or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › DIY Speakers and Subs › Build something comparable to SVS PB13-Ultra?
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Build something comparable to SVS PB13-Ultra? - Page 3

post #61 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

20 inch thick insulation will absorb sound having a wavelength of about 80 inches, no? how is that going to help isolate your subwoofer, which will be belting out 35hz content?

Whats your data source for the 20" thick to 80" wave relationship?
post #62 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by soundemon View Post

Whats your data source for the 20" thick to 80" wave relationship?

1/4 wavelength, which with some back spacing may be 'good enough'.

technically, to approach 100% absorption, you need 1/2 wavelength or more.

search on:

fiberglass 1/4 wavelength absorption

and you will get lots of sources.
post #63 of 99
How about trying to build something that is better than the PB-13 Ultra that is of equal size and costs less? Someone may not want two 18 inch subs lying around.
post #64 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by DL86 View Post

How about trying to build something that is better than the PB-13 Ultra that is of equal size and costs less? Someone may not want two 18 inch subs lying around.

not having read this thread, and because you mention 18"s

1 Maelstrom-X
2 18" PR's
1 big amp of your choice
1 MIC2200
1 box same size

should come in under budget
post #65 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by collin View Post


Anybody have any recommendation for drivers, amps, and designs that could come close to the PB13-Ultra in terms of low-freq extension, size, suitability for both movies/music? I don't think I need that much SPL given the neighbors and family

i just reread the op. it is a little enigmatic that you want pb13u performance, which is characterized, among other things, by its ability to pound out spl, but then you say that you don't need that much spl.

maybe you would be happier with another commercial sub that isn't as expensive. here are some reviews and scores, if you haven't already seen this list:

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...36#post9164136
post #66 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by DL86 View Post

How about trying to build something that is better than the PB-13 Ultra that is of equal size and costs less? Someone may not want two 18 inch subs lying around.

You do know that that is extremely easy to do at even UNDER 1/2 the price!

Someone else posted the Mal-x but I will post the other popular choice...

1. AE15H
2. 2 PRs
3. EP2500
4. Box is the same size as the PB-13

Heck, Give me one of the many 15" to 18" drivers available to us DIYers, give a ported box about the same size as the PB-13 and I will have a better sub (more output/goes deeper).
post #67 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by LTD02 View Post

um, does safe 'n sound do anything to block frequencies below 50hz?

the spec sheet doesn't show results below 125hz.
http://www1.roxul.com/graphics/RX-NA...und-6-4-08.pdf

quiet rock might give you 20db or so sound reduction at 50hz.
http://www.quietsolution.com/QRock545THX_dsheet.pdf

unless you insulate your whole theater, i don't see the advantage to insulating the back wave room.

It will do a great job blocking the rear wave if that wave is NEXT to an important bedroom like mine is but overall you have to sound proof the entire HT room to make it 100% effective.
post #68 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by reecew View Post

Can anyone else give a comparison of the shiva-x to the svs? The box would be slightly smaller and total cost around 1/3 of the svs. But if its not a contender it really doesnt matter in this case i guess. But it still would be nice to know how it compares to one of the most popular sub's out there.


I want to know this as well...been asking all over..so I browsed the commercial forums, its just seems hilarious after reading the SVS thread, all I hear is 'I'm so happy my whole room shakes! My pant flaps are vibrating! So loud my ears bleed! My hair is falling out!" but in this case would the Shiva build be equivalent to an SVS product after the recommended 6.35cf box build?
post #69 of 99
People that post glowing about their commercial subs are entitled to their opinions, for the most part us DIY'ers are not normal compared to the rest of the population.

Of course, with the right amount of money spent in the right places, DIY can slaughter commercial. However, generally making the finished product look as nice as some store bought stuff can cost more than most DIY'ers anticipate, especially a painted finish.
post #70 of 99
Just remember that the ultra13 is a very very well measured driver....

I'm happy as hell with my multiple Sealed Mal-X's and for what I spent on them with the new amps, it would probably been easier to get 3 Ultra13's, but I love the SQ of these sealed subs... and I wouldn't trade them, except for maybe 3 LMS's...
post #71 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by michael hurd View Post

People that post glowing about their commercial subs are entitled to their opinions, for the most part us DIY'ers are not normal compared to the rest of the population.

