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Epson Calibration Guide! (1080, 1080UB, 6100, 6500UB, 7500UB) - Page 2

post #31 of 730
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug goldberg View Post

Onto gamut. I measured the window 100% stim pri/sec colors and set the Y value in the CMS. Now I'm a little confused whats next. I think I now use the 75% sat / 100% brightness windows to dial in the rest of the CMS controls. From what measurements do I enter values in Dan's sheet to get the target values? I'm confused about this. Never had a CMS before. Its fun but very time consuming....

Glad to hear that your gamma turned out well.

Yes, you want to use the 75% sat / 100% brightness windows to calibrate. The x, y locations for these points, and target for Y are in my spreadsheet, cells G3 thru J10. Remember, when you adjust saturation, the brightness (Y) will change so you will have to keep an eye on both.

Dan
post #32 of 730
Dan, my gamma curve is amazing. When I started on the Y values in the CMS my red never got the correct value. The control range peaked out before it quite hit the target. Is this a concern?

Also I note the audio reference in your tag line. Are you an old audiophile like me?
post #33 of 730
Thread Starter 
Yes, I'm an audiophile at heart too. Now with these projectors, and movies on Blu-ray, it's hard to find time to just listen to music. I spend most of my time watching movies now, when I'm using my AV equipemt.

When you mention Red, have you tried caibrating red to the 75% x, y location first, and then adjust brightness? I typically dial in the saturation and hue before I adjust the brightness. Brightness starts at zero for all six colors, and one at a time I adjust the saturation, hue and then brightness for each color.
post #34 of 730
Thread Starter 
smallpooldad, I created a link to your checklist and walkthrough in the beginning of my calibration guide above. Thanks for writing it up. Very helpful for folks.

People had been asking me to create this guide for quite a while, and your checklist finally gave me the push to put it together.

Dan
post #35 of 730
Dan,

I'll give the 75% first a whirl in my next cal session.

I'm really an audio guy at heart. Designed a bunch of my own stuff and some for others as well. I see home theater as just a way to have more speakers and amps! In the Ipod generation audio quality has really taken a step back but I'm still amazed by how good a compressed, perceptually coded audio source can sound. I've been ripping all my audio to FLAC and hosting it on a server in the house for streaming. Just started doing that with video via a PopcornHour video streamer. Even my 1080I AVCHD home movies look incredible on the Epson. Now if I can just get that color gamut right....
post #36 of 730
Dan,

____________________________________________________________ ________________________

Calibration Notes:

Yes it was the contrast I lowered it to read below 11 ftL, actually 10.45.

This then had to up the Gamma from 2.0 to 2.1, which initially gave a 2.19 reading. For some reason one cannot properly adjust a 2.0 Gamma on the Epson 6100, one has to go higher.

Individual Gammas were all over the map, but I could now semi-control them with Custom Gamma, the first as 10% you will see on the attached file is a little high but if I lower it with the No. 1, first place after the far left (which I do not touch), it also lowers 20% gray too much. I noticed today that 10% is also to high, want your 2.15, so will adjust that gain downwards and see how it looks.

This is the best I can do in Gamma; it is definitely contrast biased, the lower the contrast, the better the Gamma, but it will affect ftl. My Gamma came in at 2.24 on average, and the ftL dropped to 9.396, which with a Lux meter reading is a real 10.45 ftL, adjusted to a 1.24 gain 110" screen.

____________________________________________________________ ______________

I think the file looks pretty good, not perfect a little out of the color triangle, but the picture is beautiful, far better than my previously perfectly calibrated "Dummies Method" "Theater Black 1", which has an ftL of 11.6. When I compare the two it is like one of those before and after washing powder ads.

"Does you picture look dull and lifeless, has saturation, hue and brightness, been ruining your day. Well, try "Dan the Man's Secret 75% Formula" and your life will change. Previously tired looking 11.6 ftL Theater Black 1's become lifelike, sparkling Natural mode 9.396 ftL, more vibrance, real natural colors, brighter pictures, and Penelope Cruz looks "Good enough to......." First there was light and then there was Dan's light, try it you will be amazed"

Dan, you get the idea. The file may not look perfect but when I put it up against the Theater Black 1 “Dummies” perfect calibration, “Oh My Goodness”, it blows it away with "Hurricane Force" and appears far brighter, simply amazing. It actually looks very close to my near perfectly calibrated high-end Samsung 55” vividness.

