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Epson Calibration Guide! (1080, 1080UB, 6100, 6500UB, 7500UB) - Page 19

post #541 of 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by d4g View Post

ok knd i did another with no offset matrix that i used before just i1lt display as is

have a look and let me know which is better.... your offset matrix or i1 as is

thanx for all your help dan and knd

thanx Denis

They both look very good. We're not going to be able to tell which one is better because we don't know if your LT's red is off. You need to run through the calibrated gray scale and see which one looks more correct to your eye. With my LT, once I created the offset I could see that without the offset there was a red push in almost all of the windows, and the offset looked more correct (light gray was grayer, if you will).

If you want to burn many more hours you can try and flatten your gamma by using the custom sliders. The sliders affect more than one area so you will run many, many gray scales to flatten it. Just remember don't move the 1st or the last slider. Also, as Dan has suggested work from right to left. I have found that the 2nd from the right affects everything from about 60 IRE up to 90. Then the 3rd from the right affects 40 - 60, and as you work to the left they have a narrower band of influence until you get to the 2nd from the left and that one almost exclusively affects on the 10 IRE with some small inpact on 20 IRE. Remember pulling down a slider movers the gamma up (to a higher number).

Good luck.
post #542 of 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knd View Post

I put in my new bulb and with less than 5 hours on it, we had another very brief outage - the lights flickered, and the projector turned off. I left the unit off for over an hour, turned it back on and set high altitude mode on (fan runs faster). I also ordered the PP800 sw, so I'll let those that are interested the results.

Final update. The PP800 SW arrived yesterday. I let it charge for a couple of hours. I put the old bulb in the pj and turned it on. I let it run for a little bit, and then pulled the plug and the pj kept running, no problem, so this UPS does support the 6500. I took a meter reading and the output dropped from 120V to 117-119V on battery.

BTW the glass centerpiece that hold the filament in the bulb that died so quickly, evidently melted some because it is severely bent compared to the new bulb. These things must get extremely hot to cause the glass to melt.
post #543 of 730
I have an iOne LT on the way and this will be my first attempt at calibration. I have an Epson 8100, Samsung 61" DLP, an Onkyo TXNR1007b, a PS3, Toshiba HDDVD and a HTPC with HDMI. Everything is connected via HDMI and then out to the 2 displays using the dual HDMI outs. My question is this, the Onkyo has an ISF menu for adjusting the individual color brightness and contrast, plus brightness, saturation, etc. How should I calibrate? Do I try to neutralize the Onkyo and then use the Epson (and eventually the Samsung) controls, or use the Onkyo controls? Is anyone else using one of the Onkyo xx07's?
post #544 of 730
thanx knd...

from looking at the greyscale without the offset it does have aslight red push as with your offset its is more grey....

so maybe i should use the one with your offset...

thanx Denis
post #545 of 730
I have been reading this thread for some time dying to calibrate my projector. So the wife got me a eye one lt for Christmas and I spent lots of time working on this. This is what I have so far. Can anyone take a look and offer some recommendations. I am running an Epson 1080 (non UB) with 110" screen and the projector is mounted about 13 feet from the screen. Room is controlled lighting with no windows, ceiling is painted a dark color and wall where the screen is mounted is also a dark color although its not black as the wife was not having that. I appreciate any input, advice, criticism, etc, and thank you all for the time, advice, effort, etc you put into making this tutorial and thread.

Thanks
Ron

 

grayscale_after_2.zip 4.4150390625k . file
post #546 of 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwithers View Post

I have been reading this thread for some time dying to calibrate my projector. So the wife got me a eye one lt for Christmas and I spent lots of time working on this. This is what I have so far. Can anyone take a look and offer some recommendations. I am running an Epson 1080 (non UB) with 110" screen and the projector is mounted about 13 feet from the screen. Room is controlled lighting with no windows, ceiling is painted a dark color and wall where the screen is mounted is also a dark color although its not black as the wife was not having that. I appreciate any input, advice, criticism, etc, and thank you all for the time, advice, effort, etc you put into making this tutorial and thread.

