While I am the "editor", this FAQ is a collaborative venture of the accumulated experience/postings in this thread. I hope --I certainly intend-- to do them justice below.
If you lose track of where this FAQ is located, please remember it is linked "above the fold" on the first post on this thread, thanks to the friendly intervention of one of the unsung heroes of AVS Forum --a mod.
Looking for settings others used? See Q15 and the bottom of this post for "A Few Early Owners PQ Settings as Reported On This Thread"
There is also a "Some Q/A About DLPs and Big Screens in General" section below the initial Q/As specific to the Mitsubishi 2009 lineup, and above the sample PQ settings section. IF YOU'RE LOOKING FOR 3RD PARTY EXTENDED WARRANTY OPTIONS, CHECK THERE.
Interested in practical 3D TV/Movie advice? See this stand-alone thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1261771
Disclaimer: The below was gleaned from the cumulative experience and opinions of the Mits 2009 owners posting in this thread, and edited together by the poster. We are not Mitsubishi representatives, and none of the information presented here is warrantied in any fashion. You'll get the cumulative "conventional wisdom" of AVS Mits 2009 DLP owners here on many common questions new or prospective owners often have, but you alone are responsible for weighing it and acting --or not-- upon it.
Q1: What are the models in Mits 2009 bulb-based DLP lineup?
A1: The lowest-priced line, the C9 comes in 60" (WD-60C9), 65" (WD-65C9), and 73" (WD-73C9) form.
The middle lineup, the 737, comes as WD-60737, WD-65737, WD-73737, and the big-poppa, new for 2009, the 82" WD-82737.
The high-end lineup, the 837, comes as WD-65837, WD-73837, and WD-82837.
Q2: What is the difference between the three lineups?
A2: If there is a difference between the C9 and 737 lineups other than the model no/serial# sticker on the back of the TV, the markings on the box it comes in, and the price (lower for the C9s), then it has so far eluded the efforts of this forum to determine it. Mits does not market the "SharpEdge" and "DeepField Imager" image post-processing features as being avaialable on the C9, but every C9 owner we've talked to here that looks for them finds them just where they'd be on the 737, and reports they work when switched on/off. At least one poster here reports discussing the matter with Mitsubishi reps on the phone and being told there is no difference --that the C9 was produced by Mits to market a lower pricepoint set to major volume bigbox retailers like Costco. SEE Q29 FOR AN UPDATE ON THIS.
The 837s add a few things: The ability to save Day/Night picture settings. Mits Net Command for controlling other devices. Perfect Tint. More inputs (an extra HDMI and a USB port for showing pictures off a flash drive), different styling, and a dynamic mechanical iris marketed as "Dark Detailer" that is intended to increase contrast, produce blacker blacks in dark scenes, and thus increase viewable detail in dark scenes more so than the C9/737. You'll sometimes see people (or hear a salesman) refer to the 837s as the "Diamond" model, which is actually a marketing hold-over from previous generations of Mits DLPs to designate the highest/fanciest model in Mits DLP lineup --technically, the 837s are not referred to by Mits as "Diamond" models. The speculation is that will be reserved for the laser-based Mits DLPs in the future.
Q3: Tell me more about this Dark Detailer iris thingy then, as it sounds like the major PQ improvement of the 837 lineup --should I really be willing to pay significantly more for an 837 to get that?
A3: From reports on the thread, there is some reason to believe that the mechanical dynamic iris (Dark Detailer) may be subject to a "break-in period" of a few weeks on some 837 units before it reaches optimal performance. Some 837 owners (including one gentleman who used to do ISF calibrations) report initially hating it because of something called "pumping" and then noticing significant improvement over time. "Pumping" is when there is a noticeable and distracting lag in the iris operation that creates unwanted changes in contrast as scene content changes from dark to light and back again. Many 837 owners don't report this problem at all, even in the earliest days of use and having read this thread and looking for it. Others have reported an immediate improvement from a replacement set. If you buy an 837 and notice the issue, it might be worth waiting a few weeks to see if it improves on its own before returning the set or demanding repair.
Home Theater Mag reviewed an 837 (See Q14) and praised the blacks without mentioning distracting "pumping" issues.
There is no way to turn off the dynamic iris if you dislike its operation. It is "always on". There is a setting in the service menu to turn it off, but all agree that doing so does not "stick" and that the iris immediately goes back to being "on" once exiting that menu.
No one can tell you how much monetary value you should place on blacker blacks and greater scene detail in dark scenes. There are a lot of happy C9/737 owners who don't seem to miss it. It is also clear that these Mits big screen DLPs are attractive to many because of the size/value proposition in this price range compared to plasma and LCD, and clearly the C9/737 is even more attractive than the 837s on that score. The 837's still generally have a size/value advantage as well (particularly for the 73" and 82" models), and many owners feel an 837 is a good compromise of having the biggest screen they can afford/fit in their target room and still have the maximum PQ at that size and price range available on the market.
Q4: What's "New for 2009" with the Mits bulb-based DLPs?
A4: Mits claims to have rev'ed to a new generation most of the image post-processing features. Tho some users have pointed out we must take this on faith, as there has not been any detailed examination and evidence to show how the rev'ed features provide superior performance to the previous generation. A lot of PQ purists will tell you that the first thing they do is "turn all that crap off anyway" --many other owners find features like SharpEdge and DeepField Imager to be useful at least at times.
The 82" in the 737 and 837 lineups is new.
Many advanced picture settings that were previously only available in the service menu for adjusting color and other PQ options have now been brought into a user menu.
The ability to save Day/Night settings in the 837 lineup is new.
The depth of the units has been increased marginally, reportedly to address geometry issues common to the 2008 models --but you'll be hearing more about geometry on the 2009's later in this FAQ.
Energy Star 3.0 compliance is new.
"Smooth120Hz" being available across the entire lineup is also new --previously it was only available on the higher-end models in earlier years.
3D compatibility with Nvidia's 3D gaming tech is also new. SEE UPDATE in Q6/A6.
Q4-A: Since you mention that PQ options previously only available in the service menu have been added to a user menu. . . can you tell me what those are?
A4-A: Sure, check this post: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post16529159
Q5: What's this "Smooth120Hz" thing then? Does that mean I'll get a 120Hz set that will do "5:5 pulldown" and reduce juddering in native 24 fps content like Blu-ray discs?
A5: Actually, no, it appears it doesn't mean that. This is a pretty long conversation, actually, so I'll provide you with some links to other posts to read up. The Exec Summary is that Smooth120Hz is actually meant to reduce motion-blurring. Which is always nice, of course, except that DLPs are much less susceptible than LCDs to motion-blurring in the first place. Because of something called "wobbulation", the technology behind these Mits DLPs still can't do 5:5 pulldown de-juddering on native 24 fps content. The set can absolutely be used to watch 1080p24 using the older 3:2 pulldown technique (which it supports natively, or most Blu-ray players also can provide it), but in jiggering action sequences you are quite likely to notice more jiggery than someone watching on a 120Hz LCD. Here's our own Wobbulation expert on the nitty-gritty: (insert link).
In fact, Mits own marketing graphic (below) displaying the advantages of Smooth120Hz shows/talks only about motion-blur improvements:
Q6: So what about the 3D thing then? I'm not terribly happy about you qualifying that with "Nvidia's 3D gaming tech" --what is hiding behind that distinction?
A6: Hey, I wasn't hiding --I knew you'd ask! There is not yet a industry standard for showing movies and TV in 3D. It may be years (if ever --but probably eventually) before there is a standard that everyone signs up for. So the 3D tech in these Mits may --or may not-- eventually be compatible with other manufacturers 3D technology, or a new industry standard. There's no guarantee on that, however. The history of proprietary vertically integrated features in consumer electronics is littered with false starts and exciting new features disappearing into the historical void a few years down the line. Not trying to depress you --maybe it will turn out better this time, and maybe the Mits 2009 lineup will benefit from that. Maybe. For now, it is Nvidia's 3D gaming tech that these sets are compatible with.
UPDATE 12/28/2009: See http://hdguru3d.com/index.php?option...news&Itemid=59 for official confirmation from Mitsu that the 2009 lineup is compatible with the new 3D Blu-ray standard. No word just yet what that will require so far as firmware updates or additional add-ons.
UPDATE 07/20/2010: The Mits "3D Starter Kit" and a limited number of stand-alone 3DA1 adapters are starting to hit end-users hands and being put thru their paces. Please see this stand-alone AVS thread for all the gory details: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1261771
Q6-A: How about 3D PC Gaming without Nvidia's 3D Vision kit?
A6-A: I don't do 3D PC gaming myself, so it's mostly Greek to me, but check out this post from owner bcterp and page up for his previous post as well: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post18789556
Q7: Since you mention gaming, how are these things at gaming? Any lag or ghosting?
A7: The console boys (Wii, Xbox360, PS3) seem pretty universal in their praise of these Mits as gaming displays. The main irk to some of them is if you are going thru an AVR that does switching of HDMI inputs instead of straight from the gaming machine into the TV, then you lose the gaming settings that Mits reserves inputs named as "PC" or "Game". Either that or you have to live with those settings on all your inputs switched thru the AVR. Or, of course, you can just run the gaming console hdmi straight to one of the (3 or 4, depending on model) TV's hdmi instead of going thru your AVR. And of course the PS3 is both gaming machine *and* Blu-ray player, so you have to manage two functions for one input there.
The reports from the PC boys are a little more mixed. Most of them seem to like it a lot, and no reports of lag that I've noticed, but some seem to have problems getting their desktops sized exactly right on the Mits screen because of the Mits 2.5% overscan. Some seem to get it satisfactorily, and others seem to have to compromise. Some of this may be down to the individual gaming video card and settings on the users PCs.
Here's one PC guy's preferred setup:
Over-scan is not an issue for console gamers because console gaming has been designed since it's earliest days to assume its display device will be a television, and the overscan standards in TV go all the way back to the beginning of the TV era. PC gaming assumes what is on the other end is just a computer monitor, and tends to not make allowance for TV standards like overscan.
If one names their TV input "PC" or "Game" a special format (Format switching is hiding on the remote under the "More" button, then 0) called "Reduce" becomes available that would eliminate overscan. However, that solution seems unlikely to satisfy the "1-1 pixel mapping" people, as it must accomplish that by mapping 1920x1080 over a smaller area of the set. Still, it seems that's Mitsubishi's offered solution to elminate overscan for PC gaming. See pg 27 in the Owners Guide (An electronic version is linked at Q11 of this FAQ) for the "Reduce" format option.
And as mentioned previously, DLPs are better than LCD's inherently for ghosting, plus Smooth120Hz on top of that --no game ghosting reported here that I've seen.
Q7-A: Do you know how these things deal with the PS3 "Superwhite" setting and the full 0-255 RGB color spectrum?
A7-A: See dssguy1's posts on page 212 to see if they're helpful for you: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...42582&page=212
Q8: How's the included remote for the TV? Any feedback for programming Harmony remotes to work with these?
A8: If a kind word has been written about the remote provided with this TV by a set owner on this forum, then it has escaped my attention. It generally gets berated as having too small vital controls, no backlight, unintuitive, and major functions (like aspect ratio control, aka "Format" --hit More and then 0 for that one) hidden in sub-menus rather than having dedicated buttons of their own.
Harmony has added the various models to their remote database, but there have been reports on the thread of various issues due to inconsistencies in that process. All of the C9s and 737s should use the same codes, so trying various of Harmony's database entries for those units might get you better results with some versus others. WD-60C9 seems a good choice for many. The 837s have more inputs, so require different codes --trying multiple of the Harmony xx837 entries might be in order if you have trouble with the entry that is supposed to be for your specific model; there appears to be more frustration from 837s owners on this score than the other units.
You might also try this post to see if it helps: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16716257 and this one as well: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post18029280
The extended initial cold startup time of the set measured from 22-26 seconds by reports on the thread (for a cold start where the set has not been on in some minutes) has caused some frustration for Harmony macro users who need to switch HDMI inputs on the TV as part of their startup macro. You will want to program your remote accordingly.
Q8-A: Does Mitsubishi have a document discussing their remote codes somewhere?
A8-A: Yes, they do: Mitsubishi Direct Access Codes 2009.
Q9: How do you get into the service menu on these models?
A9: Menu 2 4 5 7 on the remote. From there, 0 will get you to the geometry menu (sometimes known as "keystone correction" to earlier generations of Mits DLP owners), which is the most common request to be in the service menu.
Q10: Is the service manual for these models available somewhere?
A10: Somebody paid for it and uploaded it to an upload service and linked it from this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1172795 You have to sit and wait for it a bit to download from the service, but as of this writing (October 2009) it really does appear to be the service manual you get.
Q11: How about an electronic version of the Owner's Guide?
A11: Right here: http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/C9-737-837_OG.pdf
Q12: Spec sheets for each model (C9/737/837)?
A12: Here; there is one spec sheet per model (C9/737/837), covering all the sizes/weights/power for each model's lineup: http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/WD60737_specsheet.pdf http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/specsheet-WD-65837.pdf http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/WD65C9_specsheet.pdf
Q13: Detailed dimensions of the various size sets (60"/65"/73"/82") of whichever model?
A13: This is one per size offered for 2009, rather than per model. All models (C9/737/837) have the same dimensions for any specific screen size (all the 60" are the same, all the 65" are the same, etc), with just a slight styling difference on the 837 screen frame that does not impact dimensions: http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/WD82737_dimsheet.pdf http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/WD73737_dimsheet.pdf http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/WD65737_dimsheet.pdf http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/WD60737_dimsheet.pdf
Q14: Have any of the big boy sites had an extended hands-on review of these sets?
A14: Yeah, Cnet went hands-on with a 65737 here: http://reviews.cnet.com/projection-t...?tag=mncol;txt Given the controversy over the mechanical iris (Dark Detailer) it is rather a pity they didn't do an 837 instead to offer a pro reviewers perspective on its performance. The big (and pleasant) surprise for most long-time Mits watchers is they liked the accuracy of the color reproduction (which generally got berated in earlier model years reviews). Maybe that is down to moving more advanced picture tweaking options into the user menu.
Home Theater Magazine reviewed a 73837 here: http://www.hometheatermag.com/rearpr...ojection_hdtv/ They do not mention any perceived problems with the dynamic iris (Dark Detailer) but clearly tested for black levels in various sources and praise the results --so presumably if any "pumping" was present, they didn't find it worth mentioning.
Q15: Any initial PQ tweaking hints?
