it has some lag of course).

My suspicion is Samsung's Game mode would be around 40-60ms (3-4 frames) when compared to a CRT. It makes a difference still as it's alot better than when not on Game mode! I actually find it to be a chore to navigate the mouse when in Standard mode! That goes for the A750, B650, the Sony Z4100, the Mitsu 40148, every display that's 120hz beside the toshiba. But would it affect you with timing sensitive games? I think so. Those who love fighting games usually will be the first to feel it, next is competitive only shooters.


If anyone else has any suggestions let me know.