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Pioneer BDP-320/BDP-23FD Owner's Thread - Page 20

post #571 of 6328
5/29/09 at 7:20pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom V View Post

If you're familiar with the Sony BDP-S350 - where would you rank the Pioneer's you've seen in comparison?


In terms of PQ, the 120 is similar to the 350. The 23/320 are superior at upscaling in my opinion. The 320 can do hd codecs over analogues. The 320/23 have great tweaking menus for picture adjustment. I would say the 120 is similar to the 350/360. I would recommend the panny 60 over all three. The 320 are in a class above the sony 350 in my opinion
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post #572 of 6328
5/29/09 at 8:27pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

In terms of PQ, the 120 is similar to the 350. The 23/320 are superior at upscaling in my opinion. The 320 can do hd codecs over analogues. The 320/23 have great tweaking menus for picture adjustment. I would say the 120 is similar to the 350/360. I would recommend the panny 60 over all three. The 320 are in a class above the sony 350 in my opinion

When you recommend the Panasonic over "all three" are you referring to the Pioneer 120, 320 and Elite 23, OR the Pio 120 and Sony 350/360?

I have the S350, and it has been ok. Got it last Thanksgiving essentially as a place-holder Profile 2 machine until the next generation of Pioneer BDPs was released. Amazon had the 350 on a special offer package at half MSRP. Since the Elite 09 is out of the question, have been waiting for the 23 to pair with my PRO-111. Will cycle the S350 into the den with an old 720p Sony LCD rear screen projector.
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post #573 of 6328
5/29/09 at 8:38pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom V View Post

When you recommend the Panasonic over "all three" are you referring to the Pioneer 120, 320 and Elite 23, OR the Pio 120 and Sony 350/360?

I have the S350, and it has been ok. Got it last Thanksgiving essentially as a place-holder Profile 2 machine until the next generation of Pioneer BDPs was released. Amazon had the 350 on a special offer package at half MSRP. Since the Elite 09 is out of the question, have been waiting for the 23 to pair with my PRO-111. Will cycle the S350 into the den with an old 720p Sony LCD rear screen projector.

My opinion is the pioneer 320 is one of the best in $300 mark (sony 560, panny 80, lg bd390, samsung 3600). The sony 350 is closer to the 120 in quality. If you're going for an entry level player like the 350, try the panny 80.
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post #574 of 6328
5/29/09 at 8:41pm
Could anyone tell me if the 23/320 play mkv files? Also does that PQLS improve sound quality?
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post #575 of 6328
5/29/09 at 9:16pm
Did anyone try T2: Skynet Edition with the new firmware?
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post #576 of 6328
5/29/09 at 10:50pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

Was at Bestbuy and thought for sh*ts and giggles I would give the 120 a run for its money.

The pros: Quickstart works - the disc tray opens immediately when you press eject. It has to be right at a second or two. It loads relatively quickly - QOS loaded in a respectable 42 seconds. It struggled with POCI - taking about 1 min 27 secs to get to the disney splash screen.

42 second load for QOS is 38 seconds faster than my 05 does it! 80 seconds to the red attention screen. Pioneer's load times are horrid so at least that is an improvement.
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post #577 of 6328
5/30/09 at 6:40am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom V View Post

Thanks for the info. No idea why you're not getting Surround. Audio output settings in the 120? An incorrect selection on your receiver?

Have you considered the 320 instead of the 120 or 05? Seems like that would be the way to go if you wanted to stay with Pioneer, but didn't go up to the Elite 23. Profile 2, which the 05 doesn't have, might be a useful feature in the future. The 05 can't be upgraded.

I'm looking into the 320 or 23 because they'll output 7.1 analog. Don't have an HDMI receiver, but my old Pioneer DD/DTS does have 7.1 analog inputs, so will hear the new HD audio formats without buying new gear.

If you're familiar with the Sony BDP-S350 - where would you rank the Pioneer's you've seen in comparison?

I have tried what I believe to be every possible setting combination, either it is not capable of doing HDMI in anything but stereo mode when connected component for video or the instructions are so cryptic that the machine is worth returning on that basis alone.

I did briefly have the 320 and it wouldn't do audio over HDMI when connected with component for video.

I had the Sony BDP-350 twice and their menu system is a pain for me but comparison wise, I am not a good person to ask. I can tell you the difference when it comes to SD players but pq differences among BD players are not a proven commodity IMO.