A15: Well, that can be pretty individualistic to taste. You paid for it, what makes you happy makes you happy and you don't need to justify your taste to anyone. I can tell you that Mits ships these things in "flamethrower mode" of Brilliant Picture Mode and High color temperature to catch eyes in showrooms. However, they also suggest in the owner's guide that to produce the color reproduction of the D65 HDTV 6500k standard that a Picture Mode of Natural and a Color Temperature of Low should be selected in the Picture Menu. Some users report that as a little too washed-out in the reds and yellow in the whites for their taste. Some of us prefer Bright and Low to counteract that, with perhaps some toning down of the Red and Green in the Perfect Color menu. At least one guy with a colorimeter in a different thread reported that Natural/Low actually gave him a 5800k reading and that Bright/Low was somewhat higher than 6500k, but closer in an absolute sense to D65. So start with one of those two and play from there until you're happy. If you browse the thread you'll find various suggestions from users of what settings they find best for their taste. The "Picture+" menu gives you access to the previously mentioned advanced PQ settings that were only available in the service menu in previous Mits DLP generations. Saving Picture+ settings will override the settings on the Picture menu.
The bulb will "break-in" over an initial period of useage. 300 hours seems to be the rule of thumb for that process. This also means your settings and results may change over that period of time as well. Owners interested in having professional (i.e. paid) ISF calibration done to their sets will want to keep that in mind.
The bottom of this post has some of the settings early users posted as working best for them, some in the Picture menu, others the Picture+ --try/use at your own discretion, and remember that with a bulb-based TV there is likely to be a little bit of variation from set to set.
Q16: Talk to me about the bulb/lamp. How much does it cost, how bright is it, how long does it last, do I want a bulb warranty?
A16: Mits is selling the bulbs for this set for $99 these days if you buy it from their website: http://www.mitsuparts.com/index.cfm. Third party places are charging substantially more as of this writing (up to twice that price at some I've seen), so it probably is worthwhile to go directly to Mits for it. The part# is 915B403001. In theory, you can check how many hours of use your lamp has by entering
If you lose track of where this FAQ is located, please remember it is linked "above the fold" on the first post on this thread, thanks to the friendly intervention of one of the unsung heroes of AVS Forum --a mod.
Looking for settings others used? See Q15 and the bottom of this post for "A Few Early Owners PQ Settings as Reported On This Thread"
There is also a "Some Q/A About DLPs and Big Screens in General" section below the initial Q/As specific to the Mitsubishi 2009 lineup, and above the sample PQ settings section. IF YOU'RE LOOKING FOR 3RD PARTY EXTENDED WARRANTY OPTIONS, CHECK THERE.
Interested in practical 3D TV/Movie advice? See this stand-alone thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1261771
Mitsubishi 2009 xxC9, xx737, xx837 DLP Lineup FAQ
Disclaimer: The below was gleaned from the cumulative experience and opinions of the Mits 2009 owners posting in this thread, and edited together by the poster. We are not Mitsubishi representatives, and none of the information presented here is warrantied in any fashion. You'll get the cumulative "conventional wisdom" of AVS Mits 2009 DLP owners here on many common questions new or prospective owners often have, but you alone are responsible for weighing it and acting --or not-- upon it.
Q1: What are the models in Mits 2009 bulb-based DLP lineup?
A1: The lowest-priced line, the C9 comes in 60" (WD-60C9), 65" (WD-65C9), and 73" (WD-73C9) form.
The middle lineup, the 737, comes as WD-60737, WD-65737, WD-73737, and the big-poppa, new for 2009, the 82" WD-82737.
The high-end lineup, the 837, comes as WD-65837, WD-73837, and WD-82837.
Q2: What is the difference between the three lineups?
A2: If there is a difference between the C9 and 737 lineups other than the model no/serial# sticker on the back of the TV, the markings on the box it comes in, and the price (lower for the C9s), then it has so far eluded the efforts of this forum to determine it. Mits does not market the "SharpEdge" and "DeepField Imager" image post-processing features as being avaialable on the C9, but every C9 owner we've talked to here that looks for them finds them just where they'd be on the 737, and reports they work when switched on/off. At least one poster here reports discussing the matter with Mitsubishi reps on the phone and being told there is no difference --that the C9 was produced by Mits to market a lower pricepoint set to major volume bigbox retailers like Costco. SEE Q29 FOR AN UPDATE ON THIS.
The 837s add a few things: The ability to save Day/Night picture settings. Mits Net Command for controlling other devices. Perfect Tint. More inputs (an extra HDMI and a USB port for showing pictures off a flash drive), different styling, and a dynamic mechanical iris marketed as "Dark Detailer" that is intended to increase contrast, produce blacker blacks in dark scenes, and thus increase viewable detail in dark scenes more so than the C9/737. You'll sometimes see people (or hear a salesman) refer to the 837s as the "Diamond" model, which is actually a marketing hold-over from previous generations of Mits DLPs to designate the highest/fanciest model in Mits DLP lineup --technically, the 837s are not referred to by Mits as "Diamond" models. The speculation is that will be reserved for the laser-based Mits DLPs in the future.
Q3: Tell me more about this Dark Detailer iris thingy then, as it sounds like the major PQ improvement of the 837 lineup --should I really be willing to pay significantly more for an 837 to get that?
A3: From reports on the thread, there is some reason to believe that the mechanical dynamic iris (Dark Detailer) may be subject to a "break-in period" of a few weeks on some 837 units before it reaches optimal performance. Some 837 owners (including one gentleman who used to do ISF calibrations) report initially hating it because of something called "pumping" and then noticing significant improvement over time. "Pumping" is when there is a noticeable and distracting lag in the iris operation that creates unwanted changes in contrast as scene content changes from dark to light and back again. Many 837 owners don't report this problem at all, even in the earliest days of use and having read this thread and looking for it. Others have reported an immediate improvement from a replacement set. If you buy an 837 and notice the issue, it might be worth waiting a few weeks to see if it improves on its own before returning the set or demanding repair.
Home Theater Mag reviewed an 837 (See Q14) and praised the blacks without mentioning distracting "pumping" issues.
There is no way to turn off the dynamic iris if you dislike its operation. It is "always on". There is a setting in the service menu to turn it off, but all agree that doing so does not "stick" and that the iris immediately goes back to being "on" once exiting that menu.
No one can tell you how much monetary value you should place on blacker blacks and greater scene detail in dark scenes. There are a lot of happy C9/737 owners who don't seem to miss it. It is also clear that these Mits big screen DLPs are attractive to many because of the size/value proposition in this price range compared to plasma and LCD, and clearly the C9/737 is even more attractive than the 837s on that score. The 837's still generally have a size/value advantage as well (particularly for the 73" and 82" models), and many owners feel an 837 is a good compromise of having the biggest screen they can afford/fit in their target room and still have the maximum PQ at that size and price range available on the market.
Q4: What's "New for 2009" with the Mits bulb-based DLPs?
A4: Mits claims to have rev'ed to a new generation most of the image post-processing features. Tho some users have pointed out we must take this on faith, as there has not been any detailed examination and evidence to show how the rev'ed features provide superior performance to the previous generation. A lot of PQ purists will tell you that the first thing they do is "turn all that crap off anyway" --many other owners find features like SharpEdge and DeepField Imager to be useful at least at times.
The 82" in the 737 and 837 lineups is new.
Many advanced picture settings that were previously only available in the service menu for adjusting color and other PQ options have now been brought into a user menu.
The ability to save Day/Night settings in the 837 lineup is new.
The depth of the units has been increased marginally, reportedly to address geometry issues common to the 2008 models --but you'll be hearing more about geometry on the 2009's later in this FAQ.
Energy Star 3.0 compliance is new.
"Smooth120Hz" being available across the entire lineup is also new --previously it was only available on the higher-end models in earlier years.
3D compatibility with Nvidia's 3D gaming tech is also new. SEE UPDATE in Q6/A6.
Q4-A: Since you mention that PQ options previously only available in the service menu have been added to a user menu. . . can you tell me what those are?
A4-A: Sure, check this post: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post16529159
Q5: What's this "Smooth120Hz" thing then? Does that mean I'll get a 120Hz set that will do "5:5 pulldown" and reduce juddering in native 24 fps content like Blu-ray discs?
A5: Actually, no, it appears it doesn't mean that. This is a pretty long conversation, actually, so I'll provide you with some links to other posts to read up. The Exec Summary is that Smooth120Hz is actually meant to reduce motion-blurring. Which is always nice, of course, except that DLPs are much less susceptible than LCDs to motion-blurring in the first place. Because of something called "wobbulation", the technology behind these Mits DLPs still can't do 5:5 pulldown de-juddering on native 24 fps content. The set can absolutely be used to watch 1080p24 using the older 3:2 pulldown technique (which it supports natively, or most Blu-ray players also can provide it), but in jiggering action sequences you are quite likely to notice more jiggery than someone watching on a 120Hz LCD. Here's our own Wobbulation expert on the nitty-gritty: (insert link).
In fact, Mits own marketing graphic (below) displaying the advantages of Smooth120Hz shows/talks only about motion-blur improvements:
Q6: So what about the 3D thing then? I'm not terribly happy about you qualifying that with "Nvidia's 3D gaming tech" --what is hiding behind that distinction?
A6: Hey, I wasn't hiding --I knew you'd ask! There is not yet a industry standard for showing movies and TV in 3D. It may be years (if ever --but probably eventually) before there is a standard that everyone signs up for. So the 3D tech in these Mits may --or may not-- eventually be compatible with other manufacturers 3D technology, or a new industry standard. There's no guarantee on that, however. The history of proprietary vertically integrated features in consumer electronics is littered with false starts and exciting new features disappearing into the historical void a few years down the line. Not trying to depress you --maybe it will turn out better this time, and maybe the Mits 2009 lineup will benefit from that. Maybe. For now, it is Nvidia's 3D gaming tech that these sets are compatible with.
UPDATE 12/28/2009: See http://hdguru3d.com/index.php?option...news&Itemid=59 for official confirmation from Mitsu that the 2009 lineup is compatible with the new 3D Blu-ray standard. No word just yet what that will require so far as firmware updates or additional add-ons.
UPDATE 07/20/2010: The Mits "3D Starter Kit" and a limited number of stand-alone 3DA1 adapters are starting to hit end-users hands and being put thru their paces. Please see this stand-alone AVS thread for all the gory details: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1261771
Q6-A: How about 3D PC Gaming without Nvidia's 3D Vision kit?
A6-A: I don't do 3D PC gaming myself, so it's mostly Greek to me, but check out this post from owner bcterp and page up for his previous post as well: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...6#post18789556
Q7: Since you mention gaming, how are these things at gaming? Any lag or ghosting?
A7: The console boys (Wii, Xbox360, PS3) seem pretty universal in their praise of these Mits as gaming displays. The main irk to some of them is if you are going thru an AVR that does switching of HDMI inputs instead of straight from the gaming machine into the TV, then you lose the gaming settings that Mits reserves inputs named as "PC" or "Game". Either that or you have to live with those settings on all your inputs switched thru the AVR. Or, of course, you can just run the gaming console hdmi straight to one of the (3 or 4, depending on model) TV's hdmi instead of going thru your AVR. And of course the PS3 is both gaming machine *and* Blu-ray player, so you have to manage two functions for one input there.
The reports from the PC boys are a little more mixed. Most of them seem to like it a lot, and no reports of lag that I've noticed, but some seem to have problems getting their desktops sized exactly right on the Mits screen because of the Mits 2.5% overscan. Some seem to get it satisfactorily, and others seem to have to compromise. Some of this may be down to the individual gaming video card and settings on the users PCs.
Here's one PC guy's preferred setup:
Quote:
Originally Posted by mtallent 
Due to the designed in over-scan of RPTV, I use a second 22 inch LCD monitor to display the desk top from the computer. This lets me set up the 65837 for 1:1 pixel mapping without trying to see the edges of the desk top which will be gone due to the over scanning. I use an ATI HD 2650 PRO and XP Pro so I can run in theater mode so that when I open a media file on the desk top it automatically plays full screen on the 65837 and plays in a small window on the desk top and I can see all the controls and the playing time. The test signals I play show that there are no re-sizing artifacts as I have the ATI card set for 1920X1080P and the 65837 is set for "standard" mode.
Mike T
Due to the designed in over-scan of RPTV, I use a second 22 inch LCD monitor to display the desk top from the computer. This lets me set up the 65837 for 1:1 pixel mapping without trying to see the edges of the desk top which will be gone due to the over scanning. I use an ATI HD 2650 PRO and XP Pro so I can run in theater mode so that when I open a media file on the desk top it automatically plays full screen on the 65837 and plays in a small window on the desk top and I can see all the controls and the playing time. The test signals I play show that there are no re-sizing artifacts as I have the ATI card set for 1920X1080P and the 65837 is set for "standard" mode.
Mike T
Over-scan is not an issue for console gamers because console gaming has been designed since it's earliest days to assume its display device will be a television, and the overscan standards in TV go all the way back to the beginning of the TV era. PC gaming assumes what is on the other end is just a computer monitor, and tends to not make allowance for TV standards like overscan.
If one names their TV input "PC" or "Game" a special format (Format switching is hiding on the remote under the "More" button, then 0) called "Reduce" becomes available that would eliminate overscan. However, that solution seems unlikely to satisfy the "1-1 pixel mapping" people, as it must accomplish that by mapping 1920x1080 over a smaller area of the set. Still, it seems that's Mitsubishi's offered solution to elminate overscan for PC gaming. See pg 27 in the Owners Guide (An electronic version is linked at Q11 of this FAQ) for the "Reduce" format option.
And as mentioned previously, DLPs are better than LCD's inherently for ghosting, plus Smooth120Hz on top of that --no game ghosting reported here that I've seen.
Q7-A: Do you know how these things deal with the PS3 "Superwhite" setting and the full 0-255 RGB color spectrum?
A7-A: See dssguy1's posts on page 212 to see if they're helpful for you: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...42582&page=212
Q8: How's the included remote for the TV? Any feedback for programming Harmony remotes to work with these?
A8: If a kind word has been written about the remote provided with this TV by a set owner on this forum, then it has escaped my attention. It generally gets berated as having too small vital controls, no backlight, unintuitive, and major functions (like aspect ratio control, aka "Format" --hit More and then 0 for that one) hidden in sub-menus rather than having dedicated buttons of their own.
Harmony has added the various models to their remote database, but there have been reports on the thread of various issues due to inconsistencies in that process. All of the C9s and 737s should use the same codes, so trying various of Harmony's database entries for those units might get you better results with some versus others. WD-60C9 seems a good choice for many. The 837s have more inputs, so require different codes --trying multiple of the Harmony xx837 entries might be in order if you have trouble with the entry that is supposed to be for your specific model; there appears to be more frustration from 837s owners on this score than the other units.
You might also try this post to see if it helps: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post16716257 and this one as well: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...0#post18029280
The extended initial cold startup time of the set measured from 22-26 seconds by reports on the thread (for a cold start where the set has not been on in some minutes) has caused some frustration for Harmony macro users who need to switch HDMI inputs on the TV as part of their startup macro. You will want to program your remote accordingly.
Q8-A: Does Mitsubishi have a document discussing their remote codes somewhere?
A8-A: Yes, they do: Mitsubishi Direct Access Codes 2009.
Q9: How do you get into the service menu on these models?
A9: Menu 2 4 5 7 on the remote. From there, 0 will get you to the geometry menu (sometimes known as "keystone correction" to earlier generations of Mits DLP owners), which is the most common request to be in the service menu.
