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Samsung PN**B450 Picture Settings - Page 46

post #1351 of 1471
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bookworm370 View Post

Your input is greatly appreciated Vincent.
Btw, the settings work very well on the PN63B490 that I have as well!

Bookworm370,

The pleasure is all mine. The input I received from you and others in this thread allowed me to tweak (and tweak, and tweak) the settings for the series of this hdtv. I think the picture quality is about the best I can get it. I think that there is at least one other samsung thread (PN**D450?) where one member used these settings and had a lot of good things to say about it. Here's a quote from that thread:
Quote:
i dunno if anyone cares but this was posted for another samsung tv by (Vincentfam) and i tried it for the pn51d450 and it was the best standard picture i have seen so far....i didn't know if anyone wanted to try and work off these settings to get them perfect for our tv

If interested in my calibration techniques, see the following thread in this forum: Some DIY Techniques In Calibrating Plasma HDTV

There is one final recommendation that has nothing to do with the tv's settings. It's for the input signal. I have a cable set top box that has adjustable input signals for 1080i, 790p, and native. It is recommended per a website to use native setting, which automatically adjusts the signal input with the channel's native signal. If native is not available, use 1080i for the best possible picture.

As always,

Your colleague in picture quality.

Vincentfam
Edited by vincentfam - 10/23/12 at 5:29pm
post #1352 of 1471
The 12000K Settings - Standard Mode HDMI:

Greetings Colleagues:

Herein are the settings for color temperature 12000K. I think that this is the upper limit of the white space in the CIE color gamut. The picture should appear to be a little whiter than the D93 settings, and for diy calibrators the approximate coordinates are x = 0.27178 and y = 0.2825. Average measured gamma is 2.28 and static contrast ratio is 1612. Very little change from D93 settings, only the rgb settings changed with a slightly flat gamma. Probably a very good day viewing setting.

Standard HDMI
screen fit
GCD 10% Windows 22% apl

standard mode
color tone cool
cell light 9
contrast 83
brightness 46
sharpness 0 - 1
color 48 DVE Pattern with Blue Filter
tint 53/47
black tone off
Gamma -1
auto color space
Offset Red 17 Green 19 Blue 21
Gain Red 31 Green 30 Blue 42
All other enhancements off, including edge enhancement

Vincentfam
post #1353 of 1471
The Sharpness Dilemma:

Greetings Colleagues,

I have studied sharpness recommendations in the last few weeks that involved automatically turning sharpness to zero to increasing the sharpness setting until artifacts appear. The recommendations even included which sharpness pattern on which dvd/blu ray disk was the best. Then I ran across an old recommendation by the HD Nation experts, which appeared to be: increase sharpness setting until artifacts 'obviously' appears. These experts, at least one of them, suggested that some sharpness is needed for a better/crisper picture.

Applying this HD Nation philosophy, I get the following settings:

HDMI/Standard Mode: 2
HDMI/Movie Mode: 11
Component/Standard Mode: 2
Component/Movie Mode: 18

For your consideration,

Vincentfam
post #1354 of 1471
Hi, Vincent,

I own two PN42B450 sets, and I have to say I'm very happy. My current settings using Movie, before coming back to this thread just today, were from an earlier post, some two years ago. smile.gif I have to say both your Standard and Movie settings are great. I had thought that Standard/Cool settings were too bright, but it's true that in a lit room or daylight, Movie is just too dark and sometimes you can't see parts of the image.

I just tried your settings below, set to 16x9 instead of Screen Fit. Are these your latest tweaks? I noticed you gave several sets of configurations, so just curious.

Also, where to do you set 10% Windows, 22% APL - What does this mean? Also do you have a configuration for component? Thanks!

