or Connect
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › Official HSU ULS-15 Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Official HSU ULS-15 Thread - Page 84

post #2491 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

I mean the one you asked about, the PB12-NSD at 20Hz. In my comments, I'm aware that I'm comparing sealed vs ported body designs.
That's why the inclusion of the link to the calculator and the Xmax of the Hsu, ULS-15 so you can do the calculations for yourself. When one adds in the 5-6dB boost for co-location (within the length of frequency wave for 20Hz) and you add in the 3dB for the floor reinforcement, you have a more accurate performance figures for a sub in a Home Theater setup.
IIRC, the standard rule of thumb is, one 15" is equal to two 12" subs as to overall output, not including co-location boost and floor reinforcement. Between an understanding of co-location, floor reinforcement, the calculator and the information provided by data-bass, one should be able to get a decent idea of what's what with what. My subwoofer progression, in pairs is:
Klipsch, RW-12d > SVS, PB12-NSD > Hsu, ULS-15 > Funk, 18.0C.
(The Funk, 18.0C can be replaced by a SubMersive HP which has a pair of 15" drivers with, due to a longer Xmax (IIRC, 20mm vs 40.5mm), my opinion, a 3dB edge going to the Funk subwoofer.)
All of the above are in my opinion and all of the above are based on my flaky recollection of conversations with several different subwoofer manufactures. What is it you're wanting to do? Buy a SVS, PB12-NSD or a Hsu, ULS-15? ???
-

i originally wanted to buy two sealed svs sb12-nsds. But when looking at the 2m ground plane data i discovered that it just wouldn't have enough spl to provide the 109db max level. (we listen to movies 6db below reference), I wanted in my 2100cubic foot sealed theater room. However, i really wanted a sealed design over ported but just wasn't sure sealed could give me that peak spl level at 20hz. When i saw the dual uls-15s i am very interested in them. just want to make sure the peak spl of them in my room at 20hz will hit 109db.
post #2492 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by proudx View Post

So i would think 1 pb12-nsd would have higher spl output at 20hz that two uls 15s?

Suffice it to say in terms of clean output capability at 20Hz, a single PB12-NSD can hold its own with the Epik Empire (dual 15" woofers, 600 watt amplifier) and the Velodyne DD18+ (18" woofer, 1250 watt amplifier). Of course, as you move away from the tuning frequency of the PB12, the comparisons move out of its favor, but I think this shows the efficiency of a ported box at tuning.

With respect to the ULS-15, my best guess for its performance would be comparable to the PB13U in sealed mode +/- a dB or two.
post #2493 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by Steve1981 View Post

Suffice it to say in terms of clean output capability at 20Hz, a single PB12-NSD can hold its own with the Epik Empire (dual 15" woofers, 600 watt amplifier) and the Velodyne DD18+ (18" woofer, 1250 watt amplifier). Of course, as you move away from the tuning frequency of the PB12, the comparisons move out of its favor, but I think this shows the efficiency of a ported box at tuning.
With respect to the ULS-15, my best guess for its performance would be comparable to the PB13U in sealed mode +/- a dB or two.

Its a real shame hsu has not published 2m ground plane data for the hls-15s. This is getting confusing for me. I was set to buy 2 svs pb12-nsds but wish they were sealed. So I guess the next question is what combination of subs will get me to 109db max output in my 2100cubicfoot sealed off theater room (13wX18x9) at 20hz with low distortion?
post #2494 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by proudx View Post

i originally wanted to buy two sealed svs sb12-nsds. But when looking at the 2m ground plane data i discovered that it just wouldn't have enough spl to provide the 109db max level. (we listen to movies 6db below reference), I wanted in my 2100cubic foot sealed theater room. However, i really wanted a sealed design over ported but just wasn't sure sealed could give me that peak spl level at 20hz. When i saw the dual uls-15s i am very interested in them. just want to make sure the peak spl of them in my room at 20hz will hit 109db.

FWIW, I wouldn't spend a lot of time worrying about it for a few reasons:

1. Once you put a subwoofer or two into a smaller sealed room, a lot of interactions can happen which make it difficult to predict what you'll end up getting. However, in a 2100 cubic foot room, I'd bet you should get a fair amount of room gain which will boost the low end.

