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Oppo BDP-83 or 83SE versus other blu ray players thread - Page 3

post #61 of 3869
Ok guys , I am finished with my testing of the Oppo BDP-83 vs my Pioneer BDP-51FD

PQ of 1080/24p blu-rays--- I give them a tie --BDP-83 A+ , BDP-51FD A+ , both do a reference quality job.

SD-dvd playback & Upconversion---Both players do a good job in this department , however the Oppo does a better job, id say on average it is 4.5-8% better.

Speed---The Oppo wins here, the Oppo has to be the fastest player available.
(it does everything fast) If this is important to you get an Oppo you
will love its speed.


Am I gonna buy an Oppo? I am still not sure yet but the upcoming firmware for the 51 could be the deciding factor.
post #62 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

I said what it was in my post above , and there is a picture of it as well.


Pioneer Elite PRO-151FD professionally calibrated plasma HDTV

If you are not aware of this display , it is a 60" , my eye to screen distance is 9' , I measured it with a tape measure so it is exact.

Many believe the 9th Generation Pioneer Kuros (mine is a 9g) are the best displays that have ever been made.

All true, but that raises some questions. This type display has a lot of image processing that could tend to blunt the differences between players. I hope you have as much of that type stuff shut off when comparing as possible.
post #63 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

I said what it was in my post above , and there is a picture of it as well.


Pioneer Elite PRO-151FD professionally calibrated plasma HDTV

If you are not aware of this display , it is a 60" , my eye to screen distance is 9' , I measured it with a tape measure so it is exact.

Many believe the 9th Generation Pioneer Kuros (mine is a 9g) are the best displays that have ever been made.



Sweet! I wish I could afford one of those... sometime in my life .

So with the tv doing bit for bit (1:1) and no scaling, you think that the upconversion and deinterlacing between the Pioneer 51 and the OPPO -83 are equal???
The scaling I can understand, but deinterlacing from the -83 should be superior. Maybe not night and day in most cases, but with dvds containing odd cadences, bad edits and the like should be out doing the -51.
post #64 of 3869
One more:

Looks and build--- Both seem well built , both look decent but the winner is the Pioneer, it is a bit heavier and looks better , + it matches my pro-151.

post #65 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

Sweet! I wish I could afford one of those... sometime in my life .

So with the tv doing bit for bit (1:1) and no scaling, you think that the upconversion and deinterlacing between the Pioneer 51 and the OPPO -83 are equal???
The scaling I can understand, but deinterlacing from the -83 should be superior. Maybe not night and day in most cases, but with dvds containing odd cadences, bad edits and the like should be out doing the -51.

Well when I say SD I am talking about deinterlacing as well, yes the 83 does a better job, as I said its 4.5-8% better in most cases, id say 10% at the mosts.
post #66 of 3869
James; thank you for your observations. Too bad the Oppo's ''innards'' couldn't be placed into that of the pioneer and than mark the price down to $266!!!:
post #67 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

All true, but that raises some questions. This type display has a lot of image processing that could tend to blunt the differences between players. I hope you have as much of that type stuff shut off when comparing as possible.

Well the 151s native resolution is 1080p , if you send it 480i its going to upconvert it to 1080p.
I was testing the players so I always sent my display 1080p , the display cannot upconvert it any further.
post #68 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by abba1 View Post

James; thank you for your observations. Too bad the Oppo's ''innards'' couldn't be placed into that of the pioneer and than mark the price down to $266!!!:

If I could do that I would not do it, why ? Well let me add something else....sometimes the 51FDs PQ is more pleasing to the eye, then sometimes the Oppos is more pleasing. Of course I am only talking about SD material.

If your really unsure which one you want then just buy em both, but if your funds are tight , just get a 51FD , you will be very happy with it.

These are both great BD players .
post #69 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

Well the 151s native resolution is 1080p , if you send it 480i its going to upconvert it to 1080p.
I was testing the players so I always sent my display 1080p , the display cannot upconvert it any further.

