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My Budget (Ugly) Garage Theater - Page 2

post #31 of 91
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jostenmeat View Post

Cool. Have you tried it as upright yet? Humor me?

Nice axe. AFAIK, that Ibanez is a good value for someone who doesn't have the money to blow on a Gibson. I've asked a luthier before why classicals and acoustic guitars don't use a floating/suspended bridge like your guitar, or a violin, or cello. Use the body itself to deal with the tension, and not a glued on bridge which eventually will lead to the sonic demise of the instrument. The luthier did not give me a satisfactory answer.

The acoustic electric is from the Ibanez Artcore series. I think it was around $300-350. It is a really nice guitar for the money. It has a great sound and a nice feel. The construction feels solid. Besides the name and nicer asthetics, I bet the Gibson adds better quality pickups and slightly better quality parts. For a guy like me the Ibanez is perfect. This is the first guitar I have owned with a floating bridge. Once I got it set up right it has been perfect. Maybe they don't typically use floating bridges because manufacturers figure we guitar players won't be able to set them up right.

The other guitar, the one with the camoflage Picaso print is getting into Gibson money. Had I bought it new they ran for about $1400. I got it used for around $900. The action is amazing and the DiMarzio pick-ups with Petrucci's custom wiring scheme allow for a wide range of sounds.

I did try the center channel upright. It sounded great as well. I am not sure I can tell the difference between the upright and upside down positions. I will switch it back and forth this weekend to see if the sound is noticably different, and also see if it measures differently. I need to recalibrate after the room rearrangement anyway.

Once again, thanks for the advice.
post #32 of 91
Jedirun -

Love the set-up. What I see when I look at your pictures is a man determined.

The beauty is that all of that clutter is probably good for the acoustics of the room. I'm sure that it helps break up the reflected sound and cuts down on the reverb, so don't clean things up too much, OK. And the wall-o-stuff in the back should serve as a nice sound barrier to the outside.

Kudos for making it work.
post #33 of 91
I totally agree with hifisponge (hi there sponge ! - do you remember me from AVF?). That shows dedication mate and acoustically should sound dryzabone ! Wanna swap rooms?

Take it easy.
post #34 of 91
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by hifisponge View Post

Jedirun -

Love the set-up. What I see when I look at your pictures is a man determined.

The beauty is that all of that clutter is probably good for the acoustics of the room. I'm sure that it helps break up the reflected sound and cuts down on the reverb, so don't clean things up too much, OK. And the wall-o-stuff in the back should serve as a nice sound barrier to the outside.

Kudos for making it work.

Thanks,

I guess I should add some more acoustic panels to make up for the lack of junk. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on how you look at it, I don't think I will be getting anything else out of the garage until we move, so the clutter will stick around and help the sound.
post #35 of 91
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by THE_FORCE View Post

I totally agree with hifisponge (hi there sponge ! - do you remember me from AVF?). That shows dedication mate and acoustically should sound dryzabone ! Wanna swap rooms?

Take it easy.

Only if you leave all the equipment in the room. Your system is amazing.
post #36 of 91
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jostenmeat View Post

Cool. Have you tried it as upright yet? Humor me?

jostenmeat,

I finally finished my last week of nights for the year and got around to trying the speaker upright. I think you were right. It does make the sound seem like it is coming from the screen more.

I am going to leave it like this until I get my 2010 JTR Triple 8's. I ordered them yesterday. They will be shipping in July.

Once the JTR's arrive I may move my left and right out a couple of inches so I can get their tweeters up to ear level.

Once I have them I am going to get rid of my dipole/bipole speakers, move the Vifa studios back to the rear and move my front left and right to surround left and right. I may also add a couple of subs using the M&K subwoofer enclosures from deepsurplus.com. I would place them between my LCR's up front. I am not sure this will be necessary and I am not sure if that would put me beyond the limits of the 15 Amp circuit in the garage.
post #37 of 91
Thread Starter 
I have a question about optimum speaker placement for movies and music.