2. Unless you're planning on playing 20Hz sine waves, I'd not expect real world material that you play through your system to really stress 20Hz that heavily that you should weight your decision solely upon that. This is doubly important since I'd expect the ULS-15 to deliver more output in the vastly more heavily utilized 40-80Hz band, as well as in the infrasonic region.
Quote:
Originally Posted by proudx View Post

Its a real shame hsu has not published 2m ground plane data for the hls-15s.

Agree. I can only hope Josh gets his hands on one some day.
post #2495 of 2712

I must admit, although I thought I was relatively well-read with regards to audio concepts, I am unfamiliar with the term "2m ground plane data".  Can someone provide a link that explains this topic?

post #2496 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

I must admit, although I thought I was relatively well-read with regards to audio concepts, I am unfamiliar with the term "2m ground plane data".  Can someone provide a link that explains this topic?

Measurements taken at 2 meters outdoors with no nearby reflective surfaces; Josh Ricci over at Audioholics for example tests subwoofers in this manner. Basically it provides an even playing field and reasonably repeatable testing.
post #2497 of 2712

Thanks, I'll go over and read what Josh has to say.

post #2498 of 2712
post #2499 of 2712
Thanks, Steve, just what I was looking for.
post #2500 of 2712
I ordered a ULS-15 last week to use as an LFE sub in my system, and assuming that I can work things out with FedEx, I should have it in my grimy mitts tomorrow. I have not had the time to go through all 84 pages of this thread, but has anyone else had any experience using one for LFE only, and can offer any suggestions or advice for setup and calibration? I previously used a different sub for LFE, which blew out a year ago so I have been running without one since then, and will have some work to do to get this one set up properly. I did start a thread a few years ago where we discussed the best way to calibrate an LFE-only sub, so rather than rehashing that I am more interested in any suggestions that are specific to the ULS-15. Thanks!
post #2501 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by proudx View Post

Its a real shame hsu has not published 2m ground plane data for the hls-15s. This is getting confusing for me. I was set to buy 2 svs pb12-nsds but wish they were sealed. So I guess the next question is what combination of subs will get me to 109db max output in my 2100cubicfoot sealed off theater room (13wX18x9) at 20hz with low distortion?

Hello proudx, if you would like since you live in the area you could PM me and we could setup a GTG so you can hear what 3 ULS-15s and a Velodyne sound like in a very large open space.
post #2502 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbjork View Post

I ordered a ULS-15 last week to use as an LFE sub in my system, and assuming that I can work things out with FedEx, I should have it in my grimy mitts tomorrow. I have not had the time to go through all 84 pages of this thread, but has anyone else had any experience using one for LFE only, and can offer any suggestions or advice for setup and calibration? I previously used a different sub for LFE, which blew out a year ago so I have been running without one since then, and will have some work to do to get this one set up properly. I did start a thread a few years ago where we discussed the best way to calibrate an LFE-only sub, so rather than rehashing that I am more interested in any suggestions that are specific to the ULS-15. Thanks!

Hello sbjork, with the linear frequencies respond of the ULS-15s there is no need to set up a LFE-only sub. You just intergrate the dual setup into your system and they will be able to hit both the very low ULF and also provide good midbass at the same time.
post #2503 of 2712
Anyone know what a used ULS-15 in good shape is selling for these days?
post #2504 of 2712
If you ever found one for sale, I think something like $800 would be about right if it's in good shape. For these ID subs, 2/3 to 3/4 of the selling price seems to be a ballpark used price, if it isn't very old.
post #2505 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheatergeek View Post

Hello sbjork, with the linear frequencies respond of the ULS-15s there is no need to set up a LFE-only sub. You just intergrate the dual setup into your system and they will be able to hit both the very low ULF and also provide good midbass at the same time.

