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Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread (NEW FIRMWARE V1.1) - Page 17

post #481 of 1634
5/8/09 at 2:31am
Yesterday I've retrayed to adjust the colors ....
I've put the main control color slider on 0 and I've done all the corrections only using CMS.

At this time I've calibrate patterns@75% (not @100% like the other time) ... and NOW WORKS FINE!!

Minimal variations of Y and and identical CIE triangle @100%!

This test was made with the AVS HD-DVD test disc that do not have saturations full field patterns.
Tonight I'll bring my i1pro near the display surface and I'll use the windowed saturation test.

I'll report the results.

acta.
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post #482 of 1634
5/8/09 at 3:16am
on a slightly different topic, what values have people settled on for the two sharpening controls (sharpness / detail enhancement)?
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post #483 of 1634
5/8/09 at 4:51am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by deandob View Post

on a slightly different topic, what values have people settled on for the two sharpening controls (sharpness / detail enhancement)?

Different schools there... I personally have left them at defaults, because testing with patterns I could see some ringing almost immediately when sharpness is pushed higher than its default of 5, and weird artifacts when moving detail up from 0, also very quickly.

Others are big fans, and push details up to 30/35, and sharpness up to 15. Try with a resolution pattern (like the one on the AVS disk), and with real material, and keep what you like.

I personally could only see bad effects on the patterns, and couldn't see any real advantage with real footage (HD), so I left it to default.

Instead, I'm using the 3D DNR on my BD-50 when I'm playing slightly noisy material, and that helps a lot.
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post #484 of 1634
5/8/09 at 5:57am
Cine4home now has a review of HD750 with measured gamuts

http://www.cine4home.de/
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post #485 of 1634
5/8/09 at 6:28am
Quote:
Originally Posted by karrih View Post

Cine4home now has a review of HD750 with measured gamuts

http://www.cine4home.de/

Wow, another rave review.

JVC has been having an amazing run. A few years ago the HD1 seemed to turn the projection market on it's ear and the new HD750 is getting even more raves than the HD1, continually the top recommendation from reviewers.

With the new firmware the HD750/RS20 really seems to have fulfilled it's initial promise as giving almost everything (within practicality) someone could want in it's price range.
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post #486 of 1634
5/8/09 at 6:49am
Quote:
Originally Posted by karrih View Post

Cine4home now has a review of HD750 with measured gamuts

http://www.cine4home.de/

How do we read this review in english ?
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post #487 of 1634
5/8/09 at 7:09am
Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson4u View Post

How do we read this review in english ?

Try this.
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post #488 of 1634
5/8/09 at 7:09am
Regarding the differences in the I1pro and regular I1, are the differences manifested in gray scale calibration as well, or just CMS/gamut calibration. I'm now hesitant to use mine for the CMS but have this urge to load up the new firmware, recalibrate the gray scale and try some of the CMS settings. Jason had calibrated my projector but the gray scale has probably drifted by now and I don't know whether it would be better or worse to load up and calibrate myself. If I were still in the states, I would try to get a good calibrator to do his thing, but I don't have that luxury.
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post #489 of 1634
5/8/09 at 7:34am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

Regarding the differences in the I1pro and regular I1, are the differences manifested in gray scale calibration as well, or just CMS/gamut calibration. I'm now hesitant to use mine for the CMS but have this urge to load up the new firmware, recalibrate the gray scale and try some of the CMS settings. Jason had calibrated my projector but the gray scale has probably drifted by now and I don't know whether it would be better or worse to load up and calibrate myself. If I were still in the states, I would try to get a good calibrator to do his thing, but I don't have that luxury.


I can't say for sure because I have not directly compared but my grayscale numbers changed from two weeks ago when I installed the firmware and calibrated with the LT to yesterday when I adjusted grayscale with the PRO.
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post #490 of 1634
5/8/09 at 7:47am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Thanks for the kind words Chris, but I think it's probably more related to pure luck re unit to unit variation (both PJ and meters) than anything else, or they would work better for LG and Millerwill (and others HP owners) too, which I don't think is the case. LDVD has managed to get his settings where I'd like mine to be from an accuracy point of view. They don't work as well as mine on my own PJ either, but I'm sure they look absolutely amazing on his.

It will be interesting to get your feedback when I have adjusted my settings (hopefully this week-end) to my new screen material which has a slightly lower gain (1.2 vs 1.4). Maybe the new settings will be worse for you, despite the fact that they will, hopefully, be closer to rec709 in my setup (at least as seen by my lowly, cheap, unfit to the task, unpredictable and pathetic i1pro, which should really be called i1pro-in-your-dreams, or rather i1pro-has-been-but-isn't-anymore).