Q10: Is the service manual for these models available somewhere?
A10: Somebody paid for it and uploaded it to an upload service and linked it from this thread: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showthread.php?t=1172795 You have to sit and wait for it a bit to download from the service, but as of this writing (October 2009) it really does appear to be the service manual you get.
Q11: How about an electronic version of the Owner's Guide?
A11: Right here: http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/C9-737-837_OG.pdf
Q12: Spec sheets for each model (C9/737/837)?
A12: Here; there is one spec sheet per model (C9/737/837), covering all the sizes/weights/power for each model's lineup: http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/WD60737_specsheet.pdf http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/specsheet-WD-65837.pdf http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/WD65C9_specsheet.pdf
Q13: Detailed dimensions of the various size sets (60"/65"/73"/82") of whichever model?
A13: This is one per size offered for 2009, rather than per model. All models (C9/737/837) have the same dimensions for any specific screen size (all the 60" are the same, all the 65" are the same, etc), with just a slight styling difference on the 837 screen frame that does not impact dimensions: http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/WD82737_dimsheet.pdf http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/WD73737_dimsheet.pdf http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/WD65737_dimsheet.pdf http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/pdf/WD60737_dimsheet.pdf
Q14: Have any of the big boy sites had an extended hands-on review of these sets?
A14: Yeah, Cnet went hands-on with a 65737 here: http://reviews.cnet.com/projection-t...?tag=mncol;txt Given the controversy over the mechanical iris (Dark Detailer) it is rather a pity they didn't do an 837 instead to offer a pro reviewers perspective on its performance. The big (and pleasant) surprise for most long-time Mits watchers is they liked the accuracy of the color reproduction (which generally got berated in earlier model years reviews). Maybe that is down to moving more advanced picture tweaking options into the user menu.
Home Theater Magazine reviewed a 73837 here: http://www.hometheatermag.com/rearpr...ojection_hdtv/ They do not mention any perceived problems with the dynamic iris (Dark Detailer) but clearly tested for black levels in various sources and praise the results --so presumably if any "pumping" was present, they didn't find it worth mentioning.
Q15: Any initial PQ tweaking hints?
A15: Well, that can be pretty individualistic to taste. You paid for it, what makes you happy makes you happy and you don't need to justify your taste to anyone. I can tell you that Mits ships these things in "flamethrower mode" of Brilliant Picture Mode and High color temperature to catch eyes in showrooms. However, they also suggest in the owner's guide that to produce the color reproduction of the D65 HDTV 6500k standard that a Picture Mode of Natural and a Color Temperature of Low should be selected in the Picture Menu. Some users report that as a little too washed-out in the reds and yellow in the whites for their taste. Some of us prefer Bright and Low to counteract that, with perhaps some toning down of the Red and Green in the Perfect Color menu. At least one guy with a colorimeter in a different thread reported that Natural/Low actually gave him a 5800k reading and that Bright/Low was somewhat higher than 6500k, but closer in an absolute sense to D65. So start with one of those two and play from there until you're happy. If you browse the thread you'll find various suggestions from users of what settings they find best for their taste. The "Picture+" menu gives you access to the previously mentioned advanced PQ settings that were only available in the service menu in previous Mits DLP generations. Saving Picture+ settings will override the settings on the Picture menu.
The bulb will "break-in" over an initial period of useage. 300 hours seems to be the rule of thumb for that process. This also means your settings and results may change over that period of time as well. Owners interested in having professional (i.e. paid) ISF calibration done to their sets will want to keep that in mind.
The bottom of this post has some of the settings early users posted as working best for them, some in the Picture menu, others the Picture+ --try/use at your own discretion, and remember that with a bulb-based TV there is likely to be a little bit of variation from set to set.
Q16: Talk to me about the bulb/lamp. How much does it cost, how bright is it, how long does it last, do I want a bulb warranty?
A16: Mits is selling the bulbs for this set for $99 these days if you buy it from their website: http://www.mitsuparts.com/index.cfm. Third party places are charging substantially more as of this writing (up to twice that price at some I've seen), so it probably is worthwhile to go directly to Mits for it. The part# is 915B403001. In theory, you can check how many hours of use your lamp has by entering
2 4 7 0. Unfortunately, this does not seem to work (reports impossibly low number) for 737 and C9 owners with the V41 011.00 firmware (as reported on that same screen as "DM Software").
The entire lineup is 180W bulbs (first gen Mits DLP was 120W, moving up later to 150W, then the current 180W). As some people note, inexorable physics requires that an 82" set will not be as bright as a 60" set with the same bulb. Some people have criticised the 82" models on that score. If you're thinking of an 82", you might want to go to a bricks and mortar store and look for yourself, and ask yourself just how bright the room you want to put that set in is during the daytime.
The bulb manufacturer seems to talk about 4-6k hours per bulb, but individual bulbs will vary. Some previous generation Mits owners apparently had issues with poorly ventilated sets that seriously decreased bulb-life due to overheating. As of this writing, these sets have only been in the wild for about 5 months, so reports of bulb failure haven't really started coming in yet. Mits does warranty the bulb for one year under the initial manufacturer warranty. These sets do need some open space around them to ventilate effectively, however --consider that if you have a tightly enclosed entertainment center you're placing them in.
There is also a "Bright" mode for the bulb under the Initial Menu-->Lamp. This is not Energy Star 3.0 compliant, and Mits warns in the owner's guide that you may get increased fan noise from using that setting. This implies it must be running the bulb hotter, and therefore may shorten your lamp life if you use it constantly. You'll have to see for yourself if you find that setting enough of a difference maker to your enjoyment of the set to make that risk worthwile. Owners of the larger sets (73" and 82") might find that setting more worthwhile than owners of the smaller sets because of the larger sets inherently marginally less brightness per sq in.
Some people *really* like cost certainty with these things and prefer to get an extended warranty that will cover their bulbs. If you're "that guy", that's available to you. You'll pay more for an extended with bulb warranty than without, but they are out there to be found. However, consider a few other factors before you make up your mind. Warranties that cover bulbs require the bulb to actually die before replacing it under warranty. This means two things: If you have an aging bulb that is beginning to impact the brightness of the set you can't get it replaced under warranty. You have to wait for it to die. Also, by waiting for it to die, you are also going to have to wait anywhere from a couple days to several days (if it happens to be over a weekend) to report your dead bulb and receive a new one in the mail. Some of us old-timey Mits DLP veterans prefer to use the bulb in the set for around a year under the original manufacturer warranty --then buy a new bulb on our own nickel, put the new bulb in to make sure it works (replacement bulb warranties are usually shortish so you don't want to just stick it in the closet without making sure it is good), and then put the old bulb in the closet for when the new bulb fails or degrades down the line. This gives you a known-good "emergency spare" on hand to eliminate significant downtime and/or allow you to replace an aging/dimming bulb at your own discretion. Which model, "cost certainty" vs "I want what I want RIGHT NOW", you prefer is up to you.
Just as a point of comparison, one of the most common 3d party warranty companies used by AVS Forum members charges about $90 extra for bulb coverage (max two bulbs) on their 3 year extended (ownership years 2-4 for the TV; but ownership years 1-3 for bulbs) warranty. Obviously they aren't in the business of losing money, and they probably have as good or better a statistical analysis over time on the subject re the law-of-large-numbers as Mitsubishi themselves. They clearly aren't expecting to have to replace a dead (again, "dead" --not wounded) bulb on macro average more than once per customer through the 3rd year of ownership at that price, and that includes those bulbs that survived Mits first year manufacturer warranty.
UPDATE 08/26/2010: Member gtgray has some observations on another potential impact of running the lamp on "bright" on your larger 73"/82" set --the possibility that Mits thermal management may vary lamp brightness and mess up your color scale to some degree. See here for his findings on his 82837: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post19104981
Q17: Yeah, hot bulbs equals fans equals noise --talk to me about operational noise on these things?
A17: As an owner of a 60737 who also owns a still in-service 2004 Mits first generation DLP in the same house, I am here to tell you that these new 2009s are massively better on this score than the early Mits DLPs. All owners agree that the color wheel spinning up does produce a noticeable high-pitched whine in the first few seconds (3-5?) after power-on. Unless you're sitting right next to the thing straining to hear something, that should pretty much be the last you hear from it if you aren't one of those "hearing a bat would envy" people. If from your regular sitting position with the volume muted you are hearing noticeably annoying operational noise from the TV over all the other environmental noise in the room (your cable box, your AVR, whatever), you probably need a service call to fix it. There have been sporadic reports of that kind, fixed either by service call maintenance or the service tech or retailer deciding to replace the TV --usually the light engine, the color wheel, or the bulb/assembly seems to be the culprit in those cases.
Tho please note that Mits warns that if you use the "Bright" setting under Initial-->Lamp that you may get more fan noise than not using it (presumably the bulb is running hotter). We haven't had much feedback on that point on the forum yet, as most users do not use that setting as the default OOB setting is Energy Star 3.0 compliant "Standard".
Q18: Me no likey cable/sat boxes. How's the built-in tuner for OTA antennas and straight-in (no box) cable runs?
A18: The analog tuner seems pretty peppy. The HD tuner seems slower to change channels --slower than my older 2004 Sony LCD in fact. Mits has something called "Channel View" as a program guide that can pull program information off OTA sources and *some* cable companies (they don't warranty/mention which cable cos they support for that). The owner's guide mentions that you'll need to set the current time on the TV before trying to populate the Channel View program guide. When doing channel scans from no-box cable runs, multiple owners have reported that the tuner may place channels in different places numerically than other TVs they've owned, but if they go hunting they do find them.
Q19: What's this "geometry" stuff everyone seems quite interested in? And "1-1 pixel mapping"?! What's that about?
A19: Geometry is how well the framing of your picture appears on the screen. Is it uniform and straight all along its boundaries (both horizontally and vertically) for both HD and SD content? Does it fill the screen correctly without going off the edges too much or showing black inside the edges and outside the picture? Like that. Because of the nature of Rear Projection TV and the millions of little mirrors creating the image in a DLP, there is always some variation from set to set in geometry. Sometimes this is very, very minor and unobjectionable to most viewers --and sometimes it is not. Sometimes it is even bad enough to make a service call to fix it or replace the set.
Mitsubishi seems to ship every set with at least some degree of "auto-correction" of the geometry turned on. In other words, a software algorithm is slightly (hopefully!) modifying the geometry of the picture to make it fit the screen better.
Any degree of auto-correction will ruin (to lesser or greater degree) "1-1 pixel mapping" --which is the TV mapping exactly one pixel of a 1080p source image to one (and only one) screen pixel. The gamers and the purists seem most intense about that. Any degree of correction will somewhat (again, to greater or lesser degree depending on how much correction is applied) reduce the maximum resolution of the light-engine to something fractionally below 1080p (1920x1080 --2,073,600 pixels) as the software on the set maps the image over fewer available screen pixels than the native 1080p content is offering. The result is the picture will be slightly softer/less sharp than it otherwise would be.
Q20: Well, since Mits ships it with auto-correction of the geometry already turned on, at least I won't have to worry about any wavy border lines on my HD or SD content in my freshly-delivered set, right?
A20: Alas, if it were only so! Slightly to moderately to "ouch!" geometry issues OOB are the single most common complaint about these sets by new owners even with Mits "auto-correction" turned on.
Q21: Oh, well, how can I tell if my geometry is good, bad, or somewhere in between?
A21: Start with real content, both 16:9 HD and 4:3 SD. The geometry is actually different for each and one could be okay and the other screwy. Check the borders of the image by eye and see if you see bowing, bending, or off-center looking stuff anywhere. That might tell you right away. Certainly if you can see a geometry issue easily from looking at real content you probably have enough of a problem to make it worthwhile correcting in some fashion.
Q22: Okay, maybe I've got an easily seen geometry problem, or maybe I just need to see a more stringent test anyway and maybe make corrections and/or turn off auto-correction of the geometry because. . . well, I'm "that guy".
A22: Yeah, you've got lots of brothers, so don't sweat being "that guy". The instructions below from the service guide explain the process both for manually correcting geometry and turning off auto-correction. A lot of us who've tried turning off auto-correction don't even see a difference once it is done --but the purists with their detailed test patterns designed to show the difference swear it is there.
From the service manual page 33.
You can also start here at post 235 for more detailed instructions on how to use that screen, and if you skim a few pages in either direction from there you'll get some of our original discussion as we thrashed the subject around: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1142582&page=8
Or this post from a 2008 Mits owner explains the procedure pretty clearly: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post11546564
Q23: Are there points where maybe the geometry isn't "perfect" but also isn't bad enough to make it worthwhile to correct it, and points where maybe it is bad enough to demand service/replacement instead of using the manual geometry menu to try to correct it?
A23: Absolutely --and both of those points are going to largely be up to you and your sensibilities to determine. "Perfect" uncorrected geometry is somewhere between rare and mythical for these sets. A lot of guys will tell you they'd rather have 1-1 pixel mapping for the best sharpness they can get rather than apply small amounts of manual correction to try to achieve the straightest lines they can. Remember, the more correction you apply, the further you're reducing the "real" resolution of the set from the 1080p standard. Other guys are willing to apply a little tweak here and there if by doing so they can make an edge a little straighter and thus not notice any bowing watching real content. But how large a required correction is so large that you shouldn't even attempt it, but rather demand the set be fixed or replaced (and remember, one guy here fixed his blatantly obvious geometry issue by moving a loose mirror back into place)? That's up to you, but that point certainly exists, and --sensible fellow that I'm sure you are-- if you feel that your set is at or past that point, then it probably is. You can always post up a pic here and ask for some feedback if you really feel unsure.
User Myron243 has posted some pics of his native geometry here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post18527715 The thread agreement seems to be it isn't perfect, but is darned good OOB. Let this inform you or not, as you see fit.
Q24: Anything else you care to tell me about initial geometry issues?
A24: Yeah, the lightness of construction of these sets seems to be a contributing factor. My 2004 Mits 62" weighs about 100lbs more than my 2009 Mits 60". It didn't all come out of improving the electronics. These newer sets are clearly made of much lighter materials. It seems pretty clear from the cumulative experience of this forum that the lighter construction is a significant contributor to the bad initial geometry (and actual damage to the screens/frames in some cases) some owners experience. As the sets make their way bumped along in planes, trucks, warehouse forklifts, etc from the assembly plant to your home this can be the result. One guy on this forum actually fixed his geometry himself by opening up the screen and re-fixing a mirror that had come loose from where it was supposed to be. Anyone can make their geometry temporarily bad by using their index finger to push lightly at the upper left corner of the screen frame in any direction --then when you quit it will spring back to where it was. These are lightly built sets, and while some of those consequences are really nice (moving them around is much easier than the old ones, and stands can be lighter/cheaper too), it also means they are more susceptible to shipping damage and bad geometry.
The 82" sets are listed as significantly heavier proportionally than the smaller models --they *may* be a little less susceptible to these issues.