Thanks
Ron

I used this guide when I owned an Epson 1080 non UB. Keep in mind that you can't adjust the secondary colors brightness level with the 1080 non UB. You can adjust saturation and tint only. I would still do a basic gray scale and gamma calibration but becareful adjusting the secondary colors since it lacks the brightness control.
post #547 of 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwithers View Post

I have been reading this thread for some time dying to calibrate my projector. So the wife got me a eye one lt for Christmas and I spent lots of time working on this. This is what I have so far. Can anyone take a look and offer some recommendations. I am running an Epson 1080 (non UB) with 110" screen and the projector is mounted about 13 feet from the screen. Room is controlled lighting with no windows, ceiling is painted a dark color and wall where the screen is mounted is also a dark color although its not black as the wife was not having that. I appreciate any input, advice, criticism, etc, and thank you all for the time, advice, effort, etc you put into making this tutorial and thread.

Thanks
Ron

The results look very good. Do you have gamma adjustments or just a preset (2.4, 2.3, etc)? If you have some gamma adjustments then you could work on the gamma some, but it's pretty good the way it is now.

Have you tried the 75% saturation points yet?
post #548 of 730
This is with custom gamma sliders. What would be your recommendation for making some gamma adjustments...maybe some tweaks at 20, 50 and 90%?

I am not sure if this one was saved before or after I did the 75% saturation's. It may have been before but I did set them up. Maybe I can go through and do another test with what I have currently which is with the 75% saturation points
post #549 of 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by rwithers View Post

This is with custom gamma sliders. What would be your recommendation for making some gamma adjustments...maybe some tweaks at 20, 50 and 90%?

I am not sure if this one was saved before or after I did the 75% saturation's. It may have been before but I did set them up. Maybe I can go through and do another test with what I have currently which is with the 75% saturation points


I would suggest trying to lower gamma at the dark end just a little. Try moving the 2nd from the left up 2 clicks, and the 3rd from the left up 1 click. Rerun gamma and see what you have. I have read that some like a gamma around 2.1 for IRE10. I've tried this and it seems to make the darker scenes have more detail, but it is hard for me to see (and I may be seeing what I want to see).
post #550 of 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post
I hope someone with a 8500UB or 9500UB can measure the full set of 30 color saturation measurements. (after the projector has been calibrated to 100% saturation windows) I'd love to see if Epson has resolved the "desaturation" issue in the lower saturation areas when you calibrate to the standard 100% saturation windows. I see that they received THX certification for these new projectors, so maybe this issue is resolved and my 75% method will be unnecessary. Crossing fingers.
Here's a HCFR file I got from EH-TW5500 (euro 8500UB) with an eye-one display 2. Could someone verify the desaturation issue of the projector from this?

The measurements were taken in natural mode, ECO power, Iris off. I'm novice in calibration but made a some adjustments using the AVCHD disk (saturation, tint, contrast, brightness, RGB gains and offsets). Everything else should be factory defaults.

 

Epson EH-TW5500.zip 1.0087890625k . file
post #551 of 730
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mattilaj View Post

Here's a HCFR file I got from EH-TW5500 (euro 8500UB) with an eye-one display 2. Could someone verify the desaturation issue of the projector from this?

The measurements were taken in natural mode, ECO power, Iris off. I'm novice in calibration but made a some adjustments using the AVCHD disk (saturation, tint, contrast, brightness, RGB gains and offsets). Everything else should be factory defaults.

Thank you very much for providing this information mattilaj,

Yes, it appears that the desaturation issue still exists, although it does not appear to be as bad as my 1080UB. I only did a quick view of your calibration file, and will give a more detailed response later today. Your calibration looks pretty good by the way.

Kind regards,
Dan
post #552 of 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post
Thank you very much for providing this information mattilaj,

Yes, it appears that the desaturation issue still exists, although it does not appear to be as bad as my 1080UB. I only did a quick view of your calibration file, and will give a more detailed response later today. Your calibration looks pretty good by the way.