Movie HDMI
screen fit
10% Windows 22% APL

Movie mode
color tone warm2
cell light 9
contrast 89
brightness 45
sharpness 5 (6 with 1080p pattern)
color 48
tint 52/48
black tone off
Gamma 2
auto color space
cuts Red 25 Green 29 Blue 38
Gain Red 46 Green 23 Blue 39
screen fit
HDMI Black Level greyed out
All other enhancements off, including edge enhancement

Standard HDMI
screen fit
GCD 10% Windows 22% apl

standard mode
color tone cool
cell light 9
contrast 77
brightness 48
sharpness 0 - 1 (3 with 1080p pattern)
color 48 DVE Pattern with Blue Filter
tint 53/47
black tone off
Gamma -1
auto color space
cuts Red 12 Green 19 Blue 26
Gain Red 40 Green 30 Blue 36
All other enhancements off, including edge enhancement
post #1355 of 1471
Greetings direwolf2009,

Here are my final recommendations based on previous postings. Many configurations were given due to updates from my ongoing calibrations. But I think the below settings are about the best I can recommend.

You may want to consider using the screen fit setting instead of 16:9 to obtain 1:1 mapping of the tv's pixels for a potentially better picture, but keep in mind that the screen fit setting may turn off a safety feature that may protect against image retention. I haven't had any problems using the screen fit settings.

Also, a note about sharpness: After setting sharpness, if the picture appears to be slightly fuzzy, you may want to consider using an hdmi cable with ferrite (magnetic) cores and a ferrite core on the power cord near the plug to prevent or reduce electrical interference from other devices/wiring. Samsung recommends use of a ferrite core, which is included with this tv, on the power cord for this model.

The 10% Windows, 22% APL is a calibration pattern found on the Gamut Calibration Disk that was created by members in this forum. It is recommended that this pattern be used to calibrate plasma tvs due to technical problems in using other common calibration patterns. I use this pattern from this disk in my blu ray player when calibrating the tv with a colorimeter. There is no setting on the tv for this pattern.

See the following thread for diy calibration techniques used: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1430821/some-diy-techniques-in-calibrating-plasma-hdtv

Standard HDMI
D93 Color Temperature Settings
screen fit
GCD 10% Windows 22% apl

standard mode
color tone cool
cell light 9
contrast 83
brightness 46
sharpness 1
color 48 DVE Pattern with Blue Filter
tint 53/47
black tone off
Gamma -1
auto color space
cuts Red 16 Green 19 Blue 19
Gain Red 39 Green 30 Blue 34
All other enhancements off, including edge enhancement


Bonus Standard HDMI
12000K Color Temperature Settings
screen fit
GCD 10% Windows 22% apl

standard mode
color tone cool
cell light 9
contrast 83
brightness 46
sharpness 1
color 48 DVE Pattern with Blue Filter
tint 53/47
black tone off
Gamma -1
auto color space
Offset Red 17 Green 19 Blue 21
Gain Red 31 Green 30 Blue 42
All other enhancements off, including edge enhancement


Movie HDMI
screen fit
10% Windows 22% APL

Movie mode
color tone warm2
cell light 9
contrast 87
brightness 45
sharpness 5
color 48
tint 52/48
black tone off
Gamma 2
auto color space
cuts Red 35 Green 29 Blue 46
Gain Red 44 Green 23 Blue 37
screen fit
HDMI Black Level greyed out
All other enhancements off, including edge enhancement

Standard Component
screen fit
GCD 10% Windows 22% apl

standard mode
color tone cool
cell light 9
contrast 84
brightness 46
sharpness 1
color 48 DVE Pattern with Blue Filter
tint 53/47
black tone off
Gamma -1
auto color space
cuts Red 10 Green 17 Blue 17
Gain Red 42 Green 30 Blue 35
All other enhancements off, including edge enhancement


Movie Component
screen fit
10% Windows 22% APL

Movie mode
color tone warm2
cell light 10
contrast 93
brightness 45
sharpness 4
color 48
tint 53/47
black tone off
Gamma 2
auto color space
cuts Red 26 Green 32 Blue 46 Corrected
Gain Red 41 Green 18 Blue 37
screen fit
HDMI Black Level greyed out
All other enhancements off, including edge enhancement

Vincentfam
Edited by vincentfam - 11/23/12 at 4:36am
post #1356 of 1471
Hi, Vincent,

Thanks very much. Makes things much easier for me, much appreciated. I was getting a bit dizzy with all the configurations and postings.