Q25: Hmm, sounds like I should be vigilant about checking for shipping damage on these things then? And know/understand/be comfortable with the return/replace/repair policies of the place I bought it from?
A25: That would be the prudent thing to do. Visible shipping damage seems most often to occur to the screen and the frame around the screen. Invisible (before actually turning the set on, anyway) shipping damage is most often to the geometry. If I knew then (May 2009) what I know now (October 2009). . . then when I bought mine just after they became available, I never would have driven it home myself in the back of my own truck. It came out just fine, but the hassle I might have had with the retailer if I had discovered shipping damage after I got it home and got it out of the box, and if the retailer had tried to blame me for it makes me sweat a little to think about it. In fact, the retailer guys wouldn't even help me tie it down in the back of the truck because they said they weren't allowed to do so by store policy --one guess what the thinking there must have been to make such a policy.
Q26: Any other commonly reported problems to look out for?
A26: The two middle sized units, 65" and 73", seem somewhat susceptible to the screen sagging or bowing in the middle. This doesn't seem to happen to the 60" (smaller so less weight) or 82" (reportedly a different screen design) units. If you've got the problem (the picture will be distorted and fuzzy in the area where the screen is bowed), you'll need a replacement.
Light leakage into the black bars above letterboxed movies has been reported on some units, to one degree or another, but not all or even most. Some people also seem more susceptible to be bothered by the issue. A few pics have shown specific units having the problem pretty badly --if you have the issue, again a replacement will be required to fix it. UPDATE 3/15: I've been coming around to the theory that this issue is actually inherently there on all the Mits sets (and thus replacement is unlikely to help much), but the degree to which the owner will notice it varies widely by both sensitivity to the issue, and how much light is in the room. Viewing the set in low light conditions (like a dedicated home theater room) is much more likely to make the issue noticeable. I don't know that all owners agree with that analysis, but I think most do.
Q27: I'm having problems getting this thing setup with all my inputs; or a light is blinking that shouldn't be blinking, or it won't turn on; or one or more of my HDMI inputs is suddenly fubared; or the digital tuner won't scan right; or (etc etc etc) and I've done everything I can think of and everything in the owner's guide in the troubleshooting section, including RESET and NOTHING IS WORKING. Is it time to push the panic button and call support now?
A27: "When in danger or in doubt; run in circles --scream and shout. Bang your head against the wall; make life hell for one and all."
Then, after that emotional catharsis (and brother, I've been there), and BEFORE you call support --try unplugging the thing from the wall for a few minutes. "Off" isn't off these days for most complex consumer electronics, and even a "reset" isn't as all encompassing a "start over" as just denying the thing the electric juice of life for a spell. If that doesn't work (well, y'know, after you plug it back in and try again, of course!), then call support. It's certainly cured the occassional head-scratcher for some of us at times. Truly weird HDMI issues seem to be particularly amenable to being "healed" by the process, tho digital tuner channel scanning issues have been reported to be fixed as well. No promises, of course --but it is worth a try.
Q28: Wow, monster big screens like this --they must support Picture-in-Picture (PiP), right?
A28: Not so much. Some earlier year Mits DLPs did, but these models don't. Mits apparently decided that size/value was their competitive advantage and that the added cost of PiP wasn't worth it.
Q29: What's the current firmware for these sets, and how do I request an update from Mits?
A29: UPDATE 1/20/2011: Mitsubishi has now put their firmware upgrades online. You still need a USB flash drive of your own to do this, but the current firmware can be downloaded here: http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/support.html As of this writing, 11.03 is the current firmware. No word on what it does vs 11.02.
As of March 2010, there appear to be individual firmwares for C9, 737, and 837 sets, with at least the C9 and 837 sets having three different sets of firmware in the wild. The phone# to call is 800-332-2119.
To check your firmware, hit
The entire lineup is 180W bulbs (first gen Mits DLP was 120W, moving up later to 150W, then the current 180W). As some people note, inexorable physics requires that an 82" set will not be as bright as a 60" set with the same bulb. Some people have criticised the 82" models on that score. If you're thinking of an 82", you might want to go to a bricks and mortar store and look for yourself, and ask yourself just how bright the room you want to put that set in is during the daytime.
The bulb manufacturer seems to talk about 4-6k hours per bulb, but individual bulbs will vary. Some previous generation Mits owners apparently had issues with poorly ventilated sets that seriously decreased bulb-life due to overheating. As of this writing, these sets have only been in the wild for about 5 months, so reports of bulb failure haven't really started coming in yet. Mits does warranty the bulb for one year under the initial manufacturer warranty. These sets do need some open space around them to ventilate effectively, however --consider that if you have a tightly enclosed entertainment center you're placing them in.
There is also a "Bright" mode for the bulb under the Initial Menu-->Lamp. This is not Energy Star 3.0 compliant, and Mits warns in the owner's guide that you may get increased fan noise from using that setting. This implies it must be running the bulb hotter, and therefore may shorten your lamp life if you use it constantly. You'll have to see for yourself if you find that setting enough of a difference maker to your enjoyment of the set to make that risk worthwile. Owners of the larger sets (73" and 82") might find that setting more worthwhile than owners of the smaller sets because of the larger sets inherently marginally less brightness per sq in.
Some people *really* like cost certainty with these things and prefer to get an extended warranty that will cover their bulbs. If you're "that guy", that's available to you. You'll pay more for an extended with bulb warranty than without, but they are out there to be found. However, consider a few other factors before you make up your mind. Warranties that cover bulbs require the bulb to actually die before replacing it under warranty. This means two things: If you have an aging bulb that is beginning to impact the brightness of the set you can't get it replaced under warranty. You have to wait for it to die. Also, by waiting for it to die, you are also going to have to wait anywhere from a couple days to several days (if it happens to be over a weekend) to report your dead bulb and receive a new one in the mail. Some of us old-timey Mits DLP veterans prefer to use the bulb in the set for around a year under the original manufacturer warranty --then buy a new bulb on our own nickel, put the new bulb in to make sure it works (replacement bulb warranties are usually shortish so you don't want to just stick it in the closet without making sure it is good), and then put the old bulb in the closet for when the new bulb fails or degrades down the line. This gives you a known-good "emergency spare" on hand to eliminate significant downtime and/or allow you to replace an aging/dimming bulb at your own discretion. Which model, "cost certainty" vs "I want what I want RIGHT NOW", you prefer is up to you.
Just as a point of comparison, one of the most common 3d party warranty companies used by AVS Forum members charges about $90 extra for bulb coverage (max two bulbs) on their 3 year extended (ownership years 2-4 for the TV; but ownership years 1-3 for bulbs) warranty. Obviously they aren't in the business of losing money, and they probably have as good or better a statistical analysis over time on the subject re the law-of-large-numbers as Mitsubishi themselves. They clearly aren't expecting to have to replace a dead (again, "dead" --not wounded) bulb on macro average more than once per customer through the 3rd year of ownership at that price, and that includes those bulbs that survived Mits first year manufacturer warranty.
UPDATE 08/26/2010: Member gtgray has some observations on another potential impact of running the lamp on "bright" on your larger 73"/82" set --the possibility that Mits thermal management may vary lamp brightness and mess up your color scale to some degree. See here for his findings on his 82837: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1#post19104981
Q17: Yeah, hot bulbs equals fans equals noise --talk to me about operational noise on these things?
A17: As an owner of a 60737 who also owns a still in-service 2004 Mits first generation DLP in the same house, I am here to tell you that these new 2009s are massively better on this score than the early Mits DLPs. All owners agree that the color wheel spinning up does produce a noticeable high-pitched whine in the first few seconds (3-5?) after power-on. Unless you're sitting right next to the thing straining to hear something, that should pretty much be the last you hear from it if you aren't one of those "hearing a bat would envy" people. If from your regular sitting position with the volume muted you are hearing noticeably annoying operational noise from the TV over all the other environmental noise in the room (your cable box, your AVR, whatever), you probably need a service call to fix it. There have been sporadic reports of that kind, fixed either by service call maintenance or the service tech or retailer deciding to replace the TV --usually the light engine, the color wheel, or the bulb/assembly seems to be the culprit in those cases.
Tho please note that Mits warns that if you use the "Bright" setting under Initial-->Lamp that you may get more fan noise than not using it (presumably the bulb is running hotter). We haven't had much feedback on that point on the forum yet, as most users do not use that setting as the default OOB setting is Energy Star 3.0 compliant "Standard".
Q18: Me no likey cable/sat boxes. How's the built-in tuner for OTA antennas and straight-in (no box) cable runs?
A18: The analog tuner seems pretty peppy. The HD tuner seems slower to change channels --slower than my older 2004 Sony LCD in fact. Mits has something called "Channel View" as a program guide that can pull program information off OTA sources and *some* cable companies (they don't warranty/mention which cable cos they support for that). The owner's guide mentions that you'll need to set the current time on the TV before trying to populate the Channel View program guide. When doing channel scans from no-box cable runs, multiple owners have reported that the tuner may place channels in different places numerically than other TVs they've owned, but if they go hunting they do find them.
Q19: What's this "geometry" stuff everyone seems quite interested in? And "1-1 pixel mapping"?! What's that about?
A19: Geometry is how well the framing of your picture appears on the screen. Is it uniform and straight all along its boundaries (both horizontally and vertically) for both HD and SD content? Does it fill the screen correctly without going off the edges too much or showing black inside the edges and outside the picture? Like that. Because of the nature of Rear Projection TV and the millions of little mirrors creating the image in a DLP, there is always some variation from set to set in geometry. Sometimes this is very, very minor and unobjectionable to most viewers --and sometimes it is not. Sometimes it is even bad enough to make a service call to fix it or replace the set.
Mitsubishi seems to ship every set with at least some degree of "auto-correction" of the geometry turned on. In other words, a software algorithm is slightly (hopefully!) modifying the geometry of the picture to make it fit the screen better.
Any degree of auto-correction will ruin (to lesser or greater degree) "1-1 pixel mapping" --which is the TV mapping exactly one pixel of a 1080p source image to one (and only one) screen pixel. The gamers and the purists seem most intense about that. Any degree of correction will somewhat (again, to greater or lesser degree depending on how much correction is applied) reduce the maximum resolution of the light-engine to something fractionally below 1080p (1920x1080 --2,073,600 pixels) as the software on the set maps the image over fewer available screen pixels than the native 1080p content is offering. The result is the picture will be slightly softer/less sharp than it otherwise would be.
Q20: Well, since Mits ships it with auto-correction of the geometry already turned on, at least I won't have to worry about any wavy border lines on my HD or SD content in my freshly-delivered set, right?
A20: Alas, if it were only so! Slightly to moderately to "ouch!" geometry issues OOB are the single most common complaint about these sets by new owners even with Mits "auto-correction" turned on.
Q21: Oh, well, how can I tell if my geometry is good, bad, or somewhere in between?
A21: Start with real content, both 16:9 HD and 4:3 SD. The geometry is actually different for each and one could be okay and the other screwy. Check the borders of the image by eye and see if you see bowing, bending, or off-center looking stuff anywhere. That might tell you right away. Certainly if you can see a geometry issue easily from looking at real content you probably have enough of a problem to make it worthwhile correcting in some fashion.
Q22: Okay, maybe I've got an easily seen geometry problem, or maybe I just need to see a more stringent test anyway and maybe make corrections and/or turn off auto-correction of the geometry because. . . well, I'm "that guy".
A22: Yeah, you've got lots of brothers, so don't sweat being "that guy". The instructions below from the service guide explain the process both for manually correcting geometry and turning off auto-correction. A lot of us who've tried turning off auto-correction don't even see a difference once it is done --but the purists with their detailed test patterns designed to show the difference swear it is there.
From the service manual page 33.
Quote:
Manual Geometry Alignment
1. Activate the Service Mode
Manual Geometry Alignment
1. Activate the Service Mode
<2-4-5-7>. From the Service Menu, press the <0> button. The Data
Transfer & Geometry Menu will appear.
2. Use the <> buttons to select “MANUAL GEOMETRY ALIGNMENT” and press .
The Manual Keystone Geometry Alignment Pattern will appear. See below.
Note: To remove all geometry correction, while the Geometry Alignment Pattern is displayed, press <1> then
. This will null all correction data. Then re-enter the Manual Geometry Alignment mode by repeating
step 2.
Note: To restore the original factory correction data, select “RESTORE GEOMETRY DATA FROM BACKUP” and
press .
Transfer & Geometry Menu will appear.
2. Use the <> buttons to select “MANUAL GEOMETRY ALIGNMENT” and press .
The Manual Keystone Geometry Alignment Pattern will appear. See below.
Note: To remove all geometry correction, while the Geometry Alignment Pattern is displayed, press <1> then
. This will null all correction data. Then re-enter the Manual Geometry Alignment mode by repeating
step 2.
Note: To restore the original factory correction data, select “RESTORE GEOMETRY DATA FROM BACKUP” and
press .
You can also start here at post 235 for more detailed instructions on how to use that screen, and if you skim a few pages in either direction from there you'll get some of our original discussion as we thrashed the subject around: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...1142582&page=8
Or this post from a 2008 Mits owner explains the procedure pretty clearly: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post11546564
Q23: Are there points where maybe the geometry isn't "perfect" but also isn't bad enough to make it worthwhile to correct it, and points where maybe it is bad enough to demand service/replacement instead of using the manual geometry menu to try to correct it?
A23: Absolutely --and both of those points are going to largely be up to you and your sensibilities to determine. "Perfect" uncorrected geometry is somewhere between rare and mythical for these sets. A lot of guys will tell you they'd rather have 1-1 pixel mapping for the best sharpness they can get rather than apply small amounts of manual correction to try to achieve the straightest lines they can. Remember, the more correction you apply, the further you're reducing the "real" resolution of the set from the 1080p standard. Other guys are willing to apply a little tweak here and there if by doing so they can make an edge a little straighter and thus not notice any bowing watching real content. But how large a required correction is so large that you shouldn't even attempt it, but rather demand the set be fixed or replaced (and remember, one guy here fixed his blatantly obvious geometry issue by moving a loose mirror back into place)? That's up to you, but that point certainly exists, and --sensible fellow that I'm sure you are-- if you feel that your set is at or past that point, then it probably is. You can always post up a pic here and ask for some feedback if you really feel unsure.
User Myron243 has posted some pics of his native geometry here: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post18527715 The thread agreement seems to be it isn't perfect, but is darned good OOB. Let this inform you or not, as you see fit.
Q24: Anything else you care to tell me about initial geometry issues?
