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Official HSU ULS-15 Thread - Page 73

post #2161 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

I have not contacted other manufacturers.

Thanks. That would be great.

Does not have to be the ULS, could be any of your subs. Might be interesting to check a few models over time to see how they range.

Will do.
post #2162 of 2712
May be potentially in the market for a dual drive. Looks like an awesome sub system!

Have a few questions...

After you set the ulf trim, what does the slope look like? Is it a natural sealed 12db second order rolloff?

Also, what kind of max output are you owners getting in room?

Can a single uls hit reference level in a medium sized room?

How about max output at 10hz or so? Again, a medium sized room.

My room is sealed, in a basement, and 2100 cubic feet.

Thanks for the help!
post #2163 of 2712
Are you getting a dual drive in addition to your current subs???? or will you be replacing the subs you have now with the DD?
post #2164 of 2712
They would be replacing my eDs. Outlaws would stay.

Just looking to try something different potentially.
post #2165 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

May be potentially in the market for a dual drive. Looks like an awesome sub system!

Have a few questions...

After you set the ulf trim, what does the slope look like? Is it a natural sealed 12db second order rolloff?

Also, what kind of max output are you owners getting in room?

Can a single uls hit reference level in a medium sized room?

How about max output at 10hz or so? Again, a medium sized room.

My room is sealed, in a basement, and 2100 cubic feet.

Thanks for the help!

Can you post your room layout, or direct me to a post of your room layout?

The effect of the ULF trim is very gentle. The noted frequency on the ULF trim is the frequency at which the gentle slope starts. The slope is on the order of 2 dB/Oct. Only below 15 Hz that the sub rolls off steeply.

If you are after high SPL in the low bass, the 15H is a much better choice. It also has a sealed mode if you wish to explore the sealed mode. Do note that sealed mode will not provide high SPL in the low bass compared to the ported mode.

No commercial subs will put out high SPL at 10 Hz (other than the Eminent Technology's rotary woofer.) You do not want too SPL in the sub 10 Hz range as it can cause brain damage.

I would suggest a pair of 15Hs if it's mainly for HT.
post #2166 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_hsu View Post


Can you post your room layout, or direct me to a post of your room layout?

The effect of the ULF trim is very gentle. The noted frequency on the ULF trim is the frequency at which the gentle slope starts. The slope is on the order of 2 dB/Oct. Only below 15 Hz that the sub rolls off steeply.

If you are after high SPL in the low bass, the 15H is a much better choice. It also has a sealed mode if you wish to explore the sealed mode. Do note that sealed mode will not provide high SPL in the low bass compared to the ported mode.

No commercial subs will put out high SPL at 10 Hz (other than the Eminent Technology's rotary woofer.) You do not want too SPL in the sub 10 Hz range as it can cause brain damage.

I would suggest a pair of 15Hs if it's mainly for HT.

Hi Dr. Thanks for responding.

Picture of my room and current equipment are in my signature. Basically, it's an 18x14x8 ft sealed room. The ULS's would replace my 2 eD's in the front of my stage. I also have 2 Outlaw LFM1-EXs behind my HT seating. I'd likely corner load the ULSs behind the speakers to get the most boundry gain. With my eD's I was flat to 10hz. I was hoping that the ULS's would have more output from 10-20hz than my eDs. Just looking for more headroom. My room is such that I get a lot of gain.

I do play at reference level at times, and my current system has produced around 118db. With the ULSs, I'd like the to play to 115 or 116.

It is 100% HT.

I'm concerned somewhat with ported designs, because I like the extension down low.

Thanks for your input!
post #2167 of 2712
i dont know if this question has been asked before but to Dr.Hsu, what does "your" (personal) sub system consist of?
post #2168 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

Hi Dr. Thanks for responding.

Picture of my room and current equipment are in my signature. Basically, it's an 18x14x8 ft sealed room. The ULS's would replace my 2 eD's in the front of my stage. I also have 2 Outlaw LFM1-EXs behind my HT seating. I'd likely corner load the ULSs behind the speakers to get the most boundry gain. With my eD's I was flat to 10hz. I was hoping that the ULS's would have more output from 10-20hz than my eDs. Just looking for more headroom. My room is such that I get a lot of gain.