I do have an HDMI receiver so I have more flexibility in choice than you, I did recently buy a supposedly "as new" 05' on Audiogon for $375 which is on the way. I have had two 05's in the past so I know what they can do in my set up and I at this point for that kind of money, I am willing to trade off speed for aesthetics and build quality.
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post #578 of 6328
5/30/09 at 7:02am
Thread Starter 
[quote=AndyGood;16553547]I have tried what I believe to be every possible setting combination, either it is not capable of doing HDMI in anything but stereo mode when connected component for video or the instructions are so cryptic that the machine is worth returning on that basis alone.QUOTE]

Did you try turning audio downcoversion off? Cycling through the audio tracks?
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post #579 of 6328
5/30/09 at 8:22am
Thread Starter 
Keeping a record of firmware versions in post 3
http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post16344234
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post #580 of 6328
5/30/09 at 8:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by sheedoe View Post

Thanks. Just performed the update via the player's ethernet connection. Went pretty smooth, but update takes a while to install.

Seems like everything about Pioneer is Slow! :

CD
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post #581 of 6328
5/30/09 at 8:31am
I'm considering picking up a 320, but in viewing the manual I couldn't quite figure out how to set up the audio through 5.1 analog to get the high-rez audio. I'd be connecting this to an Anthem AVM 30 via analog.

Sorry if i missed this someplace else on the thread, but I would appreciate a little direction with this.
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post #582 of 6328
5/30/09 at 8:31am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cattledog View Post

Seems like everything about Pioneer is Slow! :

CD

did you get your 23? thoughts?
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post #583 of 6328
5/30/09 at 8:34am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson57 View Post

I'm considering picking up a 320, but in viewing the manual I couldn't quite figure out how to set up the audio through 5.1 analog to get the high-rez audio. I'd be connecting this to an Anthem AVM 30 via analog.

Sorry if i missed this someplace else on the thread, but I would appreciate a little direction with this.

easier than it looks -run the setup navigator and change audio from hdmi to analog audio. you can then make adjustments in the speaker section.
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post #584 of 6328
5/30/09 at 9:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

easier than it looks -run the setup navigator and change audio from hdmi to analog audio. you can then make adjustments in the speaker section.

Thanks Winston.
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post #585 of 6328
5/30/09 at 6:26pm
Well, I went in to pick up a 320, walked out with a 23FD. I have a great dealer. I was a little skeptical about purchasing another Pioneer BD player after being disappointed in the past, but decided to give them another try.

I'm going to give this one the benefit of the doubt, and see what happens after living with it for little while.
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post #586 of 6328
5/30/09 at 6:36pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson57 View Post

Well, I went in to pick up a 320, walked out with a 23FD. I have a great dealer. I was a little skeptical about purchasing another Pioneer BD player after being disappointed in the past, but decided to give them another try.

I'm going to give this one the benefit of the doubt, and see what happens after living with it for little while.

Out of curiousity, what was his pitch for the upgrade?
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post #587 of 6328
5/30/09 at 7:02pm
[quote=winston9332;16553613]
Quote:
Originally Posted by AndyGood View Post

I have tried what I believe to be every possible setting combination, either it is not capable of doing HDMI in anything but stereo mode when connected component for video or the instructions are so cryptic that the machine is worth returning on that basis alone.QUOTE]

Did you try turning audio downcoversion off? Cycling through the audio tracks?

Thanks for the suggestion, I already boxed it up and am back to the 05.
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post #588 of 6328
5/30/09 at 9:00pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

Out of curiousity, what was his pitch for the upgrade?

There was no real pitch, basically, the 320's were in the store's warhouse, and I would have had to wait a couple of days for delivery, that was no real problem, but there also happened to be a 23FD on hand, and it was offered at a very good price (I've done a lot of business with this store), so I just said what the heck.

Played two movies so far, QOS, and Wanted. Picture quality is outstanding. I still need to do some fine tuning with the audio, as the bass is missing a little something. I'll try some adjustments tomorrow.

Also looking forward to listening to some music to check out the CD quality.
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post #589 of 6328
5/31/09 at 2:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by winston9332 View Post

did you get your 23? thoughts?

It's due on Tuesday!

CD
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post #590 of 6328
5/31/09 at 6:04am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson57 View Post

There was no real pitch, basically, the 320's were in the store's warhouse, and I would have had to wait a couple of days for delivery, that was no real problem, but there also happened to be a 23FD on hand, and it was offered at a very good price (I've done a lot of business with this store), so I just said what the heck.

Played two movies so far, QOS, and Wanted. Picture quality is outstanding. I still need to do some fine tuning with the audio, as the bass is missing a little something. I'll try some adjustments tomorrow.

Also looking forward to listening to some music to check out the CD quality.