Of course, with the right amount of money spent in the right places, DIY can slaughter commercial. However, generally making the finished product look as nice as some store bought stuff can cost more than most DIY'ers anticipate, especially a painted finish.

I noticed that most DIY'ers pay close attention to the finer details of things, which obviously is a good thing and what make DIY'ers unique.
post #72 of 99
Did the OP ever decide on an IB or the mal-x's?
post #73 of 99
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by reecew View Post

Did the OP ever decide on an IB or the mal-x's?

sorry, i've been away from the thread... got busy with other stuff.

actually, to clarify IB was never in consideration. I think that was brought up because I didn't specify that I was looking for SVS PB13-Ultra level audio performance as well as approximate size and type of box. So all of the IB type of designs are out.

I haven't yet had time to get on a box designer program to play around with drivers and designs but my impression is that the Mal-X is will probably be too big/too expensive. The design that seems to come closest is the 24" cube with AV15X+2x18" PR design.

However, while the cost of the AV15H at $250 is ok, adding on the two PR's at $125ish each puts the base component costs at about $500 already before the amp and wood. How big would a similar design, but with a slot port have to be?
post #74 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by collin View Post

sorry, i've been away from the thread... got busy with other stuff.

actually, to clarify IB was never in consideration. I think that was brought up because I didn't specify that I was looking for SVS PB13-Ultra level audio performance as well as approximate size and type of box. So all of the IB type of designs are out.

I haven't yet had time to get on a box designer program to play around with drivers and designs but my impression is that the Mal-X is will probably be too big/too expensive. The design that seems to come closest is the 24" cube with AV15X+2x18" PR design.

However, while the cost of the AV15H at $250 is ok, adding on the two PR's at $125ish each puts the base component costs at about $500 already before the amp and wood. How big would a similar design, but with a slot port have to be?

I cant tell you for sure so dont tar and feather me anyone. But from viewing a few builds to get the same port volume with the same box volume with a slot port as a cylinder port you will need a slightly larger box than the cylinder ports would take. Since the structure making the slot port takes up additional space. How does that AV15 and PR's compare to the $400 mal-x in output? also would you use the same amp if either or were chosen? Kevin just posted on another thread once he gets the mal's back in stock he will run a special on them something like 1 mal-x and pr for $550 so not sure what that would make the mal-x by itself on sale. But since your saying the mal-x is getting a little expensive and large why not just build the shiva-x. Alot smaller and great performer. And can be done for around $500 start to finish. Check out the last few pages of the Souther subwoofer GTG thread to see the opinions and output numbers of the shiva-x.

ADD: sorry i was lazy before heres the link http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1127851
post #75 of 99
To get the same tuning as the AV15 with PRs the port length would have to be prohibitively large (10" diameter and 131" long). You could still build a box with a smaller port but that would be a compromise of tuning and potentially run into a problem with chuffing.
post #76 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lop_posse View Post

To get the same tuning as the AV15 with PRs the port length would have to be prohibitively large (10" diameter and 131" long). You could still build a box with a smaller port but that would be a compromise of tuning and potentially run into a problem with chuffing.

I not sure he was talking about porting the PR setup. I think he was wanting to dumb down the Mal-x enclosure someway and achieve the same output. Im not any sub guru or cant get in this guys head. But from the few post of his i have read i think he might be happy with two shiva-x's and an ep1500 or ep2500 each sub can have its own channel on the amp. He wants the cost substantially lower than a golden svs ultra but wants something that can in some way compare to that sub. The dual Shiva-x's will cost him about $650-$700 in drivers and amp and then about $100 for box materials. He will have two medium enclosures he can then play with placement with. And should achieve better in room response than a single mal-x without any EQ for the same price. It may not acheive the same DB as a single mal-x but it will be fairly close if theyre co-located. Both would need some sort of ssf so you cant really account that into the budget comparison. It boils down to what matters most max spl or better in room response.
post #77 of 99
Locally it would cost this

AV15X and 2 PR15-1050 - 389usd
EP2500 - usd392 converted (bought locally)
Driver pickup, box done by DIYer with veneer/beeswaxed or lacquered etc, finished sub delivered to door - usd350
Total = 1181.
Shipping for drivers/PR prob around usd180
Have to use 1 channel of my DCX, else no xover for those doing 2-ch. (so you have to factor that in unless its for LFE)
No warranty for the amp, not sure about drivers

PC13-U - 1329 with 5% disc
Shipping door-to-door = usd230 confirmed
Good 3-years warranty even for overseas.

