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120hz effects on a 60hz LCD

post #1 of 15
4/12/09 at 10:40am
Thread Starter 
Well I've been searching long and hard to find a video playback program that will provide me with motion enhancement that works and looks good for my PC to playback movies on my 60hz 32XBR6

the search is over.

Corel WinDVD Plus 9

it has this All2HD feature that cleans up the image and best of all has a 2 mode motion enhancement and it WORKS!!

Best Quality mode smooths everything completely and makes movies have a mild soap opera effect.

Cinematic Look does much the same but does not smooth camera pans making it look more like film alot of the time.


The downside is this player will only let you use this mode on DVD's and I think Blu-Ray discs but I cannot test BD playback because i do not have a PC BD drive yet but might get one now that i found out about this app. oh and you cannot run multiple displays and turn this feature on witch is pretty annoying

though this does prove that you do not need 120hz refresh rate to get the same effect as a 120hz TV you just need a program that can do the processing properly and it will achieve the same effect on any display.

other thing to note is the program Crystal Player has a motion enhancer that is less restrictive than WinDVD's and will work on anything any time you want but it introduces tons of artifacts and glitches into the picture and is just bad to watch rendering it useless
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post #2 of 15
4/12/09 at 10:45am
Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

other thing to note is the program Crystal Player has a motion enhancer that is less restrictive than WinDVD's and will work on anything any time you want but it introduces tons of artifacts and glitches into the picture and is just bad to watch rendering it useless

Hehehe that's punny
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post #3 of 15
4/12/09 at 10:46am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sharkcohen View Post

Hehehe that's punny

haha yeah I didn't even realize the pun there when i typed it
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post #4 of 15
4/12/09 at 11:51am
Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

Well I've been searching long and hard to find a video playback program that will provide me with motion enhancement that works and looks good for my PC to playback movies on my 60hz 32XBR6

the search is over.

What's wrong with the motion enhancer that's already built into your TV?
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post #5 of 15
4/12/09 at 12:27pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by meh :-| View Post

What's wrong with the motion enhancer that's already built into your TV?

Cinemotion? its not a motion enhancer its a reverse 3:2 pulldown and makes judder worse.

I've never seen a 60hz TV that has a motion enhancer they always put them on 120hz TV's but after seeing that WinDVD can do it just the same as 120hz TV's proving the point that 120hz is not even needed to produce the same effect a PC with this software achieves the same thing at 60hz
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post #6 of 15
4/12/09 at 12:42pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

Cinemotion? its not a motion enhancer its a reverse 3:2 pulldown and makes judder worse.

I've never seen a 60hz TV that has a motion enhancer they always put them on 120hz TV's but after seeing that WinDVD can do it just the same as 120hz TV's proving the point that 120hz is not even needed to produce the same effect a PC with this software achieves the same thing at 60hz

Yea but you missing the point of a 120hz TV. It's main purpose was to have even pulldown for every source that is out which is 5:5 pulldown for 24hz films and 2:2 pulldown for 60hz stuff which is everything else. It was to reduce the judder caused from uneven 2:3 pulldown while still being even for 60hz video.

So you still have to deal with 2:3 pulldown on your TV. The frame interpolation which is what your talking about is just a bonus on 120hz TVs. Instead people confused it as being 120hz and think that was the point of it.

Well anyways good find on that program maybe PC owners with regular monitors can now experience the soap opera effect and see if they like it or not.

Also so far it seems its just better to leave the player to do the 2:3 pulldown than on a TV sadly.
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post #7 of 15
4/12/09 at 12:47pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by felonyr301 View Post

Yea but you missing the point of a 120hz TV. It's main purpose was to have even pulldown for every source that is out which is 5:5 pulldown for 24hz films and 2:2 pulldown for 60hz stuff which is everything else. It was to reduce the judder caused from uneven 2:3 pulldown while still being even for 60hz video.

So you still have to deal with 2:3 pulldown on your TV. The frame interpolation which is what your talking about is just a bonus on 120hz TVs. Instead people confused it as being 120hz and think that was the point of it.

