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Research Pays off: The Best "Pre/Pro" for the money NAD M15 + DVDO Edge + Sony S550 - Page 3

post #61 of 101
4/27/09 at 3:37pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNY-C View Post

Report: The Sony BDP-S550 came in today and the Analog outputs sound better than the Optical to the NAD. The Sony has a bunch of audio settings to dig through but once you get them right: it sounds great. Posting some pics...

I wouldn't have expected that, did you try coax?
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post #62 of 101
4/27/09 at 4:00pm
Quote:
I wouldn't have expected that, did you try coax?

Optical and coax would sound the same.
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post #63 of 101
4/27/09 at 4:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

Optical and coax would sound the same.

No, they don't sound the same at all; Optical starts with an O and is three syllables long and Coax starts with a hard C and is only two syllables long - very different.....
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post #64 of 101
4/27/09 at 4:28pm
Quote:
No, they don't sound the same at all; Optical starts with an O and is three syllables long and Coax starts with a hard C and is only two syllables long - very different.....

So why would you want the OP to try coax instead of optical with the NAD M15?
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post #65 of 101
4/27/09 at 4:38pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

No, they don't sound the same at all; Optical starts with an O and is three syllables long and Coax starts with a hard C and is only two syllables long - very different.....

Point taken.

However, I made sure that the THX set-up on the Sony (Large fronts 6' from listening position, center on and surrounds off) were the same as the THX set-up on the M15 and there is a recognizable difference between 7.1 analog input and the Optical and Digital Coax (just checked to be sure). I need more amplification for the Analog inputs but once I "normalize" the two, the digital connections are clearly - actually - more than clearly, lacking. Over the optical connection, it sounds good but compared to the analog inputs: it sounds slightly like the speaker is "sitting in a bathtub" (highly-technical term right there ) - highs not high or detailed and lows lack definition.

I wouldn't have expected this at first either but an earlier poster, DougWinsor, suggested that I use the analog outputs from the Sony and he was right on the money. Thanks Doug!

If I had to guess, I would say that it's either (a) because of poor implementation on Sony's side for the digital audio outputs as they probably figure that end-users will either be using HDMI for audio or analog if they have "legacy," high-SQ-biased equipment, or (b), DRM/encryption-free, uncompressed, digital audio scares the hell out of the studios
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post #66 of 101
4/27/09 at 4:38pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougWinsor View Post

So why would you want the OP to try coax instead of optical with the NAD M15?

Thanks again.

One thing to note: the difference was very drastic on The Day the Earth Stood Still and Dave Matthews & Tim Reynolds Live at Radio City but less drastic/non-existent on Step Into Liquid. That being said, from no source material I tried did the digital connections sound better.
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post #67 of 101
4/27/09 at 4:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNY-C View Post


If I had to guess, I would say that it's either (a) because of poor implementation on Sony's side for the digital audio outputs as they probably figure that end-users will either be using HDMI for audio or analog if they have "legacy," high-SQ-biased equipment, or (b), DRM/encryption-free, uncompressed, digital audio scares the hell out of the studios

I was feeding it with both HDMI and Coax from a Pioneer 59AVi, IMO it sounded better, excellent actually, over coax. I have no technical reason that it should sound different if you tried coax - it was more curiousity driven. I have read that there are some inferior toslink implementations out there.....
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post #68 of 101
4/27/09 at 6:17pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

I was feeding it with both HDMI and Coax from a Pioneer 59AVi, IMO it sounded better, excellent actually, over coax. I have no technical reason that it should sound different if you tried coax - it was more curiousity driven. I have read that there are some inferior toslink implementations out there.....

I tried coax and it had the same effect. It is possible that it's both a poor coax and optical implementation as the player is most likely going to be used by someone with no receiver, a receiver that accepts HDMI audio or someone that will use 7.1 analog inputs to "legacy" equipment such as the M15.

I think there is more to my hypothesis about the studios not wanting/allowing uncompressed audio over digital coax/optical for copyright protection reasons with Sony owning a studio themselves and also being the major proponent of Blu-Ray to said studios. I would wager that for games the PS3 has a no-compromise optical output because Sony *wouldn't totally,* "disrespect" their customers but for Blu-Ray movies, it's anyone's guess.
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post #69 of 101
4/27/09 at 6:38pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNY-C View Post

I tried coax and it had the same effect. It is possible that it's both a poor coax and optical implementation as the player is most likely going to be used by someone with no receiver, a receiver that accepts HDMI audio or someone that will use 7.1 analog inputs to "legacy" equipment such as the M15.

I think there is more to my hypothesis about the studios not wanting/allowing uncompressed audio over digital coax/optical for copyright protection reasons with Sony owning a studio themselves and also being the major proponent of Blu-Ray to said studios. I would wager that for games the PS3 has a no-compromise optical output because Sony *wouldn't totally,* "disrespect" their customers but for Blu-Ray movies, it's anyone's guess.

