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Pioneer BDP-320/BDP-23FD Owner's Thread - Page 9

post #241 of 6384
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdamon View Post

The SD DVD I was experiencing the layer change with is Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers Extended version. The layer change pause occurred during both discs. This problem was a deal breaker for me so the player is on it's way to meet its maker. Since the Oppo is not yet available, I'm thinking about the Samsung PD3600 for a short term solution until a better alternative is available.

Thanks for all the comments!

So that was you on Amazon. I curse you for being the one to get me to test for a layer pause. I'm really debating sending mine back.

I am hoping that a FW update could help the layer change pause. I don't know if it is technicaly possible and I don't if Pioneer will be putting much effort into it.
post #242 of 6384
Thread Starter 
Quote:


So that was you on Amazon. I curse you for being the one to get me to test for a layer pause. I'm really debating sending mine back.

I am hoping that a FW update could help the layer change pause. I don't know if it is technicaly possible and I don't if Pioneer will be putting much effort into it.

It is probably possible to increase the buffer with existing memory, but I would strongly caution folks to buy on the promise of the possibility of future firmware. There was (is) massive frustration with this a similar promise of dts hd ma decoding on the 51/05.
post #243 of 6384
I rarely watch DVD's if I can help it, there are more than enough new BD's being released - too many for me to handle themselves, let alone DVD's on top of them. I have a lot of DVD's which are slowly being replaced by BD's, or just tossed because I don't watch them to make room on the shelf. So, really, DVD pause doesn't bother me that much. I only watch DVD's if I must and there is no BD version yet. Which is becoming more rare by the day.
post #244 of 6384
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

It is probably possible to increase the buffer with existing memory, but I would strongly caution folks to buy on the promise of the possibility of future firmware. There was (is) massive frustration with this a similar promise of dts hd ma decoding on the 51/05.

I agree that customers should buy a product based on its current state and the BDP-320's current state makes it a player that I wouldn't recommend without a strong caution.

All said, I'm still hoping that the bdp-320's larger ROM, which was credited with its out-of-the-box dts hd ma support, allows future FW to push its performance beyond the 51/05.

As it is, the reduced height, network FW update ability, and allegedly larger ROM was enough of a reason for me to purchase the 320 over the 51.
post #245 of 6384
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gearguy77 View Post

I agree that customers should buy a product based on its current state and the BDP-320's current state makes it a player that I wouldn't recommend without a strong caution.

All said, I'm still hoping that the bdp-320's larger ROM, which was credited with its out-of-the-box dts hd ma support, allows future FW to push its performance beyond the 51/05.

As it is, the reduced height, network FW update ability, and allegedly larger ROM was enough of a reason for me to purchase the 320 over the 51.

it would be great if they could sort it out, but i am a big proponent of pouring a ltitle cold water on the slightly irrational optimism some folks have of "couldn't firmware do it?" The dvd layer change is annoying, but not a deal killer for me by any stretch of the imagine. Pre-oppo, I preferred the 51 on sd dvd playback despite the 3 second pause because it seemd like a minor foible compared to the very good upscaling. Truth be told, the oppo does not have this issue, but it is also nearly $200 more than the 320 at current street prices.
post #246 of 6384
Yeah, but for that $200 you get SACD, DVD Audio, VRS Scaling, faster speed, easier to use user interface, and better manual and support. I'd say it is worth it.

CD
post #247 of 6384
How do Sony players compare to Pioneer in terms of PQ and upscaling?
post #248 of 6384
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Owlet View Post

How do Sony players compare to Pioneer in terms of PQ and upscaling?

It's been my impression that Pioneers (51 and 320) are superior to the Sonys (S1/300/350) in upscaling in my opinion. For BD at 1080p 24fps, I think the difference would be tiny save tweaking options.
post #249 of 6384
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cattledog View Post

Yeah, bit for that $200 you get SACD, DVD Audio, VRS Scaling, faster speed, easier to use user interface, and better manual and support. I'd say it is worth it.

