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Official JVC RS20 / HD750 Calibration and CMS thread (NEW FIRMWARE V1.1) - Page 3

post #61 of 1634
4/28/09 at 2:54pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

This thread is a continuation of the original official RS20/hd750 calibration and CMS thread here http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...8#post15314888.


I have done a first attempt with the new firmware, and the news is mostly good!

- The range for the controls has been extended from -60 to 60 (instead of -30 to 30), which gives enough range to dial the gamut perfectly without touching the general color control. Well done JVC!

- The linearity is good but not perfect. Most colors stay where they should, but green seems to be a bit oversaturated at 75% when calibrating at 100%. Nothing compared to the first firmware, but still not perfect.

- I had onlytime for a quick calibration today, so I'll post more later. I attach my HCFR files for those who want to have a look at the details (EDIT: I used a brand new i1pro to calibrate).

If you want to try my settings (only after upgrading the firmware), here they are:

Contrast=0
Brightness=0
Color=0
Tint=0

Color temp (new lamp, probably not useful for most of you)
Gain R=-24, G=0, B=-54
Offset R=-1 G=-3 B=0

CMS (H,S,B)
Red -4 -23 7
Yellow 22 -44 38
Green -5 -39 44
Cyan -3 -48 39
Blue 37 -8 -4
Magenta -6 0 -3

I tried your settings after updating the firmware. The picture with your numbers input in User 1 is now clearly superior to the THX setting. The THX setting no longer looks good to me compared to your settings. I notice subtle color shades that I had not noticed before. I need to do a full calibration for my projector but this is a very positive.
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post #62 of 1634
4/28/09 at 2:55pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by KTTV Images View Post

As I understand it, you are reporting that all settings are lost.
It is reasonable that all settings will be lost when installing the new firmware, but I did not really ask the right question in my last post. This is what I meant to ask:
Based on your visual observations after installation of the new firmware and after resetting any original settings lost during the installation - are the original Calibrated Color Temp and Gamma performances you saw restored? This should be the case if the CMS firmware is a separate module from that for the Gamma firmware module and the Color Temperature Firmware module.

Since the Color Temperature and Gamma functions are related only to the Luminance behavior of the projector, I would expect theses functions would not be affected at all by changes to the Color Management System firmware.

The answer to these questions will determine if ALL previously calibrated work on the projectors is lost --or if any Gamma and Color Temperature Calibrations that have previously been done will still be effective once the original user settings are put back in.

Your findings and thoughts on this will be appreciated.

KT

I have a possible issue with a new lamp which prevents me from answering this positively, so hopefully someone else will do the test and will report.

In theory, I agree with you, greyscale and gamma shouldn't be affected by the new CMS (although there is no way to know what was exactly changed).

However, as you cannot save the work done on gamma (or it would be more time consuming than redoing it from scratch), the only possible rescue is color temp, and provided you have a meter, it's almost faster to redo it anyway as it will probably have drifted a bit since your last calibration with the lamp aging.

I understand that it is an issue for those who don't calibrate themselves, but otherwise I would recommend to start from scratch.

Frankly - if you've had your PJ professionally calibrated - I don't recommend to do the upgrade if you don't calibrate yourself or are not ready to get it calibrated again. You have more to lose than to win.
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post #63 of 1634
4/28/09 at 3:03pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bulldogger View Post

I tried your settings after updating the firmware. The picture with your numbers input in User 1 is now clearly superior to the THX setting. The THX setting no longer looks good to me compared to your settings. I notice subtle color shades that I had not noticed before. I need to do a full calibration for my projector but this is a very positive.

Good news, thanks for the feedback!

Let us know how you're tracking at 75% and 100% when you will have done your calibration.
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post #64 of 1634
4/28/09 at 3:07pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by lovingdvd View Post

Hi Manni - thanks for all the reports/updates. I was rather surprised to read the quote above based on Phil's review a couple weeks back. It seemed from Phil's review he put the CMS through some extensive testing, and I don't recall any such findings from him.

It will be interesting to hear your results when calibrating at 75%. I suspect the opposite may happen (on target at 75%, then somewhat undersaturated at 100%).

Unfortunately I am super busy with work and don't know when I'll get a chance to dig in, because I know it'll be an extensive exercise once I do.

It'is great to hear that the clipping issues are history and I look forward to reading more about your and others findings with the 75% vs 100% linearity tracking.

Also - I know you are aware of this and this was a very preliminary calibration just to get a feel for the new firmware, but I'd recommend dialing in your grayscale much flatter sooner than later. It wouldn't affect linearity but will affect the color tracking otherwise.