Its not too shabby. SPL levels are prob around the same and the SVS has variable tuning/sealed, and able to sell off at 60-70% of price very easily. Locally it would be near impossible for the AE driver and EP2500 - $300usd would probably do it though if they are below 2-years (ie looks really new, with receipt). Such things get no love here.
post #78 of 99
Hi guys, I found this old thread and I'm looking for the same thing. I would like a box that's close to the same size or smaller as the PB13 and able to play down around 15hz for movies like transformers, wotw. My budget is somewhere in the 5-600 dollar range. I have two amps that I already own. I can use one or the other to power the sub to keep my cost down. One is a Carvin F1200 rack mount amp that puts out 1200 watts bridged or 400-600 x2. The other amp is an Audiosource amp three that puts out 400 watts bridged.
Main hurdle using one of these amps may be lack of crossover and SSF. I could really use some expert opinion here. I have the ability to build the box, but I don't understand the complexities of box design. I would like to stick with a basic ported design. It doesn't have to be tunable like the PB13, but I would like it to get really low for HT special effects and be way louder than the typical 500.00 pre-built sub box.
post #79 of 99
You might also consider a Passive Radiator sub. For $500 or under, you could get one AE AV15X sub with 2 x 18-2100 PR's in a 6cf box with a tune around 16hz or so. This set-up is easier to build than a ported box, no port noise and would be great for the low bass you want. It will cost you more than a ported box. For around $100, you could build the box. Total cost = $600.
post #80 of 99
I meant the AE AV15H sub which works better in a smaller box than the AV15X model, since you don't want the box to be too big. If you go ported, the box would need to be bigger if you want a tune in the 15-16hz range.
post #81 of 99
Hi Spanish, that may work. How much power do you think would I need?
How big would a box have to be for ported?
How does SVS get their box so small and still go so low?

Thanks, Will
post #82 of 99
You should be good with 1,000 watts or so. I'm running my AV15X sub in a 7cf with two 18-2100 PR's tuned at 16hz with 1,300 watts. The AV15H sub would need a smaller box for the same tuning, somewhere around 5-6cf. The ported box is probably more in the 8-10cf range for a tune that low. Also, the SVS Ultra 13 sub you mentioned is a smaller sub, 13" vs the AE's 15", therefore requiring a smaller box.
post #83 of 99
I have looked at a lot of posts in the last few days and the av15h/PR looks like the best setup so far. There is a good chance I'll go this route.

Back to the original question of building something in line with the PB13 ultra. Is there a high end 13" sub that would allow a box as small as SVS with the comparable output?

Thanks for all the help, I'm new to this but I'd really like to get some bass in my HT.

Will
post #84 of 99
Thread Starter 
glad to see there is still some interest in this topic. i'm the OP but still haven't gotten to building anything since my friend with the full garage woodshop was moving houses (and now his wife is prego so i should get in gear to build this before the baby arrives).

one thing i can't understand is how the SVS gets such a low 20Hz tune with 3 relatively short 3.5" diameter ports in a pretty small box? And plugging one port tunes to 15Hz and two ports tunes to 10Hz? Doesn't this go against what other posters are saying about needing 10" diameter ports, 131 inches long?
post #85 of 99
This is my thinking. I have read rave reviews about the SVS sub. Then I read that a DIY sub should be way better than a production sub for less money. I have yet to find a build on here though that can match the PB-13 in performance with roughly the same size box (about 5cf), and only 750watt power requirement.

It seems there is always a trade off, you can get cheap, efficient, powerful, small with a DIY build, but only two of the choices in one box.

I'm looking at the av15/2PR setup, because it seems to be the smallest I can go at this performance level (6 to 7cf), but it requires double the power of the PB13. This may be okay for me since I already have a pro amp that will work.

The only thing I've found that might be smaller is the dual opposed builds, but it appears they require a lot of power to work well, 2 to 3 times the power the PB13 is using.

