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Epson Calibration Guide! (1080, 1080UB, 6100, 6500UB, 7500UB) - Page 3

post #61 of 718
4/7/09 at 4:58am
Thread Starter 
Honestly, I haven't used Bill's tab in my spreadsheet. I have always aimed for 2.22 gamma. I'll check it out.

One thing I've noticed about dynamic mode is that I need to REALLY crank down the contrast in order to get anything close to nice greyscale tracking. Red is the issue. It gets way overdriven in dynamic mode and contrast needs to be reduced significantly to compensate. Otherwise gains and offsets can't be set properly. In natural mode, I'm at +7 contrast, and in Dynamic I'm at -16. There is still twice the light output of Natural mode though, and the ONLY color with problems is green. Keep in mind that I use a PS3 that passes blacker than black and whiter than white. That is why my contrast is normally so high at +7 in natural mode.

Here are my initial main menu settings for dynamic mode:
Brightness: -9
Contrast: -16
Color: 0
Tint: 10

If I can, I'll post the RGB and RBGCMY results tonight also.

Dan
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post #62 of 718
4/7/09 at 5:16am
Thank you very much for this thread. Calibration doesn't seem like such a high mountain to climb now.
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post #63 of 718
4/7/09 at 3:12pm
Dan,

I posted this question regarding Gamma and "Dynamic" mode on the HCFR Calibrator's forum:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...3#post16217613

My guess is that because this mode does not employ "Cinema Filter" that the best one could hope for is a good visual calibration utilizing some regular calibration to get close; as it is normally used for a room with some daylight to view mostly TV, sports, etc.

Thank you
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post #64 of 718
4/7/09 at 4:20pm
Thread Starter 
smallpooldad,

It looks like Bill's calculations work as advertised. It's a nice way to know where the AVSHD saturation points line up if you want to calibrate to another gamma. You may want to download the latest file (I updated it). I entered the reference red, green, blue, and white points into his tab so that it spits out the correct saturaiton locations.

Regarding dynamic mode, I'm surprised how well it turned out in my calibration to be honest. Green is definately the problem, but the problem is pretty much limited to green. Green at 100% saturation is more skewed towards lime, and green is undersaturated, but the other colors perform pretty much as good as natural mode. I'll be using Dynamic more than I originally thought. I bet most people who see my calibration of this mode would be surprised.(in a good way) I'll post up my calibration results when I get a chance. My natural mode results are already the default values in my spreadsheet. (low lamp, natural mode, no iris)

Dan
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post #65 of 718
4/7/09 at 4:42pm
Hi Dan ,

Can you confirm which version of your Spreadsheet is the most current ? I downloaded an April dated version but it was smaller than a previous version I had . Probably small changes and improvements but I'm not so sure .

Thanks again for this effort .

Scott................
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post #66 of 718
4/7/09 at 6:10pm
Thank you for the reply. Downloaded your new spreadsheet. On Page 1, saw your new entry

Code:
HCFR Specific (75% saturation locations)                        
%  (Bars to the left of the cd/m2 and ftL reading)



on the "Calibration Aid" page, neat.

As you stated it points to his page "Ref Points Adj for Gamma", I am assuming we do not need to copy and paste is this correct?

And is his Gamma number pointing to your Gamma number so that it automatically updates, otherwise it would by out of sync?

If so you might want to correct his paragraph. Could you let me know the answer to this so that I may update the "Check List" to the correct information.

"This worksheet calculates the reference xyY targets (below in red) for each level of each saturated color, assuming the primary colors as the defined RGB points of the color gamut. These new points can be copied and pasted over the "Saturation Values (Cells H2:M31 in the Input Data Worksheet). Then all of the charts will use these values as the reference points."

I have not run it at a different Gamma but if I do would it change these percentages?