I do play at reference level at times, and my current system has produced around 118db. With the ULSs, I'd like the to play to 115 or 116.

It is 100% HT.

I'm concerned somewhat with ported designs, because I like the extension down low.

Thanks for your input!

18 ft front to back and 14 ft left to right, correct? Placing subs behind you (where the EXs are) will have a null centered around 16 Hz. It would be better to put like a pair of MBMs back there for the great mid bass punch, and have the true subs up front.

I doubt much of the 118 dB is due to any 10 Hz content. No sealed subs will give high SPL in that range even with some help from room gain. If you can achieve strong output down to 16 Hz, that would be plenty, and quite an experience. I would go for two 15Hs up front from 50 Hz down, and two MBMs at the back from 50 Hz up. You can also stick to the EXs back there but add our HPF to filter out bass below 50 Hz. By keeping the lower bass out of the EXs, they have more power reserved to give you the punch in the mid bass.

Order the HPF with 15 Hz and 50 Hz filters. Try the 15 Hz filter on the EDs. See if you get any lower output (from your 118 dB) with the 15 Hz filter engaged. I think you will see little difference.
post #2169 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post

i dont know if this question has been asked before but to Dr.Hsu, what does "your" (personal) sub system consist of?

Due to WAF factor, I only have a VTF-2 MK2 in my house. When I want great bass, all I have to do is go into work... Our demo room has two 15Hs, and two ULSs. Strange as it may sound, I don't listen very loudly. I feel sick if I sit in front of one of the 15Hs when playing the haunting.
post #2170 of 2712
do you have the 15Hs mixed with the ULS, or are they separate rooms for each set?
post #2171 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_hsu View Post

18 ft front to back and 14 ft left to right, correct? Placing subs behind you (where the EXs are) will have a null centered around 16 Hz. It would be better to put like a pair of MBMs back there for the great mid bass punch, and have the true subs up front.

I doubt much of the 118 dB is due to any 10 Hz content. No sealed subs will give high SPL in that range even with some help from room gain. If you can achieve strong output down to 16 Hz, that would be plenty, and quite an experience. I would go for two 15Hs up front from 50 Hz down, and two MBMs at the back from 50 Hz up. You can also stick to the EXs back there but add our HPF to filter out bass below 50 Hz. By keeping the lower bass out of the EXs, they have more power reserved to give you the punch in the mid bass.

Order the HPF with 15 Hz and 50 Hz filters. Try the 15 Hz filter on the EDs. See if you get any lower output (from your 118 dB) with the 15 Hz filter engaged. I think you will see little difference.

It's funny that you should say such since i have heard members state how "everything" needs to be replicated on the disc to have a "full" movie experience.

I will ask a direct question, are you saying, even if a sub system is capable of reference levels at 10Hz or below, a system capable of 16Hz should provide just as good an experience as a system capable of 10Hz?
post #2172 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post

do you have the 15Hs mixed with the ULS, or are they separate rooms for each set?

They are all set up in the same room, with a switcher to switch between the different subs (VTF-1, VTF-2 MK4, VTF-3 MK4, MBM, etc.)
post #2173 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post

It's funny that you should say such since i have heard members state how "everything" needs to be replicated on the disc to have a "full" movie experience.

I will ask a direct question, are you saying, even if a sub system is capable of reference levels at 10Hz or below, a system capable of 16Hz should provide just as good an experience as a system capable of 10Hz?

No. what I am saying is there are nothing I know out there (other than the rotary woofer) that will be able to give reference level at 10 Hz. If the subwoofer is not capable of reference level at 10 Hz, with or without the 10 Hz, it will not make any difference. This is especially true regarding measurable output differences - even with the reference level capable 10 Hz sub, with most program material, most of the energy is at other frequencies. So, with or without the 10 Hz, the measurable dB you get will not be measurably different.
post #2174 of 2712
Ok, so let me see if i have this understood:

If i have a sub system capable of reference level 10Hz output, then it DOES make a difference with 10Hz material in a source.