CD

i think you nailed the value proposition/market niche of the oppo. I still stand by my statement that the 320 is the best current player after the oppo on a quality for your dollar basis. Its ability to upscale exceeds my Panny 55, which i understand offers the same upscaling ability as the 60/80. Current street prices put the 320 in direct competition with the panny 80, samsung 3600, and the sony 560. I think it fares very well with all three. With Samsung dropping the reon, the Pioneer offers some of the best upscaling at the pricepoint. The 51 is still the real bargain if you can live with its size and have faith the dts hd ma fw is coming.
post #250 of 6384
Yes, that was me on Amazon. I returned the Pioneer and picked up the Sammy 3600. Sadly, same layer shift pause on LotR. Why would the companies be releasing players with a problem that we haven't seen since 1st gen DVD players? It's not like this was an unknown.

I guess I'll just test some more DVDs and see if I can live with it since the majority of my movie watching is BluRay anyway.
post #251 of 6384
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdamon View Post

Yes, that was me on Amazon. I returned the Pioneer and picked up the Sammy 3600. Sadly, same layer shift pause on LotR. Why would the companies be releasing players with a problem that we haven't seen since 1st gen DVD players? It's not like this was an unknown.

I guess I'll just test some more DVDs and see if I can live with it since the majority of my movie watching is BluRay anyway.

Their focus is on BD, not DVD. If you look at the upscaling abilities of the early BD players, you could tell the focus/engineering was almost exclusively on BD.
post #252 of 6384
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by tdamon View Post

Yes, that was me on Amazon. I returned the Pioneer and picked up the Sammy 3600. Sadly, same layer shift pause on LotR. Why would the companies be releasing players with a problem that we haven't seen since 1st gen DVD players? It's not like this was an unknown.

I guess I'll just test some more DVDs and see if I can live with it since the majority of my movie watching is BluRay anyway.

And I hope you torch the sammy as well! ha!
post #253 of 6384
With all the talk of slow start up and the layer transition delay, I've changed my mind and I'm going to spend the extra $200 for the Oppo. Too bad, I really had this one on my radar, but it sounds like they've just taken an older player and updated the audio (I don't care about BD-Live at all).
post #254 of 6384
I recently had my samsung 2500 drive die on me, and finally got my refund back for my performance plan. I've been reading this forum today after stopping in to my local best buy, gathering more information on the 51 and 320 units. They have the 51 for 299, the 320 for 399. All this talk about the oppo has me interested in it, however what would the time line be like for actually getting one? I have been without a blu-ray player since late February.

If I'm connecting the player with analog outs to a Harman/Kardon AVR 630, would the wolfson DAC of the 51 be any better or worse than the burr-browns on the 320?

Thanks.
post #255 of 6384
Quote:
Originally Posted by samsungidc View Post

I've been reading this forum today after stopping in to my local best buy, gathering more information on the 51 and 320 units. They have the 51 for 299, the 320 for 399.

The 51 is cheaper than that direct from Pioneer. I would try to get BB to at least match the manufacturer's direct price if you're considering it.
post #256 of 6384
Quote:
Originally Posted by KenMar View Post

With all the talk of slow start up and the layer transition delay, I've changed my mind and I'm going to spend the extra $200 for the Oppo. Too bad, I really had this one on my radar, but it sounds like they've just taken an older player and updated the audio (I don't care about BD-Live at all).

I feel exactly the same. I was excited about the new pioneer BD until I found out that there is not that much of a difference between the new and old generation.
Today I got the invite from oppo and pulled the trigger.
post #257 of 6384
Quote:
Originally Posted by pharmd View Post

I feel exactly the same. I was excited about the new pioneer BD until I found out that there is not that much of a difference between the new and old generation.
Today I got the invite from oppo and pulled the trigger.

I too got the Oppo invite today. The Oppo is on order and I'll be sending the BDP-320 back.

I really tried to convince myself that the 320 was the right player. I was almost convinced but the Oppo invite renewed the debate for me. It wasn't only their superior specs that I was impressed by, but also their exceptionaly fast responses to my email queries. Oppo responded to my emails in under 5 minutes.

When I first placed my order, I wrote that I make a point of only buying proven, well reviewed products, and that I was buying the 320 with my fingeres crossed. We'll I think I learned my lesson.
post #258 of 6384
these players are barely out & some of you are switching to the Oppo already?