Hi LovingDVD, we can't wait for you to join the party!

Yes, very quick, basic work on the greyscale for now. I haven't touched gamma apart from a default 2.3. I want to clear this linearity thing. It may be related to my new lamp, I'm doing a few more tests before posting more results.
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post #65 of 1634
4/28/09 at 3:47pm
Now that the firmware is released, I can finally talk about how well the CMS now works.

My dE (CIELUV 76) results with the new CMS:

Standard\tRed\tGreen\tBlue\tYellow\tCyan\tMagenta
Rec.709 75%\t0.5\t0.8\t1.4\t0.5\t0.7\t1.2
Rec.709 100%\t1.3\t1.9\t2.3\t2.1\t1.5\t1.0
Rec.709 50%\t0.7\t1.1\t1.9\t1.2\t0.9\t2.9
SMPTE C 75%\t0.5\t0.3\t1\t1.5\t0.2\t1.5

I calibrated to Rec. 709 with the 75% window patterns from an AccuPel HDG-4000 and then checked linearity with 100% and 50% window patterns. This is excellent performance with negligible perceptible color errors in actual video images. I also did a SMPTE C calibration as shown in the last line of the table, which shows the CMS has adequate range now.

 

dE chart.pdf 19.484375k . file
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post #66 of 1634
4/28/09 at 3:57pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

Now that the firmware is released, I can finally talk about how well the CMS now works.

My results with the new MCS:

Standard Red Green Blue Yellow Cyan Magenta
Rec.709 75% 0.5 0.8 1.4 0.5 0.7 1.2
Rec.709 100% 1.3 1.9 2.3 2.1 1.5 1.0
Rec.709 50% 0.7 1.1 1.9 1.2 0.9 2.9
SMPTE C 75% 0.5 0.3 1 1.5 0.2 1.5

I calibrated to Rec. 709 with the 75% window patterns from an AccuPel HDG-4000 and then checked linearity with 100% and 50% window patterns. This is excellent performance with negligible perceptible color errors in actual video images. I also did a SMPTE C calibration as shown in the last line of the table, which shows the CMS has adequate range now.


Greg, please could you confirm your workflow to get your figures as I have read somewhere that JVC where recommending the secondaries to be adjusted first. Thanks.
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post #67 of 1634
4/28/09 at 4:33pm
Those are excellent results Greg. Thanks for sharing them with us.

So how long till we can expect a full review??
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post #68 of 1634
4/28/09 at 4:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

Now that the firmware is released, I can finally talk about how well the CMS now works.

My dE (CIELUV 76) results with the new CMS:

Standard Red Green Blue Yellow Cyan Magenta
Rec.709 75% 0.5 0.8 1.4 0.5 0.7 1.2
Rec.709 100% 1.3 1.9 2.3 2.1 1.5 1.0
Rec.709 50% 0.7 1.1 1.9 1.2 0.9 2.9
SMPTE C 75% 0.5 0.3 1 1.5 0.2 1.5

I calibrated to Rec. 709 with the 75% window patterns from an AccuPel HDG-4000 and then checked linearity with 100% and 50% window patterns. This is excellent performance with negligible perceptible color errors in actual video images. I also did a SMPTE C calibration as shown in the last line of the table, which shows the CMS has adequate range now.


You should see the smile on my face .
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post #69 of 1634
4/28/09 at 4:46pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by mrlittlejeans View Post

Those are excellent results Greg. Thanks for sharing them with us.

So how long till we can expect a full review??

It should be on line within a couple of weeks. I figured there was so much interest in the CMS that I've just been waiting until the firmware was publicly released to share those results with everyone. There's still plenty of other good stuff in the review.
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post #70 of 1634
4/28/09 at 4:53pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by 008 View Post

Greg, please could you confirm your workflow to get your figures as I have read somewhere that JVC where recommending the secondaries to be adjusted first. Thanks.

It makes no difference what order the primary and complementary colors are adjusted.
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post #71 of 1634
4/28/09 at 5:01pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

It makes no difference what order the primary and complementary colors are adjusted.

That was my impression as well. Your results are very encouraging Greg, I'm hoping the slight issue I see with green is related to my lamp which is new. I'm going to put my old lamp back in tomorrow and see if it makes a difference. I've tried everything else (rebooting, using the d2 instead of the i1pro) and I still have this slight oversaturation at 75%, only on green.
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post #72 of 1634
4/28/09 at 5:13pm
Greg,

Can you post all of your settings? Thanks!
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post #73 of 1634
4/28/09 at 5:31pm
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

It should be on line within a couple of weeks. I figured there was so much interest in the CMS that I've just been waiting until the firmware was publicly released to share those results with everyone. There's still plenty of other good stuff in the review.