Manni, on some programs I actually like your settings the best! It's nice to have the 3 different CMS settings in User1, 2, and 3, since a single button push allows one to switch between them.
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post #491 of 1634
5/8/09 at 1:15pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deandob View Post

on a slightly different topic, what values have people settled on for the two sharpening controls (sharpness / detail enhancement)?

The 2 sharpness controls are in my view, almost a requirement to get the best pictures from the RS20. I use 35/35 as my starting point. The detail control adds a certain amount of apparent sharpness but it's greatest value is in adding texture to materials, small structures and faces. On films like Sweet Charity the "Hey big spender " number however is an example of where a gritty gualilty is added if the detail is set at 35 - and so I cut it to about 5 -10 and that quality goes away.

I have studied the behavior of these controls very carefully using DVE test patterns (the one showing the safe area -for setting the size of the image to fill the screen) and find that there is no "Ringing" added by the sharpness control (this control does not use analog filters) , It Will add 1 outline adjacent to each side of vertical lines which increases in intensity as you raise the level of the sharpness control, but at the right level these lines can not be seen from the viewing position, and because they are not surrounded by the usual ringing, the net result is a more realistic image than leaving the sharpness control off. ( I do not like outlined images or those exhibiting ringing.) All of the above assumes HD high quality BD images only.

I suggest looking at the fabulous images on Baraka a BD HD disk filmed in 70mm and with one of the best transfers ever made from film to HD - it took about 15 seconds to scan each individual frame with the highest resolution array ever used.
You will not see ringing or outlining at 35/35. And you will see no noise.

Try it.

KT
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post #492 of 1634
5/8/09 at 1:30pm
KT,

Interesting. That is a lot of sharpness/detail added. I use a larger (130" wide) screen so need to extract more sharpness than I would if I had a small screen. And I only use BD/HD DVD sources. How big is your screen?

I'll play around with this tonight with more aggressive setting but when I last checked this a while ago I could see some ringing when the sharpness was around 14, but only on test patterns.

I know Manni uses a smaller screen, which could explain why he does not need too much sharpness.
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post #493 of 1634
5/8/09 at 2:02pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Try this.

Thank you Lawguy !!
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post #494 of 1634
5/8/09 at 5:32pm
Are any of you close to Spokane Washington that can calibrate my new RS20. I live in Sandpoint Idaho about 70 miles away. My head is about to explode after reading all of this. I would be willing to pay travel expenses and your fee of course. Let me know and thanks. Kevin
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post #495 of 1634
5/8/09 at 10:09pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by deandob View Post

KT,

Interesting. That is a lot of sharpness/detail added. I use a larger (130" wide) screen so need to extract more sharpness than I would if I had a small screen. And I only use BD/HD DVD sources. How big is your screen?

I'll play around with this tonight with more aggressive setting but when I last checked this a while ago I could see some ringing when the sharpness was around 14, but only on test patterns.

I know Manni uses a smaller screen, which could explain why he does not need too much sharpness.

The size of your screen has absolutely nothing to do with the setting of the sharpness controls.
What 's important is the angle of view that falls on the retina from your viewing position (The usual recommendation is that the total included angle should be about 30-33 degrees).

So for any given sharpness setting that looks right -or works well for me at a viewing distance of 9 feet 6 inches ( my screen is 74 inch or 6 foot 2 inches wide) it would look exactly the same for a 12 foot 4 inch wide screen (about like what Chris Dallas likes) if I viewed the screen from a distance of 19 feet.

It is true that with my suggested settings - with test patterns -you will see some outlining of edges if you move close enough to the screen, however at the normal viewing distance - and with test patterns - I set the sharpness so that I can just barely see that outlining is just beginning to be visible. To verify it is high enough I can step forward a few feet and see what outlining is actually being applied. Let me try to make it clear -in effect, with the outlining I am suggesting - and from my normal viewing distance - I am not aware that I see the outlining when I look very carefully at the images ( from the best--truly outstanding film transfers like Baraka). If I suddenly set the sharpness to 0/0 the images become flat and almost out of focus--by comparison.

Image sharpness depends on a number of factors including what subjectively looks right for each individual. I think Manni prefers softer looking images than I do --which is fine. I try for images that give that "looking through a window " experience -- -- those that are more real looking than than the much poorer film images I see projected at the local theaters (- which are nowhere near as good as UMR's Arclight Cinema I am sure).
I hope this is of some help.