Doesn't bode well for Pioneer. Same arguments used here as used after the BDP-09's announcement. No SACD - no DVD-A. I bought the 09 anyway...but it would have been a lot nicer and a no-brainer true reference player if Pioneer had included SACD/DVDA

I believer Pioneer's got its head in the sand thinking these audio formats don't matter anymore & the Pioneer-Sharp joint venture will end up going low end to capture market. The enthusiasts will end up going real hi-end with the Denon or to Oppo. Oppo will end up being a huge winner in the mid-range enthusiast battleground based on what you folks are already doing.

Shame Pioneer didn't get its act together on the 05/51 FW before now - since that damage will cause more to desert the brand.

Walkamo, is anyone reading & listening?

ss9001
post #259 of 6384
Quote:
Originally Posted by ss9001 View Post

these players are barely out & some of you are switching to the Oppo already?

Doesn't bode well for Pioneer. Same arguments used here as used after the BDP-09's announcement. No SACD - no DVD-A. I bought the 09 anyway...but it would have been a lot nicer and a no-brainer true reference player if Pioneer had included SACD/DVDA

I believer Pioneer's got its head in the sand thinking these audio formats don't matter anymore & the Pioneer-Sharp joint venture will end up going low end to capture market. The enthusiasts will end up going real hi-end with the Denon or to Oppo. Oppo will end up being a huge winner in the mid-range enthusiast battleground based on what you folks are already doing.

Shame Pioneer didn't get its act together on the 05/51 FW before now - since that damage will cause more to desert the brand.

Walkamo, is anyone reading & listening?

ss9001

I would have been very appreciative had Pioneer forgone DVD-A, SACD, and the myriad of codecs supported buy Oppo if instead they had sunk more effort into improving upon the core features of DVD and Blu-Ray. Insead they rehashed the 51/05 with added network and a smaller chassis.

The Oppo has many features I never expect to use, but it does DVD and Blu-Ray exceedingly well (or so I read). Plus one needs not wonder if Oppo is listening as we seem to do about Pioneer. Oppo's business model relies on customer input and feedback.

Just to be clear the 320 is a fantastic, although slow, BDP that plays very nice with the 9G Kuro. Unfortunately, I have 10 years worth of DVDs yet only 6 BD. I don't plan on rebuying any movies and the majority of movies in my queue are DVD.
post #260 of 6384
I also got the oppo priority order e-mail today. Since I can't return the 320 (eBay purchase), I ordered the oppo for a friend who wanted it. Lucky him!
post #261 of 6384
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheedoe View Post

I also got the oppo priority order e-mail today. Since I can't return the 320 (eBay purchase), I ordered the oppo for a friend who wanted it. Lucky him!

I own both the pioneer 320 and the oppo and want to provide everyone with a little perspective. BluRay PQ at 1080p 24fps is identical. SD DVD is slightly better on the oppo. If your tv is 46" or smaller, I think you will struggle to see the difference. The Oppo is much faster than the 320. We're still measuring in seconds, but the one real annoying slow spot on the 320 is the eject button when powered off.

For audio enthusiasts, the oppo is your only choice for sacd and dvda playback. For folks who want a very good player for BD and SD DVD, both will work. Currently the Pio 320 is $200 less on amazon than the cost of a shipped Oppo. That 40% should not be neglected. I think folks need to compare the 320 less to the oppo and more to the panny 80 or the samsung 3600, which i think it blows away.

Pioneer should have quickened the load times. Shame on them, shame on them. It is what makes this a $325 player and not a $400 player. They should have given it a gimmick - netflix streaming or dvd a playback. Instead they gave us a very good, but slow player that will struggle to find a place between mass market consumers at best buy and folks who dork out on forums and will want an oppo because it has a few more bells and whistles.

I standby my repeated statement that this is the best runnerup to the oppo in regards to PQ/AQ at current prices which will inevitably dip below $300 in time. If it had quicker load times and a gimmick, it could justify a $350 to $375 price point.
post #262 of 6384
Usually, on owner's threads, there's an initial high level of enthusiasm and praise, many new owners jumping in and happy with their purchase.

Eventually, inevitable problems occur, and some people will be disappointed. In the 05/51 thread, there was a lot of high praise for a month or longer, until disc glitches, issues & complaints surfaced. Complaints have continued for nearly a yr after the players were announced. Pioneer certainly has had time to "get it right" this time.

I'm quite surprised how short the honeymoon seems to be for these new players & how quickly several are being returned for the Oppo.