I was mostly referring to two channel - I think we got our wires crossed a bit.
It would be really sad if they would deliberately neglect the quality of the legacy outputs, which when you think of it has been around so long even the cheapest of units seem to be able to do it well.
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post #70 of 101
4/27/09 at 7:16pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

I was mostly referring to two channel - I think we got our wires crossed a bit.
It would be really sad if they would deliberately neglect the quality of the legacy outputs, which when you think of it has been around so long even the cheapest of units seem to be able to do it well.

2 channel sounds better with the analog outputs too... Maybe it's just highlights the strength of the M15's analog capabilities? It's weird to say analog sounds better than digital but... ...at the moment... ...I'm convinced
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post #71 of 101
4/27/09 at 7:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNY-C View Post

2 channel sounds better with the analog outputs too... Maybe it's just highlights the strength of the M15's analog capabilities? It's weird to say analog sounds better than digital but... ...at the moment... ...I'm convinced

Hey, if it ain't broke....
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post #72 of 101
4/27/09 at 9:39pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CETA1 View Post

I have to agree that the NAD M15 is superb for analog( and digital). It was my first NAD piece and it is audio bliss.

I use the analog outs on a Denon 3800 into the NAD and blu-ray playback is awesome. To be honest, I have not heard the Integra or Onkyo offerings but I have read that they are not the best choices for analog playback? The Denon/NAD set-up has allowed me to focus on a new amp and subs and the pre/pro will be the last piece of my upgrade puzzle. The NAD and Denon have been a great solution for now.

I have owned an Onkyo AVR once upon a time and I don't think it could compare to the NAD in SQ. Once again that is a piece from quite a few years ago.

I then went to a Yamaha AVR and once again not at the level of NAD.

I am now using a Rega Saturn CDP and I do use the dacs in the Rega but I think the NAD can more than hold its own.

I think the price the OP paid is very good and I probably would have went the same direction in this price range along with a very good blu-ray player that can handle the decoding.

But....... I am getting very excited about the M15HD and Arcam piece coming very soon...

We are finally getting close to having quite a few choices in pre/pro's and I think the M15HD is going to be one hell of a unit based on my experience with the M15.

Rick

I really need to check out the HD when it comes out. I wonder if there will be an upgrade available for the old M15...
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post #73 of 101
4/28/09 at 10:52am
Thread Starter 
I'm loving this set-up so much that I want to accelerate my plans but I also want to "do it right the first time."

Looking into soundproofing for the apartment
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post #74 of 101
4/28/09 at 11:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNY-C View Post

I really need to check out the HD when it comes out. I wonder if there will be an upgrade available for the old M15...

John, the M15 will not be upgradeable.

Rick
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post #75 of 101
4/28/09 at 11:41am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNY-C View Post

I really need to check out the HD when it comes out. I wonder if there will be an upgrade available for the old M15...

As stated before no, but like Rick above a good BD player with great 7.1 analog output will do all the heavy lifting and the M15 won't get in the way.

I think Oppo's upcoming BD/Universal player looks like it'll fit the bill.
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post #76 of 101
4/28/09 at 9:25pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

As stated before no, but like Rick above a good BD player with great 7.1 analog output will do all the heavy lifting and the M15 won't get in the way.

I think Oppo's upcoming BD/Universal player looks like it'll fit the bill.

Are you predicting that the 7.1 analog outputs on the Oppo will be superior to the S550 or are you saying that the pre-out-*digital* AV capacity of the Oppo will be far superior to the S500?
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post #77 of 101
4/28/09 at 9:28pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by CETA1 View Post

John, the M15 will not be upgradeable.

Rick

I guess that it can sound amazing but it can't do everything - audio bliss.

Listening to A Love Supreme by John Coltrane and realizing that he's brilliant.
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post #78 of 101
4/28/09 at 9:38pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

I was mostly referring to two channel - I think we got our wires crossed a bit.
It would be really sad if they would deliberately neglect the quality of the legacy outputs, which when you think of it has been around so long even the cheapest of units seem to be able to do it well.

They would, because you can "rip" lossless sound from the optical/digital coaxial outputs if it weren't compressed to their tastes.
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post #79 of 101
4/29/09 at 8:19am
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNY-C View Post

Are you predicting that the 7.1 analog outputs on the Oppo will be superior to the S550 or are you saying that the pre-out-*digital* AV capacity of the Oppo will be far superior to the S500?

Nope, I don't even know what the S550 is, I just know from reading some of the beta testing comments that the analog output of the Oppo should be quite good. Apparently they've upgrade their op-amps from previous models for this BD player which seems to bode well since their previous units were pretty good in that respect. The unit itself won't be too expensive maybe $500-$600 and by the time it hits the market I wouldn't be surprised if there's analog mods available to kick it up a notch if needed. I'm just throwing that out there as an option to get hi-rez codecs in all their glory without swapping out your M15.
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post #80 of 101
4/29/09 at 12:19pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Nope, I don't even know what the S550 is, I just know from reading some of the beta testing comments that the analog output of the Oppo should be quite good. Apparently they've upgrade their op-amps from previous models for this BD player which seems to bode well since their previous units were pretty good in that respect. The unit itself won't be too expensive maybe $500-$600 and by the time it hits the market I wouldn't be surprised if there's analog mods available to kick it up a notch if needed. I'm just throwing that out there as an option to get hi-rez codecs in all their glory without swapping out your M15.