There is a need in my case, as I have full-range main speakers with integrated subs, namely, Vandersteen Quatros. Since the LFE channel cannot be downmixed into the mains in my setup, a seperate sub exclusively for the LFE channel is the only way to go. The challenge is finding correct placement and calibrating the thing properly, which may involve swapping cables so that I can send the signals from the test disc to it while finding the best location, then swapping back to set levels for the LFE channel. I was wondering if anyone else has a full-range system like mine who has added this as a sub for the LFE channel.
post #2506 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by AustinJerry View Post

Anyone know what a used ULS-15 in good shape is selling for these days?
I sold one on Audiogon 4 months ago in Rosenut with 1 year left of warranty for $700. The buyer used his company Fed Ex account to ship and he gave me an extra $50 for shipping material.
post #2507 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbjork View Post

There is a need in my case, as I have full-range main speakers with integrated subs, namely, Vandersteen Quatros. Since the LFE channel cannot be downmixed into the mains in my setup, a seperate sub exclusively for the LFE channel is the only way to go. The challenge is finding correct placement and calibrating the thing properly, which may involve swapping cables so that I can send the signals from the test disc to it while finding the best location, then swapping back to set levels for the LFE channel. I was wondering if anyone else has a full-range system like mine who has added this as a sub for the LFE channel.

I too have a full range system and I will repeat what I said before. Intergrate them without worrying about a dedicated ULF channel and they will do find. You asked for advice...I've been doing this for many years take it or leave it.
post #2508 of 2712
hometheatergeek is right. When you place your main speakers optimally for imaging, it is usually sub-optimal for bass. hence, even if your main speakers do have full-range capability, it does not hurt to have a true sub handle the bass.
post #2509 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbjork View Post

There is a need in my case, as I have full-range main speakers with integrated subs, namely, Vandersteen Quatros. Since the LFE channel cannot be downmixed into the mains in my setup, a seperate sub exclusively for the LFE channel is the only way to go.

confused.gif

What AVR are you using? It may be time to upgrade your AVR so you can manage your bass.

-
post #2510 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by dr_hsu View Post

hometheatergeek is right. When you place your main speakers optimally for imaging, it is usually sub-optimal for bass. hence, even if your main speakers do have full-range capability, it does not hurt to have a true sub handle the bass.

Like I said, I have Vandersteen Quatros. They have integrated subs which have a an 11-band compensation controls which have been calibrated by my dealer to provide reasonably flat response in my room all the way down to 20 hz., and in true stereo as well. They image beautifully and have the tightest, most well-integrated bass of any speakers that I have owned, all the way to the bottom octaves. Redirecting any of the bass from those speakers defeats the purpose of having them in the first place, and will harm, not help, their bass integration and overall sound quality (plus, running the signal through any other crossover prior to the external crossovers for the Quatros will ruin the phase coherency provided by Vandersteen's design.) I appreciate that hometheatergeek is trying to help, but he is very wrong in this case, Dr. Hsu! But Dolby does not allow the LFE channel to be redirected to the mains, so it necessitates another sub for the channel, and that is why I bought yours.

Some reading on Vandersteens and the Quatros for those who are unfamiliar with them:

http://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/706vandersteen/index.html
post #2511 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by hometheatergeek View Post

I too have a full range system and I will repeat what I said before. Intergrate them without worrying about a dedicated ULF channel and they will do find. You asked for advice...I've been doing this for many years take it or leave it.


I do appreciate that you are trying to help, but that kind of arrogant attitude is why I rarely come to the AVS forums, and frankly you are making me regret having done so again. I asked for specific advice which you have ignored, and you are insisting on giving me different advice that I do not need. For all of your years of experience, you clearly know nothing about Quatros and Vandersteen speakers in general, so please read my response to Dr. Hsu and check out the link that I provided to Stereophile's review of the speakers, which explains how they operate and are calibrated. Crossing over ANY part of the signal prior to the Vandersteen external crossovers defeats the purpose of having bought them in the first place, and is completely unecessary as well! I have been doing this for years as well; it would have helped if you had asked a simple question or two before making a snap judgment based on inaccurate assumptions. I am sure that you DO have a great deal of good experience to share and great advice to offer, when you understand the circumstances better.
post #2512 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post

confused.gif
What AVR are you using? It may be time to upgrade your AVR so you can manage your bass.
-