Kind regards,
Dan
Dan and Mattilaj,

I took Mattilaj's free measures and put them into Dan's spreadsheet, which is attached. The 25%,50%, and 75% points are all undersaturated just as your guide shows, so it appears that this guide will also apply to the 8500 and 9500.

Please let me know if you agree, as I may have messed this up.

Mattilaj, thanks for providing the data.

 

AVS data Mattilaj dE Chart.zip 375.3330078125k . file
post #553 of 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knd View Post

Dan and Mattilaj,

I took Mattilaj's free measures and put them into Dan's spreadsheet, which is attached. The 25%,50%, and 75% points are all undersaturated just as your guide shows, so it appears that this guide will also apply to the 8500 and 9500.

Please let me know if you agree, as I may have messed this up.

Mattilaj, thanks for providing the data.

No, thank you (and Dan) very much for taking a look at the data. I'm going to try Dan's 75% method in the future, but I'm already so pleased with the picture that I'll use the projector for a 100 or so hours before doing that. :-)

- Jussi
post #554 of 730
Please forgive my ignorance on the subject, but I am new to projector calibration & am looking to buy a Eye One Display LT, but I couldn't help but notice there are three to choose from.

Gretagmacbeth, Pantone & X-Rite.



Are these all just rebrandings or is one better than the other?


Thanks,
post #555 of 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega-Prime View Post

Please forgive my ignorance on the subject, but I am new to projector calibration & am looking to buy a Eye One Display LT, but I couldn't help but notice there are three to choose from.

Gretagmacbeth, Pantone & X-Rite.



Are these all just rebrandings or is one better than the other?


Thanks,

all of those are for monitors.
post #556 of 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega-Prime View Post

Please forgive my ignorance on the subject, but I am new to projector calibration & am looking to buy a Eye One Display LT, but I couldn't help but notice there are three to choose from.

Gretagmacbeth, Pantone & X-Rite.



Are these all just rebrandings or is one better than the other?


Thanks,

You can use the Display LT (and I am sure all the others too) for projectors. Check out the CurtPalme.com guide for dummies here: http://www.curtpalme.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=10457(
post #557 of 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carlp336 View Post

all of those are for monitors.

In the very first post of this thread, the OP, (stereomandan), say's & I quote: "Colorometer (I use the Display One LT, but a i1pro is better)"

So I know I can use it for my Epson 6100... The only thing I wanted to know is if there was a difference between the different types. Gretag, Pantone or X-Rite.
post #558 of 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega-Prime View Post

In the very first post of this thread, the OP, (stereomandan), say's & I quote: "Colorometer (I use the Display One LT, but a i1pro is better)"

So I know I can use it for my Epson 6100... The only thing I wanted to know is if there was a difference between the different types. Gretag, Pantone or X-Rite.

I beleive they are all the same, with X-Rite being the manufacturer. Yes, this is the best entry level meter for calibrating. Stereomandan and myself have the LT and we've discovered that it reads too much red. I bought an i1 Pro and have set up an offset for the LT that works well for me and for Stereomandan. But, even with the extra red, the calibration according to this guide is much better looking than using a calibration disk, at least that was my experience.

If you are interested start reading here:http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post17419721
post #559 of 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mega-Prime View Post

In the very first post of this thread, the OP, (stereomandan), say's & I quote: "Colorometer (I use the Display One LT, but a i1pro is better)"

So I know I can use it for my Epson 6100... The only thing I wanted to know is if there was a difference between the different types. Gretag, Pantone or X-Rite.

ok, but doesnt change the fact they are display (LCD, CRT and laptop monitors) calibrators.
i suggest as well as x-rite you use i1XTreme

to answer your question x-rite makes all three
post #560 of 730
Thread Starter 
Yes, my meter is the x-rite Display One LT.

Dan
post #561 of 730
I find using the custom sliders to get the target 2.22 Gamma results in an image that is too dark for me.