I'm going to keep watching this thread for a while before I decide to go the AV15/2pr route. Though I do like your build spanish, that is a good looking box.
post #86 of 99
Thread Starter 
i guess the question raised by notslow's and my postings is:

how can the PB-13 Ultra achieve it's high spl and low freq performance, while having a small box size, one 13" driver, less amp power, and only 3 short small diameter ports? and how does plugging ports lower the tune?

if we can identify how they did this, that would help us figure out how to build something comparable.
post #87 of 99
You can build a box of around 6cf which is only a little bigger than the PB13 sub. You want to use the 18-2100 PR's which will allow you to tune the AV15H sub lower, in the 16-17hz range, compared to the 15" PR's. The low end of the AV15H and PB13 subs should be very close (output wise), while the mid-bass range (40hz-80hz), the AV15H will have the advantage in output. How will the SQ compare to each other is hard to say, but I can tell you the AV drivers have great SQ. If you want more info of the sub and more help, go to Acoustic Elegance and simon5/John will answer all your questions and model the sub for you.
post #88 of 99
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by spanish68 View Post

You can build a box of around 6cf which is only a little bigger than the PB13 sub. You want to use the 18-2100 PR's which will allow you to tune the AV15H sub lower, in the 16-17hz range, compared to the 15" PR's. The low end of the AV15H and PB13 subs should be very close (output wise), while the mid-bass range (40hz-80hz), the AV15H will have the advantage in output. How will the SQ compare to each other is hard to say, but I can tell you the AV drivers have great SQ. If you want more info of the sub and more help, go to Acoustic Elegance and simon5/John will answer all your questions and model the sub for you.

yeah, this is the closest design we've come to in this thread.

the thought flow seems to go like this: to go low, you have to tune the box low. to tune the box low, you have to have a larger box and/or bigger ports and to tune the ports low, they have to be super big or long, usually way too long to fit in the box. so instead of long ports, let's use passive radiators since those can be weighted down to tune to any frequency. and that's how we arrive at this design.

however, if you look at the SVS design, it pretty much contradicts every rationale used to arrive at the 2 PR design: it has smaller box; reasonable diameter ports that fit inside the box yet are tuned very low; and needs "only" 750W of amp power as well.

so it still raises the question of how the SVS design can work so well. if it is in the design of the driver, then what parameters are being optimized for this to work and do none of the other DIY drivers able to work like this? if it is the design of the box, then how come we can't design a DIY box like this?

sorry for over analyzing, but the engineer in me likes to understand things.
post #89 of 99
Well, that 750W amp is optimized to work with the PB13 in that size box, remember that in a ported box, you don't need a ton of power. From some of the readings I've done, the PB13 driver is a heavy and high excursion driver which considering its size, does extremely well. To get that kind of performace in a ported box that small is almost impossible to do since most people that are doing DIY subs are using 15" and 18" drivers which requires bigger boxes. By the way, I believe that AE has 18-2500 PR's that would work awesome in a box smaller than 6cf with a tune around 15hz or so, for the AV15H sub. Try to model it and see what you get.
post #90 of 99
Quote:
Originally Posted by collin View Post


so it still raises the question of how the SVS design can work so well. if it is in the design of the driver, then what parameters are being optimized for this to work and do none of the other DIY drivers able to work like this? if it is the design of the box, then how come we can't design a DIY box like this?

sorry for over analyzing, but the engineer in me likes to understand things.

They design a driver with a box volume target in mind. The triple ports allow them to 'tailor' the frequency response by plugging them and lowering the tuning frequency, or going in 'sealed' mode. The trade off is that when one or more ports are plugged, the port area drops and the port velocity goes up.

In DIY land, we tend to choose a different compromise than manufactuers, as we don't have to package or 'ship' our creations across the land.

You can tune a smaller box low, but you sacrifice in performance by using a smaller port cross sectional area, you get higher velocities ( onset of chuffing ) and FR changes vs drive level.

Passive radiators are the next best thing when it comes to getting good performance out of a small box.

Generally DIY'ers like a driver that works in a bit bigger box, so that adequate port area can be fit without too much hassle.

One of the members here did a nice build with a Exodus Shiva-X 12" and a 6 inch diameter precision port kit, it required some effort fitting it all in a 6.35 cubic ft box.

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1148326
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: DIY Speakers and Subs
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › DIY Speakers and Subs › Build something comparable to SVS PB13-Ultra?