No AVR. I have a Krell Showcase preamp and a Showcase amplifier. Given that it does not have HDMI inputs or even the ability to decode Dolby TrueHD or DTS Master audio, I am using an Oppo BD-83SE and its analogue outputs into the 5.1 channel inputs on the Krell. Given what the Krells cost, and the fact they still operate well and with very good sound quality, I am not interested in spending the money on an equivalent newer processor. However, it would not help if I did, as the Dolby spec REQUIRES that the LFE channel be discarded and not remixed into the mains when selecting "no" for a subwoofer. Any AVR, processor or player that is operating according to Dolby specifications will do the same thing, so any upgraded equipment would still do the same thing. Trust me, I argued against that on these very AVS forums years ago when I bought the speakers, and was soundly beaten down by the AVS members! rolleyes.gif Both my Oppo and my Krell do have bass management options, but they (properly) do not allow remixing of the LFE channel. I do understand why Dolby requires that and at this point I accept the fact. However, it does mean that I if I want to have the LFE channel on movies I must have a seperate sub from my mains to get it, and I am quite content to get one. I have set up seperate LFE subs in my system before and was simply looking for anyone who had done something similar with Hsu's sub to see if they had any specific pointers.
post #2513 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbjork View Post

Given what the Krells cost, and the fact they still operate well and with very good sound quality, I am not interested in spending the money on an equivalent newer processor. However, it would not help if I did, as the Dolby spec REQUIRES that the LFE channel be discarded and not remixed into the mains when selecting "no" for a subwoofer.

As the saying goes: "It's your funeral." The point, by sticking with outdated technology, you're shooting yourself in the head. Don't make no sense if you're about sound quality.

As to Dolby Digital and bass management, I can't address that if one's using outdated technology. Life in the Home Theater is about THX reference standards, 1080p, HDMI, USB, web access, firmware upgrades, 3D video, upcoming 4k resolution, Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD, never knowing who's CODEC is coming up and bass management. And no, despite other people's feelings on the matter, this stuff ain't rocket science. That requires Trig/Calculus and a really big eraser. eek.gif

It don't matter what the speakers are capable of. That type of thinking is so 70's; "Time Waits For No One." I'm sure you know about Audyssey, MultEQ XT and XT32. The point, the Krell processor, as much as you rightfully love it has gotta go if you want a system worthy of 2012 technology. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news. The point, as we all know, our equipment is going die. Whether it be a death by failure or death by obsolescence. Death it still is. We just recently upgraded our AVR so "I" could have all the latest and greatest and there wasn't a single thing wrong with the old AVR other than it was "OLD." Oh hell, I'm old, does anybody want to see me in a speedo? Same thing.....well kinda. tongue.gif As least you can donate the old AVR.

Now back to technology as some people refuse to let their gear die. I do that with computers and drive myself crazy with patches, fixes and obscure programs to keep the little bugger going another six months. Why, it's a perfectly good computer, if you like computers that are four years old. smile.gif I have a state of the art computer that was custom put together in Feb2010. It cost a flipping bundle by comparison to today's technology. I love my computer. I did the research. I built and breathed life into it. It's personal. OTOH, my wife's laptop, that cost a third of the price is today it's equal and her recently acquired in the last few months laptop, box-stock off the shelves at Costco, is already being supplanted by today's newer technology. It's a conspiracy I tell's ya. tongue.gif

That being said, the best way for one, who refuses to upgrade their equipment, to integrate a LFE channel into their system is to simply plug a subwoofer into the sub-out, stick an Anti-Mode 8033 in between their pre-pro and subwoofer and let the Anti-Mode dial the LFE channel in for the measured room acoustics and be done with it. Now if you want, since you don't want to upgrade the Krell pre-pro, you can again hire someone to come out with their fancy analyzing gear, charge you a bundle, keep you dependent on them for years and years (maybe even decades) as they dial your room in. And remember, once dialed in, don't move those speakers. I might add, this is something one can do for themselves as I pray for the sake of your room acoustics, the acoustic technician has more than eleven filters in which to do it with as the Anti-Mode, 8033S II, for bass alone, has thirty-two filters. This of course is based on the assumption, they've upgraded their analyzing technology. Ya gotta love the concept of old technology, analyzing old technology, in a new technology driven world.

"What do you mean you're analyzing my outdated technology with outdated technology?!"

And just to show that we're simpatico, I too have one of these Anti-Mode marvels on order and it will be here shortly so I too can improve on the bass we already have. I also have on order a directional microphone setup so I can connect to a computer and analyze the room. The point, I hear you brother and I'm on your side regarding the need to properly integrate bass into one's sound system. I also understand the desire to hold onto properly functioning, outdated technology. The difference, I'm doing it with current technology. wink.gif

In a non-polemic way, I truly hope the above helps.

