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Oppo BDP-83 or 83SE versus other blu ray players thread - Page 115

post #3421 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

Well, since this is the OPPO BDP-83 versus other Blu-ray players thread, (and not the ABT vs HQV thread), what other BD player can you offer up that has a scaling/deinterlacing/upconversion solution that is better than the ABT and has all of the features that the BDP-83 has at a similar price point?

It is true that the Oppo offers a lot of features at a certain price point. Hence for those who need such an all in one machine, it is attractive. But if the purpose is to play BR solely, there are cheaper options which are not too shabby. My little shootout was such a test to help others understand that this point.

And in the world of diminishing returns, the next step up to the Denon costs a lot more, but does yield real benefits. Its a matter of whether the buyer wishes to or can afford such a player.

Cheers
post #3422 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

...But if the purpose is to play BR solely, there are cheaper options which are not too shabby....

But, that's really not the point of the Oppo, is it??? Everyone seems to agree that Blu-ray playback is rather equal over many players, but for the comparison to the Oppo, and for this thread, it's about the other features.
post #3423 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Hef View Post

But, that's really not the point of the Oppo, is it??? Everyone seems to agree that Blu-ray playback is rather equal over many players, but for the comparison to the Oppo, and for this thread, it's about the other features.

Eh???? .. since this is a thread in the Blu Ray Section, and not the audio/SD DVD/analogue section, I think my point is quite relevant.

Perhaps you could have a look at the shootout results I posted in the link, cheers.
post #3424 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jim Hef View Post

But, that's really not the point of the Oppo, is it??? Everyone seems to agree that Blu-ray playback is rather equal over many players, but for the comparison to the Oppo, and for this thread, it's about the other features.

Well, if you read the first post of the thread, it seems to me that it was conceived as a free forum for comparisons of just about any type. What it seems to have become is more of a forum for Oppo owners/beta testers to continously re-affirm the superiority of the player to everything else.

The reality is that it really is an excellent player and probably not much can do everything it does at its price point. The exception maybe being the Denon 3800 and that's just because it's discontinued and going for a big discount.

Much of the feature-set really aren't things that many need in one box though. Thus, the reason I think for the upcoming (and cheaper) Oppo 980-esque version which will interest many.

For those that don't need many of these features in one box, there are tons of choices offering comparable performance at even much cheaper price points. Assuming the video processing in the player is at least capable, I'd propose that the vast majority couldn't actually see much (if any) differences in "upconversion" with actual programming in a blind test.

Another wild card is streaming capability which doesn't seem to get discussed much here, but I suspect will continue to become increasingly more popular.
post #3425 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

Well, if you read the first post of the thread, it seems to me that it was conceived as a free forum for comparisons of just about any type. What it seems to have become is more of a forum for Oppo owners/beta testers to continously re-affirm the superiority of the player to everything else.

If you read through the thread there has been a awful lot of useful comparisons. Sure you encounter folk that are pro this and that, you do in every thread here.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

Another wild card is streaming capability which doesn't seem to get discussed much here, but I suspect will continue to become increasingly more popular.

Current streaming involving licensing, additional decoding of necessary codecs, and BD-player vendors need some kind of return on investment for incorporating streaming technology. The whole premise of BD player supporting streaming media is anti-BD/DVD in the first place, as the more videos you watch being streamed distracts from renting or buying optical media. Yes I think it is a interesting market gimmick for some companies to play both sides of the fence, but interesting enough the BD player market that is trying to eliminate set-top boxes is still pretty much regulated to the low end of consumer spending.
post #3426 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

It is true that the Oppo offers a lot of features at a certain price point. Hence for those who need such an all in one machine, it is attractive. But if the purpose is to play BR solely, there are cheaper options which are not too shabby. My little shootout was such a test to help others understand that this point.

I appreciate your shootout and it may have value for some people. Nice job! There is already a thread on AVS that offers something along those lines.

Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

And in the world of diminishing returns, the next step up to the Denon costs a lot more, but does yield real benefits. Its a matter of whether the buyer wishes to or can afford such a player.

Cheers

The Denon DVD-A1UDCI ($4,500.00 MSRP) is probably a fine piece of equipment, but I can't imagine that it is $4,001.00 better than the Oppo BDP-83 ($499.00). (lol). I'm pretty sure some Denon DVD-A1UDCI owners would see this differently. Talking about diminishing returns.


Respctfully,
Willie
post #3427 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

Well, if you read the first post of the thread, it seems to me that it was conceived as a free forum for comparisons of just about any type. What it seems to have become is more of a forum for Oppo owners/beta testers to continously re-affirm the superiority of the player to everything else

The reality is that it really is an excellent player and probably not much can do everything it does at its price point. The exception maybe being the Denon 3800 and that's just because it's discontinued and going for a big discount.