A24: Yeah, the lightness of construction of these sets seems to be a contributing factor. My 2004 Mits 62" weighs about 100lbs more than my 2009 Mits 60". It didn't all come out of improving the electronics. These newer sets are clearly made of much lighter materials. It seems pretty clear from the cumulative experience of this forum that the lighter construction is a significant contributor to the bad initial geometry (and actual damage to the screens/frames in some cases) some owners experience. As the sets make their way bumped along in planes, trucks, warehouse forklifts, etc from the assembly plant to your home this can be the result. One guy on this forum actually fixed his geometry himself by opening up the screen and re-fixing a mirror that had come loose from where it was supposed to be. Anyone can make their geometry temporarily bad by using their index finger to push lightly at the upper left corner of the screen frame in any direction --then when you quit it will spring back to where it was. These are lightly built sets, and while some of those consequences are really nice (moving them around is much easier than the old ones, and stands can be lighter/cheaper too), it also means they are more susceptible to shipping damage and bad geometry.
The 82" sets are listed as significantly heavier proportionally than the smaller models --they *may* be a little less susceptible to these issues.
Q25: Hmm, sounds like I should be vigilant about checking for shipping damage on these things then? And know/understand/be comfortable with the return/replace/repair policies of the place I bought it from?
A25: That would be the prudent thing to do. Visible shipping damage seems most often to occur to the screen and the frame around the screen. Invisible (before actually turning the set on, anyway) shipping damage is most often to the geometry. If I knew then (May 2009) what I know now (October 2009). . . then when I bought mine just after they became available, I never would have driven it home myself in the back of my own truck. It came out just fine, but the hassle I might have had with the retailer if I had discovered shipping damage after I got it home and got it out of the box, and if the retailer had tried to blame me for it makes me sweat a little to think about it. In fact, the retailer guys wouldn't even help me tie it down in the back of the truck because they said they weren't allowed to do so by store policy --one guess what the thinking there must have been to make such a policy.
Q26: Any other commonly reported problems to look out for?
A26: The two middle sized units, 65" and 73", seem somewhat susceptible to the screen sagging or bowing in the middle. This doesn't seem to happen to the 60" (smaller so less weight) or 82" (reportedly a different screen design) units. If you've got the problem (the picture will be distorted and fuzzy in the area where the screen is bowed), you'll need a replacement.
Light leakage into the black bars above letterboxed movies has been reported on some units, to one degree or another, but not all or even most. Some people also seem more susceptible to be bothered by the issue. A few pics have shown specific units having the problem pretty badly --if you have the issue, again a replacement will be required to fix it. UPDATE 3/15: I've been coming around to the theory that this issue is actually inherently there on all the Mits sets (and thus replacement is unlikely to help much), but the degree to which the owner will notice it varies widely by both sensitivity to the issue, and how much light is in the room. Viewing the set in low light conditions (like a dedicated home theater room) is much more likely to make the issue noticeable. I don't know that all owners agree with that analysis, but I think most do.
Q27: I'm having problems getting this thing setup with all my inputs; or a light is blinking that shouldn't be blinking, or it won't turn on; or one or more of my HDMI inputs is suddenly fubared; or the digital tuner won't scan right; or (etc etc etc) and I've done everything I can think of and everything in the owner's guide in the troubleshooting section, including RESET and NOTHING IS WORKING. Is it time to push the panic button and call support now?
A27: "When in danger or in doubt; run in circles --scream and shout. Bang your head against the wall; make life hell for one and all."
Then, after that emotional catharsis (and brother, I've been there), and BEFORE you call support --try unplugging the thing from the wall for a few minutes. "Off" isn't off these days for most complex consumer electronics, and even a "reset" isn't as all encompassing a "start over" as just denying the thing the electric juice of life for a spell. If that doesn't work (well, y'know, after you plug it back in and try again, of course!), then call support. It's certainly cured the occassional head-scratcher for some of us at times. Truly weird HDMI issues seem to be particularly amenable to being "healed" by the process, tho digital tuner channel scanning issues have been reported to be fixed as well. No promises, of course --but it is worth a try.
Q28: Wow, monster big screens like this --they must support Picture-in-Picture (PiP), right?
A28: Not so much. Some earlier year Mits DLPs did, but these models don't. Mits apparently decided that size/value was their competitive advantage and that the added cost of PiP wasn't worth it.
Q29: What's the current firmware for these sets, and how do I request an update from Mits?
A29: UPDATE 1/20/2011: Mitsubishi has now put their firmware upgrades online. You still need a USB flash drive of your own to do this, but the current firmware can be downloaded here: http://www.mitsubishi-tv.com/support.html As of this writing, 11.03 is the current firmware. No word on what it does vs 11.02.
As of March 2010, there appear to be individual firmwares for C9, 737, and 837 sets, with at least the C9 and 837 sets having three different sets of firmware in the wild. The phone# to call is 800-332-2119.
To check your firmware, hit
2 4 7 0 and see the "DM Software" line.
So far,
For C9s we have:
V41 011.00 <--SharpEdge and DeepField Imager in Picture and Picture+ menus, hours counter doesn't work
V41C 011.01 <--SE and DFI in Picture+ only, hours counter does work
V41C 011.02 <--SE and DFI in Picture+ only, hours counter does work
For 737s:
V41 011.00 <--hours doesn't work
V41 011.01 <--hours counter works
V41 011.02
For 837s:
V41+ 011.00 <--hours works
V41+ 011.01 <--hours works
V41+ 011.02 <--hours works
It appears that the total bulb hours counting problem is limited to C9 and 737 sets with the V41 011.00 firmware. 837s with V41+ 011.00 have been reported with their hours counter working.
The C9s lose the SharpEdge and DeepField Imager options in the main Picture menu with V41C 011.01 and 011.02, but they can still be turned on/off in the advanced Picture+ menu --on the other hand, C9 owners gain a working hours counter with V41C 011.01. Some owners of 737s have contacted Mits at 800-332-2119, reported their non-working hours counters and been sent the 11.01 firmware on a flash drive. After update, their hours counter works.
One C9 owner has reported by PM that he successfully updated his C9 with a 737 11.01 firmware and got the usual 737 options on the Picture menu --please note that any C9 owner who did so would be taking a considerable risk of unpleasant consequences if such an operation failed and they were left trying to get service from Mits under their warranty to fix it. Or even possibly if the operation was successful but they were later to require Mits service and a "pirate" firmware (for that model) was found on the set.
C9 owners should also consider that if SharpEdge and DeepField Imager options were taken away in the Picture menu with 11.01 and 11.02, they might disappear from Picture+ as well with a later firmware, if those were to appear, and thus should be cautious about updates from later version firmwares if/once they appear.
A 737 owner (me) updated his set with a C9 11.02 firmware provided to a C9 owner by Mits, and lost SharpEdge and DeepField Imager in the Picture menu, while having them remain in the Picture+ menu.
So it would appear that the C9 and 737 firmwares that Mits provides on its flash drives are different from each other.
The instructions for using the Flash drive provided by Mits are pretty specific. Here's Mark E. Hansen with them: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post17594485
Q29-A: Uhh, what if I have the firmware files from another source, but not one of Mitsu's special flash drives? Can I still use them to update the firmware on my TV?
A29-A: Well, remembering if you do such things you are possibly putting your warranty at risk, and do so on your own responsibility, at least one person has reported success in doing so (as of Dec 2009). It appears the key is to make your own flash drive a bootable drive before you copy/extract the Mitsu firmware files on to it. There are a variety of tools in the wild to make flash drives bootable, and presumably all/most would probably work. Then use the firmware update instructions linked in the question above this one. Here's the report I've had from user ponnie1996:
Q30: I'm having trouble getting 5.1 sound-out from the TVs digital sound out. What's up with that?
A30: The consensus on this is that Mits is following digital rights regulation here. The Mits will provide 5.1 sound-out for OTA antenna sources only. If you run your Blu-ray player directly to the TV, the sound-out should be stereo-only (some people have reported oddities getting it to output any sound in that scenario). If you want 5.1 sound for any non-OTA source, you need to run either HDMI, optical/digital coax, or the older 5.1 analog connector outputs directly from the input source to your home theater receiver.
QG1: Why a DLP?
AG1: The simple answer is price/value for truly large screens (60" or bigger). If you don't place a lot of value on having a bigger screen --or simply don't have room for one-- then you're probably not a good candidate for TVs built around this technology. We wish you luck and happiness in plasma-land or LCD-ville. But if you do place value on big, and have the room, and if your situation meets two other requirements (see RBE and viewing angles questions below), then you should definitely be considering a DLP in your decision making process at this time (2009).
Competing technologies like plasma and LCD have slowly been becoming more economical for larger sizes over time. Long-time observers of the DLP market will remember when it was possible to buy 52", 55" or 57" models in years past. Now the smallest DLP offered is 60" --the simple reason is because of advances with plasma and LCD it is no longer possible for DLPs to maintain their price/value competitive advantage at smaller sizes. The more expensive 837 lineup from Mitsubishi doesn't even start until 65" now, and presumably for the same reason.
But at 60" and above (and of course subject to the possibility of lucking into a "heckuvadeal" for a competitive product somewhere along the line), DLP generally has a substantial (even sometimes 2x, 3x, or more depending on the specific competitive product you're looking at) price advantage vs other technologies.
QG2: Should I place a lot of value on having a big screen?
AG2: Well, there's some questions specific to your own situation to answer there first before we get to more objective metrics that experts and scientists have come up (which is addressed in the "right size" question below). How much room do you have for one of these sets, remembering they aren't wall hangers and need to have some space behind them as well (there are dimension sheets upstream if you want specifics for these Mits units). How do you and the rest of the family feel about having a big ole TV in the living room/family room/wherever? Is the reaction "wow, great, a big TV!" or "that thing makes the living room ugly and takes up space!".
If you have the room, and the family buy-in, then many people are surprised when they find out for the first time what the experts and scientists say about screen size vs viewing distance for the optimum viewing experience of 1080p content (the highest currently available, usually available on Blu-ray discs and some download/VoD services). The expert recommendations are usually for a much bigger screen at a much closer distance than they would have suspected. We'll cover the particulars in the "right size" question below.
But perhaps the most basic question of all is --do you like to watch a lot of TV/movies in the first place, and place value on maximizing your enjoyment of doing so? If you don't answer 'yes' to that threshold question, the rest probably doesn't matter much.
QG3: How do DLPs compare to Plasma/LCD for picture quality?
AG3: Most people will tell you that inch-for-inch, the best plasmas (and be aware some are certainly much better than others) available offer the highest picture quality available on the market. The brightest screens, the best blacks, the least motion-blur, and the best viewing angles can all be found in the very best plasmas. De-juddering is available as well. The qualifying there is "inch-for-inch", and pricing comes into the matter as well for many prospective buyers. Go find 60" or bigger plasmas, price them. . . and maybe you'll find that an attractive proposition vs the same size DLP, or maybe you'll find yourself with a greater affection for DLPs.
LCDs are improving rapidly, and many observers think they are on the verge of dominating the TV market for the forseeable future until OLED or something else becomes more economical in the future. The best of the LCDs have been progressively reducing their inherent motion-blur issues, first with 120Hz and now some 240Hz sets, improving their blacks, and their brightness. The best also do de-juddering of 24fps content, and DLPs do not. But again, go price them at 60" and above and compare the results to similar sized DLPs. If you find that proposition attractive at the size you want, then more power to you.
DLP PQ tends to be filled with some caveats. . .IF you aren't subject to RBE. . . IF your viewing angles aren't too extreme. . . .IF you don't mind not having de-juddering. . . . THEN a lot of people will tell you the PQ is very competitive with the best plasma and LCD have to offer, and at a lesser price. And when we get to the "right size" question you'll see how experts will tell you that you should be considering screen size as part of the PQ equation to balance off an edge elsewhere that you feel a competing plasma or LCD has.
QG4: What's this "Rainbow Effect" (RBE) stuff I hear about, and will it impact me?
AG4: Rainbow Effect (a two word phrase that still turned into a three-letter acronym) is seeing color artifacting in the DLP picture, to lesser or greater degree, and finding it unpleasant and even sick-making to lesser or greater degree. It is specific to the DLP technology, and is caused by the interaction of the millions of little mirrors and the rapidly spinning colorwheel that combine to produce the picture.
There is a 2004 video (5MB in size) here that by purposefully moving the video camera rapidly side-to-side (the video camera's own fps recording rate helps in capturing the phenomenon) while pointed at a Samsung DLP artificially recreates RBE in such a manner that anyone can see it. You'll see the red/greens/blues separate and sparkle as the camera is rapidly moved side-to-side.
ftp://ftp.extremetech.com/pub/extrem...ainbowClip.wmv
Most people don't see RBE at all, or only on rare occassions. Many others only see it by purposefully trying to see it, by quickly flicking their eyes side to side. However, some people see it all the time and find it very unpleasant --they can even be made sick by it. In the worst (and rarest) case I've personally heard of, we had one gentleman on this thread who loved his new DLP on day one, reported no visible RBE. . . and about a week later he had to return the set because he found he was being fatigued/made queasy by long viewing sessions by his new TV (and never had been before with his older non-DLP TV). Tho in five years of hanging out in DLP forums, that's the first case of that kind (couldn't consciously see it, but was still made ill by it in long viewing sessions) I've seen. There is no way to predict whether you or your family will be subject to RBE other than going to a store and looking at these sets for yourself.
QG5: How about viewing angles with DLPs?
AG5: Rear Projection TVs have always been plagued by worse viewing angles than competing technologies. These 2009s show significant improvement on that score over sets from several years ago, but the issue is still there. To maximize brightness you'll want to place the set on a stand that will center it close to your eye level. Having said that, if you're sitting several feet away, the right-to-left viewing angles are pretty good (my main secondary viewing position is at about 45 degrees left angle and I notice very little loss of brightness from there). The up/down viewing angles are worse, and if your favorite viewing position of you or someone else in your family is lying on the floor about 2 feet in front of the TV looking up, you are not going to enjoy that experience at all. The further away you get, the better it is on that --I watch even our old 1st gen Mits 2004 62" while in the kitchen about 30' away and down 1/2 a floor (multi-level house) without issue; but even laying on the couch at 12' or sitting on the floor at that distance does not reduce brightness very much.
QG6: Any other major factors to consider between the technologies?
AG6: Well, DLPs aren't flat panels like Plasma and LCD. You won't be mounting them on the wall of your living room (probably), and if you understood the viewing angles discussion above, you wouldn't want to do so anyway. I personally find them to work best in corners with an appropriately angled stand as well (wider in the front than in the back, just like the TV itself), as they just kinda snuggle back into the corner that way --but plenty of people put them in front of long walls atop rectangular stands. The viewing angles to your preferred sitting position(s) really needs to drive that decision. The depth of the 2009 Mits models is from 15.1" (60" models) to 22.7" (82" models), depending on which model you are looking at. There are dimension sheets and spec sheets linked upstream in the Mits-specific section. If you value your bulb-life being longer than otherwise, you'll also leave a few extra inches of ventilation space for them as well so that warm air pushed out by the internal fans will have room to dissipate.
QG7: What's the "right size" screen for me?