I wasn't talking about scaling, there's a boatload of image processing going on besides scaling in any new display. I'd hope that most of it was turned off by your professional calibrator. Auto picture controls, dynamic this and that, auto gamma controls and the list goes on. Things that make a picture pop, but don't always have a positive effect on actual detail.
post #70 of 3869
Most calibrators are going to run those displays in Pure mode which eliminates most of that sort of thing.
--Bob
post #71 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

I wasn't talking about scaling, there's a boatload of image processing going on besides scaling in any new display. I'd hope that most of it was turned off by your professional calibrator. Auto picture controls, dynamic this and that, auto gamma controls and the list goes on. Things that make a picture pop, but don't always have a positive effect on actual detail.


There is a room light sensor and color sensor on the display, however both are off for ISF Day and Night.

THere is nothing happening automatically.
post #72 of 3869
I'm using a 151fd as well and it's ISF calibrated by Jeff Meier....he's an established individual around avsforum especially for calibrating pio elite displays....to my knowledge, almost all ISF calibrations shun any kind of image enhancements you speak of (as do the owners that ask for ISF calibrations). You're going to be trying to achieve the most accurate representation of the source as possible. Being an owner of the 983h, I have high hopes in the bdp-83 and am patiently waiting for this unit. Thus far from what I see, most likely the ps3 will be retired in the next 2 months (estimate maybe) when the player comes to the general public release. I agree the BDP-51FD would look nice on my component stand but after playing with it, I think I would miss the speed of my ps3 too much. With the oppo, this is not going to be a problem from what I'm reading on user feedback and the upconversion capabilities being the same as the 983h is just icing on the cake.
post #73 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

I have only compared two channel analogue output (i bitstream to onkyo 906 for dvd/bds, but play cd two channel into onkyo).

I believe two channel audio (onkyo on direct or pure) sounds better from the wolfson dacs in the pioneer. the acoustics in my room aren' perfect and my polk towers are not the highest end speakers...this is a tough call, but i would subjectively give the nod to the pio.


Very interesting.

Thanks!!
post #74 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick P View Post

bakerwi,

Before selling your 51FD did you get a chance to compare the 7.1 analog audio between the 2 players? I'm also using 7.1 analog to a Denon 3802 and was curious how the Oppo stacked-up against the Pioneer.

I'm not a big audio guy, but I didn't hear any discernable difference between the 2 players. Others have spoken very highly of Oppo's analog section.
post #75 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by bakerwi View Post

I'm not a big audio guy, but I didn't hear any discernable difference between the 2 players. Others have spoken very highly of Oppo's analog section.

Thanks for the reply.
post #76 of 3869
Thread Starter 
Obviously firmware updates are critical to the strength of a blu ray player with the heavily encrypted and ever-evolving discs that give many players issues. Oppo released a new firmware for the 83 a day ago or so. They actually sent me an email to notify me, which was a nice touch - then again it's a small owner pool at the moment.

I wanted to compare the firmware update process of my players:

Panasonic DMP BD55K - downloadable via the internet. Reasonably quick and autonotification feature is nice for those of us without the time to constantly check the panny website. We have had two updates (1.6 and 1.7) since I owned it and found the process for each is quick and easy.

Pioneer BDP 51FD - as a profile 1.1 player only, the 51 lacks an ethernet jack and firmware is updated via a burned cd or dvd. you can ask pioneer to send you one or burn one yourself. When you factor in the time to burn the cd, it is the slowest, but easy to update. There have been no firmware updates in the time i have owned it (bought it as soon as 1.25a arrived). Firmware updates have been a bone of contention with Pioneer owners - in large part because of the repeatedly delayed implementation of dts hd ma decoding and speed optimization). The latest expected date of 3/30 was recently delayed to possibly June.

Samsung BDP-2550 - similar to the panny, the smasung is connected to the interent and has an automatic notification feature. I am unsure when it was last updated, but before Christmas. Downloads are slow and unreliable. Numerous times I have been unable to connect to the server.