Code:
HCFR Specific (75% saturation locations)                        
%  (Bars to the left of the cd/m2 and ftL reading)                      
        Red Bar Green Bar       Blue Bar
Red     378%    24%     24%
Green   15%     133%    15%
Blue    64%     64%     555%
Yellow  106%    106%    17%
Cyan    24%     120%    120%
Magenta 247%    41%     247%
Thank you, as always, for working on this.
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post #67 of 718
4/7/09 at 6:38pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scott_R_K View Post

Hi Dan ,

Can you confirm which version of your Spreadsheet is the most current ? I downloaded an April dated version but it was smaller than a previous version I had . Probably small changes and improvements but I'm not so sure .

Thanks again for this effort .

Scott................

I just updated it today, but only one of the last tabs that have Bill Mitchell's calculations in there if you are using a different gamma. I just updated the reference locations for 100% saturation colors. I also updated it a few days ago to include the % method on the calibration aid page.

Dan

Quote:
Originally Posted by smallpooldad View Post

Thank you for the reply. Downloaded your new spreadsheet. On Page 1, saw your new entry

Code:
HCFR Specific (75% saturation locations)                        
%  (Bars to the left of the cd/m2 and ftL reading)



on the "Calibration Aid" page, neat.

As you stated it points to his page "Ref Points Adj for Gamma", I am assuming we do not need to copy and paste is this correct?

And is his Gamma number pointing to your Gamma number so that it automatically updates, otherwise it would by out of sync?

If so you might want to correct his paragraph. Could you let me know the answer to this so that I may update the "Check List" to the correct information.

"This worksheet calculates the reference xyY targets (below in red) for each level of each saturated color, assuming the primary colors as the defined RGB points of the color gamut. These new points can be copied and pasted over the "Saturation Values (Cells H2:M31 in the Input Data Worksheet). Then all of the charts will use these values as the reference points."

I have not run it at a different Gamma but if I do would it change these percentages?

Code:
HCFR Specific (75% saturation locations)                        
%  (Bars to the left of the cd/m2 and ftL reading)                      
        Red Bar Green Bar       Blue Bar
Red     378%    24%     24%
Green   15%     133%    15%
Blue    64%     64%     555%
Yellow  106%    106%    17%
Cyan    24%     120%    120%
Magenta 247%    41%     247%
Thank you, as always, for working on this.

No, the references are specific to his page I think. It's totally independent of my tabs. I'll integrate it as you suggest so there is no guesswork. Good suggestion. I'll send out a note once it's updated.

Oh, and glad to help. All of this has been as much fun and help for me as anyone else.

Dan
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post #68 of 718
4/7/09 at 6:40pm
Dan,

Now for a really big wish.

"Oh, "Great Excel Programming Zen Master, Prince of Calibrators, Master of All That Is Wise in Red, Green, and Blue, etc.""

Dan, your new title by the way.

Would it be possible to create a spreadsheet that allows one to enter the target numbers for xyY for each color in the RGBCMY area, then enter the effects of moving each setting by points such as +1, or -1 to Gamut, Saturation, and Brightness, and have this calculate the closest optimum settings?

For example, the spreadsheet would then state that the Red calculation should be -3, +4, and +2.

As every PJ, depending on distance, original setting, and model type, would yield different affects by moving the controls the numbers for variance would have to be entered separately and manually, I believe.

I think the baseline number to work off would be the "0" setting, using the 75% readings from the 75% color saturation window.

I am fairly sure it is possible but it would require a master programmer with a good understanding of math. I am definitely not your man, but you or someone else might be.

If you can do this I will change my shower song from "Deutschland Deutschland über alles" to "Dan Dan über alles".

Thank you.

Late Edit: Thank you for the response; I will look forward to the update of the updated spreadsheet.
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post #69 of 718
4/7/09 at 7:27pm
Does anyone have any BEFORE and AFTER photos?
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post #70 of 718
4/7/09 at 8:57pm
Ph0n33z,

I know what an "AFTER" picture can look like, but when you refer to "BEFORE" I am not sure what you mean. By this are you referring to the standard Epson calibration for "Natural" mode or a typical "Dummies" calibration?

I might be able to supply these pictures, probably not until next week, if I know what you are looking for. That is if I can figure out how to operate my camera correctly.