KT
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post #496 of 1634
5/8/09 at 10:23pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KTTV Images View Post

The size of your screen has absolutely nothing to do with the setting of the sharpness controls.
What 's important is the angle of view that falls on the retina from your viewing position (The usual recommendation is that the total included angle should be about 30-33 degrees).

So for any given sharpness setting that looks right -or works well for me at a viewing distance of 9 feet 6 inches ( my screen is 74 inch or 6 foot 2 inches wide) it would look exactly the same for a 12 foot 4 inch wide screen (about like what Chris Dallas likes) if I viewed the screen from a distance of 19 feet.

It is true that with my suggested settings - with test patterns -you will see some outlining of edges if you move close enough to the screen, however at the normal viewing distance - and with test patterns - I set the sharpness so that I can just barely see that outlining is just beginning to be visible. To verify it is high enough I can step forward a few feet and see what outlining is actually being applied. Let me try to make it clear -in effect, with the outlining I am suggesting - and from my normal viewing distance - I am not aware that I see the outlining when I look very carefully at the images ( from the best--truly outstanding film transfers like Baraka). If I suddenly set the sharpness to 0/0 the images become flat and almost out of focus--by comparison.

Image sharpness depends on a number of factors including what subjectively looks right for each individual. I think Manni prefers softer looking images than I do --which is fine. I try for images that give that "looking through a window " experience -- -- those that are more real looking than than the much poorer film images I see projected at the local theaters (- which are nowhere near as good as UMR's Arclight Cinema I am sure).
I hope this is of some help.

KT

Completely agree it's a matter of taste, although I do not prefer soft looking pictures, I like film-looking picture (when I watch a movie of course, and I rarely use the PJ for anything else), which is why I chose this PJ in the first place over sharper but more "digital" looking PJs. If there is film grain in the movie, it is usually the result of an artistic choice, especially today, so I prefer to keep it, and the JVC is great at displaying it. That's a different picture from HDTV. It's a completely different story if there is too much video noise due to a bad transfer, compression, etc... which is why I sometimes use 3D DNR, even on HD movies (I only watch SD when forced to these days).
Again, if I could see some improvements, I would definitely use the settings (I am not resisting because I'm a purist!), but as hard as I try (on my screen and with my eyes) I either see no real improvement or artifacts, which is why I stay on the default settings. I'll give it a try on Baraka and I'll let you know if it changes my mind.
By the way, for the record, the default setting is not 0/0 which is too soft. It's 5/0 (sharpness/detail).
One last thing, when I watch a movie with no grain/direct transfer, like an animation, say Cars/Ratatouille/Bolt/Kung Fu Panda etc, it's RAZOR SHARP with the default, which is why I feel confident the PJ gives as much detail as there is in the picture it displays, in a very sharp way, with no need for additional processing.
This being said, KT is not an exception, he may even be in the majority, and as we said it's completely subjective.
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post #497 of 1634
5/9/09 at 4:17am
After reading some of the above posts yesterday, I turned my sharpness and detail down last night (on my HD350) before watching a film. I'd had them on 30/15 and lowered them to 15/5, so still not default. I didn't find the image any less sharp than before and lots of facial details and small hairs (like on Linda Hamilton's arms in the BD of Terminator 2 for example) still came through. I figured it was the 'correct' thing to do if I'm not losing sharpness and may have been introducing artifacts.

I did use the DVE test patterns when I first got the PJ and didn't seem to find the same exagerated 'ringing' effect as I'd had with my previous AE3000 when adjusting the sharpness up from default, so I figured it was 'OK' to use a higher setting on the HD350. I also did a check to see how close I need to sit to spot the pixels and found I had to go to almost half my usual seating distance (approx 1.3 screen widths) at about 0.8 screen widths. At this distance I could just see the double edge when bringing up the sharpness, so I suppose that should be the 'tipping point' for me, or maybe I could go higher if I can't see the effect when in my usual seat? I just had an eye test last week BTW, so I know my (corrected) vision is pretty good. Whatever the setting, the focus on my particular example is a delight after the variable clarity of my old AE3000 (it was never 100% sharp on the left when the middle was in focus).

EDIT: Whoops, just realised this is the CMS thread (which of course I don't have on my HD350..), still the sharpness and detail settings are the same on both models anyway.
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post #498 of 1634
5/9/09 at 6:11am
I really broke in my i1Pro this morning.

I managed to get all colors, save blue, at dEs of under 2. Blue is very stubborn for me as it is very hard to influence its y. Did anyone else find this? Blue's dE is at 5.1.