Much of the feature-set really aren't things that many need in one box though. Thus, the reason I think for the upcoming (and cheaper) Oppo 980-esque version which will interest many.

For those that don't need many of these features in one box, there are tons of choices offering comparable performance at even much cheaper price points. Assuming the video processing in the player is at least capable, I'd propose that the vast majority couldn't actually see much (if any) differences in "upconversion" with actual programming in a blind test.

I can where it may come off as such. Some are very passionate about this player, but for it price and feature set it can’t be beat in my opinion, but there are quite a few players that may offer some of the performance without all the features.

Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

Another wild card is streaming capability which doesn't seem to get discussed much here, but I suspect will continue to become increasingly more popular.

While I understand some peoples desire to have streaming; I don’t believe the BDP-83 was developed to target this specific crowd. Maybe this was yet another way for Oppo to distinguish itself from the likes of Samsung, LG, and Panasonic, which all put out competent products. I don’t think Oppo was just trying to put out just another blu-ray player. How many blu-ray players at or above this price point offer streaming? I can’t think of any.

I'm at the point where I use my players equally except the JVC, which belongs to the wife and kids.


Respectfully,
Willie
post #3428 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpcat View Post

The reality is that it really is an excellent player and probably not much can do everything it does at its price point. The exception maybe being the Denon 3800 and that's just because it's discontinued and going for a big discount.

Correction... nothing can do what the BDP-83 does at it's price point. For all the features that the BDP-83 does have, even the Denon 3800 does not come close.
The only player that comes close, is the Denon A1 that costs 9 times the price of the BDP-83.
Those are the facts, with no slant, no bias, and no preference.

Quote:


Much of the feature-set really aren't things that many need in one box though.

Apparently it meets the needs of lots of people though, hence the thousands of players sold.
Of course everyone does not need a BDP-83, as a lot of people have lesser needs.
This is why there are many different players on the market, and why they all sell some amount to some people.

Quote:


Assuming the video processing in the player is at least capable, I'd propose that the vast majority couldn't actually see much (if any) differences in "upconversion" with actual programming in a blind test.

You may be right about that for the majority of the general public, with exception to playing optical media that is compatible with most players.
However, that is not the point of creating such a product as the BDP-83 is, and one of the reasons why it does not sell at Best Buy, or Wal-mart, ect...
The player caters to many niche markets, including aspiring a/v enthusiasts who can not afford the high end players that offer very little performance that can rival what the BDP-83 offers.
In other words, the majority of BDP-83 owners can tell the difference in advanced upconversion and superior deinterlacing, and is one of the reasons why they buy the player.

Quote:


Another wild card is streaming capability which doesn't seem to get discussed much here, but I suspect will continue to become increasingly more popular.

I agree that it will become more popular. However I also agree with some of the other assessments with regard to the low quality and/or low selection, ect... of what something like Netflix offers.
I personally like the concept of it myself, and as the technology grows, it will become even more popular.
OPPO has already implemented some experimental features in the BDP-83 with DNLA compatiblity as well as the BluTV functionality.
Here we see once again OPPO giving more to their customers, even after the player has been paid for.
post #3429 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

In other words, the majority of BDP-83 owners can tell the difference in advanced upconversion and superior deinterlacing, and is one of the reasons why they buy the player.

Fair enough.
post #3430 of 3869
I bought an LG 370 for the family for Christmas (and confiscated the BDP-83SE soley for my music room) The LG is a nice players and I bought it specifically because it ties into our Netflix account AND it was very inexpensive on sale. But in no meaningful way is it comparable to the Oppo. Different products, different price points, different expectations, different applications. Different and not comparable. It's like saying a Kia is comparable to a Mercedes because they both provide transportation. Sure...

Fanboy, er Styln
post #3431 of 3869
hi
i am contemplating between the ps3 slim and oppo bdp 83
i have a dedicated home theatre room
i believe the audio (cd) playback,up conversion sacd feature etc are much better in the oppo
but for all that i have oppo 981 hd
so i will be using the player strictly for BD playback
now the question is how is the pq and sq (which is also important to me) of BD of these players(via hdmi)
the screen size is 150"

ps3 i can do occasional gaming and is cheaper than the oppo but at the same time i dont want to compromise on the pq/sq to a large extent

what do u guys suggest
equipment used will be
panny ax200
marantz sr 6003

regards
post #3432 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by amitsingh View Post

hi
i am contemplating between the ps3 slim and oppo bdp 83
i have a dedicated home theatre room
i believe the audio (cd) playback,up conversion sacd feature etc are much better in the oppo
but for all that i have oppo 981 hd
so i will be using the player strictly for BD playback
now the question is how is the pq and sq (which is also important to me) of BD of these players(via hdmi)
the screen size is 150"

ps3 i can do occasional gaming and is cheaper than the oppo but at the same time i dont want to compromise on the pq/sq to a large extent

what do u guys suggest
equipment used will be
panny ax200
marantz sr 6003

regards

Sell the 981 and buy the BDP-83.
post #3433 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