The Sony BDP-S550 is a Blu-Ray player that can decode all and output 7.1 via analog outputs.

See this Blu-Ray comparison for more information.
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post #81 of 101
4/29/09 at 12:24pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNY-C View Post

The Sony BDP-S550 is a Blu-Ray player that can decode all and output 7.1 via analog outputs.

See this Blu-Ray comparison for more information.

Well then you've got it covered, as long as your happy with it's analog outputs you're in hi-rez heaven.
Pick up Pat Metheney's "The Way Up Live" Blu Ray and have a listen DTS HD MA, or the Police "Certifiable".
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post #82 of 101
4/29/09 at 1:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by rnrgagne View Post

Well then you've got it covered, as long as your happy with it's analog outputs you're in hi-rez heaven.
Pick up Pat Metheney's "The Way Up Live" Blu Ray and have a listen DTS HD MA, or the Police "Certifiable".

I have Pat Metheney's One Quiet Night album and it's amazing so I'm definitely going to check that out and I'm sure Sting's pipes sound great in DTS HD-MA.
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post #83 of 101
4/29/09 at 9:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNY-C View Post

I have Pat Metheney's One Quiet Night album and it's amazing so I'm definitely going to check that out and I'm sure Sting's pipes sound great in DTS HD-MA.

Yeah, but Copland steals the show.
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post #84 of 101
5/1/09 at 5:08pm
Thread Starter 
Thinking about getting this ARC Software + a DAW audio component (Echo AudioFire 8) to compliment the M15 - thoughts?
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post #85 of 101
5/1/09 at 6:20pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNY-C View Post

Thinking about getting this ARC Software + a DAW audio component (Echo AudioFire 8) to compliment the M15 - thoughts?

I looked at the link and it appears ARC is for studios and does not mention multi-channel capability. So unless you would be using it just for 2 channel correction it would not work with the M15 for HT. Just a guess though.

This is a link from the ARC FAQ section of their site:

http://www.ikmultimedia.com/arc/faq/ see item 3.11 on page 2 in reference to multi-channel use.

Bill
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post #86 of 101
5/2/09 at 7:06am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

I looked at the link and it appears ARC is for studios and does not mention multi-channel capability. So unless you would be using it just for 2 channel correction it would not work with the M15 for HT. Just a guess though.

This is a link from the ARC FAQ section of their site:

http://www.ikmultimedia.com/arc/faq/ see item 3.11 on page 2 in reference to multi-channel use.

Bill



Why does no one make this? Is it lack of demand?

I mean if you make software, you can't lose money by selling licenses direct, unless they are worried about diluting the value of their licensing to names like Onkyo/Integra, NAD and others... I doubt that.
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post #87 of 101
5/2/09 at 1:48pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNY-C View Post



Why does no one make this? Is it lack of demand?

I mean if you make software, you can't lose money by selling licenses direct, unless they are worried about diluting the value of their licensing to names like Onkyo/Integra, NAD and others... I doubt that.

Here is a stand alone product by Audyssey that would work for you.

http://www.audyssey.com/soundequalizer/index.html

I believe the cost is $2500.00, quite a bit more than ARC unit. It seems to me that a receiver/prepro that is Audyssey equipped (if needed) is the way to go IMO.

Bill
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post #88 of 101
5/3/09 at 12:24pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill Mac View Post

Here is a stand alone product by Audyssey that would work for you.

http://www.audyssey.com/soundequalizer/index.html

I believe the cost is $2500.00, quite a bit more than ARC unit. It seems to me that a receiver/prepro that is Audyssey equipped (if needed) is the way to go IMO.

Bill

I agree but, from the units that I've heard, unless you go really high-end you compromise on sound quality in tangible ways.
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post #89 of 101
5/3/09 at 12:52pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNY-C View Post

I agree but, from the units that I've heard, unless you go really high-end you compromise on sound quality in tangible ways.

Are you referring to 2CH analog SQ being compromised? I know you have bought and enjoy the M15 which is an excellent processor but lacking in room correction and HDMI 1.3. If 2CH analog is a priority have you thought about a dedicated 2CH preamp with HT Bypass. I have a Onkyo 885 with all the bells and whistles for HT but lacking somewhat for 2 CH analog SQ.

I have had several 2 CH preamps with HT Bypass in my system. Currently I have a TADAC tube preamp/DAC in my system and the SQ is outstanding for 2 CH analog music listening IMO. With the 885 and the TADAC I get the best of both worlds at an affordable cost. There are a few threads here and in the 2 CH Audio forum discussing preamps with HT Bypass. There are quite a few members here that have gone this route. Worth looking into as an option.

Bill
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post #90 of 101
5/3/09 at 1:16pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnNY-C View Post

I agree but, from the units that I've heard, unless you go really high-end you compromise on sound quality in tangible ways.

This one is high-end. The only compromise, and it is not a significant one in practice, is the necessity of the input A/D and the output D/A rather than accepting a digital input. With the AudysseyPro v3 software, it is beyond the other on-board implementations. There is, also, a balanced version available.
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