(My wife says I have a unique ability to make a short story long.)

.......................rolleyes.gif

-
Edited by BeeMan458 - 11/27/12 at 5:43am
post #2514 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeeMan458 View Post


As to Dolby Digital and bass management, I can't address that if one's using outdated technology. Life in the Home Theater is about THX reference standards, 1080p, HDMI, USB, web access, firmware upgrades, 3D video, upcoming 4k resolution, Dolby TrueHD/DTS-HD, never knowing who's CODEC is coming up and bass management.


It don't matter what the speakers are capable of.


That being said, the best way for one, who refuses to upgrade their equipment, to integrate a LFE channel into their system is to simply plug a subwoofer into the sub-out, stick an Anti-Mode 8033 in between their pre-pro and subwoofer and let the Anti-Mode dial the LFE channel in for the measured room acoustics and be done with it. Now if you want, since you don't want to upgrade the Krell pre-pro, you can again hire someone to come out with their fancy analyzing gear, charge you a bundle, keep you dependent on them for years and years (maybe even decades) as they dial your room in.


(My wife says I have a unique ability to make a short story long.)
.......................rolleyes.gif
-

To start with the last point first, you should listen to your wife! wink.gif You clearly have strong feelings regarding what you wrote about, but again, you are arguing against a strawman rather than addressing my rather simple question. I appreciate the sentiments, but they are misdirected in my case.

Regarding "using outdated technology" and codecs, no I am not using outdated technology; I am using my Oppo to decode all HD audio codecs, and it does an excellent job at that. Having the player do the decoding is a perfectly valid way to do things, and that is why I spent the extra money on the SE version, to maximize sound quality. The Showcase has an excellent preamp section, and "newer technology" does not change that fact. My player provides the "newer technology" ( and frankly I would be more likely to spend the money upgrading to the Oppo BD-105 rather than the processor.) But again, the fact that you cannot redirect the LFE to the mains has NOTHING to do with the age of the equipment; that was and still is Dolby's specs. It cannot be done on new equipment any more than it can be done on old equipment. Plus, I prefer to have an extra sub for LFE anyway and to let the mains reproduce their full-range signal.

"It don't matter what the speakers are capable of" is a statement that has so many problems that I hardly know where to begin, so I will have to let it go!

You are also making a lot of assumptions regarding things like Audyssey. There is more than one way to skin a cat in the home audio world. My speakers have been carefully calibrated to provide even bass response all the way down; they have the 11 band controls in them for a reason! Plus, my room was built from scratch specifically for audio, and it is carefully laid out with sound absorbtion in key places to provide a relatively even response throughout its entire range, not just in the bass, without excessive over-equalization. It can be done and the results can be very good indeed. Your method is a perfectly valid one, and arguably the best choice for most users, but it is hardly the only tool in the arsenal.

Of course, I am buying a sub to plug into the LFE output, namely, the HSU, which was the whole point of my original question! But so far, all I have gotten is hobby horses that do not take my situation into account. We all have our hobby horses in the audio world, and I have mine, too. They may not be the same as yours, and you may be convinced that yours are the only ones that matter, but I am allowed to respectfully disagree. I prefer to minimize electronic equalization and signal processing as much as I can, and to calibrate things "the hard way" to keep extra processing out of the signal chain if at all possible. All that I was looking for, since I have never used this sub before, was anyone in a similar situation (namely, someone who is using it as a seperate LFE sub) who has any words of advice. I had no interest in arguing hobby horses with anyone, and I should have known better than to come to the AVS forums, since that is generally all that you are going to get. Which is too bad, because there is a lot of good experience here, if people would learn how best to share it.

Peace out! biggrin.gif
post #2515 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbjork View Post

They may not be the same as yours, and you may be convinced that yours are the only ones that matter, but I am allowed to respectfully disagree.

I'm not having bass management issues. With all due respect, like it or not, one must ponder this point.

Quote:
I had no interest in arguing hobby horses with anyone, and I should have known better than to come to the AVS forums, since that is generally all that you are going to get.