I have made of the note your last posting and will use these.

Initially, when I tried the Cool setting some years back, I couldn't get over the blueish tone in the picture, instead preferring the yellow tone of Warm2, but this made the image less white. In earlier posts, everyone was about the Movie setting, because the prevailing opinion was it was more "natural" Having watched many Blu-rays for work and elsewhere, I enjoy the Movie setting, but admit that it can be a bit dark, and less vibrant.

Thanks again.
post #1357 of 1471
Ferrite Cores Recommended:

Greetings Colleagues,

FYI:

I recently updated my cable set top box and noticed a very slight fuzziness in the picture. There are many cables and devices attached to my tv. I replaced the regular hdmi cable with one (monoprice.com) that had ferrite cores to prevent or reduce electrical interference from other devices/wiring. Also, I placed samsung's ferrite core (the one that comes with the tv) on the power cord near the plug. The picture quality improved. Please note that my tv is about 10 feet away from an electrical junction box, potential interference.

Vincentfam
Edited by vincentfam - 11/25/12 at 6:08pm
post #1358 of 1471
The 12000K - Standard Mode Component Settings:

Greetings,

Below are the settings for standard mode using component cables. I attempted to turn up brightness up a notch to 47, but that threw the gamma curve off. I think component input looks better on my tv, with the output setting on the set top box set to 1080i instead of native. 12000K color temperature should make the whites appear whiter.

See the following thread for diy calibration techniques used: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1430821/some-diy-techniques-in-calibrating-plasma-hdtv

Standard Component 12000k
screen fit
GCD 10% Windows 22% apl

standard mode
color tone cool
cell light 9
contrast 84
brightness 46
sharpness 1
color 48
tint 53/47
black tone off
Gamma -1
auto color space
cuts/offsets Red 12 Green 17 Blue 17
Gain Red 31 Green 30 Blue 44
All other enhancements off, including edge enhancement

Vincentfam
Edited by vincentfam - 12/5/12 at 8:40pm
post #1359 of 1471
The New 12000K - Standard Mode Component Settings - Gamma level increased to 2.31

Herein are the new 12K color temperature settings for component input with gamma level increased to 2.31. Static Contrast ratio 1317 and peak white around 48 ftL. Contrast was increased significantly enough to where sharpness setting was set to 0 (a sharpness setting of 1 from point of viewing tv detected artifacts).

I would promise that these are the last tweaked settings, but I have said that in the past.

Standard Component 12000k
screen fit
GCD 10% Windows 22% apl

standard mode
color tone cool
cell light 10
contrast 83
brightness 48
sharpness 0
color 48
tint 53/47
black tone off
Gamma -2
auto color space
cuts/offsets Red 9 Green 20 Blue 22
Gain Red 28 Green 23 Blue 43
All other enhancements off, including edge enhancement

Vincentfam
post #1360 of 1471
The Colormunki 10,000K Color Temperature Settings Component & HDMI:

Greetings Colleagues,

Here are the 10,000K Color Temperature Settings for Component and HDMI inputs, with the gamma level raised to 2.3 per recommendation from this forum. I found that the 12K settings were introducing a slight bluish tint with a negative bump in the gamma graph levels. These settings have a really level gamma curve - see attached graph below. If you are a DIY calibrator, coordinates are x = 0.282 and y = 0.295 @ 40% and 80% apl windows. Sharpness settings at 0, with artifacts observed when increasing settings to 1.

Standard HDMI 10000k
screen fit
GCD 10% Windows 22% apl

standard mode
color tone cool
cell light 10
contrast 81
brightness 48
sharpness 0
color 48
tint 53/47
black tone off
Gamma -2
auto color space
cuts/offsets Red 11 Green 21 Blue 28
Gain Red 36 Green 23 Blue 32
All other enhancements off, including edge enhancement


Standard Component 10000k
screen fit
GCD 10% Windows 22% apl

standard mode
color tone cool
cell light 10
contrast 83
brightness 48
sharpness 0
color 48
tint 53/47
black tone off
Gamma -2
auto color space
cuts/offsets Red 12 Green 21 Blue 28
Gain Red 32 Green 23 Blue 31
All other enhancements off, including edge enhancement