There are two very telling graphics/charts by video expert Carlton Bale that make it easily understandable why if you are a PQ enthusiast you should be considering screen size vs sitting distance as an important factor in determining what the right size screen is for you. One of them shows at what distances the eye begins to perceive the differences, and at what distance the eye can fully comprehend the differences, in the quality of various resolution source images (480p, 720p, 1080p); the second talks about THX and SMPTE recommended and maximum distances for maximzing your movie enjoying experience.
Here's Stew4msu with the first graph: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post17046387
Here's Darin (a 2008 Mits DLP owner) showing and talking about the THX/SMPTE chart: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post17047904
They're telling you that if you're sitting at 11' from a 52" TV you won't even be able to tell the improvement of 1080P vs 720p at all --and if you're sitting more than 6' you won't perceive the full improvement of 1080p vs 720p. Also, if you're sitting more than 6' you're not getting what THX recommends for maximizing movie enjoyment.
So consider those graphs and your sitting distance when thinking about that drop-dead gorgeous 50" or 52" Plasma or LCD you're thinking has better PQ than a 65" or 73" DLP. I don't know about your people-watching experience in the TV aisles at stores, but what I usually see is most of the customers walking down the line at the same 3-4' distance from all the sets, regardless of size --that will inherently disadvantage DLPs in comparison (unless, of course, they intend to actually sit at 3-4' from their new set once it is in their living room).
It is worth noting that the graphs above are based on 20/20 vision. I'm not about to criticize that standard, developed by the vision industry --but will note that any standard inherently has its limitations. If your vision is significantly better than that (say, 20/15) you could sit further back. And if your vision is significantly worse than that (say, 20/40), you'd need to be closer to achieve the same effect.
Also, if you're wondering "just how much bigger is the screen area on one of these things than what I'm used to?" but don't have a bricks and mortar store nearby to look for yourself, try this handy tool to see if it helps you visualize the difference: http://tvcalculator.com/
QG8: I hear DLPs are dying off, is that a reason to not buy one? Should I be worried about spare parts availability in the future?
AG8: The first question to answer is, "why do you care if another technology 'wins' a few years down the line?" It won't make your 2009 TV any less compatible with future technologies than any other set on the market today. The LCDs or plasmas of 2009 will not gain any advantage if their champions route the competition in 2013. If anything, the 3D Nvidia gaming tech compatibility of these Mits may potentially give them an edge on "future proofing" over competitors (or not --see Q6 waaaay upstream). If anything, Samsung's exit from the DLP market puts Mitsubishi's DLP lineup in a stronger position, not a weaker one.
As to spare parts, starting with consumables like the bulbs, I don't see any reason to think so. Third parties already make those, and there is enough of a demand to keep that business going. Mits hasn't sold a 120W DLP set in several years, but those bulbs are still easy enough to come by (I know --I bought a new one two months ago).
Now, as to non-consumable parts, here's an ugly truth you won't enjoy, but is true from what I can see anyway --with the vast majority of HDTV era TVs, your chances of being screwed starting around year three when you need major spare parts if you don't have an extended warranty is already very high. For most (I want to say 'all' there, but perhaps someone is better at this than I think they are) manufacturers and model lines across all technologies that is true in my experience of being an observer and participant in the HDTV scene since 2001.
The reason is pretty simple --the way you get a really long life of major spare parts availability (by major I mean screens, engines (of whatever nature) motherboards, power rigging, all that big ticket stuff) is by having a pretty stable technology base for several years in a row. When you use the same part in building your TVs for several years in a row, you make a lot more of them, get even more on warranty returns when some other part fails, and have more reason/incentive to keep the availability of them high.
That's just not happened in the HDTV world yet; the tech is still changing/improving way too fast for that. Using the same major part for more than two model years in a row is still pretty rare at this point. Even in the (unlikely) possibility of DLP routing the competition to gain unquestioned dominance in the market by 2013. . .it is very unlikely to help you one bit in getting major spare parts for your 2009.
Customer expectations on this issue certainly vary widely --older owners used to mom's honkin' old 27" TV/furniture piece lasting 15 or 20 years often have quite a different sensibility than younger owners raised on replacing their PCs every two years.
But from what I can see, if you really hope to avoid buying another HDTV (after the one you're considering/just bought today, I mean) as long as possible, the answer is to buy the longest extended warranty you can find (five years is not unheard of to find one). And even then, there is a pretty good chance that what might happen is you get your longterm wish come true when the thing's [insert major part here] fails in year four and the warranty company decides to buy you a new TV of 2013 vintage technology when they can't find spare parts to fix your 2009. There are at least two or three new Mits owners on this very thread (and possibly more, that's just the ones who've said so publicly) who came to their new TVs by that model.
In my case I bought a 4 yr (total) warranty as a promise to the wife I wouldn't be in the market for another HDTV for the family room for at least that long.
I'm not sure if the above will be considered a controversial analysis/opinion or not (perhaps someone knows of another HDTV maker who has been a paragon of virtue in this area) --feel free to drop a note on the thread and argue with me if you think so.
QG9: Any suggestions for 3rd party extended warranty providers I could consider?
http://www.tapeworkstexas.com/mack_w..._tv_only_.html (Mack, TV only --4 yr total)
http://www.tapeworkstexas.com/mack_warranty_combo.html (Mack, TV and two bulbs --4 yr total on TV; 3 yr total on bulbs)
http://www.tapeworkstexas.com/5_year_tv_only_.html (Mack, TV only --5 yr total)
http://www.tapeworkstexas.com/cps_wa...under_500.html (CPS, TV only --6 yr total)
http://www.tapeworkstexas.com/cps_warranty_3yr_tv.html (CPS, TV only --4 yr total)
http://dtvexpress.com/ (DTVExpress, TV and one bulb --3 yr and 5 yr total available)
If anyone has other 3rd party warranty company suggestions to offer, drop me a PM or a note on the thread and I'll add them.
Please note that C9 and 737 models should calibrate very similarly. 837 models, because of the iris, may be somewhat different. Every DLP is somewhat different. . . and because of the bulb it may take up to 300 hours of use for your settings to settle down into optimum for your set.
Props to user "BigG" for collecting and forwarding many of the below. . . .
--------
Home Theater Magazine reviewed an 837 (see Q14 for link) and provided their own Picture+ settings:
The Contrast was set to 58, the Brightness to 29, the Lamp Energy to Standard, and the Gamma to 2.2.
H Picture: 31
V Picture: 31
Deep Field Imager: Off
Super Resolution: Off
Sharp Edge: Off
Video Noise: Off
Brightness: 29
Contrast: 58
Color: 33
Tint: 31
Sharpness: 10
Gamma: 2.2
Red High: 980
Green High: 988
Blue High: 1023
Red Low: 5
Green Low: -2
Blue Low: 0
Red: 11, 0, 0
Green: 0, 29, 0
Blue: 0, 0, 1
Yellow: 16, 15, 1
Cyan: 0, 18, 15
Magenta: 15, 13, 15
Film Mode: Auto
Smooth 120Hz: Off
Lamp Energy: Standard
------------------
From Thirdshifter after ISF'ing
Here are the setting from the Advanced picture settings.
H position: 31
v posisition : 31
Deepfield Imager: Off
Super resolution: Off
Sharpedge: Off
Video noise : Off
Brightness: 35
Contrast: 56
Color: 24
Tint: 28
Sharpness: 31
Gamma: 2.0
Red High: 1004
Green high: 988
Blue High: 1011
Red Low: 3
Green Low: 0
Blue Low: 0
Blue Only: off
Red Adjust: 15,0,0
Green adjust: 0,15,0
Blue Adjust: 0,0,15
Magenta adjust: 15,0,15
Cyan Adjust: 0,15,15
Yellow adjust: 15,15,0
Extra settings on Global Menu:
Smooth 120hz - OFF
I tried the settings from few page back.. and the ISF calibrator looked at it and it was way way off.
____________________________________________________________ _______________________
Originally Posted by fog80 View Post
Ok, these are the settings that made the difference for me. The set definitely needed some hours on it to start looking better.
Picture mode: adv
h pos: 31
v pos: 30
deepfield imager, super res, sharpedge: off
video noise: low
brightness: 33
contrast: 50
color: 31
tint: 31
sharpness: 50
gamma: 2.0
red high: 942
green high: 1023
blue high: 1018
red low: 6
green low: -1
blue low: 0
blue only: off
red adjust: 18,0,0
green adjust: 0,30,3
blue adjust: 0,0,0
Magenta adjust: 23,6,11
cyan adjust: 0,15,15
yellow adjust: 28,22,0
just wanted to add that the credit for these settings goes to someone else earlier in this thread. Just wanted to share that they worked really well on my set.
____________________________________________________________ _____________________________________
Originally Posted by bslep View Post
WD-82837 Grayscale after calibration = 6504
ISF Day
H Position 31
V Position 33
Deepfield Imager off
Super Resolution off
Sharp Edge off
Video Noise low
Brightness 29
Contrast 63
Color 29
Tint 31
Sharpness 31
Gamma 2.0
Red High 942
Green High 1023
Blue High 1018
Red Low 6
Green low -1
Blue Low 0
Blue Only off
Red Adjust 18, 0, 0
Green Adjust 0, 30, 3
Blue Adjust 0, 0, 0
Magenta Adjust 23, 6, 11
Cyan Adjust 0, 15, 15
Yellow Adjust 28, 22, 0
ISF Night
H Position 31
V Position 33
Deepfield Imager off
Super Resolution off
Sharp Edge off
Video Noise low
Brightness 32
Contrast 50
Color 29
Tint 31
Sharpness 31
Gamma 2.2
Red High 942
Green High 1023
Blue High 1022
Red Low 7
Green low 0
Blue Low 0
Blue Only off
Red Adjust 24, 0, 0
Green Adjust 0, 28, 6
Blue Adjust 0, 0, 0
Magenta Adjust 27, 5, 13
Cyan Adjust 0, 15, 16
Yellow Adjust 28, 24, 0
____________________________________________________________ _______________
happy nightmares
837
Picture Mode - Natural
Contrast - 45
Brightness - 30
Color - 29
Tint - 31 (default)
Sharpness - 31 (default)
Color Temperature - Low
Video Noise - Off
SharpEdge - Off
DeepField Imager - Off
------------------------------
I've been focused on finding a good all-purpose baseline setting, and that's it.
This is not about making the picture 'pop'... it's about a natural, clean, un-enhanced picture, that looks good with any decent HD, from movies to video games.
____________________________________________________________ _________________________________
Originally Posted by dreaux View Post
Here are the settings I am using after my DVE calibration
Pic Mode---Brilliant
Contrast---50
Brightness---31
Color---31
Tint---31
Sharpness---21
Color temp---High
Video noise---Med
Sharp edge---on
Deepfield Imager---on
Global
Film mode---auto
Smooth 120Hz---on
Pics of 82837------(I tend to like bright color settings with 'pop').
____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________
Here is the settings that Katzmaier used for the 65737.
Picture menu, Video Settings, Picture Mode: ADV
Picture + menu, Advanced Picture Settings
Picture Mode: ADV
H Position: 33
V Position: 28
Deepfield Imager: Off
Super Resolution: Off
SharpEdge: Off
Video Noise: Off
Brightness: 34
Contrast: 31
Color: 29
Tint: 30
Sharpness: 31
Gamma: 2.2
Red High: 986
Green High: 1021
Blue High: 1014
Red Low: 5
Green Low: -1
Blue Low: -1
Blue Only: Off
Red Adjust: 15, 0, 0
Green Adjust: 0, 15, 0
Blue Adjust: 0, 0, 15
Magenta Adjust: 15, 0, 15
Cyan Adjust: 0, 15, 15
Yellow Adjust: 15, 15, 0
Global menu:
Film Mode: Auto
Smooth 120Hz: On
Initial menu, Lamp:
Lamp Energy: Standard
____________________________________________________________ ______
uric3
Picture Mode: Neutral
Contrast: 63
Bright: 23
Colour: 40
Tint: 31
Sharpness: 63
Colour Temp: Low
Video Noise: Off
Sharper Edge: Off
Deep Field Image: On
Global Settings
Video Mute: On (not sure what this does)
Screen Saver: On
Film Mode: Auto
120hz: On
Blue Glow: Off
------------------------------------------------
Ionblue 60737:
Picture mode: adv
h pos: 31
v pos: 30
deepfield imager, super res, sharpedge: off
video noise: low
brightness: 21
contrast: 43
color: 19
tint: 26
sharpness: 10
gamma: 2.0
red high: 980
green high: 1021
blue high: 1014
red low: 6
green low: -1
blue low: 0
blue only: off
red adjust: 17,0,0
green adjust: 0,20,3
blue adjust: 0,0,0
Magenta adjust: 18,2,12
cyan adjust: 0,15,15
yellow adjust: 20,13,0
++++
Bill Broderick's 82837
Here are the results of the ISF Calibration for my WD82837:
ISF Day
Deepfield Imager Off
Super Resolution Off
Sharp Edge Off
Video Noise Low
Brightness 32
Contrast 63
Color 29
Tint 29
Sharpness 31
Gamma 2.2
Red High 1019
Green High 1004
Blue High 1023
Red Low 8
Green Low -1
Blue Low -1
Blue Only Off
Red Adjust 30,2,5
Green Adjust 0,25,3
Blue Adjust 0,0,0,
Magenta Adjust 13,11,11
Cyan Adjust 0,14,15
Yellow Adjust 21,16,0
ISF Night
Everything the same as ISF day except:
Contrast 63
Tint 29
Red Low 7
When I first got my TV, I set ADV1 & ADV2 using the calibration that someone else had posted earlier in this tread (for the 73" model, I believe). The picture was pretty accurate with those settings. According to the post calibration graphs that I received, my initial color temperature was a pretty flat 7000K and 2D color was just a little bit off. After calibration, I'm nearly dead on at 6500K and 2D color is just about right on the nose.
++++++
nicholc2's settings for two sets he calibrated:
Be careful all! Blue is for the color blue to adjust it on the x,y,Y axis'. I have yet to calibrate either a 737 or 837 that I didn't have to have blue at 0, 0, 0.
Blue High is strictly for gray scale adjustments, it doesn't affect the primary itself.
Also, just to show how differently each set is when it is properly calibrated, here are the final settings from two different calibrations. One from a 73837 and one from a 65737.
73837:
Brightness 29
Contrast 56
Color 36
Tint 31
Sharpness 31
Gamma 2.2
Red High 964
Green High 1000
Blue High 1023
Red Low 10
Green Low 4
Blue Low 1
Red Adjust 9, 0, 0
Green Adjust 0, 29, 12
Blue Adjust 0, 0, 0
Magenta Adjust 21, 12, 8
Cyan Adjust 0, 10, 11
Yellow Adjust 26, 18, 9
65737:
Brightness 28
Contrast 53
Color 31
Tint 31
Sharpness 31
Gamma 2.2
Red High 976
Green High 1021
Blue High 1023
Red Low 6
Green Low -1
Blue Low 5
Red Adjust 9, 0, 0
Green Adjust 0, 30, 7
Blue Adjust 0, 0, 0
Magenta Adjust 11, 11, 11
Cyan Adjust 2, 18, 17
Yellow Adjust 28, 25, 6
__________________
MTyson:
Anyway, here are my new settings (still working on getting the best out of this set). I'm still working on trying to perfect the picture.