Well anyways good find on that program maybe PC owners with regular monitors can now experience the soap opera effect and see if they like it or not.

this video player is taking out the judder there is no sign of it in the best quality mode. proving that you do not even need 120hz to achieve this. i've seen AMP and motionflow in action at stores on blu-ray movies I know what it looks like and this program does an incredible job of doing the same thing on any TV/monitor.

The problem is it will only work on DVD's and possibly BD discs. any other video file type has it disabled

Edit: I just got my 360 HD-DVD up and working with my PC and it DOES NOT allow you to turn on this feature on HD-DVD's this is somewhat disappointing I need to find out of BD's will work.
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post #8 of 15
4/12/09 at 3:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by frito View Post

Cinemotion? its not a motion enhancer its a reverse 3:2 pulldown and makes judder worse.

I've never seen a 60hz TV that has a motion enhancer they always put them on 120hz TV's but after seeing that WinDVD can do it just the same as 120hz TV's proving the point that 120hz is not even needed to produce the same effect a PC with this software achieves the same thing at 60hz

Perhaps the reason motionflow isn't working on your TV is because it's disabled when you use it as a PC monitor.
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post #9 of 15
4/12/09 at 4:22pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by meh :-| View Post

Perhaps the reason motionflow isn't working on your TV is because it's disabled when you use it as a PC monitor.

it is disabled in photo mode and that is the mode i use it with my PC on otherwise no, it works just fine in whatever it does I've already stated that it does nothing good to videos in the other thread that none of my video devices PC XB360 PS3 on any mode in any setup ever benefit from cinemotion, at best it does nothing at worst it makes judder even more apparent and introduces judder where there was NONE before. its complete garbage on my TV at least

perhaps your V4100 is different but i doubt that and think you should honestly watch a movie on your 40xbr6 with motionflow and compare that to what your V4100 does with the same movie, it can't be anywhere near the same.
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post #10 of 15
4/12/09 at 6:22pm
As I understand it, 120hz is more to reduce motion blur than it is to reduce judder. The frame interpolation (motionflow on Sony tv's) and cinemotion are the features that are designed to reduce judder. The fact that 120hz is divisible by 60 and 24 is the reason why all of these features meld together so smoothly. You can reduce judder just fine on a 60hz tv but you would still have the motion blur. Motion blur is very slight on 60hz TV's like yours Frito but it is all but non existent on 120hz tv's.

To sum up, 120hz reduces motion blur. Motion enhancer and cinemotion reduce judder. 120hz gives more headroom to add in additional interpolated frames too, therefore increasing the ability to smooth out the judder. And just as a reference if I turn off Motionflow and cinemotion on my 120hz TV the judder is still there.
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post #11 of 15
4/12/09 at 7:26pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gmaxx View Post

As I understand it, 120hz is more to reduce motion blur than it is to reduce judder. The frame interpolation (motionflow on Sony tv's) and cinemotion are the features that are designed to reduce judder. The fact that 120hz is divisible by 60 and 24 is the reason why all of these features meld together so smoothly. You can reduce judder just fine on a 60hz tv but you would still have the motion blur. Motion blur is very slight on 60hz TV's like yours Frito but it is all but non existent on 120hz tv's.

To sum up, 120hz reduces motion blur. Motion enhancer and cinemotion reduce judder. 120hz gives more headroom to add in additional interpolated frames too, therefore increasing the ability smooth out the judder. And just as a reference if I turn off Motionflow and cinemotion on my 120hz TV the judder is still there.