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post #74 of 1634
4/28/09 at 10:57pm
Some may feel this is a dumb question, but I am new fairly new to calibration so please keep this in mind.

If I want to calibrate the CMS using the 75% patterns do I still Use the 100% white to start and then use the 75% color patterns, or do I use the 75% white to start and then use the 75% color patterns to calibrate ?
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post #75 of 1634
4/28/09 at 11:39pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson4u View Post

Some may feel this is a dumb question, but I am new fairly new to calibration so please keep this in mind.

If I want to calibrate the CMS using the 75% patterns do I still Use the 100% white to start and then use the 75% color patterns, or do I use the 75% white to start and then use the 75% color patterns to calibrate ?

Depends on the requirements of the software you use. If you use HCFR, you use 75% patterns only (including white). If you use Calman, it will ask you for 100% white in the end. The software should tell you what it expects. Also if you use the AVS HD 1.2 calibrating disc, all the patterns are available in the right order for both software. I don't know about other calibrating programs.
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post #76 of 1634
4/29/09 at 12:38am
Thank you Manni. As always you have been extremely helpful.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Manni01 View Post

Depends on the requirements of the software you use. If you use HCFR, you use 75% patterns only (including white). If you use Calman, it will ask you for 100% white in the end. The software should tell you what it expects. Also if you use the AVS HD 1.2 calibrating disc, all the patterns are available in the right order for both software. I don't know about other calibrating programs.
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post #77 of 1634
4/29/09 at 1:28am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by nelson4u View Post

Thank you Manni. As always you have been extremely helpful.

You're welcome. I'm just trying to give back a bit of what I learnt from the REAL experts here when I was in your situation a few months ago.

Let's call it level 1 support. When it needs to be escalated, they step in.
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post #78 of 1634
4/29/09 at 1:45am
How does the new CMS compare to the CMS of the Radiance? Is it better to use the Radiance or the JVC CMS?
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post #79 of 1634
4/29/09 at 2:18am
Quote:


Color temp (new lamp, probably not useful for most of you)
Gain R=-24, G=0, B=-54
Offset R=-1 G=-3 B=0

@Manni: I wonder why you lower the Red Channel in your greyscale settings? As I understand we should avoid to lower the Red channel because this would also lower the light output?

@All: Is calibration with 75% Colors the recommendad way? Could somebody explain why?

Thanks
Cheers
Shepardos
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post #80 of 1634
4/29/09 at 2:37am
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepardos View Post

......
@All: Is calibration in 75% Colors the recommendat way? Could somebody tell why?...

In Theory, if I must choose between a perfect calibration at 75% or 100% stimulus I will prefer to get perfect at 75%
Why ?? Because usually in matherial contents rarely can be found elements that match 100% stimulus
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post #81 of 1634
4/29/09 at 2:38am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shepardos View Post

@Manni: I wonder why you lower the Red Channel in your greyscale settings? As I understand we should avoid to lower the Red channel because this would also lower the light output?

@All: Is calibration with 75% Colors the recommendad way? Could somebody explain why?

Thanks
Cheers
Shepardos

This is only true if your PJ is red deficient. It's not my case.

Look at your greyscale before doing any correction. The color that's consistantly below the others is the one you shouldn't lower.
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post #82 of 1634
4/29/09 at 2:39am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

How does the new CMS compare to the CMS of the Radiance? Is it better to use the Radiance or the JVC CMS?

With the dE results posted by Greg above, why would anyone bother with an extra video processor like the Radiance? Any improvements to Greg's results would not be visible to the naked eye.

There was a calibrator posting in one of the RS20 threads a couple of months back making a good case for an external processor, but now with the CMS fixed there would be no benefit (in fact possibly detrimental as its another processing link in the video chain).

Greg can you post your settings? These should be reasonably transferable across machines, at least as a starting point for calibration and saving calibration time.
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post #83 of 1634
4/29/09 at 3:03am
@Manni: Thanks - I thought that RED should be unchanged;-) I will look on the grayscale before calibrating again.

BTW: you have a i1 LT and a i1pro. Is there a big difference when you compare this? If yes where I can expect difference?
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post #84 of 1634
4/29/09 at 4:23am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

How does the new CMS compare to the CMS of the Radiance? Is it better to use the Radiance or the JVC CMS?