Please advise.

Thank you.
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post #71 of 718
4/8/09 at 3:06am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph0n33z View Post

Does anyone have any BEFORE and AFTER photos?

We can always supply before and after, but as smallpooldad said, what is the "before", and also in what type of scenario. Dark scene, light scene?

My experience after a 75% cal is that the picture looks better overall, with better dark details and more natural colors when watching a movie (than a 100% sat. cal)

I'm a happy camper now at least. And hopefully I will find time to calibrate for other modes over the easter holiday. Weather forecast is good, i.e. rainy
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post #72 of 718
4/8/09 at 5:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

smallpooldad,

It looks like Bill's calculations work as advertised. It's a nice way to know where the AVSHD saturation points line up if you want to calibrate to another gamma. You may want to download the latest file (I updated it). I entered the reference red, green, blue, and white points into his tab so that it spits out the correct saturaiton locations.

Regarding dynamic mode, I'm surprised how well it turned out in my calibration to be honest. Green is definately the problem, but the problem is pretty much limited to green. Green at 100% saturation is more skewed towards lime, and green is undersaturated, but the other colors perform pretty much as good as natural mode. I'll be using Dynamic more than I originally thought. I bet most people who see my calibration of this mode would be surprised.(in a good way) I'll post up my calibration results when I get a chance. My natural mode results are already the default values in my spreadsheet. (low lamp, natural mode, no iris)

Dan

I, too, am very surprised how dynamic looks. My contrast isdown about -15, but (with my eye one) Iwas able to get very decent greyscale tracking. Your right about green. It was really hard to saturate it properly, and even then the hue was WAY of, I has to pump so much cyan into it to try to bring it closer to the point in cms (using 75% saturations - thank you very much )

But, a HECK of a lot easier to watch than on my previous Epson HC400 in dynamic. I went from 13.8 ftl to 25 or 27 (can't remeber excact number).

This brings to a point that nags me just a tad. When people say a projector can produce, just for the sake of example, 800 lumens AT 6500K. Well, 6500K is a great starting point for the greyscale, but this is proof right here that you can have very accurate greyscale, but one or more colors can be completely OFF. i.e.- and inaccurate display (at 6500K). I've heard people use the phrase (when the projector is in it's 'best' mode), which is sometimes weird, but I understand more what means-it's the best it can do-probably pretty accurate if it's a decent and respectible display. Not, hey, wow, it does just fine at 987 lumens, because that's ALSO D6500!!! Yeah, it's perfect! Well, there's a chance that the 987 lumen d6500 projector can look like hell. Just sayin.
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post #73 of 718
4/8/09 at 1:26pm
cbaseuser and stereomandan,

I believe that "Cinema Filter" does not work in "Living Room - Cinema Day" and "Dynamic - Vivid" modes. What exactly it does I am not sure but it seems that it does introduce a filter to optimize green.

Does anyone have any idea what this "Cinema Filter" does and why Epson does not use it the above two modes?

Did find this here:

http://www.avmall.com/Epson_Pro_Cine...nema%20800.htm

"New Epson Cinema Filter

Filters red, blue, and green light and cuts the light of unwanted wavelengths. This expands color space and provides high-purity color resulting in excellent intensity and better contrast in dark scenes interface for the best HD images available."


Kind of general though.

Thank you.
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post #74 of 718
4/8/09 at 1:29pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ph0n33z View Post
Does anyone have any BEFORE and AFTER photos?
I might try to get some soon. 1) Out of the box performance 2) 100% method (Natural or TB1 mode) 3) 75% method (Natural Mode) 4) 75% method (Dynamic mode)

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbaseuser View Post
I, too, am very surprised how dynamic looks. My contrast isdown about -15, but (with my eye one) Iwas able to get very decent greyscale tracking. Your right about green. It was really hard to saturate it properly, and even then the hue was WAY of, I has to pump so much cyan into it to try to bring it closer to the point in cms (using 75% saturations - thank you very much )