Sell the 981 and buy the BDP-83.

tried that i live in india and no buyers here
post #3434 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by amitsingh View Post

so i will be using the player strictly for BD playback
now the question is how is the pq and sq (which is also important to me) of BD of these players(via hdmi)
the screen size is 150"

Some general background here: Is the Blu-ray picture quality of this player amazingly better than any other player?

-Bill
post #3435 of 3869
thanks bill
thats was very informative
i know oppo is great player but my main concern is the comparison of the two player BD playback (PQ/SQ)
post #3436 of 3869
I just wonder how much of this is just purely subjective ?

I read a review / test by some Italian group around here (google translation) a few days ago, which came to a different conclusion.

They measured the signal and data output on the other end of a HDMI cable, connected directly to the players involved (tricky because of HDCP). Using some quite sophisticated equipment, they measured the PQ difference between each and every pair of units tested. Surprisingly (or not) the digital signal contents (and resolution of the signal) delivered by the players where all the same (its just pure data), as long as they used the HDMI output as a basis. Differences where apparent, when using analog outputs though...
post #3437 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

I just wonder how much of this is just purely subjective ?

I read a review / test by some Italian group around here (google translation) a few days ago, which came to a different conclusion.

They measured the signal and data output on the other end of a HDMI cable, connected directly to the players involved (tricky because of HDCP). Using some quite sophisticated equipment, they measured the PQ difference between each and every pair of units tested. Surprisingly (or not) the digital signal contents (and resolution of the signal) delivered by the players where all the same (its just pure data), as long as they used the HDMI output as a basis. Differences where apparent, when using analog outputs though...

I don't know about their testing, but that is what we've been saying. That's what the FAQ says: that for BR playback image quality is very similar across all players. That is the forum consensus and it agrees with theory.

I wonder how they got around HDCP? And I doubt if different players produce bit-for-bit identical results for video.

-Bill
post #3438 of 3869
Getting around HDCP has been the tricky part for sure, as they explained...
I would be quite surprised, if any digital data would get lost in the transfer. This would rather point to a defective chip or design, wouldn't it ?

This is all about digital data, getting each and every bit unaltered to the other side or this wouldn't make sense at all. We don't talk about analog signals with their corresponding problems, do we ? No DA or AD converters, filters, analog drivers etc.

Differences might come up at the receivers end, where all sorts of filtration, separation, decoding, conversion etc. takes place, but at the (digital) source side ?



Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

I don't know about their testing, but that is what we've been saying. That's what the FAQ says: that for BR playback image quality is very similar across all players. That is the forum consensus and it agrees with theory.

I wonder how they got around HDCP? And I doubt if different players produce bit-for-bit identical results for video.

-Bill
post #3439 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

Getting around HDCP has been the tricky part for sure, as they explained...
I would be quite surprised, if any digital data would get lost in the transfer. This would rather point to a defective chip or design, wouldn't it ?

This is all about digital data, getting each and every bit unaltered to the other side or this wouldn't make sense at all. We don't talk about analog signals with their corresponding problems, do we ? No DA or AD converters, filters, analog drivers etc.

Players use different chips. I doubt if everyone decodes or does chroma upsampling the same way. I also suspect some players to extra video processing: edge enhancement. And what about the word length precision of the math? Not everyone is the same.

Again, I don't think this makes much of a difference in picture quality, but that different players would produce bit-identical results: that is startling.

-Bill
post #3440 of 3869
Well, on the HDMI side it should be the same, shouldn't it, because the source data formats are strongly specified and standardized.

Chroma upsampling on an unaltered digital stream (HDMI) ?
This is an unaltered data stream directly from the source: no edge enhancement, no up conversion, no scaling, nothing... pure, unaltered digital data.
It's like reading from your hard disk, isn't it and putting this on a HDMI connection...
Everything else happens afterwards.

They used unaltered data, passed through...

Quote:
Originally Posted by wmcclain View Post

Players use different chips. I doubt if everyone decodes or does chroma upsampling the same way. I also suspect some players to extra video processing: edge enhancement. And what about the word length precision of the math? Not everyone is the same.