Blacks look amazing, the shadow detail is incredible. Watching the final scene in "Quantum of Solice" inside the crashing Palazzo in Venice was always a little painful in the past, I always thought well the Epson 6100 just cannot so what the Epson 6500UB can do great dark shadow detail, was I ever wrong, now I can see detail and variances of color that was just plain muddy black before. The perfectly calibrated "Theater Black 1", looks, dull and washed out by comparison.

I realize I could tighten it up but I spent many (7) hours getting to this and it was early in the morning hours when I went to bed. I found trying to get the perfect x,y, and Ys was very difficult. When I changed one the others would change too much, so after an initial set. I re-adjusted each for the best balance trying not to let any of the numbers on the RGBCMY controls be way too far left or right. This seemed to produce the best compromise and definitely the best looking colors. Large adjustments, although giving better numbers gave funky colors.


It was calibrated using the spreadsheet to 2.22, and the Y was set to the Y after the initial brightness settings, no hue or saturation were yet set in RGBCMY. Then I did the saturation tests for all colors and posted them into the spreadsheet and worked on the hue, saturations, and brightness again with the adjusted spreadsheet numbers.

The "Near White" looks spot on. The "Near Black" which in most calibrations is never too good, is actually visible, the curve is good, albeit a little low due to the higher Gamma at 10% (will adjust), and my blacks have far more detail but are not light or washed out.

I think I am going to sing a few verses of "Deutschland Deutschland über alles" at the French restaurant tonight that should go down well. I actually lived in France for a few years and unlike some people I loved them and their country, so much more fun than when I lived in Munich, Germany. But come to think of it Penelope might not like that. No I think I might reward myself with a late night Penelope Cruz movie instead, after the wife’s gone to sleep.

If you have and suggestions regarding the attached file, please let me know.

Would changing color or hue help the triangle?

____________________________________________________________ __________________________________

Next week, I may try re-calibrating with a lower contrast, therefore a lower ftL, but a higher Gamma Setting in the menu of say 2.2, or 2.3. Why because Gamma is more easily controlled. I think I may get a more perfect looking file, but I wonder if the picture will be better looking. It might, I will have to see and report back to you.

____________________________________________________________ __________________________________


Finally, thank you so much, you must be a very smart person to have thought through this incredible system. I know I could never have created it. Congratulations.

 

6thNatural5500kGamma21CustomColor.zip 4.8935546875k . file
post #37 of 730
Thread Starter 
First, the calibration is looking great!!! The thing I notice is your green saturation and hue. It's oversaturated and to skewed towards cyan. If you can work on green that would probably help your calibration even better.

Also, red and yellow saturation looks a little high. The hue looks pretty good though.

Gamma looks great, as does grayscale, so do the primary and secondary brightness levels.

Here's a hint, which I'm not sure you are using, but it's helped me. When adjusting for hue, I look at the three color bars to the left of the cd/m2 and ftL readout. It makes hue adjustments go very fast. For example, if you are adjusting hue for red, you want the green and blue bar to be the same level. So if green is at 64% and blue is at 57%, then you need to adjust the hue slider bar onthe epson more towards blue. This works for all colors. If you are adjusting yellow, you want equal levels of green and red bars... If you are adjusting green, you want equal blue and red bars. If you are adjusting cyan you want equal green and blue bars... It doesn't matter what level the bars read, you just want them to be the same. The levels of the bars change overall when you adjust saturation.

Dan
post #38 of 730
Dan, I went through my first full cal with the 75% method tonight. The CIE was ugly when I started. My curves look pretty much like yours now in that it the sat goes bonkers after 75%. Ok I think I get this now. This is really a test run as I'm in the process a making a new screen and will have to recal once its up. Dan and Pool-Dad what to you gents use for screens? I'm spraying the C&S mix (from hometheatertalk forums) onto white hardboard. My second choice was to buy a Carada BW but I think the DIY are very close if done right.
post #39 of 730
Dan and Smallpooldad

Thanks a million for putting this excellent tutorial together! Dan remember way back in one of the 6500 calibration thread that I asked you to put together a dummies guide? Thanks for taking the time out and doing it.
post #40 of 730
Dan,

Great tip, I never knew that, I'll add it to the checklist.

Thank you.
post #41 of 730
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug goldberg View Post

Dan, I went through my first full cal with the 75% method tonight. The CIE was ugly when I started. My curves look pretty much like yours now in that it the sat goes bonkers after 75%. Ok I think I get this now. This is really a test run as I'm in the process a making a new screen and will have to recal once its up. Dan and Pool-Dad what to you gents use for screens? I'm spraying the C&S mix (from hometheatertalk forums) onto white hardboard. My second choice was to buy a Carada BW but I think the DIY are very close if done right.