But, a HECK of a lot easier to watch than on my previous Epson HC400 in dynamic. I went from 13.8 ftl to 25 or 27 (can't remeber excact number).
Yes, in dynamic green looks like a corkscrew on the color gamut chart. To be honest though, the greens don't look as bad as I thought they would. Trees, grass and other greens still look natural. I think it's because greens don't start looking lime until you hit 100% saturated greens(which only occurs sometimes) Yeah, my green saturation is maxed at 64, and my hue is all the way towards cyan(I think) as well to try to get a decent green at 75%. 75% saturated green has good hue, but 25% and 50% are too cyan, and 100% has too much yellow. For some reason my cyan at 100% saturation is very undersaturated, but the other saturations are fine. All other colors are great for hue and saturation. Here is my HCFR file fro dynamic.

Even with contrast bumped down to -16 I still have problems with red(as you can see in the greyscale tracking) My red gain is maxed out, and my offset is pretty extreme as well to try to flatten out red. It's not too bad though, and not very noticeable. The only big negative I've noticed with dynamic is that some fleshtones appear a little too yellow. People with pale skin look fine, but those with a tan look too yellow. Might jsut be the movie I was watching last night though (Ghostown)

Oh, and I agree with you about the lumens rating. There is no way to have a good standard method to make claims.

Dan

 

4-6-09 75% Saturation, dynamic .zip 4.5400390625k . file
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post #75 of 718
4/8/09 at 1:37pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by smallpooldad View Post

cbaseuser and stereomandan,

I believe that "Cinema Filter" does not work in "Living Room - Cinema Day" and "Dynamic - Vivid" modes. What exactly it does I am not sure but it seems that it does not introduce a filter to optimize green.

Does anyone have any idea what this "Cinema Filter" does and why Epson does not use it the above two modes?

Did find this here:

http://www.avmall.com/Epson_Pro_Cine...nema%20800.htm

"New Epson Cinema Filter

Filters red, blue, and green light and cuts the light of unwanted wavelengths. This expands color space and provides high-purity color resulting in excellent intensity and better contrast in dark scenes interface for the best HD images available."


Kind of general though.

Thank you.

It filters green primarily. It brings the hue better in line. It takes a big toll on light output though. I can get all the other colors to look fine except green in living room, and dynamic modes. Using the 75% method you can eliminate a lot of the problems with green though, since you can at least tune some of the green saturation area to be good.

I can get excellent gamma and shadow detail in dynamic mode (see my HCFR file in my previous post). Greyscale tracking suffers a little though.

Dan
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post #76 of 718
4/8/09 at 2:31pm
Dan,

It is good to know at least one can get some kind of reasonable picture in ambient light.

Thank you.
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post #77 of 718
4/8/09 at 2:36pm
Sorry about the confusion. I was looking to see a comparison between Out of the Box PQ and either 100% or 75% in the same mode. (Otherwise the comparison wouldn't be very accurate, no?) In other words, I am interested in seeing what kind of difference there is after calibration compared to how it arrives from the factory. I hope that makes more sense!
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post #78 of 718
4/8/09 at 3:37pm
Hi Dan ,

One more question as I try and wrap my head around all this some more ...the "100% Gray Scale" Pattern is RGB at 0% Saturation and 100% Stimulus (Y) ? Yes , no , maybe ?

Scott.....................
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post #79 of 718
4/8/09 at 3:54pm
Thread Starter 
Yes, the 100% greyscale is at 0% saturation, 100% stimulus.

The confusing part is that you need equal parts red, green and blue to get white. So yes, it is 0% saturation, but you still need to use red, green and blue to get there. I know. Confusing.

Dan
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post #80 of 718
4/8/09 at 5:34pm
Dan,

Not pushing but did you do the pointer/link stuff to Bill's page in the spreadsheet and update your first post?

And any thoughts on my post #68, like possible, possible but would take a lot of programming, possible but we need an experienced programmer, impossible, or what were you drinking/smoking when you wrote this.