How is your audio hooked up? I am interested in the 23 and am awaiting your comments. Also, how are the load times on this player?
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post #591 of 6328
5/31/09 at 6:36am
Quote:
Originally Posted by BaronVH View Post

How is your audio hooked up? I am interested in the 23 and am awaiting your comments. Also, how are the load times on this player?

Load times are decent, a tad slower than my Panasonic BD55, however that was never of major concern to me.

My audio hookup, has the 5.1 analog form the 23FD going into a Zektor MAS 7.1 switch, and the Zektor going into the 5.1 on the Anthem AVM30 processor.
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post #592 of 6328
5/31/09 at 7:24am
Just picked up a BDP-23 yesterday at my local HT store. I asked my guy to check their stock and he was sure they did not have them. I told him they just started shipping this week so you may. Sure enough he looked up his inventory and had 6 in the back. Gave me a sweet deal on it with the purchase of a Pio ELite 101. Will be setting this up today and will report back on my findings.
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post #593 of 6328
5/31/09 at 11:07am
It does not appear that the firmware update has had an effect on the layer change issue in my BDP-320. I watched Wall Street last night and the layer change was one of the most notable I've ever experienced. I'm wondering if older DVDs such as Wall Street are more prone to the problem than newer ones, because my prior experiences had been somewhat less obtrusive.

Alan
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post #594 of 6328
5/31/09 at 11:20am
Projector is getting the 1080P signal. I can press display on the 320 and it shows VC-1, but no video. I get the menu, but once I choose a version, I get audio only.

I have to unplug the 320 to get it to stop playing the disc.
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post #595 of 6328
5/31/09 at 11:31am
"It does not appear that the firmware update has had an effect on the layer change issue in my BDP-320. I watched Wall Street last night and the layer change was one of the most notable I've ever experienced."

That's not good news. I'm looking at one of these Pioneers for next go round with blu-ray players. This makes doing so problematic. The specs read like this can be addressed given its memory buffer.
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post #596 of 6328
5/31/09 at 12:19pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by amarkow View Post

It does not appear that the firmware update has had an effect on the layer change issue in my BDP-320. I watched Wall Street last night and the layer change was one of the most notable I've ever experienced. I'm wondering if older DVDs such as Wall Street are more prone to the problem than newer ones, because my prior experiences had been somewhat less obtrusive.

Alan

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

"It does not appear that the firmware update has had an effect on the layer change issue in my BDP-320. I watched Wall Street last night and the layer change was one of the most notable I've ever experienced."

That's not good news. I'm looking at one of these Pioneers for next go round with blu-ray players. This makes doing so problematic. The specs read like this can be addressed given its memory buffer.

Is there a documented problem with the 320's DVD layer change? The firmware update only appears to address with Blu-ray issues, especially BD-J matters.

Smooth layer changes have been a nagging issue from the beginning of DVD. There are several factors involved - differences among players in executing the laser refocus, the switch point in the content itself (at at cut or contiguous shot and the nature of the material itself can draw attention to the layer change) and in the authoring processing (including the particular software) of properly positioning the "break."

I'd test several other dual-layer DVDs before passing judgement on the Pioneer 320 or any other player. Plenty of twitchy discs out there that no player can make right.

The Blu-ray memory spec has nothing to do with DVD layer change.
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post #597 of 6328
5/31/09 at 12:27pm
"Is there a documented problem with the 320's DVD layer change?"

Seems to be as reported by owners. Pause is longer than what we are used to. Long enough as just posted to impact viewing pleasure.

"Smooth layer changes have been a nagging issue from the beginning of DVD."

Not sure I agree with such a general statement. My lowly Pioneer 410 had little to no observable layer breaks. Same with my Pioneer DV-610. Now that I think about it I don't remember seeing one on the latest handful of sd-dvd's I watched on it.

"The Blu-ray memory spec has nothing to do with DVD layer change."

I believe we are aware of that.
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post #598 of 6328
5/31/09 at 12:53pm
The pause is a big issue with BD Pioneer players. My 05 takes 3 seconds to do a layer change. The audio blanks out to the receiver. My X-A2 takes 1 second and the Pioneer DV-49av does the change so fast you don't even notice it. Totally smooth! The layer change, slow load times and sluggish navigation have plagued Pioneers BD players.

Also I have never owned any dvd player ever to take 3 seconds to do a layer change from my Pioneer DV-500 purchased in march 97 onward.
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post #599 of 6328
5/31/09 at 1:13pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

"It does not appear that the firmware update has had an effect on the layer change issue in my BDP-320. I watched Wall Street last night and the layer change was one of the most notable I've ever experienced."

