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Official 2008 Samsung HL61A750/HL67A750 LED DLP Settings and Calibration Thread - Page 9

post #241 of 557
Once I enter all those numbers into the service menu do I then use DVE or similar to adjust color with blue only mode in my user menu?

I only ask because when I look at color through blue only mode (CCA turned off) I need to adjust color up to 49 to make all boxes match. Tint is still 50/50.

Does this effect anything or should I leave it at 45?

And I assume that your +2 white balance setting is again 0 correct?

Thanks
post #242 of 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbfreddy View Post

Once I enter all those numbers into the service menu do I then use DVE or similar to adjust color with blue only mode in my user menu?

I only ask because when I look at color through blue only mode (CCA turned off) I need to adjust color up to 49 to make all boxes match. Tint is still 50/50.

Does this effect anything or should I leave it at 45?

And I assume that your +2 white balance setting is again 0 correct?

Thanks

No, I do not use the filters or blue only mode. Leave it at 45. White Balance at 0 now with these settings.
post #243 of 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrcorwin View Post

Yes, the white balance change really seems to have improved the look of the hockey (or hackey, as my Canadian friends would say) games in particular.

All this talk about adjusting White Balance... didn't the CNet reviewer warn to stay away from this setting? Keep in mind all Lee and Varus (who's disappeared for some reason) hard work is to try and target the D65 white point, once you change white balance from 0 to + or - you throw that off slightly. [Correct me if I'm wrong Lee]

Another note, it's quite apparent that while camera crew and broadcasters are suppose to adhere to D65 they are all slightly different. I'm not huge into Hockey, but watching NBA games I can see vast different in ESPN, TNT and local station's depending on venue and broadcaster. ESPN, CNN, Weather Channel HD, HDNet, HBO HD almost all content broadcast looks great and life-like with Varus setting. TNT HD NBA games not so much... Nat Geo HD and Food Network HD it's hit and miss.

Pretty obvious the broadcasters are causing this annoyance and standards aren't respected (some of the aforementioned content does look better with Standard mode, but I refuse to use it out of spite for the broadcast... which might come as a surprise to some of you. Regardless of what I may think of a standard, it would be nice if we had some uniform behavior from broadcasters and it's easy to see that isn't the case... very easy to see with sports)
post #244 of 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmz76 View Post

All this talk about adjusting White Balance... didn't the CNet reviewer warn to stay away from this setting? Keep in mind all Lee and Varus (who's disappeared for some reason) hard work is to try and target the D65 white point, once you change white balance from 0 to + or - you throw that off slightly. [Correct me if I'm wrong Lee]

Another note, it's quite apparent that while camera crew and broadcasters are suppose to adhere to D65 they are all slightly different. I'm not huge into Hockey, but watching NBA games I can see vast different in ESPN, TNT and local station's depending on venue and broadcaster. ESPN, CNN, Weather Channel HD, HDNet, HBO HD almost all content broadcast looks great and life-like with Varus setting. TNT HD NBA games not so much... Nat Geo HD and Food Network HD it's hit and miss.

Pretty obvious the broadcasters are causing this annoyance and standards aren't respected (some of the aforementioned content does look better with Standard mode, but I refuse to use it out of spite for the broadcast... which might come as a surprise to some of you. Regardless of what I may think of a standard, it would be nice if we had some uniform behavior from broadcasters and it's easy to see that isn't the case... very easy to see with sports)


rmz, I think the only standard that is not standard in the HD arena is with Fox Sports as they are using 720p as their standard. As for color it depends on the upscaler, as old SD information is converted it may not have the same tone or color as the original SD broadcast. Our local station News team looks crappy, as they do not have new equipment... the upscaling is doing what it can but the old cameras and equipment needs some calibrating to some degree. Though why pay for refurbishing when new stuff is to be in use soon. Hopefully before the year is done, we should see more improvement with live and newly recorded shows.

It may also be that the old SD content has degraded through the years as early color TV shows faded badly. Though some movies that were shot in Technicolor still hold up to todays standards. The Garden of Allah was shot in the late 30's and was the first full length movie to use Technicolor.