Since I'm not arguing, there is no argument. You asked a question and I replied. I then defended my position and thoughtfully shared my logic. One is always welcome to keep their foibles and "Dadaisms."

Philosophically, one finds, life is easy.........if they want it to be. Good luck with treatments and the old school way of taming a room's acoustics.

<...................The Past........confused.gif........The Future.................>

-
post #2516 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbjork View Post

To start with the last point first, you should listen to your wife! wink.gif You clearly have strong feelings regarding what you wrote about, but again, you are arguing against a strawman rather than addressing my rather simple question. I appreciate the sentiments, but they are misdirected in my case.
Regarding "using outdated technology" and codecs, no I am not using outdated technology; I am using my Oppo to decode all HD audio codecs, and it does an excellent job at that. Having the player do the decoding is a perfectly valid way to do things, and that is why I spent the extra money on the SE version, to maximize sound quality. The Showcase has an excellent preamp section, and "newer technology" does not change that fact. My player provides the "newer technology" ( and frankly I would be more likely to spend the money upgrading to the Oppo BD-105 rather than the processor.) But again, the fact that you cannot redirect the LFE to the mains has NOTHING to do with the age of the equipment; that was and still is Dolby's specs. It cannot be done on new equipment any more than it can be done on old equipment. Plus, I prefer to have an extra sub for LFE anyway and to let the mains reproduce their full-range signal.
"It don't matter what the speakers are capable of" is a statement that has so many problems that I hardly know where to begin, so I will have to let it go!
You are also making a lot of assumptions regarding things like Audyssey. There is more than one way to skin a cat in the home audio world. My speakers have been carefully calibrated to provide even bass response all the way down; they have the 11 band controls in them for a reason! Plus, my room was built from scratch specifically for audio, and it is carefully laid out with sound absorbtion in key places to provide a relatively even response throughout its entire range, not just in the bass, without excessive over-equalization. It can be done and the results can be very good indeed. Your method is a perfectly valid one, and arguably the best choice for most users, but it is hardly the only tool in the arsenal.
Of course, I am buying a sub to plug into the LFE output, namely, the HSU, which was the whole point of my original question! But so far, all I have gotten is hobby horses that do not take my situation into account. We all have our hobby horses in the audio world, and I have mine, too. They may not be the same as yours, and you may be convinced that yours are the only ones that matter, but I am allowed to respectfully disagree. I prefer to minimize electronic equalization and signal processing as much as I can, and to calibrate things "the hard way" to keep extra processing out of the signal chain if at all possible. All that I was looking for, since I have never used this sub before, was anyone in a similar situation (namely, someone who is using it as a seperate LFE sub) who has any words of advice. I had no interest in arguing hobby horses with anyone, and I should have known better than to come to the AVS forums, since that is generally all that you are going to get. Which is too bad, because there is a lot of good experience here, if people would learn how best to share it.
Peace out! biggrin.gif

Are your Vandersteens calibrated in-room by your dealer? If so, what is used to measure. Perhaps he can also be of help integrating the ULS-15 into the mix. What was the method used on your former sub?

There is certainly more than one way to skin a cat, as you said. Although, the advice HTG and Dr. Hsu have given follows the more modern and conventional recommendation, in regards to bass management. I don't think what you are suggesting to do is incorrect, just unconventional and very difficult to do well and pay the dividends that I think you're looking for. You might consider the advice offered, based on personal and professional experience, as their honest and best recommendation to solve the problem. If it's not the advice you wanted to hear, there are other forum members that might be able to help with your specific goals. You might look into the Geddes method of subwoofer integration or contacting Vandersteen for specific help. In you're interested in a flat-response integration, check into measuring tools such as Omnimic and REW to help correct levels, distance, and phase issues.
post #2517 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by WhskyTangoFoxtrt View Post

Are your Vandersteens calibrated in-room by your dealer? If so, what is used to measure. Perhaps he can also be of help integrating the ULS-15 into the mix. What was the method used on your former sub?
There is certainly more than one way to skin a cat, as you said. Although, the advice HTG and Dr. Hsu have given follows the more modern and conventional recommendation, in regards to bass management. I don't think what you are suggesting to do is incorrect, just unconventional and very difficult to do well and pay the dividends that I think you're looking for. You might consider the advice offered, based on personal and professional experience, as their honest and best recommendation to solve the problem. If it's not the advice you wanted to hear, there are other forum members that might be able to help with your specific goals. You might look into the Geddes method of subwoofer integration or contacting Vandersteen for specific help. In you're interested in a flat-response integration, check into measuring tools such as Omnimic and REW to help correct levels, distance, and phase issues.