They work much the same way and produce much the same results!
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post #85 of 1634
4/29/09 at 4:32am
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregr View Post

Now that the firmware is released, I can finally talk about how well the CMS now works.

My dE (CIELUV 76) results with the new CMS:

Standard Red Green Blue Yellow Cyan Magenta
Rec.709 75% 0.5 0.8 1.4 0.5 0.7 1.2
Rec.709 100% 1.3 1.9 2.3 2.1 1.5 1.0
Rec.709 50% 0.7 1.1 1.9 1.2 0.9 2.9
SMPTE C 75% 0.5 0.3 1 1.5 0.2 1.5

I calibrated to Rec. 709 with the 75% window patterns from an AccuPel HDG-4000 and then checked linearity with 100% and 50% window patterns. This is excellent performance with negligible perceptible color errors in actual video images. I also did a SMPTE C calibration as shown in the last line of the table, which shows the CMS has adequate range now.


I told myself that I wouldn't touch the thing until the weekend but I couldn't help myself.

My results were not quite as good as yours, but I only did a very quick calibration. I satisfied myself that (1) the controls work as expected (each control does what you expect it to do) (2) the controls have enough range (you have the ability to correct each color without resort to any trick), and (3) the calibration tracks well at different stimulus levels.

I know that the quality of my calibration is limited by my cheap i1 Display LT, but that is another story.

I am very much looking forward to your WSR review!
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post #86 of 1634
4/29/09 at 5:05am
Quote:
Originally Posted by deandob View Post

With the dE results posted by Greg above, why would anyone bother with an extra video processor like the Radiance? Any improvements to Greg's results would not be visible to the naked eye.

There was a calibrator posting in one of the RS20 threads a couple of months back making a good case for an external processor, but now with the CMS fixed there would be no benefit (in fact possibly detrimental as its another processing link in the video chain).

Greg can you post your settings? These should be reasonably transferable across machines, at least as a starting point for calibration and saving calibration time.

deandob -

1) I think your first question (bolded) is good.

2) I don't know that your second statement (bolded) is proven.
I am not a calibrator or very experienced, but to my naive eye, it doesn't seem like the CMS v1.1 has been proven to be perfect.
We have seen limited data from a few people. I certainly hope it is.
Also, the Lumagen devices may have some benefits besides CMS.

Here is the link to Craig Rounds (craigr, CIR Engineering) review of the JVC RS20 + Lumagen RadianceXE -- link.
Here is the AVS thread link where craigr posted the link and the commentary running after it -- link.

I look forward to peoples opinions and emerging data on this (especially since I have a RadianceXE and a calibration pending...)


Mike
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post #87 of 1634
4/29/09 at 5:17am
Quote:
Originally Posted by mhafner View Post

How does the new CMS compare to the CMS of the Radiance? Is it better to use the Radiance or the JVC CMS?

Jim Peterson of Lumagen had these comments. (Not surprisingly ):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post16265929
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post #88 of 1634
4/29/09 at 5:28am
I'll have a go at calibrating it myself tomorrow night or over the weekend with v1.1. I was able to get similar results to Mannie and lovingdvd with my DIY calibration attempts with v1.0 of firmware, and found the colors to be a little too oversaturated with some sources and also strange color effects at times (eg. orange lips).

If I can get the CIE graph looking pretty spot on with <3 dE variation for Rec709 consistent across 75% and 100% stimulus, as well as natural skin tones (where I find color anomolies show up), then I'll be happy in the knowledge that the CMS is sorted and will move onto something else like improving the motion judder. Can we get a firmware fix for that?
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post #89 of 1634
4/29/09 at 5:30am
Quote:
Originally Posted by R Harkness View Post

Jim Peterson of Lumagen had these comments. (Not surprisingly ):

http://www.avsforum.com/avs-vb/showt...9#post16265929

The fact that Radiance used as processor, if needed, has other useful features it's out of doubts

Indeed, and specially after Greg measures report, CMS side you're speculating !

What do you think we need more than what Greg achieved ??

Sorry, not agree with Jim, but he wrote this last April 14th when no one known how worked the JVC Fix !!
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post #90 of 1634
4/29/09 at 5:54am
I don`t get it. a radiance does an awful lot or very little depending on how you use it. To me it is indespensable. One of those features is a very fine CMS for those who have a display device without one. Now the RS20 CMS has been fixed. Something like the Radiance is no longer required to get the RS20 to display colors correctly. Great.

To a RS20 owner, one of the features of the Radiance is no longer needed. That`s the only thing that has changed.
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