I use a Da-lite High Contrast Matte White screen. (HCMW) I tested a lot of the Da-lite screen materials, and this was the best balance of whites and blacks. It's a slightly grey screen, not bright white. I think the gain is supposed to be around 1.1. You can get a pull-down version for a great price. I think my 106" screen was around $200 delivered.

Quote:
Originally Posted by den110 View Post

Dan and Smallpooldad

Thanks a million for putting this excellent tutorial together! Dan remember way back in one of the 6500 calibration thread that I asked you to put together a dummies guide? Thanks for taking the time out and doing it.

Yeah, I remember, and I'm glad to help.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smallpooldad View Post

Dan,

Great tip, I never knew that, I'll add it to the checklist.

Thank you.

Sounds good. That got me thinking. I wonder if for each 75% saturation location, there is a specific %of Red, Green and Blue. I think that assumption is correct. That would make things very simple. You could just adjust saturation until the primary read the correct %. For example, if you have the red 75% saturation pattern up, in the Epson RGBCMY menu, you would just move the red saturation until the red % read 378% (see below), then you would adjust Hue unil the Green and Red bar both read 24%. This would be much easier than trying to remember which way to move around in the x,y color space.

I typed the 75% locations into HCFR and this is what it gave me for the percentages.

Code:
                     Red Bar Green Bar Blue Bar
Red Primary            378%     24%     24%
Green Primary          15%      133%    15%
Blue Primary           64%      64%     555%
Yellow Secondary      106%     106%     17%
Cyan Secondary         24%      120%    120%
Magenta Secondary      247%     41%     247%

Can anyone verify that this would work? I can't see why not. Of coarse brightness for the colors still need to be set also, but this may be a very simple way to hit your target locations for saturation and Hue.
Dan
post #42 of 730
Hi Dan,
I have CalMan and I'm just starting to work with it. I know you use HCFR and was wondering if the CalMan data would work in your spreadsheet. I'm new at calibrating, so don't know if the measurement data are generic and could be plugged in, or if your model is specific to HCFR. I don't know if you are familiar with CalMan, so it may not be a fair question.
Any thoughts?

Jim

PS Great work BTW
post #43 of 730
Dan, I love your percent method idea. This would greatly simplify the procedure eliminating the need to copy from measurements into your spreadsheet. Is the brightness not also a percent of Y reading at 100%? I might give that a go. You are the man. BTW I've been tinkering with various DIY paint mixes including N7/N8 greys. i really love what happens to the blacks and the color pop. I've got a pretty small screen 84" so I have plenty of lumens to spare.
post #44 of 730
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jo5507 View Post

Hi Dan,
I have CalMan and I'm just starting to work with it. I know you use HCFR and was wondering if the CalMan data would work in your spreadsheet. I'm new at calibrating, so don't know if the measurement data are generic and could be plugged in, or if your model is specific to HCFR. I don't know if you are familiar with CalMan, so it may not be a fair question.
Any thoughts?

Jim

PS Great work BTW

Thanks. It's been a while since I've used Calman and I can't remember how the numbers are output. I'm sure you could get the x, y and Y numbers that you need, but it will probably be more cumbersome. Otherwise, just download HCFR and use that. It's free.

Quote:
Originally Posted by doug goldberg View Post

Dan, I love your percent method idea. This would greatly simplify the procedure eliminating the need to copy from measurements into your spreadsheet. Is the brightness not also a percent of Y reading at 100%? I might give that a go. You are the man. BTW I've been tinkering with various DIY paint mixes including N7/N8 greys. i really love what happens to the blacks and the color pop. I've got a pretty small screen 84" so I have plenty of lumens to spare.


Yeah, I think I used a N8 screen for a little while using Behr paint. Looks very good. With a screen that size you can get away with the grey screen and still get decent whites.

The bars that show %red, %green, and %blue are independent of the Y level. They just show the mix of red, green and blue. You still need to calculate the correct Y level for each color based off your 100% grey window.

Dan
post #45 of 730
Hi Dan ,

I may not have an Epson , yet , but I am enjoying your Calibration Guide . Well Done ! If it doesn't seem too nit-picky can you explain two entries from your Graphics pasting in the first Post ? In the HCFR shot you show "Y" at 100% at 16.872 . In your spreadsheet you show "Y" at 16.975 . These may have come from two different Runs but I want to be sure I'm not missing anything in your process .