Thank you, but HTG and Dr. Hsu are really NOT giving a "conventional" recommendation in this case; maybe it is not crystal-clear here that the Quatros have very high quality, built in subwoofers, which were indeed calibrated by my dealer. What they are suggesting is daisy-chaining two (really, since the Quatros are a pair) subwoofers when there is absolutely no reason to do so. And unlike what others keep repeating, I am NOT having bass management issues! Dolby does not let you downmix the LFE to the mains by design, and I understand why and prefer to have a seperate sub for LFE. Hence my purchase of what I am sure will be an excellent sub for the purpose. I appreciate people offering their advice based on their experience, but that is precisely the problem: they have no experience with what I am trying to do, so their advice is not particularly useful. Having a seperate sub for LFE is hardly completely unknown; I know extreme setups which have subs on all four main channels as well as one for LFE.

Regardless, thank you for your input. I withdraw the question and regret asking it in the first place. Best wishes, all!
post #2518 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbjork View Post

But Dolby does not allow the LFE channel to be redirected to the mains, so it necessitates another sub for the channel, and that is why I bought yours.
Actually Dolby recommends that LFE be redirected to the mains in an AV processor (not a DVD player). I know, as I helped write that manual. If your processor maker chose not to support it, that is their decision to make. But many do so when you set the main L/R to large and subwoofer to none.

I have 4 of the ULS-15's and they can be used for LFE alone same as any other sub. There are no special issues to consider.
post #2519 of 2712
Quote:
Originally Posted by sbjork View Post

To start with the last point first, you should listen to your wife! wink.gif You clearly have strong feelings regarding what you wrote about, but again, you are arguing against a strawman rather than addressing my rather simple question. I appreciate the sentiments, but they are misdirected in my case.
Regarding "using outdated technology" and codecs, no I am not using outdated technology; I am using my Oppo to decode all HD audio codecs, and it does an excellent job at that. Having the player do the decoding is a perfectly valid way to do things, and that is why I spent the extra money on the SE version, to maximize sound quality. The Showcase has an excellent preamp section, and "newer technology" does not change that fact. My player provides the "newer technology" ( and frankly I would be more likely to spend the money upgrading to the Oppo BD-105 rather than the processor.) But again, the fact that you cannot redirect the LFE to the mains has NOTHING to do with the age of the equipment; that was and still is Dolby's specs. It cannot be done on new equipment any more than it can be done on old equipment. Plus, I prefer to have an extra sub for LFE anyway and to let the mains reproduce their full-range signal.
"It don't matter what the speakers are capable of" is a statement that has so many problems that I hardly know where to begin, so I will have to let it go!
You are also making a lot of assumptions regarding things like Audyssey. There is more than one way to skin a cat in the home audio world. My speakers have been carefully calibrated to provide even bass response all the way down; they have the 11 band controls in them for a reason! Plus, my room was built from scratch specifically for audio, and it is carefully laid out with sound absorbtion in key places to provide a relatively even response throughout its entire range, not just in the bass, without excessive over-equalization. It can be done and the results can be very good indeed. Your method is a perfectly valid one, and arguably the best choice for most users, but it is hardly the only tool in the arsenal.
Of course, I am buying a sub to plug into the LFE output, namely, the HSU, which was the whole point of my original question! But so far, all I have gotten is hobby horses that do not take my situation into account. We all have our hobby horses in the audio world, and I have mine, too. They may not be the same as yours, and you may be convinced that yours are the only ones that matter, but I am allowed to respectfully disagree. I prefer to minimize electronic equalization and signal processing as much as I can, and to calibrate things "the hard way" to keep extra processing out of the signal chain if at all possible. All that I was looking for, since I have never used this sub before, was anyone in a similar situation (namely, someone who is using it as a seperate LFE sub) who has any words of advice. I had no interest in arguing hobby horses with anyone, and I should have known better than to come to the AVS forums, since that is generally all that you are going to get. Which is too bad, because there is a lot of good experience here, if people would learn how best to share it.
Peace out! biggrin.gif