If the system is not 10Hz capable then it DOES NOT make a difference if the 10Hz info is in or not?

My understanding then is, only if a sub system can hit reference does it affect 10Hz material???

If it can produce 10Hz but NOT at reference then it makes no difference?
post #2175 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post

Ok, so let me see if i have this understood:

If i have a sub system capable of reference level 10Hz output, then it DOES make a difference with 10Hz material in a source.

If the system is not 10Hz capable then it DOES NOT make a difference if the 10Hz info is in or not?

My understanding then is, only if a sub system can hit reference does it affect 10Hz material???

If it can produce 10Hz but NOT at reference then it makes no difference?

First, few material have 10 Hz in the program. Second, even when present, the 10 Hz level relative to the sum of the energy at all the other bass frequencies is probably miniscule. Hence, even if the sub can reproduce the 10 Hz faithfully and thus maintain the same output relative to the other bass frequencies, the dB reading that you get on the SPL meter will not change significantly whether the 10 Hz is there or not. To further compound the situation, even at the same dB output, 10 Hz would be much harder to detect than the higher bass. The presence of the higher bass tend to have a great masking effect. That said, if the 10 Hz does cause your floor to heave so you can feel your sofa move, then it will make a difference. If you are on a concrete floor, probably not much difference. When I was demonstrating the ULS, the walls of the demo room seem to be quite sensitive to very low frequencies. Leaning against the wall, one can feel it moving to the very low frequency. Sitting in the listening chair on a concrete floor, I was not aware of any 10 Hz. Of course, if you can find a source that has a pretty pure 10 Hz energy at high levels without any masking from higher bass, the 10 Hz reference level capable system will make a huge difference. Just like in the movie Pulse where they have a strong quite pure 19 Hz heart beat, it made a big difference whether your sub can generate reference level 19 Hz. In movies that have some 20 Hz, but only together with a lot of higher bass that are much louder than the 20 Hz content, the presence or absence of 20 Hz would be subtle. But that is what audiophiles are - they want to make sure all signal are present in the right proportions irrespective of how subtle the effect may be.
post #2176 of 2712
Ok, I think I understand. So my next question is can a quad drive produce reference level SPLs at 10Hz in a typical listening room?
post #2177 of 2712
What do you consider a typical listening room? Also, what is meant by reference? 105 db? THX peak reference levels? That would be 115 db for bass.
post #2178 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by shadyJ View Post

What do you consider a typical listening room? Also, what is meant by reference? 105 db? THX peak reference levels? That would be 115 db for bass.

Yes,115dB for bass. Also, typical is very general, I know but that is what is used regularly by manufacturers. So let's just say, for argument's sake, a normal living room, 3000^3 ft.
post #2179 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post

Yes,115dB for bass. Also, typical is very general, I know but that is what is used regularly by manufacturers. So let's just say, for argument's sake, a normal living room, 3000^3 ft.

I don't think any subwoofer out there can put out 115 dB at 10 Hz, other than the rotary woofer.
post #2180 of 2712
I too don't think there is any SINGLE sub that can do that but there has to be a subwoofer SYSTEM that can. There are many members who claim they get that output from their system, so that is why I mentioned the quad drive, because I know how well regarded the quad drive is.
post #2181 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_hsu View Post


I don't think any subwoofer out there can put out 115 dB at 10 Hz, other than the rotary woofer.

How about multiple subwoofers in a room? Can the combined response equal 115db at 10hz. I think that's what kimwyn is asking, specifically for the quad drive.

Edit: he beat me too it!
post #2182 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kimwyn View Post

I too don't think there is any SINGLE sub that can do that but there has to be a subwoofer SYSTEM that can. There are many members who claim they get that output from their system, so that is why I mentioned the quad drive, because I know how well regarded the quad drive is.

They claim they get 115 dB at 10 Hz from their system?? What system do they have? If you have 8 LMS5400, then maybe (18" woofers with like 3 - 4" peak to peak linear excursion).
post #2183 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by dominguez1 View Post

How about multiple subwoofers in a room? Can the combined response equal 115db at 10hz. I think that's what kimwyn is asking, specifically for the quad drive.

Edit: he beat me too it!