Might have time later tonight to calibrate. Will post the results when done.

Thank you.
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post #81 of 718
4/9/09 at 7:30am
So, I think we all agree that most of the problems in the epson's color are between 75% saturation and 100% saturation.

Here's my question:

Is there a set of 100% saturation (as well as being 100% brightness of course) .jpg files that we could manually make, lets say, 80%, or even 85% saturation color fields? They would obviously need to be "known good" color field/files, so we can be confident about this method. Maybe use something like photoshop to do this. (You could take red for example, do a 75% saturation effect on it, and check it against the real one, see if you get the same readings for a test) Then stick it on a flash card and use the ps3 to view them.

Then we could use the RGB percentage method mentioned recently to get "correct" x,y values for these new percentages, whatever the user chooses. Brightness (Y) of each color should still be the same percentages like usual, right?

This method would give another mid-point opportunity somewhere between 75 and 100% saturation to kind of average out this problem area. I realize that the entire 100-0% sat. trail toward center/white would skew, but it may help overall the more saturated colors (those greater than 75%)

hope this makes sense
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post #82 of 718
4/9/09 at 9:47am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by smallpooldad View Post

Dan,

Not pushing but did you do the pointer/link stuff to Bill's page in the spreadsheet and update your first post?

And any thoughts on my post #68, like possible, possible but would take a lot of programming, possible but we need an experienced programmer, impossible, or what were you drinking/smoking when you wrote this.

Might have time later tonight to calibrate. Will post the results when done.

Thank you.

I haven't linked Bills stuff, but I'll work on it today. Hopefully I'll have something by tonight.

Regarding post #68, sorry but I think that is next to impossible. At least, I don't have the time to try and figure it out. I'm not sure if the adjustments would be the same between the different Epson projectors. It would be a nice tool, but dang near impossible I'm afraid.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cbaseuser View Post

So, I think we all agree that most of the problems in the epson's color are between 75% saturation and 100% saturation.

Here's my question:

Is there a set of 100% saturation (as well as being 100% brightness of course) .jpg files that we could manually make, lets say, 80%, or even 85% saturation color fields? They would obviously need to be "known good" color field/files, so we can be confident about this method. Maybe use something like photoshop to do this. (You could take red for example, do a 75% saturation effect on it, and check it against the real one, see if you get the same readings for a test) Then stick it on a flash card and use the ps3 to view them.

Then we could use the RGB percentage method mentioned recently to get "correct" x,y values for these new percentages, whatever the user chooses. Brightness (Y) of each color should still be the same percentages like usual, right?

This method would give another mid-point opportunity somewhere between 75 and 100% saturation to kind of average out this problem area. I realize that the entire 100-0% sat. trail toward center/white would skew, but it may help overall the more saturated colors (those greater than 75%)

hope this makes sense

Very, very good idea! I don't know how to author an image like that though. I would love to see 85% saturation windows (assuming 2.22 gamma)for instance and see if we push the accurate gamut area at least out a little further towards 100%. I think Tom Huffman would know what RGB values would be needed for the images.

We had quite a bit of discussion about the AVSHD saturation locations. He ended up proving that they are correct, and he went through the calculations to prove it. He knows how the saturation windows were authored, and could maybe help.

Dan
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post #83 of 718
4/9/09 at 1:04pm
Dan,

Thank you for the reply, will wait for your update.

As I had not calibrated since you came up with the balancing percentage method I did not realize how fast and well it works. The addition of another Excel balancing sheet is therefore, as you already know, not really needed.

Calibrated last night, not my best calibration but the problem has more to do with my initial too high ftL for contrast and brightness settings. The hue, saturation, and luminance were great when I used your percentage balance method, very easy to get right, came in very tight, a first for me. Still had the usual weird custom Gamma settings but for the most part they came in ok, at mostly 2.22.

I am beginning to think I have my Epson 6100 too close in at 11'9", and may have to use Theater Black 1, until the bulb ages some (about 190 hours on it now).