10K Gamma Curve.bmp 1183k .bmp file

10K Gamma.png 6k .png file

As always,

The Vincentfam
Edited by vincentfam - 12/12/12 at 5:54am
post #1361 of 1471
The NEW Colormunki GAMMA 2.2 10,000K Color Temperature Settings Component & HDMI:

Greetings Colleagues,

Here are the 10,000K Color Temperature Settings for Component and HDMI inputs, with the gamma level lowered to 2.2 to lighten up the picture a little. Gamma level @ 2.3 was a little too dark for me.


Standard HDMI 10000k
screen fit
Using GCD 10% Windows 22% apl

standard mode
color tone cool
cell light 9
contrast 79
brightness 47
sharpness 0
color 48
tint 53/47
black tone off
Gamma -1
auto color space
cuts/offsets Red 12 Green 21 Blue 24
Gain Red 33 Green 23 Blue 32
All other enhancements off, including edge enhancement


Standard Component 10000k
screen fit
Using GCD 10% Windows 22% apl

standard mode
color tone cool
cell light 9
contrast 80
brightness 47
sharpness 0
color 48
tint 53/47
lack tone off
Gamma -1
auto color space
cuts/offsets Red 13 Green 22 Blue 27
Gain Red 32 Green 21 Blue 30
All other enhancements off, including edge enhancement

Vincentfam
Edited by vincentfam - 12/23/12 at 5:12pm
post #1362 of 1471
The Standard Mode (HDMI & Component) Color Temperature D93 Recommendations:

Greetings Colleagues,

This is probably one of the last if not the last settings postings. I have reviewed the recent postings from D93 to 12000K Color Temperature settings and it appears that this model clips the blue settings for color temperatures above D93 (9300K color temperature). So I tweaked the D93 settings and achieved the following:

(For recommendations on calibration techniques used for plasma tvs, see the following link:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1430821/some-diy-techniques-in-calibrating-plasma-hdtv)

Standard HDMI
screen fit
Using 10% Windows 22% apl

standard mode
color tone cool
cell light 9
contrast 83
brightness 47
sharpness 0
color 48 DVE Pattern with Blue Filter
tint 52/48
black tone off
Gamma -1
auto color space
cuts Red 17 Green 18 Blue 19
Gain Red 38 Green 30 Blue 35
All other enhancements off, including edge enhancement



Standard Component
screen fit
Using 10% Windows 22% apl

standard mode
color tone cool
cell light 9
contrast 84
brightness 47
sharpness 0
color 48 DVE Pattern with Blue Filter
tint 53/47
black tone off
Gamma -1
auto color space
cuts Red 13 Green 17 Blue 18
Gain Red 41 Green 30 Blue 35
All other enhancements off, including edge enhancement

Yours in picture quality,

Vincentfam
Edited by vincentfam - 12/27/12 at 7:46am
post #1363 of 1471
The Updated Standard Mode (HDMI & Component) Color Temperature D93 Recommendations:

Greetings Colleagues,

This is just an update for color/tint settings of the standard mode inputs. These settings were changed by using the smpte color patterns for color, avs forum color pattern for tint, and DVE's blue filter.

(For recommendations on calibration techniques used for plasma tvs, see the following link:
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1430821/some-diy-techniques-in-calibrating-plasma-hdtv)

Standard HDMI
screen fit
Using 10% Windows 22% apl

standard mode
color tone cool
cell light 9
contrast 83
brightness 47
sharpness 0
color 49
tint 54/46

black tone off
Gamma -1
auto color space
Offsets Red 12 Green 16 Blue 17
Gain Red 39 Green 30 Blue 34
All other enhancements off, including edge enhancement


Standard Component
screen fit
Using 10% Windows 22% apl

standard mode
color tone cool
cell light 9
contrast 84
brightness 47
sharpness 0
color 49
tint 55/45

black tone off
Gamma -1
auto color space
Offsets Red 14 Green 16 Blue 16
Gain Red 37 Green 29 Blue 34
All other enhancements off, including edge enhancement