These results track basically perfectly. I woudl love to revisit blue though.

In doing blue, I also plugged in lots of your numbers. Not only did they measure differently, they all look very different.

Here are my numbers:

r: 6,-30, 3
y: -6, -50, 33
g: -11, -47, 13
c: 40, -54, 29
b: 11, 8, -16
m: 8, -26, 10

I have not compared these to any of your settings but I wonder if there is any trend among them.
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post #499 of 1634
5/9/09 at 7:21am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

I really broke in my i1Pro this morning.

I managed to get all colors, save blue, at dEs of under 2. Blue is very stubborn for me as it is very hard to influence its y. Did anyone else find this? Blue's dE is at 5.1.

These results track basically perfectly. I woudl love to revisit blue though.

In doing blue, I also plugged in lots of your numbers. Not only did they measure differently, they all look very different.

Here are my numbers:

r: 6,-30, 3
y: -6, -50, 33
g: -11, -47, 13
c: 40, -54, 29
b: 11, 8, -16
m: 8, -26, 10

I have not compared these to any of your settings but I wonder if there is any trend among them.

Great news LG, I'll try your settings tonight as I have a calibration session planned and I'll report.

As you know I too found blue the most tricky color, but LDVD's results have given me hope.
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post #500 of 1634
5/9/09 at 7:30am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

I have not compared these to any of your settings but I wonder if there is any trend among them.

Having compared these to mine quickly, it looks like there is a consistent hue difference between your PJ and mine, almost as if there was a tint setting applied on one of them. 40 is a big hue change for cyan, you may want to try using saturation more than hue to get it right (that's the mistake I've made with blue on my present settings). You have also a very large use of saturation on magenta, I have noticed that magenta (at least on my unit) responds very little to saturation changes, so I've left it to the default and kept a small error, as it felt like a better compromise visually. I would double check (visually) that such a big saturation change doesn't afect that side of the gamut adversely for a very small improvement in dE.
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post #501 of 1634
5/9/09 at 7:43am
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Wow, another rave review.

JVC has been having an amazing run. A few years ago the HD1 seemed to turn the projection market on it's ear and the new HD750 is getting even more raves than the HD1, continually the top recommendation from reviewers.

With the new firmware the HD750/RS20 really seems to have fulfilled it's initial promise as giving almost everything (within practicality) someone could want in it's price range.

Wow, nice review. The RS20 deserves the rave reviews that it receives imho. Judging by the photos of the pixel grid, resolution and test patterns, the review sample was exceptional though. I think my RS20 has very good convergence and sharpness compared to others that I've seen, but it's not as good as the one in the review which looks on par with a 1-chip.

Edit: Just out of curiosity, does anyone else have an RS20 that is as well converged and as sharp as the one in the C4 review?
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post #502 of 1634
5/9/09 at 7:44am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Having compared these to mine quickly, it looks like there is a consistent hue difference between your PJ and mine, almost as if there was a tint setting applied on one of them. 40 is a big hue change for cyan, you may want to try using saturation more than hue to get it right (that's the mistake I've made with blue on my present settings). You have also a very large use of saturation on magenta, I have noticed that magenta (at least on my unit) responds very little to saturation changes, so I've left it to the default and kept a small error, as it felt like a better compromise visually. I would double check (visually) that such a big saturation change doesn't afect that side of the gamut adversely for a very small improvement in dE.

If I recall correctly, there was a hue difference that I had when using my LT. I am thinking that the screens that we use affect our settings.

I am very happy with the way things look! Color ramps have never looked this nice (and correct) and the test clips that I have used look the best that I have ever seen them.
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post #503 of 1634
5/9/09 at 9:46am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

...
Edit: Just out of curiosity, does anyone else have an RS20 that is as well converged and as sharp as the one in the C4 review?

MINE !!
But, as posted time ago, my dealer is a friend of mine, and we selected my unit among a group of 20th among them, there was only another unit with less best convergence but a bit better razor focus than mine !

At now, having seen about 35 units, still haven't found a killer combination of perfect convergence and perfect razor focus lens at the same time ...

Hope this help you
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post #504 of 1634
5/9/09 at 11:14am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Highlander_AVS View Post

MINE !!
But, as posted time ago, my dealer is a friend of mine, and we selected my unit among a group of 20th among them, there was only another unit with less best convergence but a bit better razor focus than mine !

At now, having seen about 35 units, still haven't found a killer combination of perfect convergence and perfect razor focus lens at the same time ...