Don't blame the studio or broadcast stations, it is the media that was used to keep archives. Not all archives are of the same quality.
post #245 of 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmz76 View Post

All this talk about adjusting White Balance... didn't the CNet reviewer warn to stay away from this setting? Keep in mind all Lee and Varus (who's disappeared for some reason) hard work is to try and target the D65 white point, once you change white balance from 0 to + or - you throw that off slightly. [Correct me if I'm wrong Lee]

I'm the one who came up with the White Balance adjustment after taking readings with my i1pro vs the Chroma C5. It was a stop gap adjustment, before getting grayscale corrected in the SM. It actually works very well, as long as it is only RED or BLUE that is in error across the 0 to 100 stimulas range.
post #246 of 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Bailey View Post

No, I do not use the filters or blue only mode. Leave it at 45. White Balance at 0 now with these settings.

Thanks Lee, picture looks fantastic!! I appreciate your hard work.
post #247 of 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtbfreddy View Post

Thanks Lee, picture looks fantastic!! I appreciate your hard work.

I am dying to try Lee's new settings on my own set, but I have to wait after diner and after the kids hit the sack.

I was already very happy with prior Lee's settings with WB set to +2. I guess this will be icing on the cake.

Thanks again Lee for all your hard work!
post #248 of 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Low Tech View Post

rmz, I think the only standard that is not standard in the HD arena is with Fox Sports as they are using 720p as their standard. As for color it depends on the upscaler, as old SD information is converted it may not have the same tone or color as the original SD broadcast. Our local station News team looks crappy, as they do not have new equipment... the upscaling is doing what it can but the old cameras and equipment needs some calibrating to some degree. Though why pay for refurbishing when new stuff is to be in use soon. Hopefully before the year is done, we should see more improvement with live and newly recorded shows.

It may also be that the old SD content has degraded through the years as early color TV shows faded badly. Though some movies that were shot in Technicolor still hold up to todays standards. The Garden of Allah was shot in the late 30's and was the first full length movie to use Technicolor.

Don't blame the studio or broadcast stations, it is the media that was used to keep archives. Not all archives are of the same quality.

Well, I'm refering specifically to non unscaled HD content. Watch an HD basketball game on TNT HD then watch one on ESPN. There are obvious issues that at first I thought had to do with lighting until comparing the same venue firmed on different networks. It's obviously in the camera or processing, but uniform it isn't... which makes the standard a bit of joke.. but hey, it's all we've got... Some broadcasters do get it right and it's greatly appreciated
post #249 of 557
These settings look better than before on my set...will keep them...thanks Lee....
post #250 of 557
Lee, I found that both my DIY calibration and your final calibration settings are very close picture wise. With very minor differences (being expected) not being much a PQ issue.

I can say that it is the best plug in go anyone has posted for this TV!!!

Lee, I don't know what your CCA color sensor readings are... as for a proper reading the service menu picture must be at the same level as your normal viewing levels.

It is best done with Expert mode enabled and all the settings plugged in. to push the settings toggle LED Brightness to the setting you use. Once you have the reading it would show the coralation between your CCA RGB data and your Desaturation settings. It may help as to assisting others with just plugging in your calibration information, as I may be able to add some light into LED light engine correction with your numbers. Though the endusers will need to post their CCA sensor RGB numbers before asking for assistance.

As I noted before the calibration numbers can be anywhere up or down the OEM service menu default starting points. Seeing your numbers being obviously different compared to mine... I still expected a similar PQ to mine, as I have been able to get a very good PQ using various different CCA RGB coordinates from my previous tests.

I found that adjusting CCA helped to get the best PQ after I plugged in everything you stated. If your numbers were closer for my Light Engine, I would have just played with Desaturation as it effects CCA. I used my DIY method on CCA to bring some of the Blue down as your TV may have less Red push through the Light Engine. I expect if I don't get CCA RGB sensor all equal, I need to work on Destaturation since Yellow is also being pushed a wee bit.

I can say using your new settings will work great over OEM, but if you want the best PQ some work with CCA will help. I think RMZ's rant is still valid but should be at a comment level unlike Chicken Little; Though from my observation with using your numbers, and comparing from my own... that as long as all the numbers are calibrated properly and the LED light engine does not push too much red, blue or green over all, that your numbers hold up to a certain degree when pushing to another like tv.
post #251 of 557
Thread Starter 
If you have a PS3 or XBOX360 connected via HDMI....I have some good news:

http://www.next3d.com/NEXT_3D.html

Quote:


Full High Definition Stereoscopic 3D has arrived, and Next3D is bringing it into the living room.



Hollywood is feverishly releasing tent pole 3D movies at a rate of one per month. Professional sporting events are being broadcast in 3D.



Stunning and affordable 3D-Ready TV's are here, comfortable 3D glasses are available, and powerful platforms, such as Xbox 360 and PS3 are capable of playing content in Full 1080p 3D HD when powered by Next3D's player.