Thanks ,

Scott............
post #46 of 730
Thread Starter 
Yes, those were just from two different runs. Good eye.

Dan
post #47 of 730
Dan, Roj on Y values. Im curious why you did not try any of the N8_N9 paint mixes, Do you think the DA-light is better or just like the convenience of a pull down.
post #48 of 730
Hi Dan ,
Thanks ! Didn't want to think I'd missed a step .
We do know , don't we , that the 100% Stimulus Pattern on the AVSHD Disk is correct ? I'm sure I saw the answer to this in their Thread but can't find it now.

So , would it not be interesting to have an 80%,85%,90% and 95% Stim Patterns as well to see which one would put the xyY coordinates on the REC709 triangle? Do you think this would improve the Picture at all ?

I think it would be interesting to find out at what point or level the Epson CMS becomes non-linear if in fact that is what's happening .Very interesting stuff.

Thanks again ,

Scott..........................
post #49 of 730
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug goldberg View Post

Dan, Roj on Y values. Im curious why you did not try any of the N8_N9 paint mixes, Do you think the DA-light is better or just like the convenience of a pull down.

Honestly, I can't remember how dark my grey painted screen was. It may have been N9. It looked very good, but was more grey than the Da-lite and it was temporary. I know I wanted a pull-down screen, so I was just using the back of a sheet of drywall to project onto with the grey paint. It did look very good though, and would work just fine. It was a little too dark of a grey for me, but I don't remember if I used N8 or N9. I like the Da-lite better, but the paint could have worked too. It just dropped lumens a little too much for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_R_K View Post

Hi Dan ,
Thanks ! Didn't want to think I'd missed a step .
We do know , don't we , that the 100% Stimulus Pattern on the AVSHD Disk is correct ? I'm sure I saw the answer to this in their Thread but can't find it now.

So , would it not be interesting to have an 80%,85%,90% and 95% Stim Patterns as well to see which one would put the xyY coordinates on the REC709 triangle? Do you think this would improve the Picture at all ?

I think it would be interesting to find out at what point or level the Epson CMS becomes non-linear if in fact that is what's happening .Very interesting stuff.

Thanks again ,

Scott..........................

Yep, the 100% saturation, 100% stimulus patterns are correct. They've been checked.

I'm just glad that they had the forthought to put these 0, 25%. 50%. 75% and 100% saturation patterns on there. Otherwise I would have never found the problem with the Epson CMS, and I'd be chasing my tail. The patterns you mention would be nice to have also, for the reason you mention.

Dan
post #50 of 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

That got me thinking. I wonder if for each 75% saturation location, there is a specific %of Red, Green and Blue. I think that assumption is correct. That would make things very simple. You could just adjust saturation until the primary read the correct %. For example, if you have the red 75% saturation pattern up, in the Epson RGBCMY menu, you would just move the red saturation until the red % read 378% (see below), then you would adjust Hue unil the Green and Red bar both read 24%. This would be much easier than trying to remember which way to move around in the x,y color space.

I typed the 75% locations into HCFR and this is what it gave me for the percentages.

Code:
                     Red Bar Green Bar Blue Bar
Red Primary            378%     24%     24%
Green Primary          15%      133%    15%
Blue Primary           64%      64%     555%
Yellow Secondary      106%     106%     17%
Cyan Secondary         24%      120%    120%
Magenta Secondary      247%     41%     247%

Can anyone verify that this would work? I can't see why not. Of coarse brightness for the colors still need to be set also, but this may be a very simple way to hit your target locations for saturation and Hue.
Dan

Posted to check list.

Will not have time to do another calibration until Wednesday.

Added the following based on experience to the checklist:

"4. Adjust tripod until meter gives highest ftL in HCFR software. Be careful the brightest part of your screen may not be dead center if you ceiling or floor mount, or if table mounted above or below dead center"

Once again thank you for another great tip
post #51 of 730
Thread Starter 
O.k., so I tried out the % trick(red, green, blue % bars), and it works fantastic. Cuts down on calibration time tremendously. No more thinking about x and y. Much more straight forward this way. I'll have to write it up tomorrow. I even got Dynamic mode looking pretty good, which is great because my lumens more than doubled! (green is still a problem, but red and blue are fantastic.) Will definitely use this mode for watching sports, and maybe even some movies.