That's not good news. I'm looking at one of these Pioneers for next go round with blu-ray players. This makes doing so problematic. The specs read like this can be addressed given its memory buffer.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jsmiddleton4 View Post

"Is there a documented problem with the 320's DVD layer change?"

Seems to be as reported by owners. Pause is longer than what we are used to. Long enough as just posted to impact viewing pleasure.

"Smooth layer changes have been a nagging issue from the beginning of DVD."

Not sure I agree with such a general statement. My lowly Pioneer 410 had little to no observable layer breaks. Same with my Pioneer DV-610. Now that I think about it I don't remember seeing one on the latest handful of sd-dvd's I watched on it.

"The Blu-ray memory spec has nothing to do with DVD layer change."

I believe we are aware of that.

From your post, it sounded like you were saying that even though the firmware update wasn't fixing the layer change, that the the player's memory buffer could somehow be used to reduce the problem.

Again, smooth layer breaks have indeed been a problem for DVDs, and certainly for early titles. Professional authoring software tools from Toshiba, Panasonic, Daikin and Sonic did not have this perfected at first, and pilot error, both authoring and mastering, compounded the problem of making smooth switches. Most early Hollywood titles were single-layer discs simply because by keeping the bit rates relatively confined, the entire movie could be put on one layer, so dual layer issue didn't arise. As higher bit rate special edition titles and longer movies were put on DVD, layer change became important, but took awhile to get it down right. Mostly depends on the specific disc. Placement of the break is crucial. I've seen titles that apparently due to layout reasons, are forced to make the layer change right in the middle of a shot. That's a sure formula to be noticed. Doing it at a cut is obviously going to be less intrusive, and if there's a fade to black or flying into a black hole, or the break is placed in the midst of a jerking action sequence, the break can be obscured more easily.

I've never had particular issues on my various Pioneer machines: 500, 363, 440, 520, 656, 7200 and LX1.

I haven't seen the 320 problem first hand, but it there really is a 2-3 second delay for what should be a normal playback layer change, Pioneer shouldn't have even let those players out the door.
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post #600 of 6328
5/31/09 at 1:51pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom V View Post

From your post, it sounded like you were saying that even though the firmware update wasn't fixing the layer change, that the the player's memory buffer could somehow be used to reduce the problem.

Again, smooth layer breaks have indeed been a problem for DVDs, and certainly for early titles. Professional authoring software tools from Toshiba, Panasonic, Daikin and Sonic did not have this perfected at first, and pilot error, both authoring and mastering, compounded the problem of making smooth switches. Most early Hollywood titles were single-layer discs simply because by keeping the bit rates relatively confined, the entire movie could be put on one layer, so dual layer issue didn't arise. As higher bit rate special edition titles and longer movies were put on DVD, layer change became important, but took awhile to get it down right. Mostly depends on the specific disc. Placement of the break is crucial. I've seen titles that apparently due to layout reasons, are forced to make the layer change right in the middle of a shot. That's a sure formula to be noticed. Doing it at a cut is obviously going to be less intrusive, and if there's a fade to black or flying into a black hole, or the break is placed in the midst of a jerking action sequence, the break can be obscured more easily.

I've never had particular issues on my various Pioneer machines: 500, 363, 440, 520, 656, 7200 and LX1.

I haven't seen the 320 problem first hand, but it there really is a 2-3 second delay for what should be a normal playback layer change, Pioneer shouldn't have even let those players out the door.

Let's get the record straight - the Pioneer 05/51 and 320/23 have long layer changes - roughly a little less than 2 seconds in my experience. Some have reported them as non-existent and some as long as 3 seconds. The screen goes back then 1, 2 and back. It is annoying and will make you wonder if something is wrong with the disc the first time.

At the end of the day, it is annoying, but most of us investing in a blu ray player are gravitating more and more to BD media. Moreover, the audio and video quality of this player for sd dvds exceeds the annoyance of the slow layer change in this player. While the 320/23 have greater memory that could be used to buffer the layer change better, i would bet money that it will not come in a future firmware update. The DTS HD MA fiasco of the 51/05 is a good lesson in not buying based upon promises or hope.

If the layer change is a critical issue to you, do not buy this product, the 23FD, the 51FD or the 05FD. You will experience it in all four. To me, it is something I have dealt with twice and I watch a lot of sd dvds. Once again, to me it's more important to have proper deinterlacing and quality upscaling than a smoothly buffered layer change. This player delivers the former, but not the latter.

If I had a fix list for Pioneer engineers, I would address load times before the layer change; it is to me a much more everyday annoyance than the 2 seconds I experience half way through one in ten dvds.
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