Next3D's proven tools for filmmakers streamline 3D production and finishing, while our content distribution technology seamlessly delivers the 3D product to customers.

All you will need is one emitter and as many pairs of glasses as you want.
post #252 of 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmz76 View Post

Well, I'm refering specifically to non unscaled HD content. Watch an HD basketball game on TNT HD then watch one on ESPN. There are obvious issues that at first I thought had to do with lighting until comparing the same venue firmed on different networks. It's obviously in the camera or processing, but uniform it isn't... which makes the standard a bit of joke.. but hey, it's all we've got... Some broadcasters do get it right and it's greatly appreciated

There are a lot of variables in this chain to consider, such as TNTHD=1080i, ESPN 720P, before you go trashing broadcasting standards. Are the two broadcasts from the same day/same game? If they are, they are most likely using the same cameras and production company and any differences you see are farther down the pipeline. The differences could be introduced by your cable or sat company using more compression on one channel over the other.

Live TV also doesn't have the luxury of a lot of post processing like a TV show or movie does, and is probably the least likely programming to look the same, due to not having much control over lighting and environment.

whatever is going on with your set, can't be diagnosed without a screen-shot or something as there are too many variables...
post #253 of 557
I haven't died yet, just got done changing it around so that my TV is calibrated without CCA tweaks to correct Y, just using the results from measuring the test screens. As a result, Blue Y is too low but I'm able to increase the contrast more than before without distortion. Also I'll be posting some Cinema CCA tweaks for all color temps so that if you like a cooler temp you can use that and still have it be an accurate white point (for that temp) I'm not providing separate desaturation settings for each color temp though because it would probably drive me insane so they may be off by a bit. BTW, Lee, how did you fix yellow on your newest settings? Any trick or did you just continually tweak until it somehow got there?
post #254 of 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Varus View Post

I haven't died yet, just got done changing it around so that my TV is calibrated without CCA tweaks to correct Y, just using the results from measuring the test screens. As a result, Blue Y is too low but I'm able to increase the contrast more than before without distortion. Also I'll be posting some Cinema CCA tweaks for all color temps so that if you like a cooler temp you can use that and still have it be an accurate white point (for that temp) I'm not providing separate desaturation settings for each color temp though because it would probably drive me insane so they may be off by a bit. BTW, Lee, how did you fix yellow on your newest settings? Any trick or did you just continually tweak until it somehow got there?

Great to see you haven't left us! For the time being I've resorted back to your original settings which allowed for the higher contrast, but look forward to whatever you wish to share...
post #255 of 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by nadafinga View Post

There are a lot of variables in this chain to consider, such as TNTHD=1080i, ESPN 720P, before you go trashing broadcasting standards. Are the two broadcasts from the same day/same game? If they are, they are most likely using the same cameras and production company and any differences you see are farther down the pipeline. The differences could be introduced by your cable or sat company using more compression on one channel over the other.

Live TV also doesn't have the luxury of a lot of post processing like a TV show or movie does, and is probably the least likely programming to look the same, due to not having much control over lighting and environment.

whatever is going on with your set, can't be diagnosed without a screen-shot or something as there are too many variables...

Well you make a good points, but if you've attended any live sports events and sat near the camera crews you know ESPN has their own team, local channels may share a camera crew. Not going to pretend to understand all of that, but there certainly is a lot of variance in live feeds of sports events that don't seem to be related to lighting.

Newscast are the same way. Flesh tones on one channel may look accurate on another slightly off. The higher quality the display the more flaws it will reveal I guess
post #256 of 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by rmz76 View Post

Well you make a good points, but if you've attended any live sports events and sat near the camera crews you know ESPN has their own team, local channels may share a camera crew. Not going to pretend to understand all of that, but there certainly is a lot of variance in live feeds of sports events that don't seem to be related to lighting.

Newscast are the same way. Flesh tones on one channel may look accurate on another slightly off. The higher quality the display the more flaws it will reveal I guess

Actually, it really just depends on the network or station. Some bigger networks may have their own live trucks and crew, or they may contract out to a company specializing in covering live events. Local stations usually will contract out, if they do live sports coverage at all. Otherwise, locals will usually just have one guy on the floor/field for the local news highlight reel. It's pretty rare to have more than one company covering an event that aren't sharing a feed however, there are only so many "nests" to put a camera.