Dan
post #52 of 730
Dan, you ARE the man. Now if you can just figure out a way to have my projector self-calibrate every 100hrs I'd really appreciate that....
post #53 of 730
Love the idea to adjust the colors %wise.
Thinking of it, that was how I adjusted secondary colors earlier. The circle is closed

I still have only calibrated one "mode"(Natural without iris) to 75% so I might look into more later on (low brightness with iris, high brightness w/wo iris).
Summer coming up and I probably will more lumens to survive the summer months up here. The "damn yellow bulb" stays up long past midnight mid-summer. (Need a batcave...)

Anyway, enjoying the picture now, and will do a few movies in the next few days. Enjoy the fruits of my labour so to speak before calibrating some more.

Thanks guys!
post #54 of 730
Guys,
Looking to calibrate a 6500 with HCFR, shopping for probes, just wanted to make sure the Spyder2Express (Win/Mac), will work for this (whether official or not) or if there is a better affordable probe that will work for Win and Mac (Spyder3TV).

Thanks,
Cory
post #55 of 730
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by doug goldberg View Post

Dan, you ARE the man. Now if you can just figure out a way to have my projector self-calibrate every 100hrs I'd really appreciate that....

Thanks. ...and wouldn't that be nice!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Meenenator View Post

Love the idea to adjust the colors %wise.
Thinking of it, that was how I adjusted secondary colors earlier. The circle is closed

I still have only calibrated one "mode"(Natural without iris) to 75% so I might look into more later on (low brightness with iris, high brightness w/wo iris).
Summer coming up and I probably will more lumens to survive the summer months up here. The "damn yellow bulb" stays up long past midnight mid-summer. (Need a batcave...)

Anyway, enjoying the picture now, and will do a few movies in the next few days. Enjoy the fruits of my labour so to speak before calibrating some more.

Thanks guys!

Yeah, you need to sit back and enjoy the picture once in a while.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pottscb View Post

Guys,
Looking to calibrate a 6500 with HCFR, shopping for probes, just wanted to make sure the Spyder2Express (Win/Mac), will work for this (whether official or not) or if there is a better affordable probe that will work for Win and Mac (Spyder3TV).

Thanks,
Cory

Not sure. I have the Eye-One Display LT, which I think runs around $135. Works well.


By the way, I updated my guide to include the % method. It works wonderfully, and is very intuative and fast.

Dan
post #56 of 730
Hi Dan ,
Regarding your Spreadsheet , when I enter my xyY Data for RGBYCM on the INPUT DATA Tab for the 100% Saturation Field and then check the "dots" on the x,y,Gamut Chart Tab , all the xy values I've entered are properly reflected in the pop-up window next to the Dot [b][u]except[b][u] for the Magenta entry .

For my example , x=.319 y=.171 on the Input Data Tab . On the Chart this becomes x=.319155 and y=.1978 . None of the other points give this many decimal places either .

Is there an error in the Graphic Calculation possibly ?

Scott...................
post #57 of 730
Thread Starter 
I'll take a look and get back to ya.

I looked. Everything seems fine. Are you sure you didn't accidentally copy the same information from HCFR into two different colors?

Dan
post #58 of 730
Hi Dan ,

Found the problem . Since I only entered Data for the 100% Stimulus Field and this value was less than the default 75& Stim , the 75% Stim Dot overlaid the 100% dot . When I changed the value slightly for the 75% value , the 100% dot appeared from underneath .

All is well Thanks for looking .

Scott........................
post #59 of 730
Dan,

Added the following to the check list's Grayscale Calibration Section, found in the HCFR Calibration forum:

"A helpful tip from a post by Bill Mitchell: "Reducing the gains and increasing the offsets, you would reduce the upward slope in the red/blue at the high end"

Added by me for clarification purposes: "In other words if the upward slope for blue at the high end were too high you would reduce gains and try increasing the offsets, if too low the opposite would be true, you can do this for red separately"

Hope that is ok by you, if not let me know.

Thank you
post #60 of 730
Dan,

A question, if I decided to calibrate "Dynamic" in say a Gamma of 2.5 would I need to, using the spreadsheet, go to the Bill Mitchell's "Ref Points Adj for Gamma" page and copy the "Formatted for Gamut/Saturation spreadsheet reference values" to the "Saturation Values (Cells H2:M31)" in the "Input Data" page?

Or is this already done automatically?

I am not doing that right now but it was just a thought.


Thank you
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