I use the preset 2.3 setting which probably results in a gamma of like 2.1 when i do a reading. ugh

Should I enter 2.1 for gamma in the spreadsheet when adjusting the colors?
post #562 of 730
I performed a touchup calibration on my relatively new lamp (160 hours), just gray scale and gamma. I then turned on the dynamic iris and took a new set of gray scale and gamma readings. The gamma was, of course, quite varied but around 2.55 at 50 IRE and below.

I then tried my hand at adjusting the gray scale and gamma with the iris on, as I watch everything with this on. What's interesting is that for some reason, I also needed to adjust the gray scale quite a bit particularly at the low end (too much red with the iris on).

Anyway attached is the file. I'm going to watch this for a while and see what I think. So far I like dark scenes better, although I may want a higher gamma than 2.25 below 50 IRE.

As you can see the upper end of the gamma is pretty wild, and I couldn't do any better on this with the iris on. Maybe if I pulled down my overall contrast a lot I could have then adjusted 70 - 90 better, but I'm going to watch this for a while and see what I think.

Let me know what you think of this approach. The guide says to turn this off when calibrating, but I wanted to see what I could do. BTW i used full fields for this calibration, as I didn't want the windows to affect the performance of the iris.

 

LT offset low 160 hrs iris on.zip 4.5771484375k . file
post #563 of 730
I finally finished my 8500ub calibration. Thanks to everyone out there Dan, Dad, etc. for all the helpful information - without you I would have been absolutely clueless with this process!! My old panny pj simply didn't have the flexibility that this pj has and it's really remarkable how enjoyable (and at times frustrating) this process has been. I'd like some criticism on my calibration file attached. Any way that I can make this better I'm game for. A few notes about calibrating the 8500 vs maybe the 6100, 6500, etc.

Gamma - I had the same difficulties with gamma that it folks had with the previous units. When I ran through the visual contrast adjustments prior to calibrating, I set my contrast to a +6; but I was simply unable to get gamma to correctly adjust with contrast that is this high. I ended up with -6 for contrast. At first, this was a dark picture to me, but after the unit's been fully calibrated with the 75% saturations used, this is no longer the case...

The 75% saturations seem to be more in line than what I had seen previously, but the issue is still there and using the 75% calibration is still a great way to go about calibrating this pj from my perspective.

No matter WHAT I DID - i couldn't lower the contrast enough so that my 90% and 100% readings were correct. It looks like either my eyeOne can't read the luminance properly at these levels or something else is off, but no matter what I did i couldn't solve this problem. It doesn't seem to be affecting the picture quality, which I'm very pleased with at this point.

Anyway - thanks again guys for your information - it's been a fun ride! Now I might actually watch some movies for a change!

 

Color-after.zip 4.451171875k . file
post #564 of 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by tekbud View Post

I finally finished my 8500ub calibration. Thanks to everyone out there Dan, Dad, etc. for all the helpful information - without you I would have been absolutely clueless with this process!! My old panny pj simply didn't have the flexibility that this pj has and it's really remarkable how enjoyable (and at times frustrating) this process has been. I'd like some criticism on my calibration file attached. Any way that I can make this better I'm game for. A few notes about calibrating the 8500 vs maybe the 6100, 6500, etc.

Gamma - I had the same difficulties with gamma that it folks had with the previous units. When I ran through the visual contrast adjustments prior to calibrating, I set my contrast to a +6; but I was simply unable to get gamma to correctly adjust with contrast that is this high. I ended up with -6 for contrast. At first, this was a dark picture to me, but after the unit's been fully calibrated with the 75% saturations used, this is no longer the case...

The 75% saturations seem to be more in line than what I had seen previously, but the issue is still there and using the 75% calibration is still a great way to go about calibrating this pj from my perspective.

No matter WHAT I DID - i couldn't lower the contrast enough so that my 90% and 100% readings were correct. It looks like either my eyeOne can't read the luminance properly at these levels or something else is off, but no matter what I did i couldn't solve this problem. It doesn't seem to be affecting the picture quality, which I'm very pleased with at this point.

Anyway - thanks again guys for your information - it's been a fun ride! Now I might actually watch some movies for a change!