I guess that just reiterates the point though... too many variables....
post #257 of 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Varus View Post

I haven't died yet, just got done changing it around so that my TV is calibrated without CCA tweaks to correct Y, just using the results from measuring the test screens. As a result, Blue Y is too low but I'm able to increase the contrast more than before without distortion. Also I'll be posting some Cinema CCA tweaks for all color temps so that if you like a cooler temp you can use that and still have it be an accurate white point (for that temp) I'm not providing separate desaturation settings for each color temp though because it would probably drive me insane so they may be off by a bit. BTW, Lee, how did you fix yellow on your newest settings? Any trick or did you just continually tweak until it somehow got there?

It helped to put OVERLAP back at 15%. Plus, I've found that when you desaturate RED(since it is too high), it will push yellow around. I also upgraded to an i1pro spectro.

Here's the Gamut with the Data grids for DeltaE
Gamut and Data

The fields you are looking for are labeled:
dE 94 - Overall dE error
dL 94 - Luminance/lightness
dC 94 - Saturation error
dH 94 - Hue/Phase Error
Of course, the closer to zero the better.


As you can see, all the other colors look good in DE with the exception of RED. This is why I don't recommend trying to match up the decoder with filters. All you're doing is increasing the Y of the other colors, and also pushing RED Y even further away. These settings do seem to give a much richer looking color to the picture, with quite a lot of depth(with brightness at 44).

So, what have you found about taking the RED Y down without dragging the COLOR control down?
post #258 of 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrcorwin View Post

If you have a PS3 or XBOX360 connected via HDMI....I have some good news:

http://www.next3d.com/NEXT_3D.html

All you will need is one emitter and as many pairs of glasses as you want.

Interesting. However, it didn't say were you can get the lcd glasses. Additionally, it appears that the 3d content will have to be streamed to your PS3 (i.e., you won't have a physical disc). Either way, it brings some more hope of using that feature on this set.
post #259 of 557
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by BATman94 View Post

Interesting. However, it didn't say were you can get the lcd glasses. Additionally, it appears that the 3d content will have to be streamed to your PS3 (i.e., you won't have a physical disc). Either way, it brings some more hope of using that feature on this set.

It does. If you follow the link to the list of 3D ready tech...it has links at the bottom for various companies which sell the glasses. The 3D content will be downloadable in the same way that videos and movies from the PSN are now.
post #260 of 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by jrcorwin View Post

It does. If you follow the link to the list of 3D ready tech...it has links at the bottom for various companies which sell the glasses. The 3D content will be downloadable in the same way that videos and movies from the PSN are now.

Thanks, found it. So much for their "affordable solution" comment. It looks to be about $100 a pair (family of four=$400) to view a movie that you have to d/l and possibly lose if something happens to the PS3.

Despite my criticism above, I'm still in favor of it--I just won't be able to be the early-adopter.
post #261 of 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lee Bailey View Post

It helped to put OVERLAP back at 15%. Plus, I've found that when you desaturate RED(since it is too high), it will push yellow around. I also upgraded to an i1pro spectro.

Here's the Gamut with the Data grids for DeltaE
Gamut and Data

As you can see, all the other colors look good in DE with the exception of RED. This is why I don't recommend trying to match up the decoder with filters. All you're doing is increasing the Y of the other colors, and also pushing RED Y even further away. These settings do seem to give a much richer looking color to the picture, with quite a lot of depth(with brightness at 44).

So, what have you found about taking the RED Y down without dragging the COLOR control down?

Hmmm, I guess I'll have to try putting overlap back to 15% then. I've actually never been completely sure about what it does. Modifying Red Y without dragging the Color control down works although it takes a lot of trial and error because due to the matrixed color, modifying one Y value in the CCA changes everything. Maybe Overlap at 15% will change things but if I use the CCA to get red Y and green Y correct, blue Y is too low. My latest settings have Red Y too high because that's the only way I've been able to bring yellow into line. I'll see if I can get it all correct with the overlap set though. BTW, I'm having a horrible time getting the 25% 50% 75% saturation readings for yellow to be correct. Even when 100% sat yellow is accurate, those others are too low. Are you having the same problem?
post #262 of 557
I entered all Lee's settings and continued with my first round of DIY calibration using CCA color sensor.

Lee was able to send me his color sensor values for RGB, but I had already completed most of my calibration.

I was able to succeed with my DIY calibration by using just Red-x and Red-y coordinate adjustments.

Lee's Coordinate | Mine
=================
Red-x 699 | 701
Red-y 299 | 294

Once I got RGB values equal (Green toggled at equal and -1 from the rest), I then adjusted Magenta and Cyan in the Desaturation menu.