Oh yeah i know this I'm just pointing out what i've thought was possible and that is to get video playback that is very close to if not the same to most people as a 120hz TV with motion enhancers you do not need a 120hz refresh rate or a 5:5 pull down.

and for anybody out there using a HTPC or PC to watch movies they have an option for video playback now that does a great job with its motion enhancement.
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post #12 of 15
4/17/09 at 4:49pm
Quote:


As I understand it, 120hz is more to reduce motion blur than it is to reduce judder. The frame interpolation (motionflow on Sony tv's) and cinemotion are the features that are designed to reduce judder. The fact that 120hz is divisible by 60 and 24 is the reason why all of these features meld together so smoothly. You can reduce judder just fine on a 60hz tv but you would still have the motion blur. Motion blur is very slight on 60hz TV's like yours Frito but it is all but non existent on 120hz tv's.

To sum up, 120hz reduces motion blur. Motion enhancer and cinemotion reduce judder. 120hz gives more headroom to add in additional interpolated frames too, therefore increasing the ability to smooth out the judder. And just as a reference if I turn off Motionflow and cinemotion on my 120hz TV the judder is still there.

This is wrong. The 5:5 pulldown effect on 120hz tvs (the newer ones), is to reduce judder, NOT motion blur. The motion blur is because of the slow response times of LCDs and also due to eye tracking because of the inherent technology in LCDs themselve's, as the pixel in an LCD can remain lit for too long. Even on LCDs with very low response times, there will still be some blur.

120hz in no way fixes this, but the motin interpolation on these tvs can create the illusion that it is fixed by interpolating between frames. Many plasmas, even some VERY well regarded ones, still must do 3:2 pulldown and yet they produce better quality motion than any 120hz lcd doing 5:5 pulldown.

The evenly divisible number is NOT the main benefit of 120hz tvs, it's just a nice bonus that most of the newer 120hz lcds now have. Most of the kings of motion quality (plasma) all do 3:2 pulldown with no option to avoid it. Even on the well regarded panny z800 which does have a 48hz mode, the mode causes flickering and is basically unuseable, yet the tv gets great reviews and praise for what it can do with 3:2 pulldown, even if the 3:2 pulldown does produce a slight judder, and it still blows away any 120hz lcd for overall motion quality. And let's not forget that most of the early 120hz LCDs didn't even do 5:5 pulldown, but would instead do 3:2 pulldown to 60hz and then double it. So yeah!

The whole 5:5 pulldown thing isn't NEARLY as big a deal as people think it is. Most of the "benefits" from 120hz lcds come from the motion enhancement technologies. Hell, some people buy 120hz LCDs just for gaming, with no intent to even use 5:5 pulldown since games are not in 24fps, but 30fps or 60fps, so there is no 3:2 pulldown anyway. (Not that I personally feel 120hz is a must for gaming, the interpolation actually annoys me on some tvs but it does seem to improve certain aspects of certain games.) The ability to do 5:5 pulldown is nice, but 90% a marketing ploy and the only chance at actually noticing the benefits from it would be by watching a blueray on a bluray player outputting 24p. For regular DVDs 5:5 pulldown would matter even less, because the lack of definition makes them more forgiving to the eye for potential judder. So good motion enhancement on a 60hz LCD, playing a regular DVD, should infact look pretty much identical to the effect you would get on a 120hz lcd using it's own motion enhancement technologies.

Anyway, with that said. I am very thankful for this thread. Good software for motoin enhancement on a 60hz lcd is infact a very big deal, and does prove that you don't need 120hz to get the biggest benefit of it, because weither you want to admit it or not, the motion enhancement IS the biggest benefit of 120hz LCDS. (Although some people hate it, but those people usually go plasma.)
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post #13 of 15
4/17/09 at 6:40pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MEATBALLS View Post

This is wrong. The 5:5 pulldown effect on 120hz tvs (the newer ones), is to reduce judder, NOT motion blur. The motion blur is because of the slow response times of LCDs and to eye tracking because of the inherent technology in LCDs themselve's, as the pixel in an LCD can remain lit for too long. Even on LCDs with very low response times, there will still be some blur.

120hz in no way fixes this, but the motin interpolation on these tvs can create the illusion that it is fixed by interpolating between frames. Many plasmas, even some VERY well regarded ones, still must do 3:2 pulldown and yet they produce better quality motion than any 120hz lcd doing 5:5 pulldown.