From what I have seen and read you are supposed to have your speakers nearly parallel with a slight toe in for optimum imaging. However, THX, DTS and Dolby all seem to recommend that all the speakers in the room face directly towards the listening position, including the front left and right. I imagine this will cause problems with stereo imagin with 2 channel music, but my bigger concern is that it will adversely affect the sound for the people who are not smack dab in the middle of the listening area when watching movies.

I am trying to figure out if I should set my new LCR speakers up the way I have them now or should I try to point the left and right toward the center of the listening area.

Use is about 50/50 music and movies.
post #38 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedirun View Post

jostenmeat,

I finally finished my last week of nights for the year and got around to trying the speaker upright. I think you were right. It does make the sound seem like it is coming from the screen more.

Thanks.

Quote:


I am going to leave it like this until I get my 2010 JTR Triple 8's. I ordered them yesterday. They will be shipping in July.

Whoa! nice.

Quote:


Once the JTR's arrive I may move my left and right out a couple of inches so I can get their tweeters up to ear level.

Sounds good.

Quote:


Once I have them I am going to get rid of my dipole/bipole speakers, move the Vifa studios back to the rear and move my front left and right to surround left and right. I may also add a couple of subs using the M&K subwoofer enclosures from deepsurplus.com. I would place them between my LCR's up front. I am not sure this will be necessary and I am not sure if that would put me beyond the limits of the 15 Amp circuit in the garage.

IMO, your space there isn't huge, and so I don't think the main benefit, particularly for you, will be output, but rather smoother in room response. It is pretty tight in there, but it would be nice to experiment with a couple/few setups. While they say headroom is key in the subwoofer realm, again your space isn't that huge. IOW, I am not particularly worried about the 15amp circuit. I just looked back at your equipment list, and it already seems you have some voltage regulator, etc, but personally I might consider, if having bunches of amps running, a UPS to connect players, projector (but not receiver, nor sub amps, unless you can spend a LOT on a UPS). OTOH, I don't think a UPS is essential like some others do.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedirun View Post

I have a question about optimum speaker placement for movies and music.

From what I have seen and read you are supposed to have your speakers nearly parallel with a slight toe in for optimum imaging. However, THX, DTS and Dolby all seem to recommend that all the speakers in the room face directly towards the listening position, including the front left and right. I imagine this will cause problems with stereo imagin with 2 channel music, but my bigger concern is that it will adversely affect the sound for the people who are not smack dab in the middle of the listening area when watching movies.

I think there are too many factors to know, at least for someone like me. Speakers behave very differently, and then you have that pandora's box of room acoustics, listener positioning, treatment positioning. So, for me, there is only one option, and that is experimenting.

IMHO, audio reproduction for movies is simply not as exigent as music reproduction. IOW, I wouldn't worry about the guests. I am sure they are probably having a very swell time when visiting!

I've recently read bits about tweeter hotspotting, or something like that, and the collapse of imaging when pulling speakers significantly further than 30 degrees, or something like that, but OTOH some of the best imaging I've ever heard were with speakers rather far apart. IOW, YMMV.

EDIT: I presume you are doing proper research on drivers to match any particular enclosure size. TS parameters. Also, if worried about listeners spread out quite a bit, I would opt for speakers that have very good off-axis response. A couple of brands I think of are Ascend and B&W, neither of which I own.

Quote:


I am trying to figure out if I should set my new LCR speakers up the way I have them now or should I try to point the left and right toward the center of the listening area.

Use is about 50/50 music and movies.

Experiment. And those results will differ when you change speakers. A little over a year ago, I went for the gold, and made a separate stereo and HT. My HT is way more popular, and the stereo has a sweetspot that only fits one person in its present configuration.

Good luck with the rest of your residency. My younger brother is doing his, and next month will be his final ER rotation, of which he will be very, very relieved to have finished.
post #39 of 91
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by jostenmeat View Post

Whoa! nice

I got the JTR's now because they are having a preorder sale. I saved $900 on three of them.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jostenmeat View Post

I presume you are doing proper research on drivers to match any particular enclosure size. TS parameters.

Deepsurplus has done the work for us and is selling a replacement driver that they picked specifically for the M&K VX-1250 boxes. All I would have to do is find a suitable amp.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jostenmeat View Post

Also, if worried about listeners spread out quite a bit, I would opt for speakers that have very good off-axis response. A couple of brands I think of are Ascend and B&W, neither of which I own.