Even a quad drive will not do 115 dB at 10 Hz. As I said, maybe 8 LMS5400 can do it.
post #2184 of 2712
When is the best time to come in for a demo? Are you ever open on the weekends?
post #2185 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by NumLock View Post

When is the best time to come in for a demo? Are you ever open on the weekends?

Tuesdays through Fridays are best. Mondays are bad (orders and phone calls accumulated over the weekend). If you cannot make it during regular office hours, arrangements can be made for after hours during weekdays.
post #2186 of 2712
Hi Dr. Hsu,

Heard back from an old friend in the sub business, Ken Kreisel, who started M&K. He confirmed their THX subs had 89 dB sensitivity (1m, 100 mV), in the Cal position, and 12-15 extra gain beyond that, so as to be in the same ballpark as most other subs. (Some have even more than that.)

Since Hsu has no distribution in Norway, I'll mention Kreisel has just launched his new products there.
post #2187 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Dressler View Post

Hi Dr. Hsu,

Heard back from an old friend in the sub business, Ken Kreisel, who started M&K. He confirmed their THX subs had 89 dB sensitivity (1m, 100 mV), in the Cal position, and 12-15 extra gain beyond that, so as to be in the same ballpark as most other subs. (Some have even more than that.)

Since Hsu has no distribution in Norway, I'll mention Kreisel has just launched his new products there.

Thanks for the info. Is that measured in half space outdoors?
post #2188 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_hsu View Post

Thanks for the info. Is that measured in half space outdoors?

He did not say, but I'd guess so, being the measurement fanatic that he is.

Mr. Mansfield (ex-THX) mentioned that THX subs usually came in a couple dB hotter than the specified 89 dB in their 3000 cu' IEC testing room @ 12'. But he did not say where it was placed in the room.
post #2189 of 2712
I have just received my ULS-15 and am going through the procedure of setting it up. I have a few questions...

How do I set the ULF trim? I don't understand what it actually does.

I have set the ULS volume to about 10 o'clock and manually set the sub-output level from my receiver (Pioneer VSX-1120K) to +4dB. Still I need to have the receiver's master volume quite loud for the sub to come on from standby mode. Am I doing something wrong?

I am using a Galaxy Audio CM-140 Check Mate SPL Meter and it has a 'C' mode for low frequencies. Should I use 'C' mode for measuring the sub-woofer? Or just stick to 'A' mode?
post #2190 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mandrake2003 View Post

I have just received my ULS-15 and am going through the procedure of setting it up. I have a few questions...

How do I set the ULF trim? I don't understand what it actually does.

I have set the ULS volume to about 10 o'clock and manually set the sub-output level from my receiver (Pioneer VSX-1120K) to +4dB. Still I need to have the receiver's master volume quite loud for the sub to come on from standby mode. Am I doing something wrong?

I am using a Galaxy Audio CM-140 Check Mate SPL Meter and it has a 'C' mode for low frequencies. Should I use 'C' mode for measuring the sub-woofer? Or just stick to 'A' mode?

Congrats for getting a ULS!

Did you set all the main speakers to small, 80 Hz crossover? Large speaker settings, or low crossover points reduces the amount of bass going to the sub. Also, feel free to leave the sub in the 'on' position instead of 'auto' position. The sub will draw the same power in either mode.

You definitely have to use the 'C' mode. A mode will not measure any bass frequencies.

Do post your room layout. Include all dimensions, distance of your ears from nearest walls when seated in your best LP, which spots in the room you can put the sub, and details of adjoining rooms that you can acoustically couple your main room to by keeping doors open, etc. Best deep bass performance may be when you leave those doors open!

Since you have a means of measuring, place the sub in your best LP, woofer at ear level. Play the test tones and put your SPL meter at the different locations where you can place the subwoofer. With the same test tone level, plot out the absolute SPL reading at all the possible locations for the subwoofer. Do a set of curves for doors closed, and doors open. If there are more than one door, you should do it for door 1 open + door 2 closed, door 1 closed + door 2 open, etc. Post all the graphs and I will help you pick the 'best' location for the sub, and which door(s) to keep open when listening.
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