This was done with Red and Green color filters. I adjusted each one to the same brightness as their complement from each filter.

Lee's Coordinate | Mine
=================
Magenta-x 316 | 350
Magenta-y 151 | 168
Cyan-x 220 | 217
Cyan-y 327 | 326
post #263 of 557
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Low Tech View Post

I entered all Lee's settings and continued with my first round of DIY calibration using CCA color sensor.

Lee was able to send me his color sensor values for RGB, but I had already completed most of my calibration.

I was able to succeed with my DIY calibration by using just Red-x and Red-y coordinate adjustments.

Lee's Coordinate | Mine
=================
Red-x 699 | 701
Red-y 299 | 294

Once I got RGB values equal (Green toggled at equal and -1 from the rest), I then adjusted Magenta and Cyan in the Desaturation menu.

This was done with Red and Green color filters. I adjusted each one to the same brightness as their complement from each filter.

Lee's Coordinate | Mine
=================
Magenta-x 316 | 340
Magenta-y 151 | 162
Cyan-x 220 | 213
Cyan-y 327 | 318

Those numbers are different (as would be expected with different displays), but still rather close. This proves at least one thing Low Tech...your method works.
post #264 of 557
I also had to drop the Yellow settings a bit in Desaturation... After having my eyes adjust, I saw a wee bit of yellow saturation. 425, 530 seems to work for now, as I may adjust further later on.
post #265 of 557
iI'm looking to improve my picture without adjusting my colors. I have a few questions that will help my quest:

1) Gamma - Is changing the gamma in the SM different than changing the gamma in the UM? (ie. can you set the UM gamma to mimick the changes to SM gamma 0 (film)?)


2) DB to off - similar question as above. Is there a UM setting that does the same thing as setting DB to "off" in the SM? I am also curious as to what DB in the service menu does.

Thanks for any help. I really like to tweak the TV, but I also strive to understand what I am changing.

Jay
post #266 of 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by amdrider View Post

iI'm looking to improve my picture without adjusting my colors. I have a few questions that will help my quest:

1) Gamma - Is changing the gamma in the SM different than changing the gamma in the UM? (ie. can you set the UM gamma to mimick the changes to SM gamma 0 (film)?)


2) DB to off - similar question as above. Is there a UM setting that does the same thing as setting DB to "off" in the SM? I am also curious as to what DB in the service menu does.

Thanks for any help. I really like to tweak the TV, but I also strive to understand what I am changing.

Jay

1. Yes, it is different. You are selecting the Gamma 'table' that the user menu will use.

2. Not that I know of. Even with Dynamic Black turned off in the UM(I acutally don't use ANY Dynamic items in the UM), the black level pumping I was seeing still occured until I turned DB off in the SM.
post #267 of 557
hi everyone ,
i will be honest with you all ,this is my first dlp tv samsung 750 67inch
and i am a little afraid of it .
i know most of you guy already own one or more
the big question that i am asking myself is
what s the best setting for a clear crisp image
insight user menu and tv menu
please help i am comfuse
my fm is 1007.4
post #268 of 557
Quote:
Originally Posted by Low Tech View Post

I entered all Lee's settings and continued with my first round of DIY calibration using CCA color sensor.

Lee was able to send me his color sensor values for RGB, but I had already completed most of my calibration.

I was able to succeed with my DIY calibration by using just Red-x and Red-y coordinate adjustments.

Lee's Coordinate | Mine
=================
Red-x 699 | 701
Red-y 299 | 294

Once I got RGB values equal (Green toggled at equal and -1 from the rest), I then adjusted Magenta and Cyan in the Desaturation menu.

This was done with Red and Green color filters. I adjusted each one to the same brightness as their complement from each filter.

Lee's Coordinate | Mine
=================
Magenta-x 316 | 350
Magenta-y 151 | 168
Cyan-x 220 | 217
Cyan-y 327 | 326

Dang, I think I'm gonna start calling you Geordi La Forge!
post #269 of 557
Thanks again Lee. Your settings perform very well on my 67". I had to set dynamic contrast to low and up led to medium for directtv viewing.
post #270 of 557
i have a 67750 an i put all the settings at the beginning of this thread for the 67 the only one problem i have is that i like alil britter picture then the movie mode so after i put all the settings in i went back to the picture mode an put it at standard what i noticed is that the tv when i shut it or switch hdmi inputs its switching back to dynamic is there a collaboaration for standard mode or how can i get the picture mode to stay at standard
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