Yours in picture quality,

Vincentfam
Edited by vincentfam - 12/28/12 at 8:44pm
post #1364 of 1471
D93 Standard Modes Updated Using Small APL Calibration Windows:

Greetings Colleagues,

The debate over which calibration patterns to use for plasma tvs is heating up if not already heated in the calibration display section of this forum. Recent postings in this thread have used the 10% Windows 22% apl found on the GCD calibration disk. For example on the debate, see the following quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by ndaa75 View Post

I do have a question Doug that perhaps you could answer.
When calibrating isn't it best to ensure that you calibrate the highest luminance value your set is capable of displaying during any given session, thus ensuring you cover all luminance ranges? Using windows say of 10% plus do not allow for this as Chads experiment illustrates, but smaller windows do. On the basis of this and the fact that neither window size represents real life content anyhow the smaller window would get my vote.

I have observed many calibrations of our plasma tv using the 10% windows and recently noticed some slight inconsistencies with the measurements. Looking back on my many settings I found that the small apl window settings found on the AVS Forum 709 disk was pretty consistent with pretty flat gamma levels. If you are a DIY calibrator, the HCFR recommends x = 0.287 and y = 0.295 @ 40 and 80 windows for the D93 settings. Therefore, herein are the updated Standard mode settings for hdmi and component inputs using the small apl window patterns from the AVS Forum 709 disk:

Standard HDMI
screen fit
Using Small apl Windows

standard mode
color tone cool
cell light 9
contrast 83
brightness 46
sharpness 0
color 49
tint 53/47
black tone off
Gamma 0
auto color space
cuts Red 13 Green 22 Blue 30
Gain Red 49 Green 26 Blue 32
All other enhancements off, including edge enhancement


Standard Component
screen fit
Using Small apl Windows

standard mode
color tone cool
cell light 9
contrast 84
brightness 46
sharpness 0
color 49
tint 52/48
black tone off
Gamma 0
auto color space
cuts Red 14 Green 23 Blue 33
Gain Red 50 Green 26 Blue 32
All other enhancements off, including edge enhancement

Vincentfam
Edited by vincentfam - 12/30/12 at 3:10pm
post #1365 of 1471
The Colormunki - Small APL Window Settings - Revamped

Greetings Colleagues,

I am submitting the Small APL Windows Colormunki settings due to color clipping by the 10% Windows 22% apl. The advantage of using the smaller calibration windows for our model tv is no clipping. The disadvancages include inability to properly measure peak white levels, etc., due to the intensities of the smaller windows; Also the measured gamma is higher than normal windows. For example, the measured gamma levels for these settings are around 2.3, but in reality are 2.2 when measuring gamma with normal windows.

The debate over in the Display Calibration section of this forum appears to be that the 10% Windows 22% apl are to be used for recently manufactured plasma tvs, which may exclude the samsung model tv in this thread. MHO, the 10% Windows with 22% apl should not be used for this model.

THESE ARE THE RECOMMENDED SETTINGS
WHICH MAY BE TWEAKED FROM TIME TO TIME

Sharpness Settings Suggestions Updated

Standard HDMI
D93 Color Temperature Settings
screen fit
Using AVS Forum Small APL Windows

standard mode
color tone cool
cell light 9
contrast 87
brightness 46
sharpness 0 (4 using DVE 1080p Sharpness Pattern)
color 49
tint 53/47
black tone off
Gamma -1
auto color space
offsets Red 10 Green 22 Blue 31 1/5/13 filtered
Gain Red 49 Green 26 Blue 34 1/5/13 filtered
All other enhancements off, including edge enhancement


Movie HDMI
screen fit
Using AVS Forum Small APL Windows

Movie mode
color tone warm2
cell light 9
contrast 88
brightness 47
sharpness 4 (8 using DVE 1080p Sharpness Pattern)
color 49
tint 52/48
black tone off
Gamma +1
auto color space
offsets Red 37 Green 29 Blue 38 1/5/13 filtered
Gain Red 44 Green 18 Blue 32 1/5/13 filtered
screen fit
HDMI Black Level greyed out
All other enhancements off, including edge enhancement