Have a good day.
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post #84 of 718
4/9/09 at 1:11pm
cbaseuser,

Great idea, you may wish to PM alluringreality to see if he could put it together for download as an ISO file so we could burn a separate disk, and maybe later add it the original 709 disk.

Thank you.
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post #85 of 718
4/9/09 at 1:11pm
I finished calibrating Natural and Dynamic....


I like Natural better obviously....but i think i got dynamic close enough to enjoy television and video games with it!

I'm measuring Y = 125.31 in dynamic.


LOL!!!!!


This is a new bulb, and short throw (9ft)


Thanks Dan and smallpool for your awesome work! Extremely helpful!!!


I'll keep 6500ub users updated on FI firmware. Should be released soon.
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post #86 of 718
4/9/09 at 3:08pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by smallpooldad View Post

Dan,

Thank you for the reply, will wait for your update.

As I had not calibrated since you came up with the balancing percentage method I did not realize how fast and well it works. The addition of another Excel balancing sheet is therefore, as you already know, not really needed.

Calibrated last night, not my best calibration but the problem has more to do with my initial too high ftL for contrast and brightness settings. The hue, saturation, and luminance were great when I used your percentage balance method, very easy to get right, came in very tight, a first for me. Still had the usual weird custom Gamma settings but for the most part they came in ok, at mostly 2.22.

I am beginning to think I have my Epson 6100 too close in at 11'9", and may have to use Theater Black 1, until the bulb ages some (about 190 hours on it now).

Have a good day.

Sounds good. I took a look at Bill's sheet again, and came to the conclusion that it will be a headache to integrate it. I think the best bet is to just use his sheet if your gamma isn't 2.22. Enter your average gamma into Bills sheet, then copy and paste his red reference points over mine in the "Input Data" sheet.

Quote:
Originally Posted by smallpooldad View Post

cbaseuser,

Great idea, you may wish to PM alluringreality to see if he could put it together for download as an ISO file so we could burn a separate disk, and maybe later add it the original 709 disk.

Thank you.

Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ethenolas View Post

I finished calibrating Natural and Dynamic....


I like Natural better obviously....but i think i got dynamic close enough to enjoy television and video games with it!

I'm measuring Y = 125.31 in dynamic.


LOL!!!!!


This is a new bulb, and short throw (9ft)


Thanks Dan and smallpool for your awesome work! Extremely helpful!!!


I'll keep 6500ub users updated on FI firmware. Should be released soon.


Y of 125!!!! Your eyeballs must be searing! What screen are you using? You needed a new bulb already?

Dan
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post #87 of 718
4/9/09 at 3:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by stereomandan View Post

Sounds good. I took a look at Bill's sheet again, and came to the conclusion that it will be a headache to integrate it. I think the best bet is to just use his sheet if your gamma isn't 2.22. Enter your average gamma into Bills sheet, then copy and paste his red reference points over mine in the "Input Data" sheet.



Agreed.




Y of 125!!!! Your eyeballs must be searing! What screen are you using? You needed a new bulb already?

Dan


I'm just using a wall... lol flat paint...maybe eggshell


No its just basically new. I bought the 6500ub used from a guy with 10 hours on the bulb for $1050 shipped and sold my 1080ub... lol

lucked out i guess....
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post #88 of 718
4/9/09 at 3:17pm
Thread Starter 
You got a steal!

Dan
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post #89 of 718
4/9/09 at 6:09pm
Thread Starter 
They say a picture is worth a thousand words...

EDIT: Moved comparison photos to first page to keep everything organized...

Dan
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post #90 of 718
4/9/09 at 7:17pm
Wow..great comparison Dan. While the before pic's aren't horrible, the post calibration are so much better. The thing is, you don't know what you are missing until you see a comparison. You are no doubt pleased with the results. As a long time audiophile it's nice to be able to make these types of comparisons after changes have been made and look at it objectively, rather than having to rely on subjective musical memory, placebo affect, etc!

I'll be doing my first calibration in a week or so and your guide will be invaluable.

Jim
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