Hope this help you

Want to sell it?
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post #505 of 1634
5/9/09 at 11:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark Petersen View Post

Want to sell it?

For shure ! (LOL)
But I don't want money ! I want a RS20 lampless ( LED or LASER .. by your choice) in exchange !
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post #506 of 1634
5/9/09 at 4:54pm
I've put LG's revised CMS values into my USER2 (Ldvd still in USER1 and Manni USER3). Boy, they all are very close. The most observable differences that I notice are the LG's blue is a bit darker, and red not as 'red'. Most of the time I think Ldvd's look the best, but at other times the others.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

I really broke in my i1Pro this morning.

I managed to get all colors, save blue, at dEs of under 2. Blue is very stubborn for me as it is very hard to influence its y. Did anyone else find this? Blue's dE is at 5.1.

These results track basically perfectly. I woudl love to revisit blue though.

In doing blue, I also plugged in lots of your numbers. Not only did they measure differently, they all look very different.

Here are my numbers:

r: 6,-30, 3
y: -6, -50, 33
g: -11, -47, 13
c: 40, -54, 29
b: 11, 8, -16
m: 8, -26, 10

I have not compared these to any of your settings but I wonder if there is any trend among them.
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post #507 of 1634
5/9/09 at 5:21pm
Whoever is responsible for the myth that calibrated colors are dull or lifeless should take a look at what I am seeing on my RS20.

I am really SO pleased with everthing about this projector right now. I am not saying that I am expert calibrator (far from it) but I know this is an accurate calibration. If you can't do this yourself, pay someone that you know is capable to do it for you. This calibration really took things to another level for me.
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post #508 of 1634
5/9/09 at 5:26pm
Thread Starter 
Right, I've had a bit of time to adjust my calibration to my new screen, and thanks to all the feedback I got I'm hoping they are a bit better.

x,y were very close, the biggest difference was on Y, which was slightly too low, which makes sense as the XD Centre Stage has a slightly lower gain than the Carada BW (1.2 vs 1.4).

Only exception, blue, and as a few have remarked, I would be tempted to believe it was pretty off (too dark).

Here are my new settings, which are extremely close to LDVD's. I used mine as a starting point, and ended up quite close to his, except for magenta. I started from scratch with blue and decided not to use any hue, as it had some bad effect visually. I chose to keep a slightly higher dE (around 4.5) instead of me$$ing with it. Otherwise all dEs at 3 or under (not as good as LDVD though!). dEs at 100% jump between 4.7 and 6.7, which is pretty good (slightly undersaturated).

HSB
R=-4 -22 6
Y=9 -45 38
G=-4 -44 35
C=-2 -51 43
B=0 -20 4
M=1 15 7

I calibrated with the i1pro at 75% stim, with a normal gamma, after having adjusted my greyscale with color temp only (still waiting for a new lamp). I selected a standard gamma curve at 2.4 after calibration (gives around 2.2). I was closer to D65 at 75%, but slightly worse at 100%. I'll fine-tune this when the new lamp will arrive.

Linearity is still very good, I'm attaching HCFR files at 75% and at 100% with saturations (Le Dahu, I couldn't measure sat at 75%, there is only on set of patterns on the AVCD DVD and I believe it's at 100% stim).

Please let me know if it's better or worse (especially those who like attempt 3), for me it's a bit better, but not that much, as I was already quite happy with my last settings, and only adjusted Y on all colors to fit new screen, and blue which was pretty off, so that's where most of the improvement lies.

If you have a high gain screen, these settings may be worse than the last ones.

If you have a neutral gain or low gain screen, they may be better.
LL
LL

 

4th attempt HCFR files.zip 12.216796875k . file
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post #509 of 1634
5/9/09 at 5:27pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lawguy View Post

Whoever is responsible for the myth that calibrated colors are dull or lifeless should take a look at what I am seeing on my RS20.

I am really SO pleased with everthing about this projector right now. I am not saying that I am expert calibrator (far from it) but I know this is an accurate calibration. If you can't do this yourself, pay someone that you know is capable to do it for you. This calibration really took things to another level for me.

Good to know you're happy with the new tool and the results LG!
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post #510 of 1634
5/9/09 at 5:40pm
Wow, Manni, a big change in Blue!

My observations, though, are still pretty much as earlier; probably just a diff in our pj's and screens (I have an HP).

I find Manni's CMS to give the reddest skins tones, LG's the palest, and Ldvd in between. But they are all VERY close! If you just look at one of them for a while, it seems totally natural. Only by switching between them do you notice small diff's.
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