Standard Component
screen fit
Using AVS Forum Small APL Windows

standard mode
color tone cool
cell light 8
contrast 86
brightness 46
sharpness 0 (4 using DVE 1080p Sharpness Pattern)
color 49
tint 53/47
black tone off
Gamma -1
auto color space
offsets Red 19 Green 29 Blue 42 1/5/13 filtered
Gain Red 45 Green 23 Blue 30 1/5/13 filtered
All other enhancements off, including edge enhancement

Movie Component
screen fit
Using AVS Forum Small APL Windows

Movie mode
color tone warm2
cell light 10
contrast 91
brightness 47
sharpness 2 (7 using DVE 1080p Sharpness Pattern)
color 49
tint 53/47
black tone off
Gamma +1
auto color space
offsets Red 35 Green 33 Blue 39 1/5/13 filtered
Gain Red 44 Green 18 Blue 32 1/5/13 filtered
screen fit
HDMI Black Level greyed out
All other enhancements off, including edge enhancement

Vincentfam
Edited by vincentfam - 2/8/13 at 5:52am
post #1366 of 1471
Wow Vincentfam, the settings you have continued to post amaze me. So out of all the calibrations you have posted, which is your suggested ones at this time? I've read and tried so many of them I'm not sure anymore.
post #1367 of 1471
I would recommend the last group of settings that were calibrated with the small apl windows and posted today. I do not believe that the 10% Windows 22% apl settings are the best for our tv's model due to some color clipping in the measurements. The 10% Windows 22% apl are "generally" recommended but not sufficient for all plasmas.

The current debate in the "display calibration" section of this forum over the proper calibration patterns to use indicate that calibrators should use the patterns that make the picture look best, instead of having a one size fits all pattern such as the 10% Windows.

So I think that these recent settings with the small apl windows are probably my final postings. But I have said that before.

Vincentfam
post #1368 of 1471
Greetings Colleagues,

Apologies for the many ongoing posted settings, which can be very confusing. I had some difficulties in calibrating this plasma tv and with each posted setting I would see some inaccuracies or errors. Sometimes I used what is generally accepted (such as the 10% Windows 22% apl) only to find out that it was not appropriate for our samsung plasma. I finally settled on using the small apl patterns, as recommended by some forum members, for consistency in calibration results.

For your consideration, I have posted the following quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Light Illusion View Post

It is true that accurate plasmas calibration is all but impossible, due to ABL.
The best you can do is to gain an acceptable compromise.

Had I known that calibrating this plasma tv would be this tough . . . . . . . I would've still gone through all of the postings to find what appears to be the best results.

Your Colleague in HDTV quality,

The Vincentfam
Edited by vincentfam - 1/1/13 at 4:46am
post #1369 of 1471
No worries vincentfam, I greatly appreciate all the work you've done.

Would you still say you're latest that you pointed me to would be the best settings to use? Or are you still tweaking wink.gif
post #1370 of 1471
LDouglasLJr,

The settings listed in posting #1365 are about the best I can get them. Your picture should look noticeably better and smoother. I do not anticipate tweaking these settings any further, unless the members in the Display Calibration section suggest otherwise. Also, the above settings may be edited with tweaks to level out the gamma curve above 80% small apl windows on the calibration graph. However, it may be impossible to tweak these settings further because of the ABL effect.

This may be it for awhile. But I have said that before.

Vincentfam
Edited by vincentfam - 1/2/13 at 8:27am
post #1371 of 1471
Movie Mode Settings (HDMI & Component) corrected and tweaked in posting # 1365 (The recommended settings).

1/4/13 settings updated (calibration environment was a completely dark room)
1/5/13 settings updated - filtered

Calibrating plasma tvs can be difficult, depending on the equipment and patterns used. For DIY calibration techniques used, you may want to go to this link: http://www.avsforum.com/t/1430821/some-diy-techniques-in-calibrating-plasma-hdtv, or go to the display calibration section of this forum.
Edited by vincentfam - 1/5/13 at 8:22pm
post #1372 of 1471
Vince,

post 1365 improved the color balances significantly! I noticed a few days ago when I was watching and the rewatched the DVR'd version of the SyFI series Merlin that it had a slightly blue cast and it was most apparent that Merlin's hair had a blue tinge to it.