It looks very good, and it looks like Epson has done a better job with the colors, as the 100% saturations are not nearly as far off as they are with my 6500.

A couple of questions:
1) What mode is this calibration of? (I'm guessing Natural)
2) For gamma, did you use the sliders or a preset? Your 90 IRE is very low, but the rest looks very good.

BTW my contrast is at -12 for my latest dynamic calibration (low lamp) so you can see how much I had to pull it down to get my high end gamma to behave.
post #565 of 730
I got a new bulb (again, BTW Epson service is very, very good, replacement was recevied 2 days after call).

I did a gray scale and gamma calibration on this bulb first with the iris turned off (as per the guide). I then turned it on and reran the gray scale and gamma, and then did a calibration as best I could with the iris on.

The average gamma jumps up to over 2.5, and at the low end it approaches 2.6 when you turn on the iris.

I've watched it for a few hours using the iris on calibration, and I think I like the picture better. What do you all think about this?

Attached are the 3 files.

 

Calibration low lamp dynamic.zip 13.4365234375k . file
post #566 of 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by Knd View Post

It looks very good, and it looks like Epson has done a better job with the colors, as the 100% saturations are not nearly as far off as they are with my 6500.

A couple of questions:
1) What mode is this calibration of? (I'm guessing Natural)
2) For gamma, did you use the sliders or a preset? Your 90 IRE is very low, but the rest looks very good.

BTW my contrast is at -12 for my latest dynamic calibration (low lamp) so you can see how much I had to pull it down to get my high end gamma to behave.

Thanks - not bad for a first timer I guess? Funny I really enjoyed the whole process more than I expected, I guess the geek in me really took over. These measurements were taken in THX Normal mode. Also, no matter what I did I couldn't get the 90 measurements down. At one point I lowered the contrast to -22 or something rediculous, and still got the same results. All I can figure is that my eyeOne has problems at 90??? Oh, and I used the sliders to get my gamma correct. It took some time though, as it seemed my Y value continually dropped and I would get everything in line, then run a grayscale calibration and poof, it was out of line again because Y was different than when I started. Very strange.
post #567 of 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by tekbud View Post

Thanks - not bad for a first timer I guess? Funny I really enjoyed the whole process more than I expected, I guess the geek in me really took over. These measurements were taken in THX Normal mode. Also, no matter what I did I couldn't get the 90 measurements down. At one point I lowered the contrast to -22 or something rediculous, and still got the same results. All I can figure is that my eyeOne has problems at 90??? Oh, and I used the sliders to get my gamma correct. It took some time though, as it seemed my Y value continually dropped and I would get everything in line, then run a grayscale calibration and poof, it was out of line again because Y was different than when I started. Very strange.

With my 6500, I have to pull the 2nd from the right slider down almost all the way to get 90 IRE to behave. Pull it down to about -28 and see what that does, if you haven't already tried this.
post #568 of 730
Yep I've tried all the way down to -32 - still no dice...
post #569 of 730
Thread Starter 
Knd,

I don't recommend calibrating with the iris on. I've done it myself (by accident), and the results were immediately noticable as incorrect.

I've thought it through, but it is very difficult to explain the reasons why calibrating with the iris on is incorrect without typing up a "War and Peace" sized post.

Suffice it to say, the iris theoretically should have very little influence on gamma within any particular scene. (intra scene gamma) Let's say you have a scene with mixed brightness content, with some 100% gray areas, some 50% gray areas, and some 0% gray areas (black). The 100% gray areas measure 10 ftL, the 50% gray areas measure 2.15 ftL, and the black areas measure 0.02 ftL for instance, with the iris off. This assumes you calibrated with the iris off, and had a 2.22 gamma. (except for 0% gray, which is impossible without the lamp shutting off). Now, imagine that this particular scene has very little of the 100% grey and 50% gray areas in the scene. If you turn on the iris, it clamps down, and now the 100% gray area may read 5 ftL, the 50% gray area reads 1.07 ftL, and the 0% gray is now 0.01 ftL. This intra scene gamma is still 2.22 gamma, just as the iris is intended to do, but the overall brightness is lower which makes the blacks more black. This is the intended function of the iris, to make the blacks darker in a dark scene. (the penalty is that the whites also get darker, but this is the drawback of an iris. It's inherent to it's design)