Oppo BDP 83 - I was very impressed with the download speed and load speed of the firmware update done last night via the internet. I would estimate it was completed in less than 2 minutes. The oppo has an autonotification feature, but unlike the panny and samsung, it can be turned off.
post #77 of 3869
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

Well when I say SD I am talking about deinterlacing as well, yes the 83 does a better job, as I said its 4.5-8% better in most cases, id say 10% at the mosts.

For us plebes with lcds, I will try to quantify the differences in sd dvd upscaling amongst my players. I have a 52" 120hz sony lcd W series in one room and a 46" 120hz sony lcd z series in another. A wife who leaves Oprah paused midafternoon keeps me out of the plasma world.

Panasonic DMP BD55K: 6.5 - DVD upconversion is good, but I consistently find the appearance of jaggies even in good dvd transfers. Color accuracy is good and detail is pretty good, but the jaggies annoy me. Long story short, the panny does a good job, but struggles with some deinterlacing. It is worth mentioning that the 55/35/80/60 can force 24fps on sd dvds.

Samsung BDP 2550: 8 - Reon chip is great. My onkyo hd dvd player might have a hair better implementation than the sammy, but i think the samsung does a wonderful job of bringing out details. I have not had any issues with deinterlacing with the Samsung. It is worth mentioning that the 25X0 cannot force 24fps on sd dvds.

Pioneer BDP 51FD: 8 - Pioneer is terrific at upconversion and was my choice for most sd dvds prior to the arrival of the oppo. Colors are rich, but accurate and motion is smooth. It is worth mentioning that the 51 cannot force 24fps on sd dvds.

Oppo BDP 83: 9 - Oppo is terrific and brings the smooth motion of the Pioneer and the sharpness of the Samsung. Lipsynch appears to have been fixed by latest firmware. It is worth mentioning that the 83 can force 24fps on sd dvds.

One of my favorite films is Last of the Mohicans, which is frankly not the best dvd transfer. In an early scene where the town is listening to a brit soldier recruit the milita, there is a lot of movement, color and great panning shots that really show imperfections. Using the Panasonic as the baseline, there was a lot of noise. The samsung helped clean up some of the faces and details, but suffered a bit when the folks play lacrosse. The pioneer looked good, but I was really impressed by the oppo in bringing out new detail and keep motion smooth and clean.

Just my two cents - and hope this helps us plebes with lcds.
post #78 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

Well when I say SD I am talking about deinterlacing as well, yes the 83 does a better job, as I said its 4.5-8% better in most cases, id say 10% at the mosts.

Would it be safe to assume that the differences between these two players on Interlaced BD sources is comparable to the differences on SD-DVD?

Thanks
Bruce
post #79 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by BruceOmega View Post

Would it be safe to assume that the differences between these two players on Interlaced BD sources is comparable to the differences on SD-DVD?

Thanks
Bruce


I would say yes. The Oppo does scaling and deinterlacing better.

My numbers keep changing as I spend more time with the Oppo, as of now ive gotta say the Oppo's scaling and deinterlacing is 15% better than the Pioneer BDP-51FD.

They are both good players and I feel that 15% is only gonna be appreciated by videophiles, the hardcore guys might be able to see a 20% improvment .

Both players are good enough for my standards. The Oppo's speed is nice and it will be missed but I will get by just fine without it, at this point there is a 85% chance that I will not buy this Oppo. Oppo did a fine job here and they have an excellent player.It has to be the fastest player out there and PQ wise it is better than most others.
post #80 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

I would say yes. The Oppo does scaling and deinterlacing better.

My numbers keep changing as I spend more time with the Oppo, as of now ive gotta say the Oppo's scaling and deinterlacing is 15% better than the Pioneer BDP-51FD.

They are both good players and I feel that 15% is only gonna be appreciated by videophiles, the hardcore guys might be able to see a 20% improvment .

Nobody else has bit on this yet, so I will.

How do you come up with these numbers? 4.5%, 15%, ???