Again, I don't think this makes much of a difference in picture quality, but that different players would produce bit-identical results: that is startling.

-Bill
post #3441 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

Well, on the HDMI side it should be the same, shouldn't it, because the source data formats are strongly specified and standardized.

Chroma upsampling on an unaltered digital stream (HDMI) ?
This is an unaltered data stream directly from the source: no edge enhancement, no up conversion, no scaling, nothing... pure, unaltered digital data.
It's like reading from your hard disk, isn't it and putting this on a HDMI connection...
Everything else happens afterwards.

They used unaltered data, passed through...

Video data on Blu-ray is stored as YCbCr 4:2:0, just like DVD. HDMI doesn't carry that format, there is no standard for it. So at minimum the video must be chroma upsampled to 4:2:2 or 4:4:4. New color information is created. Are you sure every player does it the same way? I'm not. Even a minor pixel difference, level 168 vs 167 in one spot, means the test fails identity, though negligible in effect.

Pure unaltered digital data: do you know for certain what every player is doing internally? If so you are the only one.

-Bill
post #3442 of 3869
Please disregard- wmcclain answered this above before I posted my question!


Quote:
Originally Posted by gurkey View Post

..... Chroma upsampling on an unaltered digital stream (HDMI) ? .....

I hesitate to jump in as I am not the expert, but wanted to make sure I am understanding things correctly.

I thought the raw data stored on a BR disc has to be interpolated to be used, you can't use the raw data per se. There was something about the disc storing data at less than (4,2,2) for example.

If so, is the interpolation I referred to the same as chroma upsampling?

Thanks
Bruce
post #3443 of 3869
And even in the 83's Source Direct output, there's still some color processing going on as I recall.
post #3444 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by prepress View Post

And even in the 83's Source Direct output, there's still some color processing going on as I recall.

True.

Color space conversion is available.

The brightness, contrast, and saturation controls are available, but I don't know what processing occurs if you leave them at 0.

-Bill
post #3445 of 3869
Has anyone heard anything more about the early January announcement of a new Oppo BD Player?

Thanks.
post #3446 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael sutherli View Post

Has anyone heard anything more about the early January announcement of a new Oppo BD Player?

Thanks.

Follow whats known in this thread.
post #3447 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnAV View Post

Follow whats known in this thread.

Hey, thanks. I should have thought of looking for a thread like that. I guess that's what happens when you are secretly reading this thread instead of working.
post #3448 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

It is true that the Oppo offers a lot of features at a certain price point. Hence for those who need such an all in one machine, it is attractive. But if the purpose is to play BR solely, there are cheaper options which are not too shabby. My little shootout was such a test to help others understand that this point.

And in the world of diminishing returns, the next step up to the Denon costs a lot more, but does yield real benefits. Its a matter of whether the buyer wishes to or can afford such a player.

Cheers

No I don't own one but if BR playback is the main purpose and I feel Oppo owners probably utilize that the "most" with the player besides anyway so then why not? Some of the other alternatives in this specific test aren't cheaper and the ones that are aren't worlds less and the Oppo offers other features besides.
post #3449 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by petetherock View Post

It is true that the Oppo offers a lot of features at a certain price point. Hence for those who need such an all in one machine, it is attractive. But if the purpose is to play BR solely, there are cheaper options which are not too shabby. My little shootout was such a test to help others understand that this point.

And in the world of diminishing returns, the next step up to the Denon costs a lot more, but does yield real benefits. Its a matter of whether the buyer wishes to or can afford such a player.

Cheers

Marantz has a universal player in between the Denon and the Oppo price-wise, but I believe it's still only half the Denon's cost. And I don't know if it sounds as good as the big Denon does via analog. As someone who prefers dedicated players for each function I leave my SACD/CD to a dedicated machine. My Oppo (and the Pioneer 09 it backs up) are in my setup for PQ; the Pioneer has killer SQ for video too. I wouldn't want such a big all-in-one machine like the Denon or the even more expensive big Marantz.
post #3450 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by amitsingh View Post

thanks bill
thats was very informative
i know oppo is great player but my main concern is the comparison of the two player BD playback (PQ/SQ)

Amit,

There won't be a difference between AQ/PQ through HDMI for BD. Oppo will be better for DVD upconversion, if that's what you are looking for. If you want strictly BD, then PS3 offers a lot more (gaming, network streaming etc) and is the only upgradable player for 3D at the moment.

Also, later on if you want to sell, PS3 will have better chances of selling than Oppo in India.
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