The JTR's are supposed to have an excellent off axis response due to the use of a coaxial driver for the midrange and tweeters. They are designed for use in live music venues where lobing would be undesirable. My question about placement is probably more theoretical than practical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jostenmeat View Post

Experiment. And those results will differ when you change speakers. A little over a year ago, I went for the gold, and made a separate stereo and HT. My HT is way more popular, and the stereo has a sweetspot that only fits one person in its present configuration.

I need to do a lot of experimentation.

Thanks again for taking the time to answer my questions.
post #40 of 91
Thread Starter 
I am looking for some advice. I bought one box (8) of the 1.5 inch Acoustaboard tiles. My original plan was to make (4) 3 inch thick panels and hang them on the walls. 2 on the side walls at the first reflection points and 2 behind the side surrounds. http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/vbcla...do=ad&id=10321 http://www.certainteed.com/resources/3025022.pdf

However, I got an idea. Would it be more effective to stack four of the pannels up, cut 8" off of the ends, wrap them in burlap and stick them in the space between the lower shelf and the top of the coffee table as a makeshift bass trap? I would lose the fronts of each panel, but would 6 six inches of fiberglass exposed on all sides with either 2 feet or 40" of absorption in either direction.

I would still use the other 4 to make (2) 3" panels for the first reflection points on the side walls I could make smaller panels with the 8" x 24" pieces that I would have left over to put behind the side surrounds.
What do you think?
post #41 of 91
Hey man, my instinct is that it's not the best application. I'm talking about the table. Bass trapping will be most effective at the boundaries, and most particularly where the boundaries meet (corners). Where two walls meet is a good place, and where three walls meet, even better. I would think that 3" of fiberglass would be minimal for bass trapping, and would consider three layers to make 4.5, if not even thicker than that. A bit of air gap between the panel and wall will help the trap to be more efficient, but nothing beats pure mass.

FWIW, if your speakers are to have very good off axis response (similar to polar) you might enjoy leaving the first sidewall reflection points untreated. Depends who you ask.

Everyone agrees on bass trapping, and in a more modest room does it become even more imperative.
post #42 of 91
Thread Starter 
So what you are saying is that I might be better off putting 3 or 4 layers together and spanning a corner of a room at an angle, so there is a large air gap behind the panel.

I had not heard that about the first reflection points. Is treating the first reflection points better for a room with a single listening position for listening to 2 channel music?

Am I better off just bass trapping and leaving the rest alone?

One of my thoughts was to put pannels spanning the corner above the screen at an angle as the rest of the corners are kind of occupied.
post #43 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedirun View Post

So what you are saying is that I might be better off putting 3 or 4 layers together and spanning a corner of a room at an angle, so there is a large air gap behind the panel.

Yes, something like that. I've been led to believe it's virtually impossible to go overkill as far as trapping for bass. There are members here who have on the order of 50 panels or so in the room.

Quote:


I had not heard that about the first reflection points. Is treating the first reflection points better for a room with a single listening position for listening to 2 channel music?

Actually, I think NOT treating the sidewall reflection can be a good thing with 2 channel. I can't remember where or why, but that with a mch system, the sidewalls will more likely benefit in treatment. Better go ask the experts in the Audio Theory subforum.

However, even in a 2ch situation, you only want to leave the sidewalls alone when the speakers have superb off-axis response. For if the offaxis response is very different from the polar response, then you'd want to absorb the "inaccurate" offaxis information at the sidewall.

Quote:


Am I better off just bass trapping and leaving the rest alone?

Not necessarily, but bass trapping will be recommended no matter who you ask. That's my guess anyways.

Quote:


One of my thoughts was to put pannels spanning the corner above the screen at an angle as the rest of the corners are kind of occupied.

Sounds good. Like I said, it's virtually impossible to go overkill with bass traps. If there's an unoccupied corner, trap it for bass. I've been under the impression that the front wall might benefit the most in trapping; but that's just an empirical impression I have while roaming forums for others' opinions. Of course, that's if you have only one wall to choose for a candidate. Best is to go nuts!
post #44 of 91
Thread Starter 
Supposedly the JTR's have very good off axis response so I will have to look the theories regarding side wall treatment.