But essentially what you are saying is that if the Oppo had "Pioneer" on the front you would buy it. Does that about sum things up? In video terms, a 15% improvement in quality is pretty large and most anyone in the know would go for that. Maybe if you spend more time with the Oppo your number will increase some more?
post #81 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

...How do you come up with these numbers? 4.5%, 15%, ???....

Inquiring minds want to know! Is this just a mental note to make a comparison? It seems so.
post #82 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

Nobody else has bit on this yet, so I will.

How do you come up with these numbers? 4.5%, 15%, ???

I was just reading this post and going to ask the same question. Putting percentages on this seems silly and very subjective.
post #83 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by James W. Johnson View Post

They are both good players and I feel that 15% is only gonna be appreciated by videophiles, the hardcore guys might be able to see a 20% improvment .

Care to post a couple of images so the differences can be seen? Before you say slight differences can't be captured here are two I took that reflect very slight image differences made by a setting adjustment.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post15846134

It would be nice to see how difference they really are...
post #84 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by Geof View Post

I was just reading this post and going to ask the same question. Putting percentages on this seems silly and very subjective.

Well, to translate to the 1-10 scale that most folks use. If the Oppo was a 9, that 15% would make the Pioneer a 7.6. That's a difference most people would want and expect to pay a lot more for. But yes, it's all subjective unless you're using test results that are repeatable.
post #85 of 3869
Quote:
Originally Posted by rdgrimes View Post

Well, to translate to the 1-10 scale that most folks use. If the Oppo was a 9, that 15% would make the Pioneer a 7.6.

To my thinking such numbers are silly. If you go along with 24p is the same with both players and the fact it's a Blu-ray player (at heart) any differences come down to what one wants outside of Blu-ray playback which could certainly be the opposite of someone else.
post #86 of 3869
Hello,
I am totally lost on the BDP-51 not being a good DVD player discussion. To score an 86 on the Secrets DVD Benchmark is truly a stellar result. I realize the Hypeoo (DV-983) scored higher. But, it is not by a huge amount 86 versus 100. Again, there are 8000 dollar purpose built players that scored worse than the 51 with SD. Funny, the 15% discussion jives almost perfectly with the benchmark results. Assuming the 83 has identical DVD performance.
Cheers,
AD
post #87 of 3869
The players are so much more than "Blu-ray 1080/24" though. If that was all we were talking about, it would be much more simple.

I agree with rdgrimes though, a 15% difference is actually pretty substancial. Many people with high end systems are known to spend undreds (thousands?) more for one product for far less performance increases.
Even on my middle_end setup, a 15% difference in PQ is going to be a big difference.

What Mr. Johnson seems to be portraying here, is that he is doing a professional review/comparison. However, he keeps waffling back and forth on the numbers. This is not consistant with what a professional review entails.
post #88 of 3869
Audiodork, you make a good point as well, However, I think a lot of people would disagree with you that the difference between 86 and 100 on the "Benchmark" is not a huge amount. What needs to be looked at is not just the score, but WHY the score is what it is.
post #89 of 3869
Hello,
The only aspects that the 51 failed on the Benchmark are incorrect progressive flags, noise reduction, and layer change. http://www.hometheaterhifi.com/blu-r...k.html?start=3
Cheers,
AD
post #90 of 3869
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Smarty-pants View Post

The players are so much more than "Blu-ray 1080/24" though. If that was all we were talking about, it would be much more simple.

I agree with rdgrimes though, a 15% difference is actually pretty substancial. Many people with high end systems are known to spend undreds (thousands?) more for one product for far less performance increases.
Even on my middle_end setup, a 15% difference in PQ is going to be a big difference.

What Mr. Johnson seems to be portraying here, is that he is doing a professional review/comparison. However, he keeps waffling back and forth on the numbers. This is not consistant with what a professional review entails.

with a signature of pioneer elitist bastard, i highly doubt there is anything professional about his impending review! I think it's more of a "can I justify the 51 relative to the oppo" review.
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