I applied you new updated 1365 Standard HDMI recommendation and the blue cast is gone and his hair is a natural black!

Thanks again!

Again this is on a Samsung PN63B490 Plasma!
post #1373 of 1471
Post # 1365 and the Power Line Conditioner:

Bookworm370,

Post 1365 settings are based on the use of the small apl window patterns located on the AVS Forum 709 calibration disk. The previous settings based on the Gamut Calibration Disk, 10% Windows 22% apl were clipping the rgb colors too much.

However, and unfortunately, the calibration of this tv may continue. I have discovered a phenomenon called "power conditioner" or "line conditioner", or combination thereof, and this phenomenon (or device) is suppose to regulate the voltage and current (that is, condition the power source) so that your hdtv can run on clean power to possibly have a better picture. It is suppose to deliver a near perfect sinusoidal signal to your tv for near perfect operation and thus near perfect PQ. Some members of this forum absolutely dislike the thought of this device being promoted as a power cleaner to the extent of calling it snake oil, while others suggests some benefit to picture quality.

I am currently looking into the different types of conditioners to see if there are any benefits to PQ, but some of them are too costly, $500 and up, or if a good surge protector is a good alternative.

For the last updated settings in post 1365, I plugged the tv, cable box, and the blu ray into a surge protector/battery backup that had some "filters". That is why you see "filtered" by some of the updated settings in that post. Some members say that a good surge protector is just as good as a line/power conditioner, but I do not know that at this time.

If anyone has any comments on or experience with conditioners, please let me know of your opinions. I will probably purchase one soon (if the budget allows) to see if there is any change/improvement to picture quality.

Vincentfam
Edited by vincentfam - 1/8/13 at 9:02pm
post #1374 of 1471
Actually, I have my Samsung plugged into a full sine wave OptiUPS which is not only a power conditioner but provides pure full sine wave output.

I'm actually of the group of people that these people that buy the Monstor power conditioners are more like snake oil. If you look for a high end UPS like OPTI or APC you'll see that they have full power conditioning as well as the ability of a UPS backup! They take the input A/C, convert it to DC, filter it and then reconstitute it back into a pure 60hz sine wave output. My OptiUPS shows the both input voltage and cycles per/second and also the output voltage and a clean 60hz.
post #1375 of 1471
Bookworm370,

Sounds like the line conditioner improves performance of the home theatre system. Does it improve picture quality and do you recommend a line conditioner?

Vincentfam
post #1376 of 1471
I wouldn't recommend just the conditioner, but a pure sine wave UPS like the OptiUPS. That way you get the best of both, a line conditioner and also power protection against power failures, spikes or brownouts.

I have the 2 year older version of this one:
http://www.opti-ups.com/index.asp?SCID=SC12080128

It comes in difference backup capacities (time for backup) but all of these series offer AVR, under, overvoltage, spike, line conditioning and pure sign wave.

You you get the best of both.

As to is there better PQ, I can't speak to that as my Denon, Sammy and BluRay and all AVR equipment have been on this UPS since I installed them.
post #1377 of 1471
RE: The Pure Sine Power Conditioner with AVR

Well Bookworm370, I am going to be patient and wait on a sale for either a high end APC or Opti Ups power conditioner and purchase one just to see its impact on the picture quality. There has got to be some benefits in having one, regardless of whether or not the PQ improves.

After the conditioner is purchased and connected to my system, I will report back on my observations.

Until then,

The Vincentfam, your colleague in picture quality.