I will make 6 inch panels and put them in the upper front corner, since it seems like that can not be a bad thing.

By the way, how do I know if my untreated side walls are helping or hurting the sound? Should I turn Audyssey off and do a test with and without panels on the wall? Is there anything in particular I should look for and do you know of any test material that I can play to see if there are problems with first reflections? I guess the test should wait until the JTR's get here since I am sure the off axis response will be very different from my current speakers.
post #45 of 91
Thread Starter 
jostenmeat,

By the way, thanks for all your help.
post #46 of 91
You're very welcome. Looking back at your pics, I don't think you can properly absorb the first sidewall reflection anyways, unless you cleared a LOT of stuff out, including the space heater, water cooler, etc.

I just read this classified 2 minutes ago. Looks like a deal, local pickup only in SD! $30 each for a GIK 244, 3 available.

http://forums.audioholics.com/forums...037#post575037
post #47 of 91
Thread Starter 
Thanks I just replied to that ad.

The coolers are gone as is most of the stuff on the right wall. The air conditioner has been moved so it is farther away from the front of the room. If the GIK traps are still available I will experiment with them on the side walls.
post #48 of 91
Thread Starter 
I got them. Thanks again. That saved me over $200 when you factor in shipping. Two of them are even a fancy print.

I guess next weekend will be a big acoustic overhaul. Make frames for the Acoustaboard and hang the GIK panels.

Then a month or so until the JTR's get here. I will probably set up the audiosource amps at the same time or maybe a little before so I can see if there is a noticable difference when compared to the receiver.

With or without the addition of a couple of subwoofers this will be a pretty impressive, while still ugly movie theater.
post #49 of 91
Nice score!
post #50 of 91
Thread Starter 
Jostenmeat,

What do you think of this idea?

I have just enough room below the screen that I could place all three triple 8's vertical. It says that they have interchangable positions of the speakers, so I could put the coaxial in the top position and have that just below the screen for all three speakers. If it turns out that this change has to happen at the factory, I won't do it because the final goal is to have all three of these behind an acoustically transparent screen vertical as MTM's. So for the time being I will raise the LR to the sides of the screen with the coaxials at ear level and place the center horizontally. If I can change them back and forth keeping all 3 vertical could be nice. Supposedly having the coaxial in the center lowers the frequency below which the redundant woofers will interact and cause lobing abyway.

By the way, I installed the new acoustic panels and recalibrated the system. It definitely sounds different. The bass is crystal clear. I am not sure yet that it sounds better in general. I have only listened to music so far. I will watch some movies tomorrow to see what I think. I will post some pictures tomorrow. It definitely looks different.
post #51 of 91
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jedirun View Post

I have just enough room below the screen that I could place all three triple 8's vertical. It says that they have interchangable positions of the speakers, so I could put the coaxial in the top position and have that just below the screen for all three speakers. If it turns out that this change has to happen at the factory, I won't do it because the final goal is to have all three of these behind an acoustically transparent screen vertical as MTM's. So for the time being I will raise the LR to the sides of the screen with the coaxials at ear level and place the center horizontally. If I can change them back and forth keeping all 3 vertical could be nice. Supposedly having the coaxial in the center lowers the frequency below which the redundant woofers will interact and cause lobing abyway.

Assuming that I understand you correctly, it sounds like a good plan. I don't think I can assist you here, as it sounds like you already know what you're doing. Yeah, as for the extent of lobing issues, it's not only about the xover point between woofers, but the spacing between them as well. (Closer is better).
Quote:


By the way, I installed the new acoustic panels and recalibrated the system. It definitely sounds different. The bass is crystal clear. I am not sure yet that it sounds better in general. I have only listened to music so far. I will watch some movies tomorrow to see what I think. I will post some pictures tomorrow. It definitely looks different.