The suggestion of getting an antimode and some type of measuring system like an onnimic is a good one in your situation. You can measure how the sub is interacting with your room and deal with room issues using the filters in the antimode. If you don't want to add the processing and feel that you want to handle it with your room treatments go with an Omni mic or SPL meter, level match the sub and test sub placement. If you don't want to get into measurements see if the dealer can come in and recalibrate with the sub or hire someone to calibrate it. If you had someone come in to calibrate your speakers this may be the best route. If you want to talk to people that are running stereo subs with a distinct LFE sub it's probably better to just start a new thread on that so you have the best chance of getting a response to your issue. What makes your situation unique is the stereo subs and LFE sub without calibration software not what particular brand of sub you are using for the LFE sub. As you mentioned you are more interested in people's opinions that are trying to do what you are doing so try and reach them directly, you are just limiting the probability of reaching a person like that in an owners thread. Another option would be to check with other owners of your speakers as they have probably had to do the exact same thing.
post #2520 of 2712

Adding a fourth ULS-15 – my experiences

 

 

 

Since the ULS-15 is on sale right now, I treated myself to a fourth one as an early Christmas present.  It wasn’t as easy as I thought to integrate into my existing system, so I thought I would share my experiences.

 

My initial setup was two subs on the front wall, slightly inside of the left and right mains, equidistant from the MLP at 11 feet.  The third sub was along the limited back wall space, right behind the MLP at 3.5 feet.  All three subs were gain-matched (procedure).  The room is calibrated using Audyssey MultEQ XT32, with the front subs on Sub1 and the rear sub on Sub2.  Even with the Audyssey calibration, the post-calibration frequency response at the splice with the mains could be significantly improved by adjusting the calculated sub distances.  The frequency response prior to installing the fourth sub was:

 

 

700

 

 

 

I received the new ULS-15 on Monday.  My first challenge was finding the right place to put it.  My desire was to have the third and fourth subs equidistant from the MLP, as are the front two subs.  This limited placement options to only two:  side-by-side, or stacked.  I have little experience with stacked subs, and have read some negative things about stacking, so I decided on side-by-side, right behind the MLP at 3.5 feet.

 

Co-locating the subs introduced another major issue to overcome.  As you know, when subs are placed side-by-side, there is an approximate 6dB gain.  So, when I ran the Audyssey calibration, the trim on sub2 was set at -12dB.  That is unacceptable—when a trim is maxed out, the gains on the subs must be turned down.  What a joy it is, hauling four 84lb subs to the center of the room to adjust the gain-matching!  I dialed down the gain for each sub to 85dB, from 90dB, re-ran the Audyssey calibration a second time, and this time the trim on sub2 was no longer maxed out.

 

Now, there is still another issue that needs to be resolved.  The trims for the two sub channels are now +2 and -7.5, a difference of 9.5dB.  The objective of gain-matching, of course, is to ensure that no sub runs out of steam before the others do.  So, with this large difference between sub1 and sub2, there is a chance that as I approach reference levels, the two subs in front (at +2) will hit the wall before the subs in the rear.  One option, which has been advocated by Craig John (a very knowledgeable person when it comes to sub configuration), is to take the difference between the two trim settings, halve it, and adjust the sub1 and sub 2 trims by raising one and lowering the other by one half of the difference.  I need to do some experimenting over the next several days to see if I want to leave the trims where they are, or adjust them using Craig’s recommendation.  Results will be posted later.

 

In the meantime, I made one other tweak that may be of interest.  I have been reading up on various articles on sub placement theory, and have re-located the front two subs according to the “1/4 width” approach (still equidistant from the MLP).  Here is a diagram of the placement:

 

 

 

700

 

 

 

So, what is the result of this exercise?  Here is the latest measurement, which I think shows reasonable improvement.  You be the judge.  Comments or questions welcome!

 

 

 

 

700

 

 

 

 

 

700

 

Pics of front and rear placements:

 

700

 

700

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 


Edited by AustinJerry - 12/13/12 at 9:40am
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
AVS › AVS Forum › Audio › Subwoofers, Bass, and Transducers › Official HSU ULS-15 Thread