Now, when you try to calibrate the projector with the iris on, you end up sending the projector gray patterns in 10% steps. The problem is that these patterns are a specific size and brightness within the scene, and the Epson will clamp down the iris depending on how bright the scene is, and how much of the bright content there is. Full screen patterns don't help the situation either because those patterns are also a certain size. (full screen)

The sliders on the Epson are designed to adjust the gamma within a scene, even though we use multiple calibration images to accomplish this. It is the only way we can accomplish what we need.

Once the sliders are set correctly with the iris off, the intra scene gamma should always be 2.22, no matter what the scene characteristics are. When you turn the iris back on, the intra scene gamma will stay at 2.22 as described in the second pragraph even though the iris may be opening or closing. Remember, gamma is always a funtion of what 100% gray is within a particular scene

If you turn on the iris, and calibrate using multiple windows or full screen patterns for gamma, the iris is opening and closing from pattern to pattern based on how much bright content is in the scene. This will cause incorrect intra scene gamma depending on how much bright content is in a scene.

This is probably confusing as mud, but it's very hard to describe in writing.

Dan
post #570 of 730
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

Knd,

I don't recommend calibrating with the iris on. I've done it myself (by accident), and the results were immediately noticable as incorrect.

I've thought it through, but it is very difficult to explain the reasons why calibrating with the iris on is incorrect without typing up a "War and Peace" sized post.

Suffice it to say, the iris theoretically should have very little influence on gamma within any particular scene. (intra scene gamma) Let's say you have a scene with mixed brightness content, with some 100% gray areas, some 50% gray areas, and some 0% gray areas (black). The 100% gray areas measure 10 ftL, the 50% gray areas measure 2.15 ftL, and the black areas measure 0.02 ftL for instance, with the iris off. This assumes you calibrated with the iris off, and had a 2.22 gamma. (except for 0% gray, which is impossible without the lamp shutting off). Now, imagine that this particular scene has very little of the 100% grey and 50% gray areas in the scene. If you turn on the iris, it clamps down, and now the 100% gray area may read 5 ftL, the 50% gray area reads 1.07 ftL, and the 0% gray is now 0.01 ftL. This intra scene gamma is still 2.22 gamma, just as the iris is intended to do, but the overall brightness is lower which makes the blacks more black. This is the intended function of the iris, to make the blacks darker in a dark scene. (the penalty is that the whites also get darker, but this is the drawback of an iris. It's inherent to it's design)

Now, when you try to calibrate the projector with the iris on, you end up sending the projector gray patterns in 10% steps. The problem is that these patterns are a specific size and brightness within the scene, and the Epson will clamp down the iris depending on how bright the scene is, and how much of the bright content there is. Full screen patterns don't help the situation either because those patterns are also a certain size. (full screen)

The sliders on the Epson are designed to adjust the gamma within a scene, even though we use multiple calibration images to accomplish this. It is the only way we can accomplish what we need.

Once the sliders are set correctly with the iris off, the intra scene gamma should always be 2.22, no matter what the scene characteristics are. When you turn the iris back on, the intra scene gamma will stay at 2.22 as described in the second pragraph even though the iris may be opening or closing. Remember, gamma is always a funtion of what 100% gray is within a particular scene

If you turn on the iris, and calibrate using multiple windows or full screen patterns for gamma, the iris is opening and closing from pattern to pattern based on how much bright content is in the scene. This will cause incorrect intra scene gamma depending on how much bright content is in a scene.

This is probably confusing as mud, but it's very hard to describe in writing.

Dan

Thanks Dan for putting so much thought into this, and for writing this difficult topic up. It make sense to me now. I was assuming that full screne gray patterns with the iris on, would behave the same as mixed scenes (of real content), and you've explained the difference very well.
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