I can tell everyone that the 09 certainly is in a different league than the 05/51 and it should be for the price. But to read how soon these new models are being compared to the Oppo suggests Pioneer is going to have a tough time in the marketplace....Oppo's $500 player competing with $2000 -$4000 players. And Pioneer's $300-400 players competing with $200 players. Not a lot of fun there.

"As good as" or "almost good as" PQ compared to the Oppo is simply good enough if they want to succeed. Since they abandoned offering full audio formats as features, barely could include DTS-MA and still have slow response times what do these new players do better or differently? Why should someone buy one over a Samsung, Sony, Panasonic or even LG?

I hope they do well. I'd like to see these new players succeed.

ss9001
post #263 of 6384
Winston, you have been a great help with the information you have provided on the bdp-320. I am not so concerned with the loading times or the fact that the pioneer cant play dvda. what impresses me is the effort that went into the oppo's production as well as its impressive chip set (anchor bay). I just bought a 9g kuro and would like to mate it with the best bd player i can afford. oppo provides high grade components for a relative low price. I would love to have the 09 ....but at $2200 its way more then i can afford. Additionaly, if oppo's dvd players are any indication the 83 should hold its value very well.

Do you plan on returning your oppo?
post #264 of 6384
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by pharmd View Post

Winston, you have been a great help with the information you have provided on the bdp-320. I am not so concerned with the loading times or the fact that the pioneer cant play dvda. what impresses me is the effort that went into the oppo's production as well as its impressive chip set (anchor bay). I just bought a 9g kuro and would like to mate it with the best bd player i can afford. oppo provides high grade components for a relative low price. I would love to have the 09 ....but at $2200 its way more then i can afford. Additionaly, if oppo's dvd players are any indication the 83 should hold its value very well.

Do you plan on returning your oppo?

I love my oppo and will hold onto it until it dies or they make something better. It is a superior player to the pioneer 320 in almost everyway. Then again, the pioneer is $200 less (I paid $175 less for the pioneer). I debated about trying to wait out on the oppo for my bedroom or use the pioneer 320. In the end, i could not make the value proposition for a 40" display where we watch movies occassionally and tend to fall asleep. In my main set up, it's a no brainer if you have the $520 or so to shell out. That's a lot of money for a player that will not be the 'best' thing or cheaper in less than a year. Then again, so is $325.

I am not brand loyal or hell bent of expenditure justification - the pioneer needed faster load times and a gimmick to compete with the oppo - even at $400 msrp. That said, I know I would choose my 320 over my panny 55 time and time again on sd dvd upscaling alone. I guess my whole point is oppo is in a class above the pioneer 320. The pioneer 320 is in a class with the Panny 80, sony 560, lg 390, and sammy 3600. I feel very confident it is the best option in this $325ish range.
post #265 of 6384
Thread Starter 
This feature might actually offer some value afterall, but I believe you need to do a hard reset on the 320 when the kuro is already on. I got a message that it had detected the appropriate settings. When I scrolled through the menu, it had chosen just about everything correctly. In respects of video tweaking, it basically left the video adjust feature on Pioneer PDP. Need to try it with a blu ray disc as well
post #266 of 6384
Okay, guys, I have a few questions and they have nothing to do with the Oppo BDP-83.

1) How much hardware do the Pioneer BDP-51/05FD and BDP-23FD share?

2) Both the BDP-51FD and BDP-05FD feature the jitter-less 2 channel CD audio transport. Pioneer touts that one of the features of the BDP-23FD is jitter-less transport of all (2 channel and multi-channel) PCM audio. Does this include high resolution audio such as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio that has been decoded in the player? And, if the two players share similar hardware, is it reasonable to believe that all three could support jitter-less audio for multiple channels (decoded or otherwise), not simply 2 channel CD audio?

3) Assuming the above is true, who would find it appeasing if Pioneer would add such a feature to the BDP-51/05FD models via a firmware upgrade as a big "thank you" to those who stuck it out owning these Blu-ray players given the circumstances of the firmware development timetable? In my opinion, it would totally mitigate the slower loading times of these players and I'd consider buying one even after I've said some harsh words about these products.