The evenly divisible number is NOT the main benefit of 120hz tvs, it's just a nice bonus that most of the newer 120hz lcds now have. Most of the kings of motion quality (plasma) all do 3:2 pulldown with no option to avoid it. Even on the well regarded panny z800 which does have a 48hz mode, the mode causes flickering and is basically unuseable, yet the tv gets great reviews and praise for what it can do with 3:2 pulldown, even if the 3:2 pulldown does produce a slight judder, and it still blows away any 120hz lcd for overall motion quality. And let's not forget that most of the early 120hz LCDs didn't even do 5:5 pulldown, but would instead do 3:2 pulldown to 60hz and then double it. So yeah!

The whole 5:5 pulldown thing isn't NEARLY as big a deal as people think it is. Most of the "benefits" from 120hz lcds come from the motion enhancement technologies. Hell, some people buy 120hz LCDs just for gaming, with no intent to even use 5:5 pulldown since games are not in 24fps, but 30fps or 60fps, so there is no 3:2 pulldown anyway. (Not that I personally feel 120hz is a must for gaming, the interpolation actually annoys me on some tvs but it does seem to improve certain aspects of certain games.) The ability to do 5:5 pulldown is nice, but 90% a marketing ploy and the only chance at actually noticing the benefits from it would be by watching a blueray on a bluray player outputting 24p. For regular DVDs 5:5 pulldown would matter even less, because the lack of definition makes them more forgiving to the eye for potential judder. So good motion enhancement on a 60hz LCD, playing a regular DVD, should infact look pretty much identical to the effect you would get on a 120hz lcd using it's own motion enhancement technologies.

Anyway, with that said. I am very thankful for this thread. Good software for motoin enhancement on a 60hz lcd is infact a very big deal, and does prove that you don't need 120hz to get the biggest benefit of it, because weither you want to admit it or not, the motion enhancement IS the biggest benefit of 120hz LCDS. (Although some people hate it, but those people usually go plasma.)

I agree completely

also on a side note some that read here often have already heard me say this elsewhere but the 32/37xbr6's cinemotion does have a motion processor but it only works with 60hz sources displaying 24fps content and it works pretty well prolly better than sub par brand's 120hz TV motion enhancers do at smoothing judder but it does not remove it with fast moving camera pans it only reduces it
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post #14 of 15
4/17/09 at 9:18pm
LCD 120Hz refresh in combination with interpolation was developed primarily to reduce the time each frame was displayed on the LCD screen which reduces retinal blurring.

Judder reduction was an afterthought.
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post #15 of 15
4/19/09 at 4:18am
Frito,

I downloaded and and installed Corell Win DVD plus 9.

I am currently using a 46 inch Toshiba 46rf35ou, the super thin bezel model, as my computer monitor.

I tied it on two dvds, STARWARS III, and Ratatouille.

The all2hd setting really does produce a look very similar, if not, identical to the interpolation on 120hz lcds. (Note that some 120hz LCDS do a better job at this than others.)

Anyway, I noticed a huge difference. On "Best Quality" everything is way too smooth and almost creepy looking. On "cinema mode", it's pretty natural looking, but the panning shots not as good as "best quality" and both settings seem to make Ratatouille pop. That movie looked cool on "best quality", as it's a cartoon although there was some artifacting during certain scenes. I showed it to a few people and they all thought it looked like a 120hz tv with motion enhancement on. I would like to see the effects of this program with HD material. I am not sure if it's just the smoothness of 120hz style lcds this program simulates, or the reduction of blur as well. Blur is really hard to spot on this tv, at least for me, so it's kinda hard to tell if it's reduced, but the motoin smoothness is DEFINATELY much like that of 120hz lcds with motion enhancement on while playing a dvd with this program.

I don't know if I will use this all the time, I've never been a huge fan of motion interpolation and even on 120hz LCDs I feel the motion enhancement is way more beneficial for sports than anything else, but it's cool to know it works.
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