Thanks for the impressions.
post #52 of 91
Thread Starter 
I got a chance to play Rock Band today with my wife. I am no longer unsure whether the treatments made the system sound better. It sounds a lot better. The bass is extremely clean, I am no longer getting rattles in the room on the big notes. (I have not watched a movie yet, so there may still be a few left.) This also seemed to make the rest of the sound quite a bit better.

Initially I was not sure if the treatments had made the sound too dead. (Certainly not anechoic, I have been in an anechoic chamber) However, I think that my initial impression was based on the choice of music. After listening to about 25 more songs, I am certain that the panels were a good purchase.

The treatments in the room now include:

2 4" OC 703 panels in the front upper corner (Off white burlap)
2 2" OC 703 behind the LCR speakers (Tab burlap)
1 4" 244 GIK Bass trap on top of the subwoofer in front of the water heater (Black)
1 4" 244 GIK Bass trap in the upper right corner (Timberline Twig)
1 4" 244 GIK Bass trap on the wall at the first reflection point (Timberline Twig)(I didn't have another easily accessable corner, and this may add some symmetry to the room since it is accross from the door to the garage which is nearly always open when watching movies or listening to music)
2 6" Acoustaboard black panels behind the listening position (Uncovered)

I also threw some tarps over the boxes in the back of the room.

Here are the pictures:







post #53 of 91
Thread Starter 
I watched a movie tonight and the treatments really helped, I did not realize how much the muddy bass was making everything else sound bad.

I also figured out that I may have been better off just buying finished panels from GIK. After buying material for frames and fabric, as well as paying for shipping for the fiberglass, I think the price would have turned out the same if I just bought the finished panels. I would have saved time and they would definitely look better. The three I did get were a huge deal, thanks to Jostenmeat for alerting me.

Anyway, I am very happy with the sound now and can't wait to watch some more movies.
post #54 of 91
Thread Starter 
The 2010 JTR Triple 8's are shipping next week. I will get rid of the cinder block stands and run all 3 vertical with the coaxial in the top position just below the bottom of the screen. My current LR will move to surround duty and the current surrounds will move to surround back. I can't wait.
post #55 of 91
Thread Starter 
Big changes are coming.

I finally got my amps installed. I sold my cambridge soundworks rear surrounds.

I moved the coffee table behind the couch so the sound coming from the JTR's will not be obstructed.

I can not tell any difference between the amplifers in the Amp-300's and the internal amplifiers in the Onkyo 905. I did not really expect to hear a difference and I am happy that the sound is equal. The main reason for the external amps is to be able to rund the 4 ohm JTR's without worrying about the low impedence, I know my receiver can handle 4 ohm loads, but it runs hot as it is.

The Onkyo is noticably cooler just running the processing circuitry than it was doing the processing and amplification, but it still runs hotter than the Audiosource amps that are running the speakers.

My Triple 8's are a little delayed since I ordered the child resistant model. Basically the installation version with steel grills and speakon connectors. This will hopefully keep my daughter from pulling out the speaker cables or damaging the drivers. The steel grills are still at the powder coater's but will hopefully be done this week.

I have some new cable management to do. I also need to terminate the LCR speaker cables with Speakon connectors. While I am at it, I may reterminate some of the cables for the surround speakers with spades that fit their binding posts as well as the binding posts on the Audiosource amps.

I will post a review once the speakers arrive. I hope my sub can keep up. It is such a small room it may be fine.
post #56 of 91
Thread Starter 
By the way, does anyone have any thoughts on which Blu-ray I should use to test out the JTR's when they get here?
post #57 of 91
Talk about a man cave. Nice work, I bet it gets real cozy in there watching a movie.
post #58 of 91
Thread Starter 
The Triple 8's are going to be here next Tuesday. It will be a busy weekend getting everything ready.
post #59 of 91
Thread Starter 
I finally got around to unboxing my Triple 8's. I know some people think they are ugly and my wife would probably agree, but I think they look great. Even before plugging them in you can tell that they are serious speakers. I have a week off of work and as much as I can I am going to spend it getting the theater in order. I hope to have some pictures up in the next few days. It should be pretty fun.
post #60 of 91
congrats on the new speakers. I'm sure they will rock your garage. Have you decided on an amp for them?
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