Jan. 11, 2013 Update: Just measured voltage from the outlet with a multimeter and it came to 120 VAC, which is just about perfect. Looks like I will not be ordering a power conditioner.
Edited by vincentfam - 1/11/13 at 6:45pm
post #1378 of 1471
Remember, it's not voltage which can change from hour to hour and second to second. Go back and check tonight and I bet it won't be the exact same 120V. Besides the measure of voltage in A/C is peak to peak in a 60hz sine wave. Did you measure with a frequency counter if you were at 60hz or 58.5 hz? That's cycles per second. Change in voltage don't make much difference in power supplies in the TV because it has a switching power supply that will smooth out the small changes on voltage but it can't change the change in cycles.

Also you can have a nice 60 hz sine wave but distorted (now that will play havoc with your AVR equipment.

For example, here is what a pure sine wave looks like on a scope:



Now here is an equally (electrically example of a sign wave):



Notice by looking at peak to peak (which is what an A/C voltage meter reads it's x to -x or if we normalize to 120V it's 120v to -120V which is exactly what the pure sign wave looks like.

On the other hand if you put in a UPS that does not output a pure sign wave then you get an emulated or modified square wave that still measures peak to peak. Here is an example of a non-power-conditioned cheap UPS compared output compared to it's input:



Now look at these, These are images of all 120V sine waves but at different frequencies, 60, 50, 80, 56, etc. All are 120V but clock measure time not by the voltage but by knowing that over a period of time that the power company if they fall back on cycle or two will insert a cycle here and there to guarantee that over an average day you will have received 60 hz over the day. But what if your power skipped a beat once and got a double beat later. Again not to good on PQ. You can't go back and change the red to pink that should have been pink 30 seconds ago that is now green.



So I think by now you might understand that unless you have a very expensive oscilloscope you really can't tell what is being delivered to your home. Just your wife turning on the vacuum cleaner can put a ton of junk onto the power line. And don't let me tell you about things like X10 or florescent ballasts. I'm an EE, so I sort of do this for a living.

So that is the reason I didn't even start my AVR system until I had the power down to perfect. I chose to go to a pure sine wave UPS instead of the cheaper power conditioner so I can have some backup. If I lose power and I'm watching or recording something on my Dish Network DVR, I can wait for 30 seconds to see if they power comes back but the TV, DVR etc all still work but at that draw the UPS won't last long. So if I start powering down the 69" plazma, the 1600 watt 7.1 receiver, all the other stuff other than the DVR the DVR draws so little power that it can run for about 2 hours before depleting the battery and can finish up recording the show. Besides, on a power blip, I really don't like waiting 5 minutes for the Sat receiver to reboot itself.

So before you decide not to get anything based on a single empirical observation, I'd look at the above. If your DVOM has a HZ setting look at your input frequencies, and watch it jump around a little. The power conditioners and pure sine wave UPS's use an internal battery to build up, cut down and reconstitute the input to exactly a pure 60hz sine wave always from the output. It's just that the power conditioners have a battery that is teeny tiny and won't switch over to UPS. They just will last about a cycle or two before they cut out.

Ok.. How's that for 1st session Alternating current intro class 101. LOL
Edited by Bookworm370 - 1/12/13 at 11:41am
post #1379 of 1471
The Pure Sine Power Conditioner with AVR Dilemma Continues:

Greetings Bookworm370,

You are making it very very difficult for me to not buy the power conditioner. Your explanations make complete sense to me, being that I have a EE background as well. The measuring instrument that I used to measure the AC voltage last night was a cheap AAA battery operated device that probably cost less than $10. Far from the oscilloscope I used in circuits lab years ago.

Today, I went to Micro Center to see the last two APC H15s that they have. These are very very heavy devices. I promptly grabbed a copy of their sales ads and signed onto their email list so that I can await their hopeful sales price drop on these devices which appears to be a discontinued model.

When there's a will, then there's a way.

BTW, what is the exact model number for your Opti-Ups. Your link only goes to the website, but not the model number.

Thanks for the advice.

Vincentfam
Edited by vincentfam - 1/12/13 at 5:13pm
post #1380 of 1471
I am going to try to be patient and wait on a good sales price on the OPTI-UPS DS1000B. I believe this UPS is consistent with what Bookworm370 described as providing online pure sine wave. As with the colormunki, you will be advised on the receipt of the opti-ups, my observations, and its results.

Vincentfam, the patient one
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