Sharp Edge, Deep Field Image & Super Resolution: Off
Contrast: 50
Brightness: 38 (since sets seem to vary on this and if you don't have a calibration disc I would just put in a blu-ray or dvd and pause on a full fade to black and turn brightness down just until it stops dimming then if you want better dark detail up it 4-8 points higher).
Tint: 31
Color: 29
Gamma: 2.2
Red High: 1010
Green High: 990
Blue High: 975
Red Low: 10
Green Low: -1
Blue Low: -2
Red Adjust: 18, 0, 0
Green Adjust: 0, 17, 0
Blue Adjust: 0, 0, 0
Magenta Adjust: 13, 0, 11
Cyan Adjust: 0, 17, 11
Yellow Adjust: 23, 19, 0
__________________
Buddhawood's ISF calibrated WD-73737:
Here are the setting from the Advanced picture settings.
H position: 31
v posisition : 30
Deepfield Imager: Off
Super resolution: Off
Sharpedge: Off
Video noise : Off
Brightness: 34
Contrast: 57
Color: 30
Tint: 31
Sharpness: 25
Gamma: 2.4
Red High: 1007
Green high: 1023
Blue High: 1023
Red Low: 10
Green Low: -2
Blue Low: 0
Blue Only: off
Red Adjust: 18,2,8
Green adjust: 0,26,15
Blue Adjust: 0,0,0
Magenta adjust: 12,11,10
Cyan Adjust: 0,8,11
Yellow adjust: 25,20,7
So far,
For C9s we have:
V41 011.00 <--SharpEdge and DeepField Imager in Picture and Picture+ menus, hours counter doesn't work
V41C 011.01 <--SE and DFI in Picture+ only, hours counter does work
V41C 011.02 <--SE and DFI in Picture+ only, hours counter does work
For 737s:
V41 011.00 <--hours doesn't work
V41 011.01 <--hours counter works
V41 011.02
For 837s:
V41+ 011.00 <--hours works
V41+ 011.01 <--hours works
V41+ 011.02 <--hours works
It appears that the total bulb hours counting problem is limited to C9 and 737 sets with the V41 011.00 firmware. 837s with V41+ 011.00 have been reported with their hours counter working.
The C9s lose the SharpEdge and DeepField Imager options in the main Picture menu with V41C 011.01 and 011.02, but they can still be turned on/off in the advanced Picture+ menu --on the other hand, C9 owners gain a working hours counter with V41C 011.01. Some owners of 737s have contacted Mits at 800-332-2119, reported their non-working hours counters and been sent the 11.01 firmware on a flash drive. After update, their hours counter works.
One C9 owner has reported by PM that he successfully updated his C9 with a 737 11.01 firmware and got the usual 737 options on the Picture menu --please note that any C9 owner who did so would be taking a considerable risk of unpleasant consequences if such an operation failed and they were left trying to get service from Mits under their warranty to fix it. Or even possibly if the operation was successful but they were later to require Mits service and a "pirate" firmware (for that model) was found on the set.
C9 owners should also consider that if SharpEdge and DeepField Imager options were taken away in the Picture menu with 11.01 and 11.02, they might disappear from Picture+ as well with a later firmware, if those were to appear, and thus should be cautious about updates from later version firmwares if/once they appear.
A 737 owner (me) updated his set with a C9 11.02 firmware provided to a C9 owner by Mits, and lost SharpEdge and DeepField Imager in the Picture menu, while having them remain in the Picture+ menu.
So it would appear that the C9 and 737 firmwares that Mits provides on its flash drives are different from each other.
The instructions for using the Flash drive provided by Mits are pretty specific. Here's Mark E. Hansen with them: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...5#post17594485
Q29-A: Uhh, what if I have the firmware files from another source, but not one of Mitsu's special flash drives? Can I still use them to update the firmware on my TV?
A29-A: Well, remembering if you do such things you are possibly putting your warranty at risk, and do so on your own responsibility, at least one person has reported success in doing so (as of Dec 2009). It appears the key is to make your own flash drive a bootable drive before you copy/extract the Mitsu firmware files on to it. There are a variety of tools in the wild to make flash drives bootable, and presumably all/most would probably work. Then use the firmware update instructions linked in the question above this one. Here's the report I've had from user ponnie1996:
Quote:
I got it to work!
OK here's what I did:
made usb bootable using HP Drive Key Boot Utility downloaded from HP site
then used DCMage to extract ISO image files onto the USB (files in the Kingston (F) directory - 5 files total: cfe.bin, installtvapp.sh, sysinit.txt, tvapps.tar, vmlinuz-initrd-3548b-snp-nand
http://www.videohelp.com/tools/CDMage
Once bootable files were on usb with ISO extracted files - I followed the instructions and bingo it worked first shot
I got it to work!
OK here's what I did:
made usb bootable using HP Drive Key Boot Utility downloaded from HP site
then used DCMage to extract ISO image files onto the USB (files in the Kingston (F) directory - 5 files total: cfe.bin, installtvapp.sh, sysinit.txt, tvapps.tar, vmlinuz-initrd-3548b-snp-nand
http://www.videohelp.com/tools/CDMage
Once bootable files were on usb with ISO extracted files - I followed the instructions and bingo it worked first shot
Q30: I'm having trouble getting 5.1 sound-out from the TVs digital sound out. What's up with that?
A30: The consensus on this is that Mits is following digital rights regulation here. The Mits will provide 5.1 sound-out for OTA antenna sources only. If you run your Blu-ray player directly to the TV, the sound-out should be stereo-only (some people have reported oddities getting it to output any sound in that scenario). If you want 5.1 sound for any non-OTA source, you need to run either HDMI, optical/digital coax, or the older 5.1 analog connector outputs directly from the input source to your home theater receiver.
Some Q/A About DLPs and Big Screens in General
QG1: Why a DLP?
AG1: The simple answer is price/value for truly large screens (60" or bigger). If you don't place a lot of value on having a bigger screen --or simply don't have room for one-- then you're probably not a good candidate for TVs built around this technology. We wish you luck and happiness in plasma-land or LCD-ville. But if you do place value on big, and have the room, and if your situation meets two other requirements (see RBE and viewing angles questions below), then you should definitely be considering a DLP in your decision making process at this time (2009).
Competing technologies like plasma and LCD have slowly been becoming more economical for larger sizes over time. Long-time observers of the DLP market will remember when it was possible to buy 52", 55" or 57" models in years past. Now the smallest DLP offered is 60" --the simple reason is because of advances with plasma and LCD it is no longer possible for DLPs to maintain their price/value competitive advantage at smaller sizes. The more expensive 837 lineup from Mitsubishi doesn't even start until 65" now, and presumably for the same reason.
But at 60" and above (and of course subject to the possibility of lucking into a "heckuvadeal" for a competitive product somewhere along the line), DLP generally has a substantial (even sometimes 2x, 3x, or more depending on the specific competitive product you're looking at) price advantage vs other technologies.
QG2: Should I place a lot of value on having a big screen?
AG2: Well, there's some questions specific to your own situation to answer there first before we get to more objective metrics that experts and scientists have come up (which is addressed in the "right size" question below). How much room do you have for one of these sets, remembering they aren't wall hangers and need to have some space behind them as well (there are dimension sheets upstream if you want specifics for these Mits units). How do you and the rest of the family feel about having a big ole TV in the living room/family room/wherever? Is the reaction "wow, great, a big TV!" or "that thing makes the living room ugly and takes up space!".
If you have the room, and the family buy-in, then many people are surprised when they find out for the first time what the experts and scientists say about screen size vs viewing distance for the optimum viewing experience of 1080p content (the highest currently available, usually available on Blu-ray discs and some download/VoD services). The expert recommendations are usually for a much bigger screen at a much closer distance than they would have suspected. We'll cover the particulars in the "right size" question below.
But perhaps the most basic question of all is --do you like to watch a lot of TV/movies in the first place, and place value on maximizing your enjoyment of doing so? If you don't answer 'yes' to that threshold question, the rest probably doesn't matter much.
QG3: How do DLPs compare to Plasma/LCD for picture quality?
AG3: Most people will tell you that inch-for-inch, the best plasmas (and be aware some are certainly much better than others) available offer the highest picture quality available on the market. The brightest screens, the best blacks, the least motion-blur, and the best viewing angles can all be found in the very best plasmas. De-juddering is available as well. The qualifying there is "inch-for-inch", and pricing comes into the matter as well for many prospective buyers. Go find 60" or bigger plasmas, price them. . . and maybe you'll find that an attractive proposition vs the same size DLP, or maybe you'll find yourself with a greater affection for DLPs.
LCDs are improving rapidly, and many observers think they are on the verge of dominating the TV market for the forseeable future until OLED or something else becomes more economical in the future. The best of the LCDs have been progressively reducing their inherent motion-blur issues, first with 120Hz and now some 240Hz sets, improving their blacks, and their brightness. The best also do de-juddering of 24fps content, and DLPs do not. But again, go price them at 60" and above and compare the results to similar sized DLPs. If you find that proposition attractive at the size you want, then more power to you.
DLP PQ tends to be filled with some caveats. . .IF you aren't subject to RBE. . . IF your viewing angles aren't too extreme. . . .IF you don't mind not having de-juddering. . . . THEN a lot of people will tell you the PQ is very competitive with the best plasma and LCD have to offer, and at a lesser price. And when we get to the "right size" question you'll see how experts will tell you that you should be considering screen size as part of the PQ equation to balance off an edge elsewhere that you feel a competing plasma or LCD has.
QG4: What's this "Rainbow Effect" (RBE) stuff I hear about, and will it impact me?
AG4: Rainbow Effect (a two word phrase that still turned into a three-letter acronym) is seeing color artifacting in the DLP picture, to lesser or greater degree, and finding it unpleasant and even sick-making to lesser or greater degree. It is specific to the DLP technology, and is caused by the interaction of the millions of little mirrors and the rapidly spinning colorwheel that combine to produce the picture.
There is a 2004 video (5MB in size) here that by purposefully moving the video camera rapidly side-to-side (the video camera's own fps recording rate helps in capturing the phenomenon) while pointed at a Samsung DLP artificially recreates RBE in such a manner that anyone can see it. You'll see the red/greens/blues separate and sparkle as the camera is rapidly moved side-to-side.
ftp://ftp.extremetech.com/pub/extrem...ainbowClip.wmv
Most people don't see RBE at all, or only on rare occassions. Many others only see it by purposefully trying to see it, by quickly flicking their eyes side to side. However, some people see it all the time and find it very unpleasant --they can even be made sick by it. In the worst (and rarest) case I've personally heard of, we had one gentleman on this thread who loved his new DLP on day one, reported no visible RBE. . . and about a week later he had to return the set because he found he was being fatigued/made queasy by long viewing sessions by his new TV (and never had been before with his older non-DLP TV). Tho in five years of hanging out in DLP forums, that's the first case of that kind (couldn't consciously see it, but was still made ill by it in long viewing sessions) I've seen. There is no way to predict whether you or your family will be subject to RBE other than going to a store and looking at these sets for yourself.
QG5: How about viewing angles with DLPs?
AG5: Rear Projection TVs have always been plagued by worse viewing angles than competing technologies. These 2009s show significant improvement on that score over sets from several years ago, but the issue is still there. To maximize brightness you'll want to place the set on a stand that will center it close to your eye level. Having said that, if you're sitting several feet away, the right-to-left viewing angles are pretty good (my main secondary viewing position is at about 45 degrees left angle and I notice very little loss of brightness from there). The up/down viewing angles are worse, and if your favorite viewing position of you or someone else in your family is lying on the floor about 2 feet in front of the TV looking up, you are not going to enjoy that experience at all. The further away you get, the better it is on that --I watch even our old 1st gen Mits 2004 62" while in the kitchen about 30' away and down 1/2 a floor (multi-level house) without issue; but even laying on the couch at 12' or sitting on the floor at that distance does not reduce brightness very much.
QG6: Any other major factors to consider between the technologies?
AG6: Well, DLPs aren't flat panels like Plasma and LCD. You won't be mounting them on the wall of your living room (probably), and if you understood the viewing angles discussion above, you wouldn't want to do so anyway. I personally find them to work best in corners with an appropriately angled stand as well (wider in the front than in the back, just like the TV itself), as they just kinda snuggle back into the corner that way --but plenty of people put them in front of long walls atop rectangular stands. The viewing angles to your preferred sitting position(s) really needs to drive that decision. The depth of the 2009 Mits models is from 15.1" (60" models) to 22.7" (82" models), depending on which model you are looking at. There are dimension sheets and spec sheets linked upstream in the Mits-specific section. If you value your bulb-life being longer than otherwise, you'll also leave a few extra inches of ventilation space for them as well so that warm air pushed out by the internal fans will have room to dissipate.
QG7: What's the "right size" screen for me?
There are two very telling graphics/charts by video expert Carlton Bale that make it easily understandable why if you are a PQ enthusiast you should be considering screen size vs sitting distance as an important factor in determining what the right size screen is for you. One of them shows at what distances the eye begins to perceive the differences, and at what distance the eye can fully comprehend the differences, in the quality of various resolution source images (480p, 720p, 1080p); the second talks about THX and SMPTE recommended and maximum distances for maximzing your movie enjoying experience.
Here's Stew4msu with the first graph: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...7#post17046387
Here's Darin (a 2008 Mits DLP owner) showing and talking about the THX/SMPTE chart: http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...4#post17047904
They're telling you that if you're sitting at 11' from a 52" TV you won't even be able to tell the improvement of 1080P vs 720p at all --and if you're sitting more than 6' you won't perceive the full improvement of 1080p vs 720p. Also, if you're sitting more than 6' you're not getting what THX recommends for maximizing movie enjoyment.
So consider those graphs and your sitting distance when thinking about that drop-dead gorgeous 50" or 52" Plasma or LCD you're thinking has better PQ than a 65" or 73" DLP. I don't know about your people-watching experience in the TV aisles at stores, but what I usually see is most of the customers walking down the line at the same 3-4' distance from all the sets, regardless of size --that will inherently disadvantage DLPs in comparison (unless, of course, they intend to actually sit at 3-4' from their new set once it is in their living room).
It is worth noting that the graphs above are based on 20/20 vision. I'm not about to criticize that standard, developed by the vision industry --but will note that any standard inherently has its limitations. If your vision is significantly better than that (say, 20/15) you could sit further back. And if your vision is significantly worse than that (say, 20/40), you'd need to be closer to achieve the same effect.
Also, if you're wondering "just how much bigger is the screen area on one of these things than what I'm used to?" but don't have a bricks and mortar store nearby to look for yourself, try this handy tool to see if it helps you visualize the difference: http://tvcalculator.com/
QG8: I hear DLPs are dying off, is that a reason to not buy one? Should I be worried about spare parts availability in the future?