4) Currently, Pioneer's Elite receiver line only supports the PQLS jitter-less playback feature with 2 channel CD audio. Given that the BDP-23FD supports the PQLS feature for multi-channel audio (as stated above), what receiver would make use of this? Does Pioneer intend to release a new line of Elite receivers with this feature? Couldn't the current crop (SC-05/07) support something like this with a firmware upgrade as well? Denon plans to issue a free firmware upgrade (Denon Link 4th) to those receivers in its product lineup that support Denon Link 3rd as a showing of goodwill to those who owned the latest and greatest at the time of their purchase but are being left behind from features such as the new Audyssey DSX. Denon Link is all about jitter-less audio playback over an ethernet cable between CD/DVD player and the receiver. Pioneer seems to have figured out how to do jitter-less audio playback via optical and HDMI (check out Hi-Fi News magazine's write-up and measurements--they're very impressive numbers and reflect an edge in Pioneer's engineering) so I would hope that adding more channels would be trivial.

I wouldn't mind seeing the firmware upgrade for the receivers and Blu-ray players (assuming if any of this is possible in the first place) even if I had to pay a nominal fee (Denon added the Audyssey technologies to their AVR-3808CI and AVR-4308CI products for $100 firmware upgrade if you bought it before a certain period and made it free to new owners sometime thereafter).

Thoughts?

Thanks.
post #267 of 6384
Thread Starter 
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
1) How much hardware do the Pioneer BDP-51/05FD and BDP-23FD share?
They share the same video chip (SoC) but DACs are different (320 with BurrBrowns and 51 with Wolfson). Unsure about power supply and other componentry.

2) Both the BDP-51FD and BDP-05FD feature the jitter-less 2 channel CD audio transport. Pioneer touts that one of the features of the BDP-23FD is jitter-less transport of all (2 channel and multi-channel) PCM audio. Does this include high resolution audio such as Dolby TrueHD and DTS-HD Master Audio that has been decoded in the player? And, if the two players share similar hardware, is it reasonable to believe that all three could support jitter-less audio for multiple channels (decoded or otherwise), not simply 2 channel CD audio?
The Jitter-less transport only applies when you're bitstreaming to a Pioneer Receiver. Pioneer describes it as follows:
HDMI™ Precision Quartz Lock System (PQLS) Jitterless Transmission
(2-ch): By HDMI connection with a compatible Pioneer A/V receiver,
CD music is precisely reproduced with minimum jitter.

The 23FD gets this description in addition to the above:
Exclusive Jitter Reduction Circuit: Utilizing a Pioneer developed
IC, this circuit digitally reshapes the waveform of the audio clock to
greatly reduce jitter for all content.


3) Assuming the above is true, who would find it appeasing if Pioneer would add such a feature to the BDP-51/05FD models via a firmware upgrade as a big "thank you" to those who stuck it out owning these Blu-ray players given the circumstances of the firmware development timetable? In my opinion, it would totally mitigate the slower loading times of these players and I'd consider buying one even after I've said some harsh words about these products.

Would be great, but they need some obsolescene ofolder models to get folks to move towards the 320/23FD. The slow load times of the 320 and layer change hurt its case to begin with

4) Currently, Pioneer's Elite receiver line only supports the PQLS jitter-less playback feature with 2 channel CD audio. Given that the BDP-23FD supports the PQLS feature for multi-channel audio (as stated above), what receiver would make use of this?

My understanding is it has to be a Pioneer receiver just like kuro link needs a pioneer kuro plasma

Does Pioneer intend to release a new line of Elite receivers with this feature? Couldn't the current crop (SC-05/07) support something like this with a firmware upgrade as well? Unsure and would defer to someone with a Pio receiver - I am running Onkyos
post #268 of 6384
Thread Starter 
Updated the first Post for FAQ.

If there is one missing, please let me know and i will add it. i want to avoid any oppo comparisons in the faq. they have a knack to choke threads.
post #269 of 6384
Did the 23fd get delayed ?..I thought it was supposed to come out in April then i heard May...i am really getting tired of waiting Almost tempted to to pick up the Denon 2500btc since i can get it on closeout at work for a real good deal
post #270 of 6384
I might order the Pioneer BDP-320 either tonight or tomorrow that is if I don't like the my Oppo BDP-83(arriving today) or that I feel that it is not worth the extra money over the 320. I just want a blu-ray player with excellent 2 channel analog sound for cd playback, excellent video performance for blu-ray and dvd, and better build quality than my BD60 which I'm selling on ebay.
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