AG8: The first question to answer is, "why do you care if another technology 'wins' a few years down the line?" It won't make your 2009 TV any less compatible with future technologies than any other set on the market today. The LCDs or plasmas of 2009 will not gain any advantage if their champions route the competition in 2013. If anything, the 3D Nvidia gaming tech compatibility of these Mits may potentially give them an edge on "future proofing" over competitors (or not --see Q6 waaaay upstream). If anything, Samsung's exit from the DLP market puts Mitsubishi's DLP lineup in a stronger position, not a weaker one.
As to spare parts, starting with consumables like the bulbs, I don't see any reason to think so. Third parties already make those, and there is enough of a demand to keep that business going. Mits hasn't sold a 120W DLP set in several years, but those bulbs are still easy enough to come by (I know --I bought a new one two months ago).
Now, as to non-consumable parts, here's an ugly truth you won't enjoy, but is true from what I can see anyway --with the vast majority of HDTV era TVs, your chances of being screwed starting around year three when you need major spare parts if you don't have an extended warranty is already very high. For most (I want to say 'all' there, but perhaps someone is better at this than I think they are) manufacturers and model lines across all technologies that is true in my experience of being an observer and participant in the HDTV scene since 2001.
The reason is pretty simple --the way you get a really long life of major spare parts availability (by major I mean screens, engines (of whatever nature) motherboards, power rigging, all that big ticket stuff) is by having a pretty stable technology base for several years in a row. When you use the same part in building your TVs for several years in a row, you make a lot more of them, get even more on warranty returns when some other part fails, and have more reason/incentive to keep the availability of them high.
That's just not happened in the HDTV world yet; the tech is still changing/improving way too fast for that. Using the same major part for more than two model years in a row is still pretty rare at this point. Even in the (unlikely) possibility of DLP routing the competition to gain unquestioned dominance in the market by 2013. . .it is very unlikely to help you one bit in getting major spare parts for your 2009.
Customer expectations on this issue certainly vary widely --older owners used to mom's honkin' old 27" TV/furniture piece lasting 15 or 20 years often have quite a different sensibility than younger owners raised on replacing their PCs every two years.
But from what I can see, if you really hope to avoid buying another HDTV (after the one you're considering/just bought today, I mean) as long as possible, the answer is to buy the longest extended warranty you can find (five years is not unheard of to find one). And even then, there is a pretty good chance that what might happen is you get your longterm wish come true when the thing's [insert major part here] fails in year four and the warranty company decides to buy you a new TV of 2013 vintage technology when they can't find spare parts to fix your 2009. There are at least two or three new Mits owners on this very thread (and possibly more, that's just the ones who've said so publicly) who came to their new TVs by that model.
In my case I bought a 4 yr (total) warranty as a promise to the wife I wouldn't be in the market for another HDTV for the family room for at least that long.
I'm not sure if the above will be considered a controversial analysis/opinion or not (perhaps someone knows of another HDTV maker who has been a paragon of virtue in this area) --feel free to drop a note on the thread and argue with me if you think so.
QG9: Any suggestions for 3rd party extended warranty providers I could consider?
http://www.tapeworkstexas.com/mack_w..._tv_only_.html (Mack, TV only --4 yr total)
http://www.tapeworkstexas.com/mack_warranty_combo.html (Mack, TV and two bulbs --4 yr total on TV; 3 yr total on bulbs)
http://www.tapeworkstexas.com/5_year_tv_only_.html (Mack, TV only --5 yr total)
http://www.tapeworkstexas.com/cps_wa...under_500.html (CPS, TV only --6 yr total)
http://www.tapeworkstexas.com/cps_warranty_3yr_tv.html (CPS, TV only --4 yr total)
http://dtvexpress.com/ (DTVExpress, TV and one bulb --3 yr and 5 yr total available)
If anyone has other 3rd party warranty company suggestions to offer, drop me a PM or a note on the thread and I'll add them.
A Few Early Owners PQ Settings as Reported On This Thread
Please note that C9 and 737 models should calibrate very similarly. 837 models, because of the iris, may be somewhat different. Every DLP is somewhat different. . . and because of the bulb it may take up to 300 hours of use for your settings to settle down into optimum for your set.
Props to user "BigG" for collecting and forwarding many of the below. . . .
--------
Home Theater Magazine reviewed an 837 (see Q14 for link) and provided their own Picture+ settings:
The Contrast was set to 58, the Brightness to 29, the Lamp Energy to Standard, and the Gamma to 2.2.
H Picture: 31
V Picture: 31
Deep Field Imager: Off
Super Resolution: Off
Sharp Edge: Off
Video Noise: Off
Brightness: 29
Contrast: 58
Color: 33
Tint: 31
Sharpness: 10
Gamma: 2.2
Red High: 980
Green High: 988
Blue High: 1023
Red Low: 5
Green Low: -2
Blue Low: 0
Red: 11, 0, 0
Green: 0, 29, 0
Blue: 0, 0, 1
Yellow: 16, 15, 1
Cyan: 0, 18, 15
Magenta: 15, 13, 15
Film Mode: Auto
Smooth 120Hz: Off
Lamp Energy: Standard
------------------
From Thirdshifter after ISF'ing
Here are the setting from the Advanced picture settings.
H position: 31
v posisition : 31
Deepfield Imager: Off
Super resolution: Off
Sharpedge: Off
Video noise : Off
Brightness: 35
Contrast: 56
Color: 24
Tint: 28
Sharpness: 31
Gamma: 2.0
Red High: 1004
Green high: 988
Blue High: 1011
Red Low: 3
Green Low: 0
Blue Low: 0
Blue Only: off
Red Adjust: 15,0,0
Green adjust: 0,15,0
Blue Adjust: 0,0,15
Magenta adjust: 15,0,15
Cyan Adjust: 0,15,15
Yellow adjust: 15,15,0
Extra settings on Global Menu:
Smooth 120hz - OFF
I tried the settings from few page back.. and the ISF calibrator looked at it and it was way way off.
____________________________________________________________ _______________________
Originally Posted by fog80 View Post
Ok, these are the settings that made the difference for me. The set definitely needed some hours on it to start looking better.
Picture mode: adv
h pos: 31
v pos: 30
deepfield imager, super res, sharpedge: off
video noise: low
brightness: 33
contrast: 50
color: 31
tint: 31
sharpness: 50
gamma: 2.0
red high: 942
green high: 1023
blue high: 1018
red low: 6
green low: -1
blue low: 0
blue only: off
red adjust: 18,0,0
green adjust: 0,30,3
blue adjust: 0,0,0
Magenta adjust: 23,6,11
cyan adjust: 0,15,15
yellow adjust: 28,22,0
just wanted to add that the credit for these settings goes to someone else earlier in this thread. Just wanted to share that they worked really well on my set.
____________________________________________________________ _____________________________________
Originally Posted by bslep View Post
WD-82837 Grayscale after calibration = 6504
ISF Day
H Position 31
V Position 33
Deepfield Imager off
Super Resolution off
Sharp Edge off
Video Noise low
Brightness 29
Contrast 63
Color 29
Tint 31
Sharpness 31
Gamma 2.0
Red High 942
Green High 1023
Blue High 1018
Red Low 6
Green low -1
Blue Low 0
Blue Only off
Red Adjust 18, 0, 0
Green Adjust 0, 30, 3
Blue Adjust 0, 0, 0
Magenta Adjust 23, 6, 11
Cyan Adjust 0, 15, 15
Yellow Adjust 28, 22, 0
ISF Night
H Position 31
V Position 33
Deepfield Imager off
Super Resolution off
Sharp Edge off
Video Noise low
Brightness 32
Contrast 50
Color 29
Tint 31
Sharpness 31
Gamma 2.2
Red High 942
Green High 1023
Blue High 1022
Red Low 7
Green low 0
Blue Low 0
Blue Only off
Red Adjust 24, 0, 0
Green Adjust 0, 28, 6
Blue Adjust 0, 0, 0
Magenta Adjust 27, 5, 13
Cyan Adjust 0, 15, 16
Yellow Adjust 28, 24, 0
____________________________________________________________ _______________
happy nightmares
837
Picture Mode - Natural
Contrast - 45
Brightness - 30
Color - 29
Tint - 31 (default)
Sharpness - 31 (default)
Color Temperature - Low
Video Noise - Off
SharpEdge - Off
DeepField Imager - Off
------------------------------
I've been focused on finding a good all-purpose baseline setting, and that's it.
This is not about making the picture 'pop'... it's about a natural, clean, un-enhanced picture, that looks good with any decent HD, from movies to video games.
____________________________________________________________ _________________________________
Originally Posted by dreaux View Post
Here are the settings I am using after my DVE calibration
Pic Mode---Brilliant
Contrast---50
Brightness---31
Color---31
Tint---31
Sharpness---21
Color temp---High
Video noise---Med
Sharp edge---on
Deepfield Imager---on
Global
Film mode---auto
Smooth 120Hz---on
Pics of 82837------(I tend to like bright color settings with 'pop').
____________________________________________________________ _______________________________________
Here is the settings that Katzmaier used for the 65737.
Picture menu, Video Settings, Picture Mode: ADV
Picture + menu, Advanced Picture Settings
Picture Mode: ADV
H Position: 33
V Position: 28
Deepfield Imager: Off
Super Resolution: Off
SharpEdge: Off
Video Noise: Off
Brightness: 34
Contrast: 31
Color: 29
Tint: 30
Sharpness: 31
Gamma: 2.2
Red High: 986
Green High: 1021
Blue High: 1014
Red Low: 5
Green Low: -1
Blue Low: -1
Blue Only: Off
Red Adjust: 15, 0, 0
Green Adjust: 0, 15, 0
Blue Adjust: 0, 0, 15
Magenta Adjust: 15, 0, 15
Cyan Adjust: 0, 15, 15
Yellow Adjust: 15, 15, 0
Global menu:
Film Mode: Auto
Smooth 120Hz: On
Initial menu, Lamp:
Lamp Energy: Standard
____________________________________________________________ ______
uric3
Picture Mode: Neutral
Contrast: 63
Bright: 23
Colour: 40
Tint: 31
Sharpness: 63
Colour Temp: Low
Video Noise: Off
Sharper Edge: Off
Deep Field Image: On
Global Settings
Video Mute: On (not sure what this does)
Screen Saver: On
Film Mode: Auto
120hz: On
Blue Glow: Off
------------------------------------------------
Ionblue 60737:
Picture mode: adv
h pos: 31
v pos: 30
deepfield imager, super res, sharpedge: off
video noise: low
brightness: 21
contrast: 43
color: 19
tint: 26
sharpness: 10
gamma: 2.0
red high: 980
green high: 1021
blue high: 1014
red low: 6
green low: -1
blue low: 0
blue only: off
red adjust: 17,0,0
green adjust: 0,20,3
blue adjust: 0,0,0
Magenta adjust: 18,2,12
cyan adjust: 0,15,15
yellow adjust: 20,13,0
++++
Bill Broderick's 82837
Here are the results of the ISF Calibration for my WD82837:
ISF Day
Deepfield Imager Off
Super Resolution Off
Sharp Edge Off
Video Noise Low
Brightness 32
Contrast 63
Color 29
Tint 29
Sharpness 31
Gamma 2.2
Red High 1019
Green High 1004
Blue High 1023
Red Low 8
Green Low -1
Blue Low -1
Blue Only Off
Red Adjust 30,2,5
Green Adjust 0,25,3
Blue Adjust 0,0,0,
Magenta Adjust 13,11,11
Cyan Adjust 0,14,15
Yellow Adjust 21,16,0
ISF Night
Everything the same as ISF day except:
Contrast 63
Tint 29
Red Low 7
When I first got my TV, I set ADV1 & ADV2 using the calibration that someone else had posted earlier in this tread (for the 73" model, I believe). The picture was pretty accurate with those settings. According to the post calibration graphs that I received, my initial color temperature was a pretty flat 7000K and 2D color was just a little bit off. After calibration, I'm nearly dead on at 6500K and 2D color is just about right on the nose.
++++++
nicholc2's settings for two sets he calibrated:
Be careful all! Blue is for the color blue to adjust it on the x,y,Y axis'. I have yet to calibrate either a 737 or 837 that I didn't have to have blue at 0, 0, 0.
Blue High is strictly for gray scale adjustments, it doesn't affect the primary itself.
Also, just to show how differently each set is when it is properly calibrated, here are the final settings from two different calibrations. One from a 73837 and one from a 65737.
73837:
Brightness 29
Contrast 56
Color 36
Tint 31
Sharpness 31
Gamma 2.2
Red High 964
Green High 1000
Blue High 1023
Red Low 10
Green Low 4
Blue Low 1
Red Adjust 9, 0, 0
Green Adjust 0, 29, 12
Blue Adjust 0, 0, 0
Magenta Adjust 21, 12, 8
Cyan Adjust 0, 10, 11
Yellow Adjust 26, 18, 9
65737:
Brightness 28
Contrast 53
Color 31
Tint 31
Sharpness 31
Gamma 2.2
Red High 976
Green High 1021
Blue High 1023
Red Low 6
Green Low -1
Blue Low 5
Red Adjust 9, 0, 0
Green Adjust 0, 30, 7
Blue Adjust 0, 0, 0
Magenta Adjust 11, 11, 11
Cyan Adjust 2, 18, 17
Yellow Adjust 28, 25, 6
__________________
MTyson:
Anyway, here are my new settings (still working on getting the best out of this set). I'm still working on trying to perfect the picture.
Sharp Edge, Deep Field Image & Super Resolution: Off
Contrast: 50
Brightness: 38 (since sets seem to vary on this and if you don't have a calibration disc I would just put in a blu-ray or dvd and pause on a full fade to black and turn brightness down just until it stops dimming then if you want better dark detail up it 4-8 points higher).
Tint: 31
Color: 29
Gamma: 2.2
Red High: 1010
Green High: 990
Blue High: 975
Red Low: 10
Green Low: -1
Blue Low: -2
Red Adjust: 18, 0, 0
Green Adjust: 0, 17, 0
Blue Adjust: 0, 0, 0
Magenta Adjust: 13, 0, 11
Cyan Adjust: 0, 17, 11
Yellow Adjust: 23, 19, 0
__________________
Buddhawood's ISF calibrated WD-73737:
Here are the setting from the Advanced picture settings.
H position: 31
v posisition : 30
Deepfield Imager: Off
Super resolution: Off
Sharpedge: Off
Video noise : Off
Brightness: 34
Contrast: 57
Color: 30
Tint: 31
Sharpness: 25
Gamma: 2.4
Red High: 1007
Green high: 1023
Blue High: 1023
Red Low: 10
Green Low: -2
Blue Low: 0
Blue Only: off
Red Adjust: 18,2,8
Green adjust: 0,26,15
Blue Adjust: 0,0,0
Magenta adjust: 12,11,10
Cyan Adjust: 0,8,11
Yellow adjust: 25,20,7
